Bitcoin and Beyond EP10: Programmable Native Bitcoin On Cosmos

Transcript

[Music] [Music] [Music] welcome back to bitcoin and Beyond today we have Robert from bitm to talk about some of the advancements that they're making in scaling Bitcoin welcome Robert hey yo

everyone welcome in sir um excited to learn more about what you guys are doing I would love to learn a bit more about yourself and your background and we can jump right in absolutely and yes uh we are cooking a great stuff so just to inro myself yeah I'm Robert I'm a lead developer in Cosmos ecosystem my background is commodity trading I was also working for six that's the swix exchange in the private private swis banking um yeah I did like a few startups and then since 2017 100% in um in blockchain I was like one of the co Coors of ethereum um early on algorand

and and yes now uh all in Cosmos one of us one of us well let's Dive Right In sir so yeah let me start so I guess not many people heard yet about bit but it's really like a new new thing hopefully it will be a hot thing uh in Cosmos and Beyond um so um let's let's kick it on uh I mean I put like here few words programmable native Bitcoin Bitcoin up chain and this is what we will drive here uh and this is how we uh how we differentiate ourselves from um uh other ecosystems so let me firstly start

talking about start by talking about the layer twos as we all know that you know Bitcoin uh has a smart contract and a language Bitcoin script and uh Bitcoin virtual machine it's very primitive yes you canot do many things it's not like a touring complete virtual machine like in any other modern blockchain however it's pretty powerful so it allows you to create layer tools however those layer tools are not the same as most of the people can think like from the engineering perspective especially with the boom of etherum layer TOS so I mean we love layer TOS we were talking about

you know all this um landscape since since plasma since um in ethereum right and then like the lightning like the whole payment channels it's part of the uh of the Bitcoin from the very very beginning is how we can scale those um Bitcoin transactions so um I want to clarify it here that uh Bitcoin Layer Two means Bitcoin aligned and this is very important because every single Bitcoin layer 2 doesn't inherit the security of uh of a Bitcoin as a layer one so normally if you hear uh okay we

are Bitcoin Layer Two it's not the same as um like what in E flant we think about as a layer to also maybe you know comment here that most of the ethereum layer to they have on the road map to be you know fully secure by but they're not there yet yeah so there is like a the concept of slashing mechanism and all of that stuff most of the cases is not implemented so yeah the traditional you know we have a layer two it doesn't have to be a blockchain it doesn't have to be uh um I mean it's basically like you know offchain stuff right so off the layer one um uh I I use here a DT meaning you know decentralized ler technology so we

have a concept of a Ledger yes we can we can transact that what it means yes we can transact um and uh with the with the Advent in and and a growing uh amount of projects in general in a different in the different ecosystem in the chains uh we see the same thing on a Bitcoin and actually Bitcoin is the very first one that will provide uh security secure level uh without compromising at any single step uh the security of the Bitcoin you have and that's crucial I I

would just push back on that a bit and uh and uh look forward to uh to understanding some of of uh of the Technologies here throughout this presentation but isn't there always trade-offs there's always some trade-off yes we can talk about those trade-offs later on but uh uh I mean the the the the core aspect here is is that I mean bitcom is not Layer Two maybe that's a tradeoff okay um but uh it's still like you know Bitcoin aligned so we can say like within this definition that okay bit is layer to that meaning it's Bitcoin aligned it's not Bitcoin layer so it's not layer to in the meaning of ethereum like we we don't inherit the

security however we don't compromise the security of the bit coin and any any and any native token this comes from the zero trust narrative yes um that was part of your previous of your previous uh episode with the wallet Network so a little bit of the spoil alert yes zero trust this is what we want to do okay so let's go on as I mentioned right like you know um um mean me Bitcoin aligned yes doesn't mean that actually it's good because the solution can be collusive collusive means that um the set of operators or notes can collude to steal the money or

