Bankless 🤝 Daily Gwei Friday Livestream! (DC INVESTOR EDITION)

Transcript

all right guys what's up sorry about everyone in the uh in the youtube comments and waiting for uh waiting for us to get live here it had some troubles with the stream and i'm still having a little bit of troubles because now the formatting is weird but we're here the audio's working and now everyone's faces are all on the screen a little bit of a rough strike start uh with this weekly live stream but we are here finally uh so thanks everyone who was waiting for us anthony and dc what's up guys what's up man triple rock dust triple rug just as many points as ether has assets i have rugs for you guys in the stream today that is what is up so we're doing this live stream uh a day early because tomorrow i'm going to

vegas to put all of my ether on black so i will not be here to do the live stream tomorrow so that's why we're doing it a day early and we decided to bring dc along just for the fun of it and so here we are glad to be here guys thanks for having me of course are you putting one eighth on black david i said all of my eo yeah so want it i wouldn't recommend that you can always just play ether role if that's your plan [Laughter] what do you what do you guys want to talk about today um i have i have one thing on the agenda that i want to talk about what you said there was no gender and you've you've made an agenda that's mental mental for rugs secret agenda the the thing that i would like to talk

about but the agenda is still up for debate is the flipping i'd like to have that be on the map oh god oh god the f word stay out again that's the time that's the top people are going to reference this video and they're going to say that was the top of the 8th btc ratio and now we're going back to 0.03 what have i gotten myself into guys you could be part of top calling history here we have the curse in me here and then we have david calling for the flipping that's right oh don't you well i mean i'm not calling for it like tomorrow but i mean it's happening sometime we can we can talk about it we can i guess we can talk about how there are people that i never thought in my life would be saying that the flipping is

gonna happen saying it uh and for those i guess who aren't aware of what i'm referencing there was a podcast the other day that uh suzu uh kobe and hasu did together on uncommon core if you haven't listened to that yet i highly recommend going and listening to it because it's absolutely wild but essentially it was like the book is faith given by kirby or crypto cobain basically a guy that's been around for i think since 2011 2012 in the crypto ecosystem and he basically is known as like the father of crypto twitter but outside of that it was wild hearing them say how bullish they were on 8th and specifically i guess like kobe since i'm pretty sure he was a bitcoiner for a long time you know the last few months i

saw him get more involved with eth but he was saying that so two key things he said was that it's the first time since 2012 he's owned no bitcoin because he's basically all in on eve and he also said he believes in the flipping now he did say he expects it to be like a temporary thing the first time around and you know you have a lot of volatility around there and blow off tops and all that sort of stuff but him saying that i was like what like is this is this real life i mean like this is absolutely insane and then you know just a few months ago hazu and and sue were both pretty bearish on eighth i remember later last year they were bearish on eighth and i was i remember a twitter thread that i was in with them saying you know i don't know how you

guys can be bear if you have one five five nine coming and you know the merge and stuff and now that's part of their bull case for eath and why they're so heavy eve uh so that was just wild but i mean yeah i i guess like i spoke to you guys briefly about it after and said that you should go listen to it did you end up listening to it dc i did definitely i did i yeah i listened to it and i thought it was a pretty interesting perspective from um three three very knowledgeable participants in the space who have a different perspective from guys like us in a lot of ways and you know i would liken the current overall climate that we're feeling right now it reminds me a lot of like january 2020 as people started to like come back

around to ether and started to realize oh wow there's all this stuff that's starting to happen in d5 and that kind of kicked off a whole epic round of activity so i feel like we're we might be on the verge of that again as people start to really digest everything that ethereum has accomplished and i think there's a couple of things for that in my mind the first is really um eip1559 first of all the people who didn't think it was going to happen now realize it is going to happen it has a date which is when is it it's like mid-july whatever i should know yeah july 14th i know it's the french independence day the future of france the d5 meme for those who may or may not be aware so i think that's huge so so one people who

didn't think that were that was going to happen now realize it is going to happen but also a lot of other people have now been exposed to what that means not having really understood it before understanding what it means for ether supply and how it turns into this deflationary asset that is huge i think also secondarily and this is going to become more important frankly is that proof of stake people are now starting to realize that the pos merge could be happening like within the next year within within 2020 even possibly is in the cards which is incredible and i do want to share that i was on the merge call this morning and we're talking about the merge and the teams are already playing around with having the clients interoperate and talk to one another which is a huge step forward so the next step is part of this

ryanism effort that's going on and you can go to ryanism.io r a i thanks david yeah it's hard to spell when you're saying it but you can learn about that initiative there but that's going to involve test nets of these clients actually working together at scale so that's pretty exciting yeah i mean the the funny thing is is that uh ethereum has this thing and it has had it for the last few years where the haters will always move the goal posts right always no matter what ethereum does the world will be moved yeah exactly because as soon as we deliver what we're saying that we want we're going to be delivering for you know i

know it's taken a while to deliver a proof of stake but we delivered it then people switched it from ethereum would never shoot proof of stake to oh it's not real it's not really done right because you still have eth1 and eth2 it's it's a separate network and then it's like okay well yeah but like why does that matter like it's not like we've said oh we're gonna have two separate networks and that and the merge isn't gonna go through um and i think that he still plays a big part in how people view ethereum is that they listen to these people that are just putting out whether it be misinformation or disinformation um but they're just putting this out and then the merge happens and then they're going to be like what the hell and i think as time goes on there's diminishing returns to

that um misinformation where there's only so many times you can be lied to and then the truth really is in the code and in in is in the in the product so i think that a lot of people have been lied to for a very long time and they've just gotten to the point now where they're like well i mean you guys were just all bought like the specifically the btc maxis you know you guys were full of [ __ ] for years right ethereum grew it became you know it became huge and it's still growing and it's it's it's been accepted by like you know as all these people and they keep shipping and people just stop listening i think i think that's what we're seeing happen uh specifically over the last few months for sure and they're especially triggered to stop listening by a monumental rise in eth

price right like if if if ether the asset follows the the narrative of the ether people who turned out to be right and not following the narrative of the bitcoin people up talking about how ether is going to trend to zero how ethereum is going to self-destruct due to centralization blah blah blah like well none of that's happening in fact it's all the other things that are happening and the prices following that fundamentals and and anthony when you and i are usually doing these live streams we're usually just like harping on 2018 2019 just like history of like twitter crypto twitter dynamics which a lot of newbies just aren't familiar with and also with a lot of in big institutions it doesn't matter with new institutions coming into

