Is the Banking Sector Prepared to Offer Crypto Solutions to Corporates and Individuals? | EBC10

Transcript

[Music] uh thank you very much for that very warm welcome and it's my pleasure today to lead this panel discussion with my esteemed panelists I myself um Pascal I work at the Arab Bank in Switzerland we're a private bank who have been exploring digital assets and navigating the regulatory uh landscape since 2017 and we've developed a special offering a diverse offering of digital Asset Services for our clients starting in 2019 and we're going on into that space we have here uh Lucas he's the deputy CEO

of bit Panda and brings a unique perspective from a leading crypto platform providing insights into how the crypto industry views the Readiness of traditional Banks uh we also have Anastasia she is the CEO of fidum group and she offers a perspective on digital asset management and legal considerations in adopting crypto Solutions uh Kurt is the head of strategy and Innovation at RI and londes Bank a major traditional banking institution providing insight into the Readiness and challenges facing banks in integrating crypto Services um then we have S he's the head of custody and digital assets at London

bankk B wenber and we will discuss the Regulatory and risk management perspectives of a traditional banking entity regarding crypto adoption then last but not least we have Jean Mar he's the CEO of societ societ General Forge and will share his expertise on how societ General is integrating digital assets into the banking infrastructure offering insights into the future of tokenized financial services so just to give a quick outline we're going to open the panel discussion with a general question for each panelist and then we'll move into more focused questions and if we have time at the end we'll open up to the audience for one or

two questions and then we'll just summarize the whole thing and uh continue with more panels of the day so to my dear panelists to start uh could you each brief give me an overview a one minute uh overview of how ready you think the banking sector is to offer crypto solutions to corporate and individuals and are we seeing a more active approach or are are banks still very cautious sure so hi everyone also from my side great to have you here today I think it's a very cool conference especially this year why because probably that fits directly to the question right I think we can observe now compared to a couple of years ago

that the traditional financial service industry the TR tread fire world uh and also the crypto world that's me here uh are coming step by step Mana together right and this is great to see um and I personally believe that's only mainly to one reason right it's MAA gives here in Europe regulatory Clarity and uh It For the First Time opens up how Banks and crypto companies digital asset companies cannot just collaborate but how Banks actually can treat crypto and can also treat digital assets across their service offering um years ago this would not have been imaginable and nowadays just we suddenly sit here um and it's possible so I personally believe that we are just on the start of that Journey maturing a whole industry the crypto

industry into what the future actually will be a part of the financial service industry and that's very interesting thing Anastasia what's your take we celebrated when M was finally adopted as a fellow crypto service provider we have regulatory Clarity we can come to our esteemed partners and previously rivals in the financial sector and actually have a common ground how we can work together so it's um it's only the beginning and we see how much work is being done when it comes to where the banking industry stands right now I think there are amazing Trailblazers and Banks some of them are indeed more cautious and fairly so because for so long crypto was just a wild west so a lot of work needs to be

done but I believe that all of us and especially people on this panel are doing just that so banks are they ready or are they cautious um I would say they they're ready and they have to be ready and I would probably like to turn the side a bit away from the regulation perspective that was just mentioned but looking at the customer perspective um customers have been ready for years they've been telling us for years that we need to be ready so at least uh within the rasing group we are ready we are having an offering uh for customers and I think uh the crypto industry is here to stay regulation just supports it and I think that's the confirmation that this is not something that's going to go away so from our perspective um we better deal

with it and and uh to take from a customer perspective if customers demand offering um we better provide them with an offering or they're going to get it somewhere else thank you Jean mock good afternoon everyone I think no banks and financial institutions generally speaking have embarked in in a train and and the train has now left the the station and won't come back so obviously there are different degree of maturity when it comes to crypto and digital assets with institutions but all large financial institutions have no crypto dedicated teams they are focusing on different use cases different type of services but just witnessing uh what is announced in

the market I think we can definitely recognize that there is um an incredible uh increase in the speed of adoption U it takes time to build a solution just with us for instance speaking for took us for instance two years just to get a cry crypto license took us an additional one of two years to adapt uh some of the systems uh we run internally to be able to provide digital Asset Services issuing security tokens we issued also stable coin as you as you may know so it's a long journey but we definitely see uh the adoption Rising with our clients and with is our peers in creating this