create a transaction like a fraudulent transaction um uh other aspects like a Federated multis ETA so it's not decentralized enough or it's controlled like you know who and how can um actually operate chain so it's not decentralized there are aspects of decentralization right decentralized meaning that you know anyone can CH anyone has equal rights uh a Federated set yes there is always some control uh so it's a semi decentralized and the multi is very limited as we know uh many of them involve of those you know so-called Bitcoin layer tools they inv some complex locking mechanism

so um either for for for for what they want to do staking or um or a bridging um or they basically use a custody Bridge yeah so going back to the multi this locking mechanism is you know uh I will talk about it later but there are various really um exotic I would even say I don't want to say Innovative but Exotic Solutions how people are thinking about um using assets Bitcoin Assets in their so called layer TOS another aspect is the sequencer so or a block producer maybe that's a better word so um whenever we transact

is to create a transaction posted and um someone have to put that into The Ledger um usually it involves like in the let's say multi aspects usually involes centralized sequencer can be a Federated design uh um lightning nwork could be seen kind of like a fer open Federated but again it's you have a every every single point in the network is is a point of centralization so whenever there is a flow um and the flow is like some hot spots uh each of those hot nodes it's a um it's a point of

failure um but uh the general aspect of of of man layer to yes is that they have a sequencer this is also like in most of the etherum layer to they have a sequencer the sequencer normally is not able to create fraudin transaction but it's able to sensorship uh other Al other aspect uh security aspect is that uh sequencer can produce in fact wrong if the if the if a sequencer is the only entity being able to produce the blocks and we don't have a clear Val validation right so who's providing settlement who is providing the validity proofs then the user is like either have to watch or have some using have to use

some watchtowers to actually be sure that whatever the sequencer is producing um is correct because none of us wants to run the blockchain in the mobile this is only possible yes like to validate the state of the blockchain with very clever zero knowledge proofs right but um uh there's a difference yes between you know what the blockchain is in a decentralized man de centralized block the Bitcoin can produce and we can easily verify it on on a mobile and what the centralized sequencer can do because with the big aspect of the decentralization we have

let's say a million of the validators um signing off the validity of the of the chain of The Ledger with a centralized sequencer we have only one guy um attesting that so this is important because um uh while let's say there is a thousand or a million of really decentralized so meaning that they don't have things in common they don't have like really economical motivation to collude but they have a validation so they validate with a centralized sequence areas there is no incentivization in incentivization in the network yes to to provide a general

propos free validation services so we need to pay we need to have that watchtowers or other Solutions actually to validate um the state and this is what you cannot do in a mobile yes in the high performance networks Robert just briefly um when you say no Bitcoin settlement uh what exactly do you mean by that yeah so um with that you know traditional definition of a layer two meaning meaning meaning that you know layer one secures Layer Two usually it means that there is a validation mechanism provided by layer one to secure the layer two and the

validation mechanism once done yes provides the settlement okay the layer one validated it and the state is settled everything up to that point is settled so that provides finality um since Bitcoin um uh VM is is very limited it's not during complete but we want to in complete um execution environments then we cannot validate I mean mathematically this is not possible yes you can you cannot reduce something with

um bigger computational capability to something that has smaller computation capability in terms of you know what can be computed not the performance but what what can be computed this is mathematically not possible so Bitcoin cannot settle uh during complete transactions yes this has to be done either you know using a third party so you give up some trust or a custody yes um so yes so so those those sequencers those those mechanism Federate multi

designs if they are layer tools they they don't really inherit the security of a Bitcoin and also like no the slashing um in Cosmos with we talk about SE security meaning that you know one chain can secure other chain this is notably being implemented by the cosmos Hub right now where atom being one of the biggest um token by the by the uh market cap value market cap this can be used as staking uh for um for validators to also validate other chains that's one of the aspect of the Shar