into the space right now they are coming in with a blank slate perspective on things and i think we can extrapolate institutions readiness to appreciate defy tokens and extrapolate that into ether the asset and ethereum the asset because of what nasim tuleb says that bitcoin doesn't have cash flows but ether has cash flows right like there are just more fundamentals that are true about ethereum that are more resonant with what large-scale institutions are know to be financial assets and i i see similar tailwinds behind defy tokens as i'm i'm hoping i'm seeing in institutional adoption of ether as an asset mm-hmm yeah we'll go dc i was just gonna say i think

we're definitely seeing some um institutional fomo starting to be realized now and i think for a lot of us we kind of expected that this day would come at some point because because there because the number of institutions that were underweight ether was just incredible it was all of them all of them basically you know and their fund managers were bragging about it in some cases and now you have um you know on that podcast that anthony mentioned suzu disclosed that uh three era's capital may be one of the largest ether holders in the world and they don't really have a plan to exit immediately they're just trying to figure out what this means and i think what was even more telling from that discussion was also the discussion around the bitcoin dynamic so i know kobe has one point of

view suzu had kind of another point of view where if bitcoin does lose that dominance as the number one currency does that somehow damage its brand and for me i'll just say that look i don't really have a strong point of view on that and i'm not really that focused on like what bitcoin does i'm more focused on the long-term arc of the adoption of ether and it's just more clear than ever how this how this all comes together how this asset becomes something that's desirable and is held by a lot of people and entities yeah and you know there was another thing that came out during the week as well from a guy called squish crypto on twitter so this uh 79 page report uh about um that that he's calling it the triple halving right which is essentially the merge

when each uh issuance drops about 90 from where it is today which is you know obviously a lot um but this was an amazingly bullish report i mean there's a one pager as well but uh read the 79 page report i'm slowly getting through it it's dense but uh there's a lot in there to be bullish about but there was a tagline in that report that said uh plea to ethereums to dream bigger dreams and i'm like okay because he gave like i think he gave a price prediction of 150 000 within 18 months and i'm like okay 20 23. yeah yeah i'm like okay i mean i i believe in 100 000.

like that's a good that's a bit quickly my dude but anthony of all people is ready to increase his price targets but even anthony is getting a little bit uncomfortable with that one yeah yeah exactly and and i actually really resonated with with him saying you know dream bigger dreams because you know when we when we think about stuff like the flipping it's like okay cool we flipped bitcoin but like is that really anything to celebrate i mean bitcoin's a trillion dollar market cap each total addressable market and what we're going for is all financial assets every like the entire financial system so we should really be dreaming much bigger than just flipping bitcoin and dreaming about that you know one day each being worth or the ethereum network being worth 100 trillion dollars or something right as a network because it's powering the entire

financial system so yeah i mean that that just that lines just stuck with me like really i didn't i didn't you know i didn't realize until until recently i was just like you know i wasn't i wasn't dreaming big enough i was still kind of like you know me of all people i was still uh uh stuck in the crypto echo chamber um where what we're building goes way beyond that i think it's uh the right time to also interject that eric connor finally started dreaming bigger dreams it took him a while but he finally raised his price target from 2500 the low low price of 2500 to 15 590 dollars um i wonder how he came up with that number um i think there is value though like

sometimes we get stuck inside of the crypto space and stuck inside of crypto twitter and we're like oh yeah we need to flip in bitcoin and you're right anthony that that isn't really the only thing that we should aspire to but it is kind of a metric like the eth btc ratio to me it's a metric of how much does this industry make sense right and like if the btc ratio of ether is one fifth the market cap of of bitcoin then roughly as a proxy this industry is only making 20 coherent sense right like there and not to say that bitcoin is not valuable but there are more things that are more valuable and the industry really is having a hard time figuring out what's valuable right is xrp valuable is

cardano valuable like i don't really know we know ether is valuable how much we don't know um but when ethereum the fundament the price of ethereum starts to reflect the fundamentals of ethereum and leave all of the [ __ ] [ __ ] behind we can finally start to like say that this industry is actually maturing because fundamentals are finally driving the prices and when fundamentals finally drive prices that's when we expect like you know the the flipping to actually occur right it's not just let's tear down the bitcoiners let's tear down bitcoin it's like oh finally fundamentals matter in an industry where fundamentals have literally never mattered before yeah i mean my take on that is that so bitcoin

bitcoin has a great meme in its whole hard cap supply it's it's easy for newcomers to understand and i always say with the theory of memes are like optional for bitcoin they're required because without that meme without that shared belief and expectation bitcoin doesn't have necessarily a lot you can still do the censorship resistance sends and so on um and it can still be a censorship resistance store of value but you can't but but that that kind of caps what you can achieve to what gold delivers today and i think what's the gold market cap it's something probably around 10 trillion it's probably gone up a little bit eight eight trillion i think yeah eight trillion okay so we'll say it's like eight to ten trillion and so i think ether at like let's say a hundred thousand dollars starts to get at that

amount right and so that's the number that i picked like long term i think we're going to be 100k plus because i think that the economic value that ethereum creates is going to be greater than what gold provides because as a programmable store of value as the censorship-resistant collateral that's usable for a lot of different things in d5 i think that that kind of value will eventually emerge i think what's different about ethereum versus bitcoin is the ascent the price ascent tends to match with the delivery of actual capabilities and the use of the asset and is not as like memetically driven however i think with the ip1559 and actually proof of stake we're now going to have a very powerful memetic engine with ultrasound money that's going to drive

ether in a way that has driven bitcoin in the past so honestly i could see this cycle getting very out of hand and very crazy to be honest we don't want ether to like ether is not going to a hundred thousand dollars like this year or next year it can't things can't go that fast it could go there it probably perhaps it will oh anthony man but like i'm not skeptical i just like this industry is just insane and like i don't know and i'm not saying it can i'm just saying like the chances with this industry is always higher than you think it is yeah but if i mean if if ether hit a hundred thousand dollars in in 2021 it wouldn't be sustainable