interconnectivity we need to scale those Solutions and I think we are indeed at the beginning of a scaling phase uh and not in an early adoption phase the value proposal has been demonstrated now the the train is accelerating happy to uh close the round here um I cannot remember uh a year where we've seen so many you know announcements uh and activity um in traditional banking with regards to crypto and to digital assets and not only have we seen um announcements we've seen deals right we've seen big volume deals and um I think even the most let's say you know conservative traditional banks have

realized that digital assets are here to stay they will not just go away one day and um I think this is the big thing that um we all kind of you know observe here uh thank you to each and all of you so now we get into the fun part we go into the individual questions where I can start grilling uh each of you so Kurt the first one's the first one's going to be for you so from a retail and corporate customer perspective how important is it for traditional Banks to offer crypto services and do you see a distinct difference between the retail or individual and the corporate segment well thank you let me start to pick up on what I said before um how

important is it to have an offering at retail I think it's it's it's immensely important to not ignore the fact that H investing into digital assets is not for youngsters uh but it's it's it's developing to me a mainstream um type of investment right um we saw a lot of funds move away from uh our checking accounts our our current accounts to to crypto platforms right and then we said well what is the what is the alternative you have either you have these funds uh move out and and and customers going to get going to change the main banking relationships going to change the secondary banking relationships and you're going to lose them after all or do you adopt the fact that um this is an

investment class that is to be taken serious and you you provide an offering right um I think that's one angle the second angle is that uh the traditional investment offering very advice based is is not for people um that want to make quick decisions that want to make convenient decisions that want to invest while watching a football game right it's all a very a very lengthy and and cumbersome um process and then at least in in Riis and we we came to the decision and say what do we do do we build on our own or or do we partner right and and we found a a great partner with with bitpanda to integrate their um their bitpanda Technology Solutions

offering for retail um um we've launched that in January 2024 I think as one of the first traditional uh European banking institutions um to do so and and we're seeing great success right so is our banks ready I can just say Yes um our retail customers uh ready I would also say Yes um for us the the the two numbers that I can share um 75% of customers that do use the crypto product did not invest with us before so we're really addressing a a whole new segment um we're capturing a an audience that we did not have um we're proving the people wrong that told us we're going to

cannibalize our traditional investment investment offering and I would also say this whole combination of um crypto investing directly from your bank account also proves in numbers um that uh and and Lucas allowed me to share so the the average trading volume that we see is about four times higher than in the bitban the retail business which which I think proves the fact that this finding this captive audience where you integrate does um does make a lot of sense on the corporate side I would say on our side uh we're still looking for the perfect use case uh I'll be honest we've not we've not found it yet um there are some tendencies in the small and mediumsized Enterprise segment where

where we're getting demand um but we're definitely much more advanced on the retail side thank you thank you so much for your detailed answer um just to follow up Anastasia from a legal standpoint what do you see being the main challenges or hurdles for banks looking to develop a crypto offering I think it all starts with the banks risk appetite and the ability just to digest this immense operational expenses uh as Kurt you mentioned with bit Panda you implemented this amazing retail wing and solution for many other institutions is just not feasible uh what we see from our side um actually it is more opposite it is fairly easier to integrate

solutions for your corporate clients that are really much more risk averse they have they larger legal teams and it's just much easier on boarding overall because the they are more more or less sophisticated investors if you will um again with MAA and basil regulations and everything what Asma is saying everything is becoming easier and markets instead of this massive fragmentation we're getting harmonized but it's it's a process and it really varies per jurisdictions what we see in the customers um we see that customers from um nordics and Eastern Europe they're much more eager to adopt as well as France and benel entities for instance it is a very interesting landscape even though now regulatory

burden it will slowly get smaller because we have C Clarity right so it's um it's a good times to be and it's a very good time to start doing business and co-integrate a lot of different solutions so yeah with the with the market Clarity and the regulations most probably the European market is more advanced than in the US um yes and no um in the European markets we do have regulation US has most of the liquidity uh there are a lot of transactions that are happening intercontinentally it would be between Canada that actually has fairly robust and working legislation there as well European union and Australia interestingly enough we have UK that is sitting more or less isolated because

there is a Clarity but not enough and a lot of companies are living that environment and coming on the on the mainland thank you so much so Lucas um from a perspective of a crypt native company what do you think banks need to do to prepare themselves for crypto Integrations and are there spe specific Technologies or strategies that they would shift into or would need to shift into I think the most important topic if you're a financial institution is not not to think about how can you enable crypto as an asset class or digital Assets in general it's much more about how much business is your customer base and the user base already doing as of today but simply somewhere else instead