security um there are multiple ways how the Shar security can be implemented layer is also kind of trying to provide Shar security to avss bitcoin cannot do it right so Bitcoin cannot Itself by itself is we um cannot provide shared security um there has to be uh there has to be a trade of C to dis solution or Federated design how how it works so this all of this like you know um okay and one more thing Bridge not to bridge with all of this layer to Solutions right I mean there's one

aspect of the security second aspect is token um you want to use tokens you want to use assets however as we know I mean everyone talks about the token uh the bridge is the biggest um security hotspot uh in general in every single ecosystem um because the problem is that know when you have a back in your system but you know you are enclaved you can Fork you can for you can roll back and say okay it's like okay we did it wrong here yes we mess it up let's take the previous

state um and let's uh let's roll back and fix it once you have a bridge you cannot do it you are not sovereign enough because now you're connected and the state is can be settled and um and your assets can be moved to other chains right so again if you're Layer Two or know side chain and then you use bridge I will Bridge tokens from Bitcoin which is very decentralized very secure to my layer two and then you know there is a back or an

attack uh and then there is a bridge so I can I can take an advantage and Bridge those token back or somewhere else this means that I cannot really uh roll back I cannot stop because now I would need to stop the whole ecosystem everything that is connected to the bridge and transitively to to to the chain connected with that bridge right because like usually what happens is that when you have an ATT guess I steal the money and then I then I know Bridge it to to other ecosystems is there not like dilemma yes yeah you're right that we have no existing solution to provide non-collusive insecure interoperability

and you know I assume that bit CM uh will potentially be suggested as such however is there not a a a solution that is you know a parent that has tradeoffs which are uh reasonable for developers and Builders uh of like the highest security standards like you know like what what if you had to choose right now to bridge or not to bridge or if you had to CH to yeah to make a choice as to how to build a a system um for for to be in stopper bille in the Bitcoin layer 2 space now obviously we're pre bit VM where P where

you know bit VM needs a CK verifier um you know is the option is just like a basically a multi- bridge is that like really it or like you know a custodio bridge there's nothing else that's like there's no like lock and mint even using a multi- or there's no like Intense or solver networks like it's just purely multi yeah absolutely so um I mean every bridge works the same way yes you you log the contract you log the tokens or assets on one side and then you mean on other side and then you control you know how do you how do you how do you clear clear the

balances all right so so that's how the bridge because you need to have a clear I mean accounting good accounting on one side and and accounting on the other side um um if there a central party like you know um who's responsible for meeting you actually don't need to lock so let's say if you have CCT cctp yes I believe this is the name of of circle who is issuing usdc so technically CC I mean the issuer itself can act as a bridge right so you don't need to um you don't need to to Lo lock unlock now you can basically burn and mint mint burn burn meat so

on uh but then you know you have again the risk because I mean you have a centralized party managing the usdc usdc is also under the scrutiny of um the US government and the and the the and related agencies so um uh there's a trust assumption uh every single bridge and every single Bridge related operator like Circle has a point either a point of centralization like the example of circle or collusion uh where you have a set of

operators that can collude to do something wrong of course like you know there is I mean there's a whole landscape right so mean in case of highly correlated multi operators that you know act in the same company then you have like all this risk that you know what what kind of a network zones do you have what kind of internal operations what kind of the walls you build inside the structure of the company that this doesn't go in the wrong hands it's because in the company you can have a Bad actors who may have some unprivileged get some unprivileged access to hack the bridge this is what

happened in fact already a few times um also I mean and then with a sufficient decentralization yes we agree with distribute the I mean distribute that risk get to the decentralized parties hopefully decentralized parties so the more decentralization you have the smaller risk for the bridge you have as well but there's always a risk and the bigger at the stake the the more incentive for an attacker or for the bridge itself yes it is to to operate wrong also think about like the team itself I mean there could be a back in the bridge in the code right that

can do or like a back door can um can operate like you know have that lock and unlock function in a way you want rather than in a way the network wants um and you cannot really control it as a user right like how many people are really in a decentralized way reviewing code of every single Bridge uh so you have a high performance I mean High trusted I mean bridge is built by communities by the centralized teams notably let's say IBC with a good level of scrutiny Audits and then you have other Bridges um I'm not like you know uh