yeah we have to approach it peacefully slowly cautiously we can't just eat there like ether is not going to a hundred thousand dollars this year if we just yate that we're going to gate back down right exactly exactly right like and that's why like a 2023-2024 time frame starts to be more reasonable but i do i just say i do think that i do think a 10 trillion dollar crypto market cap is possible this cycle i'm not saying it's going to happen but like if things continue and get parabolic that is definitely achievable which would be huge and ether would likely be a big part of that yeah i i think so um but it's just it's always hard to tell and you know things

can change in i guess uh in a number of ways especially in the macro sense as well like if the macro looks weak and very weak then crypto might be on poor sort of thing like you know crypto is big enough now that it's affected by macro kind of um you know movements and stuff like that so yeah but i did want to go back to one point about um what he was saying dc how they were saying on that podcast like what does this mean for bitcoin if ethereum flips it and i have a very strong opinion on this i think bitcoin really becomes worthless at that point because bitcoin's uh worth comes from its high value it's not you know it being number one it being this thing that none of the other crypto assets can have and that being the highest market

cap that is a big part of its value it's a big part of its mimetic engine as you like to call it um and it's it's it's a big part of what makes people believe in bitcoin because they think to themselves well bitcoin's the king bitcoin can never be dethroned i'm always going to take profits bitcoin right and holding bitcoin just a nice comfy thing to do well what happens when bitcoin's number two on coin market cap and coin gecko like actually seeing bitcoin at number two would would psychologically screw with a lot of people i think because at that point you're just like okay well i thought bitcoin was the king like all these people were telling me that i should just stay in bitcoin i you just take profits to bitcoin but if i look at eth and look what it's done against

bitcoin since you know the bear market it's just greatly outperformed it um you know from bottom to flipping is about a 10x on the ratio so if you had held eight instead of bitcoin by the flipping you would have outperformed by 10x um and in my mind ethy's just as safe to hold as as bitcoin is um you know i actually think bitcoin might be riskier to hold because of the fact that eth can flip it um so i just at that point i'm just like well what's last bitcoin from ghana number three or number four on number five right what's what what keeps the value in bitcoin at that point there's no more arguments about it being king you can't say that anymore you can't say that the market value is values at the highest you can't say that it's the only asset worth or anything and everything

else is a [ __ ] coin all of your arguments break down and you know you can lie to yourself as much as you want but the reality is always going to be staring you in the face every time you go to one of these coin tracking sites the reality is going to hit you bitcoin is not number one anymore so that's that's why i have a very strong opinion that bitcoin needs to remain number one the bitcoin maximalists know this right and they know that if it loses that number one spot then a massive chunk of that value is going to go with it i think i think my favorite bit of maxi cope logic is i i this circulated i think less than a year ago where like nothing the max the logic was that like nothing can dethrone bitcoin because if something can dethrone bitcoin then

something else can just dethrone that thing and i was like no that's not how it works that's only true for bitcoin if bitcoin gets dethroned then that means that it's not holy it's not like destined to be the number one there is actually no like no no like invisible protective force that makes bitcoin the king it's it's mortal just like every single crypto asset and it's your problem if bitcoin gets dethroned it's not the coin that dethrones bitcoins problems that it dethroned bitcoin like what like completely irrational well you use the word holy david which i think kind of sums it up because i think that a lot of a lot of the belief around bitcoin is kind of religious in some

respects and i do wonder so i'll take the other side of this a little bit and i'll say well you could see some people who stick with that just just because of they have that affiliation they want to retain that and they and they want something that operates under these very restrictive and very clearly defined rules now i i'm actually not bullish on bitcoin long term because i don't think they have the flexibility to address like their supply issue and their security issue which that just on the face of it like i don't like the idea of just lying to myself every day and saying oh yeah we're going to be fine in like 20 years when the subsidy starts to drop and we might not have enough for security so so that's that's one of the reasons why i'm not a huge fan of it but i do think ether well i

will say if ether does flip bitcoin there's no guarantee ether is going to stay number one either i think either we'll have to continually earn it and we'll have to prove its value but i think what how they differ is that ethereum is extensible enough where it can be used in all of these different ways you can have trust minimized layer twos you can have settlement back to layer one of like smart contract based assets and bitcoin just can't do that and likely will never be able to do that and so i think that flexibility inherently gives ethereum some advantages i think that the greatest lie that bitcoin has ever told was saying that um uh technology didn't matter in this industry that um bitcoin i mean to an extent bitcoin doesn't really have like

i mean any of the fancy tech or anything like that and it's still valued highly but it does matter you know why it matters and and and how we can see that it matters because ethereum is gaining on bitcoin over the long term right and the more that ethereum progresses technologically the more upgrades we we kind of put in and the more fancy stuff that we do the more valuable each becomes and i think you know bitcoin is definitely valued like mostly based on that faith and that kind of like religious fervor and that belief that it is this asset that like it's never going to change on me it's it's exactly like like gold except digital um and then by that virtue i think that that they've painted themselves into a corner they didn't dream big enough dreams at that like to put it to put it frankly because if you

say oh we're digital gold well there's a cap on that right because there's a relative valuation you can do and there's a cap on how many people actually care about digital gold at the end of the day like i know i don't know anyone in my in my life that cares about digital gold besides bitcoiners like that's i don't know anyone ever that i've ever met that has ever said to me they care about gold or care about stacking gold or wanting to hold gold because if the government's going to come after them and seize their assets like if they didn't care about gold they're not caring about digital gold like exactly paradigm for them and and the generation that i mean a lot of people are younger people and they grow up with technology so for them seeing something you know advancing um through technology

and utility and something that they can use with ethereum and eve just just speaks to them a lot more i think that's why you see or at least what i've seen in the communities is that the ethereum community cares much more deeply about the technology and the use cases and the utility whereas whereas the bitcoin community cares about memes and beliefs and you know making sure that uh they they basically relay the value that they believe bitcoin has through these means and that's worked and it will continue to work i think i don't think bitcoin's gonna go down uh to zero or anything like that um but yeah if it does get permanently flipped i just personally i don't see the value for people holding it at that stage and i mean i have held no bitcoin for ages i mean i i tweeted out i found some the

other day i immediately swapped the freak which is a good decision in hindsight but you know just like that's kind of how i feel but i agree with you dc that you know there is there is a large community of people that that want that that that that are happy believing that but i just i really do wonder how many of them quote unquote lose their religion if bitcoin isn't number one yeah i mean i think that's a fair point anthony and i think you know the other dynamic that i'll say i'm seeing play out now is people are viewing either more and more as like a productive asset which bitcoin pretty clearly is not i'm sure there's gonna be someone who argues that it's somehow productive but it's not you buy it you hold it and you can put it in a centralized exchange or some kind of

custodian and they can do things with it that earn you a modest return versus ether which is this really productive collateral asset natively on its own platform in an economy that exists on its own platform it is a currency that pays for things in that economy i mean and it's the collateral asset that's going to secure it that is just a math and it will earn income for people and so another thing that i pointed out to earlier today on twitter was i think we're about to see a huge wave of fomo actually when people actually realize that eth2 is going to happen within the next year certainly and pop but possibly even within like say like the next eight months or something like that people are going to be like oh wow i need to get enough to stake asap and

you're going to see institutions through that you're going to see big players want to do that because they know this is going to be their last chance to earn that kind of return with a smaller investment so i think that kind of and i i'm telling you people are still sleeping on you just like they didn't think 1559 would ever happen there's still a contingent of people that don't think youtube merge is going to happen it's going to happen guys you know just and i've been in the calls myself and i'm seeing the consensus and the energy from both eth1 and eth2 devs now just ethereum devs working to make this happen and we know that after the merge the apy for staking eth is going to be 25 in ether terms right and the only way that that yield

becomes more rational is that people buy ether to stake so the yield comes down because people are buying ether right and with eip1559 january july 14th in the merge maybe at the end of this year uh the amount of not only is the ultrasound money vision complete but the execution risk of all these things is behind us and there's a lot of execution risk that's one of the biggest rational skepticisms of ethereum is execution risk and you know bitcoiners in into crypto the crypto industry at large will critique ethereum and and us eth people as like illustrating what ethereum is before it is actually that and it's really a matter of faith like do you think that

this thing like eip1559 and proof of sake will be implemented do you have faith that is the future version of these things if you do you can front run that uh execution risk right you can front run all of that that net buying power if you take it on on belief in faith and not necessarily faith because what dc just said is that he sees the energy right but you know speculation about the future but with that execution risk behind us and the ultrasound money vision complete like you don't get the same ether price then like you get the ether price now only now not not after execution risk is behind us uh and so that's that's the gamble of taking bets before vision is actually realized

hey and it's funny you talk about the staking apy going up i think that's one thing that people didn't realize is that once the merge happens um if all the fees that aren't being burned are going to stakers which means the apy is going to skyrocket from where it is today um and obviously maui is going to be staked because of that because we're also going to have withdrawals i don't know if we're going to have it with the merge but we will have it shortly after it as far as i know in terms of like with uh getting out of um you know if you want to exit and stuff like that um so it makes people more comfortable to stake but uh also on that note i put out a tweet like a few weeks ago where i basically said you know how many people

are actually aware of this stuff right like how many people actually aware of the merge one five five nine the issuance drop the staking apy going up all the fundamental value drivers for faith how many people are aware that institutions of italy yet um and all this sort of stuff right so when you really think about that like and aware of it and understand it there's very very few people that actually understand uh are aware of it and understand it at the same time and understand its implications and that's why the the return on eighth has been so good is because of this kind of like um you know uh i guess like a small group of people that understood it but they had to to get buy-in from a larger group of people now i i think we're seeing that happen in real time

right now we're seeing the the kind of information be disseminated across a wider group of people these people are following into each have been underexposed because they were chasing each killers or whatever and now they're just you know plowing back in and also you know there's a lot of bitcoin going into each because the ratio is going up right that's a clear signal there so that pool that was always my bet it's just like okay well you know i believe this is this is amazing this is going to keep growing how many people actually know about this and you know there's very few people like in 2018 and 2019 i would say there was less than a thousand people who actually knew about it and understood it now when you when you think about that and you think about how many people still have to come into the

industry and how quickly people come in during the bull market then it was it was a pretty easy bet for me to make like i had to have conviction and faith that you know this thing was gonna was gonna go somewhere it wasn't gonna just die out because of a bear market but that's that's always been my bet it's like the the the to me the total adjustable market of ethereum is every human on earth and does every human on earth know about it know about this and understand it no and if they know about ethereum they may not know about one five five nine or if they know about one five five nine they may not know about the merge there's a lot of people who knew about 1.59 and not the merge right not the issuance reduction that comes with the merge so from that point of view it's just

like well you take advantage of the um the information asymmetry there i mean i've been yelling it from the rooftops for for years like we all have like it's not it's not like i do this is like kind of an insider being like i'm going to keep the information to myself buy up now it's like no i was yelling about it from day one like constantly and if you just weren't in the industry then that's fine but if you were in and you were ignoring it because you were listening to you know bitcoin maximalist or listening to theorem killers well then the market you know has a way of making you feel that that pain i think of your mistakes well and i think that what's interesting now is in the current state of ether there aren't actually any strong value accrual mechanisms to ether as an asset

um it is bought as a speculative asset it's used a lot as a medium exchange and like nfts and things like that and it's used as a store of value and medium of exchange in defy as well so all of the demand you see for ether comes from that but now what as we move forward i mean and it's crazy how quickly and how condensed these things are going to be relatively to like the lifetime of ethereum which has been many years and now within six months it's all just going to change on its head right when eip 1559 launches the fee is going to start not only are the fees going to start being burned but the minor selling is basically going to stop right i mean yeah stakers will sell some but the issuance is far lower so so that's a huge change and then when you get into

proof of stake the issuance drops even further and even more people will be compelled to lock up more likely because they can withdraw and i mentioned earlier today everyone that's staking right now is basically just like a hobbyist more or less and some really early adopters but once you once you actually open it up and you allow the withdrawals with the merge that's going to bring in a ton of activity uh dc you talked about how uh ethereum has memes optional fundamentals are a must but memes are optional except the memes that come after the merge in eip1559 are absolutely phenomenal like we've already talked about ultrasound money and i think the jury's actually still kind of out with how scalable that meme is um but but something i'm super stoked to be able to say is is like if you're if