Bridge auditor I was doing internal audits within IBC so I cannot say like you know what teams are building like what bridge but I can say for example like many of the new I was recently analyzing hyperlane it's a it's a it's a good technical solution is but it's rather centralized it's um it has many issues I'm not sure like many how many people reviewed and verified like the code right so um it's very easy like you know to to provide it since it's like act as Central centralized entity it's rather easy to to to update it in a way that um it will start behaving in unexpected way let's let's say this

way so but you know I mean we cannot close ourself we cannot just operate in a in an enclave so let's say we want to create that Bitcoin layer too but we cannot use any Bitcoin asset we cannot use Bitcoin itself so uh so so we need to have a way to operate I'm just want to say here with this slide is that actually bridge is wrong wrong idea like so not bridge and not having other solution is bad I mean it's not acceptable you you create your own chain your own enclave and you are not really Layer Two you are not layer I mean

you're your own layer one uh but you will be a death chain H Bridge itself like I said yes have many aspects of risk and then okay you can you can navigate around that um and the important part here is going back is that because Bitcoin is very limited the bridges you can have are also very limited so you cannot have um highly decentralized Bridges with Bitcoin Network that's the crucial point so uh now is the essence so with B we build with zero trust assumption no

Bridge uh use D wallet so um theall is can finally remove the cross chain risks the bridge risks and lead the web free to a future with secure multichain interoperability so we need to have the interoperability uh but you don't want to have a bridge especially with a Bitcoin because it's so limited and um here is basically the side list from from om who was also like um citing italic that the future is cross chain with inter we need to have interoperability so in Cross chain interoperability yes I call it interch

as well um but not um future with Bridges there no um multi multi-chain multi Bridge um world so at bit um is this ground we want to this ground breaking breaking DEET Network that allows you to remotely like operate MPC way non-collusive MPC way operate natively let's say as remote assets so assets not directly from your own

network and the way how it works is that again we we don't Bridge it so there is no Bridge so what is there I mean there is no Bridge what actually you do um and yeah the solution is that you uh you you trust yourself and um you have that NPC network uh that will allow you to to to transact with other chain but the key part here is that the network that that you know and the secret Source cannot Forge any transaction on your behalf Bridge can do it the wallet Network cannot do it and

also in contrast to any other NPC Network out there uh D Wallet requires your chart of the of the key as of transaction to actually do anything it cannot do it cannot operate your assets Without You initiating it and it's also like very decentralized like you know it can support thousands of validators uh Omar was talking about it I believe few days ago in previous episodes so um that's this is really the essence here I would say zero trust no Layer Two as in case of like as I mean as I said before four so so if

it's not Layer Two then what is this bit is layer one it's layer one meaning that you know we don't trade of the aspect of the centralization there is no single sequencer there is no Federated setup there is no multi-c there is no bridge this is just um battle tested tender me consensus based up chain using the cosos stack has the name Bitcoin aligned so that's that's the key here all right so uh uh since we are layer one then we are open to many Innovative Innovations

we can actually you know upgraded we are sovereign we are um uh we have a full aspect of of of uh of of the functionality of that we are not limited by Bitcoin itself but we can operate any native Bitcoin asset directly with a bit CM um chain That's Unique because we eliminate all the risks of the Native assets we eliminate all the risk of the bridges we provide programmability we provide um Innovation we can upgrade to you know whatever is best there is

within the opin world um and the only trade of here is that uh I mean like what are the security risk right here right so uh uh the the risk of the of of the remote assets are eliminated but you know you you can still have that okay like the bit custom Network can be compromised but at worst case yes it's only the the assets that are issued inside the bit custom Network yes add risks so it's a layer one but because U we are Bitcoin aligned We Believe believe that this will generate um a lot of interest from um from the biggest

community in the world and the biggest and the biggest asset in the world so we believe that um the security of the everything that is happening in the bit custum network will be comparable yes we can we can you know think about like um I think we can really GOP and senena with um with this idea the the native uh programmability and in and interoperability just to to double click on that because I think it's an important part of bit cosm and and the zero trust nature of the protocol you said that there is no

Bridge you're not moving Bitcoin from the Bitcoin L1 the Bitcoin Network to bitm and so if you're not moving assets via a bridge how do you achieve native interoperability yeah very good question so interoperability here means that you know you can use the assets from Bitcoin in fact also other networks everything that is connected with a d wallet Network and by the way there are already uh every week there is a new network well-known network uh joining the or inter um integrating with the dallet

network um so interoperability means that you know uh you can use the assets and program those assets um from from other chains uh so yes we don't bridge but you know you can create a smart contract uh you can create a native module that will do something with it that will support it okay so you're not say yeah please go ahead so let's say um if I want to do an order book right and and exchange The Exchange oh let's let's take a very simple example in fact you know um uh

peer-to-peer exchange so let's you know I give you one Bitcoin you give me whatever uh whatever else is there um I can do it with kind of you know like a Cash Time lock script in Bitcoin yeah so I need to have the time aspect because if you don't give me anything I can recover my funds um however if you give me something else we we can have this a transaction yes to secretly share um a pre-image of the hash to uh to allow you to access the funds um this is very limited and also not user friendly with bit C we can just

create a smart contract for that all right so then the D wallet will be transacted I can use the D wallet I can presign my transaction of the D wallet in the same way um uh as I would create a Bitcoin script but I don't need to do it I can just preite my transaction and have a set of a bitco u b smart contracts to to do all of that use cases so it can be train can be staking can be anything you want in fact like the most interesting one would be governance which I will just go right after that yeah so that it seems like uh and I

I see where you're going with governance as an application of this this interoperability um utilizing dallet Network are you passing messages between these chains and so you're pre-signing on one network you're passing a message to another Network in order to instruct the the transactions with assets on the destination Network and so you're not bridging assets or value but you're bridging messages and that's how you're able to accomplish native interoperability across Chains No no there's really no Bridge so um it's like really transferring the

wallet so like the the the D wallet provides that functionality that you know uh the control of of the assets of my wallet right uh can be pre-signed and then once other aspect so I I'm I'm triggering it I'm allowing to act on my wallet as a future transaction if other condition on a bit will happen and that other of the other condition yes could be that you know uh there is a match order um there is a governance proposal uh there is a

lottery um air drop whatever right so I precondition my dallet transaction uh with with something that will happen you know on on the bit custom chain they presented by a contract or a module yeah so there is no exchange of the messages I just so is it like transaction I create a future transaction that is waiting for a condition on the bit custom Network to happen and then is it a creation of a new wallet with the same user with the private key on like the other network

has access to that dallet account on that on the on the recipient Network so if you are transacting the wallet uh there is no need for I mean this is like also the magic of the of the D wallet network if you transact D wallets we don't need to incure bitcoin transaction if you want to spend so depending what's the trans what's what's the type of transaction if I just want to transfer the the the dallet network then uh the the dallet has a feature has to Rey the wallet and to assign a new owner uh so this doesn't require Bitcoin

transaction if I want to spend from my wallet so let's say the I pre-signed a spend transaction from the wallet and then this will require a Bitcoin transaction and how how does the bitm network or the dallet network know that a condition has been met on the other chain yeah so I mean I mean here we talk about the bit costom right so the conditions are on the bit so let's say if the if we talk about like a matching orders then this order book has to be in the bit right so let's say I want to combine