you're a bitcoiner and you've been shooting on ethereum you're probably been shooting on its monetary policy specifically you've probably been saying things along the lines of ether has no supply cap but after the merge in eip1559 we get to say that ether has no supply floor there actually there's no floor to ether supply it could just keep on going down so you're probably going to fomo into ether because you know you now might never get the same supply numbers again well let me just go ahead and i'm sorry oh now you gotta go well i was just gonna say with the ultrasound money piece and i wanted to address that because i know some people are like oh it's a terrible meme i was like look guys when you when you hear it you know exactly what a first time right

whether you love it or hate it you know exactly what it refers to now you know about this idea of 1559 burning and how proof of stake stacks with that i mean two months ago like it feels like a handful of people and they understood that so the meme has been effective for that reason alone even if it is a reviled meme so i i like it for that reason alone yeah a bad meme is a good meme in my books like it you know meme's job is to just get the information out there as quickly as possible and that's exactly what ultrasound money does whether it's a good or bad meme so um on that point about like the the the stupidest and the dumbest fudd of ethereum doesn't have a supply cap it's just been the most smooth brain fight

that i've ever heard in my life like if you listen to that and and think that that's the truth right i mean you you really need to kind of like i mean the people saying it i also believe it right and they're like oh it doesn't have a supply chain so it can't be valuable and then this is this goes back to what i'm saying before if the market is going to to make it more valuable than bitcoin then all these talking points just go completely out the window like everyone's going to see this and be like well you guys are just full of [ __ ] the whole time like what do you mean like how is it and then then people learn it's like okay well it doesn't have a supply cap but as you said david it's going to be turned into

well it doesn't have a supply floor because it's deflationary and i think people attack the ultrasound money mean because of um either because they think it's cringe or because they they understand that too they're like wow okay you know this could actually work look at all the fees that you know they just have to do the math just do the math look at the fees we're paying look at the issuance once the merge goes through oh look we're burning more than we're issuing each year it's deflationary right and then they they probably get yeah like holy [ __ ] like bitcoin's not going to be deflationary and bitcoin's also going to be issuing much more than ethereum for a while now um so when you know when someone's kind of like i guess backed into a corner it's like a fight or flight and they choose

to fight which i commend them for but their fighting points are just gonna land land on deaf ears at this point so um yeah i think that meaning that it doesn't have a flaw anymore um in terms of like its supply once everything happens is gonna be incredibly powerful and i and i do believe like one five five nine in the merge is what got a lot of the skeptics over over the line uh because a lot of the skeptics were always worried about ethereum you know the execution risk but also um eth not having a supply cap and and wondering you know okay well if it doesn't have a supply cap how is it gonna how's it going to accrue value over the long term um and then they fully understood that it's going to be deflationary and then they also understood that the high fees on the eth

network weren't going to go down right yes they go down they fluctuate but they were still going to be be high and i think a lot of people wondered is this sustainable and obviously it's a bull market so it's a bit warped but i do believe it is sustainable because the value that the ethereum network gives people is so high so i think a lot of these things have to happen uh for people to actually finally get on board and there was risk for us buying eighth you know during the bear market below 200 bucks but we had the conviction and the faith whereas a lot of people just needed to to see um uh so yeah from that perspective i think it's just uh it's really funny to see the narratives kind of change i've been uh watching the uh youtube chat and we got plenty of ada cardano

shirts in there per per usual for some reason they're everywhere and because you called it a scam dude like oh probably a scam like perhaps i said perhaps a scam you basically wave the flag saying hey come get me control me so this particular cardiano shill said ada fixed supply comma no burning of tokens needed and i'm like whoosh you just missed the entire point of that conversation [Laughter] smart contracts coming soon it's funny because i i think on that note actually for a serious response to that it doesn't matter i think what what matters is that the asset can't just have like a fixed supply and then it'd be valuable because of that it needs to have the demand side as well right you can't just i can't

just say hey guys i'm into like a thousand of these coins there's never going to be now it's worth more than bitcoin right um no because you need the demand side and you know in all honesty the aida asset yes it's worth a lot but it does not have the demand side that ethereum has or ether as an asset has um i believe ada has a demand side from a lot of people who uh maybe get shielded on youtube if i'm being honest right and a lot of um newer investors who come in and they buy into the narrative that cardano is going to kill ethereum and i'm not going to bash on cardano too much here but if you believe that are you going to like wait until like the next downtrend and see how how much you believe that when ada is down like 50 60

70 percent um from a ties um against usd and down a lot more against ethan and bitcoin yeah i think on i just gotta say on that point um you know in that podcast kobe did with uncommon core with hassou and suzu he brought up the fact that crypto investing is really almost like in a post-truth world and a lot of times like because everyone's just investing in what everyone else thinks is like going to go up and it's just pure like narrative chasing in the short term i do believe that in the long term fundamentals matter and they have mattered for ether which is why you know the three of us were buying ether at like a hundred dollars because we're just like this is all bs and you know all these narratives are false but

in the near term it does confuse newcomers so for anyone who's watching that's trying to figure out what would you do in that environment i always think there's value in investing more in things that have true fundamental value and if you want to chase a couple of hype trains you know go for it i've learned just over the years that it's not it's not my cup of tea it's not how i like to sleep at night uh you know i can slowly at night holding ether i can't sleep and holding a lot of these other tokens which um you know are far more volatile and will have far more downside and part of the the fundamentals conversation with ethereum which is both obvious but also not explicitly talked about often enough is the combination of eip1559

and an app layer right if bitcoin could implement eip1559 and i think it actually would actually legitimately help bitcoin and that would probably be a good upgrade but it doesn't mean the same thing as a smart contracting platform implementing eip1559 because a smart contract platform with an app player generates like this internal energy this internal economic volume demand to transact trading on unit swap borrowing on ave doing all these things speculating on nfts generalizable economic activity and having that hosted inside of the ethereum app layer means that there's generalized economic activity and then the eip1559 mechanism is like the solar panel that captures that energy and

funnels it into ether the asset and so uh you know we we have filecoin with eip1559 implemented and i really don't think of i don't think there's a single blockchain that honestly shouldn't implement eip1559 but it hits differently when there is an app layer and that economic activity plus the burning is really where we get that that deflation from exactly and you know on on the supply cap thing as well the reason why eth or ethereum doesn't want to have a supply cap on 8 is because it's a security issue at the end of the day because then you're just relying on fees for for your um issuance to to miners or stakers and that's exactly what what bitcoin is going to rely on in the long term uh because they don't have uh