a a order book with Bitcoin and uh ethereum right uh and so an e to bitcoin order book and I want to and so the way that it would work is let's say I have Bitcoin and I want to trade for ethereum I could say I want to trade one Bitcoin for 50 ethereum and so if I pre-sign that transaction on the Bitcoin Network that that pre signature goes to bit cm and then if there is someone who does the same thing from ethereum and pre- signs a transaction they want to

send 50 ethereum for one Bitcoin they pre-sign and send the pre signature to the bitm network then bitm tells ethereum and tells Bitcoin to swap and completes completes the transaction on on ethereum and completes the transaction on bitcoin yeah so here what you would need to have is I mean the D wallets are um um so so the D wallets are okay yes they're non fible but the those are kind of the same entity have a d wallet representing your uh etherum account and

you have a d wallet representing um your Bitcoin your txos and then uh in a bit costum you can have a um uh a contract yes uh that will validate if you post two transactions two matching transactions uh that can that can settle so let's say if I'm preig my trans so let's say in the contract I said that okay that you know uh I can give away my ID wallet

only if there is a matching transaction that gives me um 50 if then bit so I presign it for that specific contract on bit then counterparty do the same for that specific contract on the bit um and then bit custom I mean bit custom approves and then the D wallet will execute it and and does dallet or bit cosm have its own validator set and its own nodes because you know you brought up cctp right and and for cctp We Trust Circle to to make the swap

between the two are we trusting bitm or dallet to to make the switch and orchestrate the swap um so yeah I it's a good question is what is the trust assumption here so um yeah there are few okay that's actually very very good question so here yes for um finalizing the whole swap We Trust bit that you know will approve that Swap and then we need to trust so we have to trust I mean two conditions must to happen bit has to approve so four conditions have to happen first I need

to initiate it second counterparty has to initiate it third bit CM has to match it and lastly the wallet uh has to settle it and does the settlement go on only dallet or does it go on or it goes on bitcoin it goes on E resettled the wallet only okay okay um and so so if any of it if any of it is frand nothing will happen and everything is like I mean in order in order there like to to

um uh do something wrong I mean okay what could what could go wrong so bit could fork and change the aspect of the contract so let's say if the contract says that you know I exchange one dallet dallet with one Bitcoin to a dallet with 50 if now we will fork and then um I mean we pre signed but we then then the bit will fork and you know someone will change the aspect of the contract to match one let's say 30 or no one to

one uh then if those transactions are PR signed no actually what will have to happen is that you know I will presign uh then the bit c will need to fork change the aspect of the of the of the contract and then uh the counterparty will provide a transaction yes matching the update data contract but wouldn't it just kind of come down to social consensus in this case I guess is almost like a worst case scenario like like would there not be like an intervention between like the community and the team and um be able to like do a reorder to kind like wi wind

things back so normally yes I mean no this is a layer one a cosmos layer one right so I mean in order to to actually make that happen um more than 66 of% of the validators would need to reor the chain right and then um uh and then again right like you know if if user is um seeing that this H is happening right you can cancel his transaction you know can create a new transaction to actually overtake the previous transaction and

um and R key to let's say new new set of keys new address so do are are okay so if it's a cosmos layer one and there's validators we we want like when we started we want a non-collusive uh Network to inherit the security of Bitcoin but do we inherit the security of Bitcoin if we have to trust the validators of another Cosmos L1 yeah a good question so uh not really because user have to approve all the time the network itself cannot do

anything with the with the D wallets which is you know this no uh representation of the Native assets without user consent so even even if the network collude the worst case they can do the worst thing they can do they can change an aspect of a deployed contract and if a user already pre-signed the transaction to uh to provide a custody of his wallet the network yes only then um um

his FS are at risk now contrast it with a bridge if I um if I bridge to other network my tokens to other network and then the other network will Fork to reassign the tokens to someone el else account then out of luck here in bitco we don't have that risk the only risk is you know when you when you spend your to tokens or your D wallet to a protocol so let's say okay let me give you another example maybe this will clarify okay um I think maybe with