because they have a supply cap sorry so for me it's always been really smart to do these perpetual issuance with eth2 incredibly low perpetual issuance because we don't have to pay stakers as much as we pay miners for the same economic security as justin drake uh so eloquently puts in his bankless podcast i those those three bankless podcasts are like the things to listen to if you want to be converted into an eatable but um and then cut and then couple that with one five five nine to to burn a lot of the fees because if you have fee revenue that's higher than the block subsidy it actually leads to instability of the chain and it leads to perverse incentives so by burning most of it you also kind of like uh drive value back to all leaf holders not just stakers and miners but every person holding each

so they're not inflated away um even though the insurance is very low it's still a little bit more it's it's still um inflation if you look at it that way uh and then you know send whatever's left over to stakers as well to to pump up that apy a little bit and give stickers a bit more meat and encourage more people to stake so you know one day we can see you know tens of millions of eat steaks once the merger goes through earning a decent apy um you know the app layer burning all this i mean you know it just it's deflationary but as you said david it's deflationary because the app layer is so strong if you if you were to do one five five nine on any of these other chains it wouldn't mean anything because their fee revenue is like basically zero and they've

actually shot themselves in the foot because they say to themselves well we're not going to have high fees on on layer one right it's like well okay cool i mean then you won't have deflation yeah exactly you won't have like a a long term valuable asset uh and and you know and and the thing is though we're not saying that the high fees are good for end users but the higher fees on layer one is a consequence of us keeping layer one as decentralized and secure as possible and then we just push users to layer two which they get the same um security guarantees but they get like instant transactions and like basically free transactions and then the operators as a business essentially pay for that security to layer one for the user so that it to me has always been like the beautiful design of ethereum and and and

you can't do this with bitcoin because bitcoin doesn't want to change ethereum wants to change ethereum wants to be the best it can be yeah and on that point of fees by the way i'm on crypto fees.info right now which is a great resource just to track how fees move around i don't think a lot of people realize that ethereum fees from a blockchain perspective are earning almost 2x what bitcoin does on a deal or more than 2x actually so the average seven day fees for ethereum for the past seven days have been 17.3 million and they've been 8.8 million for bitcoin so and a lot of that as david said is due to the fact that ethereum has all of this has this computational layer so there's a lot more opportunities to earn fees i also want to point out what you know tying

onto anthony set around the layer two discussion so think about it this way um they those layer twos are i i the the analogy that i've used is like they're kind of like skyscrapers in the sense of they increase the density of what's possible on layer one and so you could have in the same space that like a few transactions might have occupied you can now fit hundreds or thousands of transactions meaning that those roll-ups will actually be willing to pay even more in fees so the burning potential under eip1559 stacked with roll-ups long-term is like mind-boggling and i don't think people really understand that yet either yeah if we're talking about the number of people that understand that aspect to

it uh yeah very very small pool of people and you're watching the stream today you're very lucky because you're part of an elite club that you know doesn't that you know that not many people are aware of that uh but yeah i i think i've said before that i expect one day that ethereum will be generating billions of dollars of fee revenue a day um just from the sheer amount of economic activity because if ethereum is powering the global economy then those billions of dollars are coming from uh you know billions of people at the end of the day uh if ethereum is powering the global economy so imagine burning billions of dollars of ether day like that's when it gets crazy and to be to be fair that's probably like a fair ways away in the future until we get to like this global scale and everything

like that um you know i would say like uh you know it could it could take up to 10 years or something like that but in in when you look at this sort of stuff you know the crypto ecosystem as a whole is only about 10 11 years old so you know another 10 years and look how far we've already come so you know i just think that technology progresses much faster than we that we think um i think it does and when we look back we're like holy crap like this came this came so quickly in the grand scheme of things so uh yeah it's just it's really wild when you consider all of it together and the potential here at the end of the day because we've only scratched the surface of what we can do with this stuff yeah by the time that we're in the 2030s

all of these conversations that we're having right now will just be the most distant memories like hey remember that time that we were just plagued with cardano shields on crypto twitter like that was a weird that was a weird time in our history you know what's funny it was like it was like a couple years ago when there was xrp shields everywhere right they just moved months ago yeah as soon as the sec thing happened the xrp army dwindled and the ada army arose and i'm like where what happened here yeah exactly um and you know i guess like that's not to say that these other platforms can't gain some kind of market share in niche areas but when someone says they're going to kill ethereum you know that's when i stopped like tuning in and i want to see anyone who says

that to me on twitter i i straight up block now because i just don't have time for that and and i just i know that they're new to the ecosystem i know like it's just a such an obvious signal and it's fine if you believe that right now but you're going to get humbled by the market eventually and and when that happens you know if you're going to welcome you back in open arms maybe i'll still have you blocked unfortunately but um you know um i i totally get it uh but at the same time it's just at the end of the day if you're new to the ecosystem and you're telling people that have been here for many years what you know that your platform's gonna kill ethereum i mean not not to sound you know too egotistical here but just like it's just

not gonna work right we'll we'll see you next cycle when you figure it out right yeah and i think i think what a lot of people fail to understand is ethereum is like this emergent construct now and it's it really is this it has it has grown into this movement where when a shortcoming arises like thousands of really smart people all agglomerate around it and figure it out you know what i mean and so it's like betting i said this in a tweet reply to some earlier days like they don't ever bet against ethereum because you're just betting against the ingenuity of a community that is willing to address really hard problems head-on and there are not many communities in crypto that really can be that can say that they can

do that and ethereum may really be the only one there's always there's always been this beam that started with again started with bitcoin and bitcoin is a the source of really good memes they're just sometimes not the most accurate and the the meme was that if it is something good it will be built upon bitcoin and that was a really strong bitcoiner meme for a while except the thing is it started to become true on ethereum and this is where vitalik says talks about uh the escape velocity of expressivity where if you start with bitcoin and just get a little bit more expressive you can start to add on anything that you need that is viable and specifically with like if it doesn't fit in the protocol level if it doesn't

make sense to add it into the protocol level you can do it on rollups and roll ups are just an expressive l2 and so any good idea that you have you can just put it on ethereum and we've seen so much of this come and go we've like eos is it was built as a side chain to to ethereum as loom network that didn't really pan out uh zcash is being built inside of aztec protocol for for privacy tokens to be sent in private manners um if i had if i had better better notes i would be able to rattle off a list of number other features but there are good things that were developed independently of ethereum that ethereum just adopted bitshares is one you know bishares turned into make or doubt just build it inside the app layer