etherum that will be more clear you have your if in you know in your account let's say you have 10 if in order to for someone to to um to get an access to your if is like either you know they will get in the possession of your wallet or they will successfully Fork the ethereum as a chain to reassign or spend from your account correct so both are unlikely yeah that's correct if the eth is just sitting in my wallet but if I'm

ex exactly okay however if you if you stake your if in some defi protocol mhm then you're at the risk that that def protocol doesn't have a back and also that you know that like the chain won't create a fren Fork correct and here is the same in bit but in ethereum it only works with the native asset so anything that is work for ethereum because and a bridged asset has the bridge risk in b c we don't have a bridge risk so any asset that is you know operating with a d wallet has no risk zero trust however if I stake my my

native asset in a contract on a bit then of course right I'm uh uh I'm giving my access to the protocol itself to the one I'm sticking with so so bitm completely upus skates away this bridge risk and then exactly so we elimin with no Bridge while we up provide interoperability with the assets so you can still use can use your asset to stake in the in the defi protocols I can still use the assets for trading but I

don't have to bridge right so uh so it's as a native asset let's say the Bitcoin the if yes is has the same security as as Bitcoin the if is has the same security as if there is no additional Bridge risk while I can use it within the bitum contracts and of course like you know if I use it in a bit contract then I inter the the risk of the contract itself so uh okay so so so so so this is like you know this this clear value proposition unique value

proposition U the risk is significantly reduced um user experience is good uh we we provide this you know interoperability and another interesting aspect is IBC Gateway now I can use my D wallet converted to an IBC token and then operate as IBC any IBC token in the in the in the in the IBC Network and then I can I can convert my bitco Bitcoin to IBC token send it to osmosis trade it in oses send it tobra to um to do the you know privac PR

private mixing I can um deposit in Umi to uh to to get a Leverage I can uh I can liquid staking I can do whatever I want of course when I when when I convert to IBC then again I give away the access of the Native asset to the protocol so then I inherit the protocol risk or a bridge risk here in case of IBC yes I inate IBC risk arguably IBC risk it's much smaller than most of the other existing Bridges but the point is that you know it unlocks a really interesting

um features uh in what I can do with with my assets right so now in the Bitcoin you cannot IBC it you would need to bridge it and then with with bridging you have a different you have a different token right um here bit c will allow it allow you to create a native IPC token s uh sorry it won't be native like I mean the IBC token of of the D wallet and use it in the IBC world all right let's go next um we can go back to those questions but let me

rephrase it it's very important unique value proposition the very first no Bridge protocol do provides interoperability uh programmability um for zero trust of um operating with within the native Native assets plus IBC Gateway so programmability we talked about it we want to start with CM as you know the uh go to a platform in in the cosmos land uh notably more secure uh than

solidity and we already work with and research how we can integrate um mm or evm uh arguably as if ifm ecosystem is the biggest one uh and we don't want to deny it um and now the the second in my opinion biggest unique value proposition is sovereignty in Bitcoin I mean the the way how I mean how we operate as a civilization okay we every organization has a level of governance every Financial

organization has some governance we have agencies uh every human organiz as a humans is we we organize ourselves there are contracts being the marriage being the family right like you know parents have responsibilities for Kids U if they do something wrong to those kids they can go to a jail um marriage the same right when you divorce you need to you need to settle um friends you know in the club you have you have a governance uh you have collectives companies Enterprises everything I mean this is

how howel our civilization is built if you want Bitcoin to be you know the digital Foundation of how we transact then we need to provide those governance Unfortunately today there is no solution with a native Bitcoin for a governance and since bat is the very first and the only SST system that allows to interoperate with a native assets yes it will be also the we have a unique position to also provide um governance mechanisms and you