we could go down the list and like there's so many good things that did not arise on ethereum but because ethereum is a already a decentralized functioning platform with a community we were just able to just slap it right on right ethereum is just like this platypus thing that just gets a new feature every time we've discovered something viable um it's that yeah it is that network effect that means everything right because trying to bootstrap something from the ground up is incredibly hard there's not many platforms that will be able to do that in the long term um and you know even the platforms that actually have smart contracts uh you know they they are still not seeing much much activity right i know that we have some some things like bsc and stuff like that but i don't think bsc is even competing in the same arena as ethereum

it is it is essentially to me an extension of binance it like i truly believe it's a good onboarding vehicle for for this stuff in general like for defy in general because it makes people install metamask it gets people used to using metamask and the ethereum address space right each of scan bsc scans a clone of that it's like ethereum wheels exactly exactly and i know people say oh that's just maxi copa it's like well i mean no because just think about it logically from with metamask all you need to do is change your network to be on a new network and bridge your assets across so what do you think's going to happen when these generalized layer 2s go live and they just use metamask all these users who are on bsc can now just come over and hop over to these layer 2s and start

using the same apps um with with lower fees than bsc because the fees will be basically negligible bsc's fees are always going to be more than you know even if it's like you know 50 cents or a dollar it's still always going to be higher than layer 2s because of the fact that it's inherently unscalable due to it just copying ethereum now people will say oh well you know bsc can have layer twos on on there it's like well i mean what's the point then like why not just use the ethereum's layer twos and get a much better innovative experience than you will on on bsc and i know binance has the onboarding funnel and everything and that's good because they can just on board people to metamask which on boards them to ethereum eventually i i truly believe that and i think there's a lot

of people who use bsc because they just can't use ethereum right now but they want to use ethereum they actually do care about decentralization contrary to popular belief uh and i think that long term means a lot and i think you know i would have to thank cz for getting people to install metamask that is a big step even though if it seems small that is a very big step for a lot of people to take to get off a centralized exchange and install like a a metamask to give them access to to d5 so so i think it's actually really interesting that bsc versus the other like actual chains trying to be eath killers and i don't need to name names but you know what i'm saying there's quite a few of them bsc took all of that potential market share

from them and yes it's taken some market share from ethereum as well because you know but they're lower fee transactions that the network can't support at this moment but i think that's really interesting and kind of speaks to the value proposition of how the market evaluates these chains right so there's ethereum and bitcoin which are on the extreme like actual decentralization side there's clearly demand to use those chains and there's demand for highly centralized side chains which are basically controlled by one entity not even regulated by laws of most people's jurisdictions right and and is there demand for stuff in between i mean maybe it's it's kind of like it kind of exposes the fallacy and some of that thinking so i am open-minded on some of this and i'm not trying to declare a

definitive thesis here but the data just kind of point me to that conclusion and and so what binance has done is not really that interesting or unique it was innovative in the sense that no one had done it before and linked it to an exchange but there's nothing really stopping anyone else from doing the same thing and i don't know that any network effect that finance chain can accrue will be meaningful across this cycle to be honest it's funny you mentioned uh the eighth killer just one note on that they spent billions of dollars trying to compete with ethereum and then a centralized clone of ethereum came along and beat them all i just think that's just a funny crazy grand irony in the grand scheme of things i think finance smart chain will actually be the the right way to view it is that it

is actually fantastic competition for things like coinbase and gemini right that is a future that they cannot produce and they you get with if you're not ready to step into d5 right if you're not ready to step in the the high fee crucible where things are relatively permanent and expensive you can go to cd5 which is finance smart chain right training wheels defy centralized defy and you get to practice in the like it feels like the tutorial island for for like getting into defy like oh did your transaction revert well that's great it only costs you a fraction of a penny sorry about that but here's how you manage like transaction fees and gas and stuff like that um and i've actually been tinkering around in polygon on the

l2 and just being able to go to my meta mask and just like go to the drop down menu and go from mainnet to polygon and then use matic to make in like near instant transactions that are free and that's not even the complete ethereum l2 vision like oh yeah like this is this is just gonna work out beautifully i think on that note about the other centralized exchanges too and and i've i've written about this i know that we've all talked about this a lot um they are not going to bridge into bsc ever right because bsc is not a credibly neutral platform and what i mean by credibly neutral is that it benefits one person if you um drive value to bsc and that one person is cz right so why would coinbase want to benefit finance in any

way or cz in any way why would they want to drive value there they wouldn't right and it's also a regulatory nightmare too but that what they will bridge into is these credibly neutral platforms like ethereum um i believe that they're going to bring into ethereum layer twos as well and i believe that they're going to bridge into into into into polygon as well i mean for a number of reasons just in general the the credible neutrality is such an underrated aspect because even the competitors even binance who is trying to compete with ethereum has to bridge into ethereum has to support ethereum they have no choice because ethereum has the you know most of the assets users want to trade the ethereum network is heavily used by most of their users so from that perspective credible neutrality is incredibly underrated it's

something vitalik's wrote about as well and it's what inspired me to think more deeply about it he wrote about it a while ago i think about 18 months ago um but you know when you really really think about that and the implications of that and extend that out to basically every organization and every person within the world they're not going to want to support any one party they want to support a platform that does not enrich just one person and does not benefit one personal group if what they want to do and that's exactly what happened with the internet there was aol or whatever back in the day these two you may not you may know more about this those private internets that people tried to spin up and that failed because you know no one wants to benefit you know the competitors don't want to

benefit their their competitors so to speak right um they want to be able to build on a neutral platform where everyone kind of grows together and that's what the internet was first envisioned as which may not be as true today because we have these huge kind of companies on the internet but maybe you can give them all color their dc i'm probably not to say you're old but i'm probably too normal and actually i'm about 80 of the way through a blog post which talks through this that i need to finish up but it kind of compares it kind of compares the rise of ethereum to the rise of the internet and that's exactly how it was because you had and it was because it was actually due to bandwidth constraints initially right so people actually used to for some of the younger people on here they might even not even