want to have like a governance mechanism with many verticals so that the chain governance the uh the hold hour structures but also ecosystem funding creating uh Regional development so to create kind of like a I call it Grassroots so we want to set up Grassroots DS create sub dos to actually grow the ecosystem enable Bitcoin Bitcoin and Beyond Bitcoin in fact as we can talk here about any other chain that has this limited capability to actually Build That civilization use it Unleash the Power of uh what we need to uh to create those

digital collectives uh so we can have like the the very first Dow powered by native Bitcoin we can have Foster Innovation uh manage commment build awareness actually build the communities and found the communities in in with a zero trust uh Paradigm all of it can be really done with a zero trust Paradigm the first time in um in the world you can use Bitcoin zero trust to create governance and this in fact I found the circle like very inspiring because you

know you you best perform when you do what do you love to do right uh and when what you're best at you know if you like coding but someone ask you to sing a song and you're know rabbish and singing then the outcut might not be the best one you always want to get paid for right and and like I said there's always organizational aspect alone you I mean one plus one is free so um so so so so this is like really allows us to grow so with that we have that uh growth Flyway enable Founders developers users

Market recognition financing um very very important to uh um to to to build ecosystems and civilizations uh Define we talk I mean every single chain talks about no every single a to talks about the defi right okay we enable defi we provide defi Solutions so why not I mean uh if we will have native Bitcoin if you will have governance our def will be stronger than def of any other competitor so how does we stand out so we have like multiple competitors of course uh lighning rsk root stock infrastructure

framework nervos stack Satoshi vvm Marlin chain poonix each of them have like big complexity they hide many risks behind their complexity or some you know inent limitations or basically are just a side chain um not really secure I want to quickly talk about only about the lightning Network here because lightning is very unique we talk about lightning from very beginning payment channels are are are like you know you can say know Bitcoin native the payment Channel don't inherit their risk only the two-party risk however this is payment Channel lighting

networks um actually exponentially increase the risk because it's not only peer-to-peer right it's like any single note that operates in this on that on the network provides a risk to you as a customer because now if you want to operate within the lightning Network it's not only peer to-peer not anymore peer-to-peer but intermediary notes and those intermediary notes can go down um there is a dispute resolution um that can can can be triggered by uh any of those intermediary nodes uh the true put is limited to the trut of the network I mean the volume right so you know you need to

have a deposit so let's say if if the routing from me to Andy goes through Robbie and I want to send 10 Bitcoin to Andy but Robbie only deposit one Bitcoin then the network can only support one Bitcoin transaction one way and that's it yeah for another Bitcoin I need to find another path another route um there are many integrated risk for that I really recommend anyone reading about uh about risk of lightning Network because like the payment channel is really cool technology but unfortunately it's only paid peer-to-peer between two parties it's it's very secure it's very

nice not maybe the best user friendly doesn't have the best best user friendly uh aspect but but it's very secure liing networks at lot of third party risk so yes with have that we built the community centered layer to bitcoin upaint thank you uh thank you so much for for coming on um it was a very inspiring talk I think because it's so unique you know you guys are attempting to solve a very hard problem and so some of these ideas are very bold and uh it

it does take quite some mental bandwidth to wrap our wrap our uh Minds around these ideas uh I think because they uh you know they're they're potentially very very revolutionary um that's why it takes considerable thought to really understand uh understand the inner workings of this so thank you so much for for coming on and sharing and uh yeah very very excited to see bitm as well as dallet integrate into all these layer ones and layer twos and ultimately provide a uh a native solution for mitigating Bridge risks appreciate it yeah absolutely my my pleasure to to to talk about bit uh bit and

hopefully um we will have a more and more interest uh and yeah any questions please please reach out to us um yeah I should prepar some you know like a follow-up links maybe we can add later to them um yes in in the description the notes yeah thank you Robert it it's been a pleasure and uh excited to see where bit cosm goes over the coming years as well as scaling Bitcoin as a whole yeah let's build together that's right let's do it the name of Satoshi sir cheers thank you thank you