realize people actually used to dial in over phone lines you know using dial up to get you get access to the internet and there were a couple services in the us that became really popular like america online compuserve and prodigy and each one of them had like their own niche that they tried to kind of market to and so i think compuserve copy surf was kind of the more like advanced tech user aol was like anyone could use it it's really user accessible prodigy had like online shopping before that was a thing but they were all these closed little bubbles and actually when you went on to those services they tried to hone you in on their content and they would source stuff from the internet for you to like consume

and then over time users demanded access to their own web browser so they started installing netscape and they were then using the tcpip connection to access the internet and so that so the parallels to me are like so similar it's like mind-boggling and so bsc and i think side chains like that are just going to be serving as these little onboarding ramps to this world of ethereum but i think what is interesting about ethereum is because the assets are so portable certainly into l2 that can be done in a trust minimized manner as we talk about the side chains there are certain trust assumptions introduced but a lot of that value can still be on ethereum but being used elsewhere i think that's also a really interesting

dynamic anthony you talked about uh vitalik's concept of uh credible neutrality and we actually recorded with vitalik today on uh kind of like an evolution on that kind of train of thought because he recently put out a blog post called legitimacy the most powerful force is legitimacy and uh ryan called it kind of like a uh a theory a theory of everything when it comes to like the crypto space because legitimacy influences the social world outside of crypto a lot right it really defines a lot of the way that humans work but inside the crypto space it's even more and legitimacy is such an incredibly powerful force inside the crypto space so that podcast is coming out a week from monday so stay tuned for that while i'm

shilling bankless content uh here is at anthony's daily gray youtube channel in the chat box so if you are here watching thank you for everyone for being here the 245 people watching uh so thanks for being here we do this every single week uh we brought on special guest dc investor and here is dc investors twitter handle for those of you who are on twitter you can go ahead and follow him and guys as we are getting to the close here i do want to bring up another piece of banquet's content which comes out on monday and uh this concept has been really fascinating to me where we brought on this historian to do this parallel comparison between the 1400s renaissance and what he is calling a crypto renaissance which is claimed to be perhaps equal to if not

larger than the magnitude of the og renaissance and the the extrapolations that he made was uh the invention of the gutenberg uh printing press allowed for freedom of information and actually allowed for meme culture to come about in in 1300s and 1400s this for this easily printed viral information and then that was like the internet of today the internet is also this communications protocol that allowed for cheap communication also allowed for a resurgence in meme culture and then also back in the 1300s there was double entry bookkeeping which created finance which created this new wealth distribution mechanism and today we have the blockchain and we have defy and so i'm really excited for

that piece of content to come out i hope you guys listen to it and any thoughts on on such a comparison of this nature this is one for they say this is obviously you know i thought about this a lot and i think there are so many parallels and you've hit on some of them but even even coincide that with the rise of like nft based art and how the renaissance period a lot of people remember it for the art that emerged from that actually a lot of that art was financed by bankers and interestingly actually banking hasn't changed that much since the 1400s this is still a double-entry bookkeeping yeah it's basically the same technology we've just made it faster and slightly more efficient so i think that this is actually i actually can't wait to watch that episode because yeah i kind of had

that thought in the back of my mind and i've shared it on twitter a couple times but we'd be really interested to hear that from like a renaissance historian perspective [Music] anthony you are you've got some friends in the youtube chat talking about how the daily gray is fire it's definitely true also anthony alongside these cardano shields was definitely a win-anthony dance harasser lot so there's two of them coming into the youtube chats trying to get you to dance anthony when are you gonna dance man ah dude i don't know like i know i should i know i'm you know i i regret making that promise so much of course you do i made it at like 4am when i was you

know uh lying in bed couldn't sleep and i'm like ha ha ha ha ha ha ha funny yeah bit euphoric um actually i think at the time eighth was maybe like 700 or 800 and i said i will do this dance if either gets to all-time high this month and it was january and then eth teleported and i'm like what please no like what and then i made the tweet that said i wouldn't tweet again until it was at all-time high and i'm like okay okay this is this is the sacrifice i'm making right um which is the february and then eighth at all time in january i'm like [ __ ] i'm never living this down now and i'm just i'm such a bad dancer like i am horrible and i will embarrass myself forever

it'll live on the internet forever so that's why i'm hesitant to do it but you know eventually i'll probably do it just just because but uh i haven't got any plans yet of when i want to do it like i said you could you're welcome to sell me your debt and i'll dance for you for some eth that we can agree upon uh i i'm looking at the at the comments in the chat it's like dance at east 10k the dance of the flipping yeah i mean i the flipping i can i can do it because like at that point i'm just like you know euphoric i'm just like living on a cloud the moral of the story is don't make any more promises based on price number one because it will always surprise you but

but i will say that um you know i've become a big fan of the daily guy as well and i've started watching it um more regularly recently because i honestly can't keep up with everything that goes on so i don't know how you do it anthony i don't know if you've got like a team of interns backing you up somewhere but i was like i was watching this i was like how does you even find this stuff i'm on twitter i don't see half of this stuff but yeah you're really digging up some gems so i appreciate that yeah thanks man i appreciate the support there um but yeah unfortunately i don't have like uh an army of interns it's all it's all me um just sitting here every day combing through everything uh it's easy to do when you're passionate about it i guess like when you really care

about what you're doing and really excited about it so uh but i'm glad people are getting value out of it i mean the channel has been growing really nicely the newsletter is growing really nicely and it's just you know for me now it's just like a thing that i do right every every weekday just a routine um that kind of keeps people updated so yeah i mean i saw the comments in the chat people are saying you know delegates fire and everything like that really means the world to me so thanks to those people as well yeah i i can definitely corroborate dc it is where i get my alpha for sure uh it's nice bite size little chunks 25 35 minutes uh and it's it feels like you know brushing my teeth you know combing my hair like you know my my daily hygiene also daily keeping up with

ethereum made easy by anthony cesano so hear those links one more time uh there's dc investors twitter handle uh and here is the daily gray youtube channel and i think that will bring us to a close of the daily gray bankless weekly live stream usually on friday today on thursday because david's going to vegas to put all of his ether on black i'll let you guys know how that goes uh and any any last comments from either of you just thanks for letting me third wheel it guys it was fun of course anytime yeah thanks thanks for being here dc it's it's always good to get your perspectives on things and i'm looking forward to that blog post i think that's gonna going to set some good narratives for people hopefully yeah

all right guys awesome cheers the livestream is nice goodbye thanks guys