of uh your platform and your business and the reality is you just need to look into the payment flows you need to look into the payment flows of where are your customers as of today sending their Fiat money to crypto platforms or your corporates to Simply acquire um crypto assets and Bitcoin for example that's uh these actually are studies which are quite easy to do which I also know that some of our partners uh like R and Kur have done just to identify what is the potential here um what you currently are missing out and that actually gives you already a quite good understanding about the revenue case behind it um and then this should lead to actually doing projects in that regards not coming up with oh does it technological wise make sense to go into the space in the end

it's a business case and it's a revenue driving business case which is not that in the banking world so thanks thanks for that uh Jean Mark uh given your experience at societ General Forge how do you see traditional Banks adopting tokenized financial services and what role do you foresee for institutions in that space yeah sure so as I said it's a it's a long journey and and um people have started at at different times at suen we started the journey five years ago to to to go to your question I think we tend to see uh these developments in two different pieces when it comes to crypto and blockchain first one everything which do concern obviously po pure

crypto like offering services on bitcoin ether and crypto assets and a second one which is actually uh of higher importance ultimately for financial institutions is the ability to run our core activities meaning on Securities on chain and bring security Market on chain with everything it entails including collateral management and derivatives product it's two different Dynamics we are seeing here the first one being primarily driven uh by customers we see high customer demand across the Spectrum from retail Market online banking uh private Banks

um very Capital Market nichy strategy on the second hand the demand or the need is more driven by financial institutions themselves in the need to improve their processes to bring more efficiency uh better quality product faster settlement and reduce risk to the the clients and that's a little bit what uh what institutions try to to bridge today and to bring to the to the market thank you uh orus given your recent experience supporting corporates and Financial institutions in issuing crypto Securities how do you see the demand evolving and do you believe that traditional banks are well positioned to

meet this demand and what challenges or opportunities do you foresee in scaling these Services um happy to to give my view on that Pascal um we have as lbbw helped clients over the last three months to issue um tokenized bonds with a volume of roughly 500 million Eur uh bringing that to the market um which is by far more than I think we've seen last year and the year before and the last years um where is you know where these transactions coming from the transactions are clearly coming from you know issuers who are willing to you know tap into tokenize bonds so it's clearly from the supply side it's driven from

the supply side um our job as bank is bringing together you know the issuer and the investor so um are we positioned in a smart way yes of course we are because that's basically the job um the question is how to make sure that you know the issuance um meets demand and we have a very strong franchise in um you know tier 2 German asset manager Savings Banks which is maybe the most traditional and you know Bank you can think of and we were able to to Really you know um bring these deals and issuances to these investors by you know explaining a lot by helping out in npps by making transparent where difference are between traditional Bond and you

know a tokenized bond um challenges are still there because it's education education education um but I think in terms of position that was your question I think there is let's say certain positions that bank can play in that in that field and you were referencing the the bonds Market have you seen any other interest in tokenizing other real world assets or you focus more on the traditional Financial instruments at least for lbw we're focusing very much on the traditional instruments to be fair um but happy to get other views here from from the panel can I add because we are active in the field as well and offering tokenization services to our corporate

and financial institution client already in production and as I said the number of transactions we see coming up and the volumes are increasing steadily where we see the highest coming from on our end and considering our Market positioning is indeed for financing through Bond insurances because as you may know the bond market is actually very efficient according to crypto standards and other standards we find in um the more traditional financial markets so bringing uh the speed and the ability uh to bring um you know traceability transparency and programmability

within the asset itself like for instance uh art coding a coupon payment within a bond is a very powerful uh use case there and as an extension to that the second largest demand we see is for structure product where also we can easily imagine that bringing within the token a formula a payoff is a very natural move uh for the market to go um with soci General being based in France does the The Exchange um like I don't know in Switzerland the the six do you does your local exchange also uh support that initiative well exchanges

we we have in front there is one actually uh is I must say not that involved into these topics but well I would say at the end of the day it's not that uh important because anyway clients are Global and these markets are globals uh and we are in engage ourself uh in you know bringing more adoption to this product by listing uh our isues and notably the Euro convertible stable coin across multiple venues and we just announced this morning the upcoming listing and availability of the Euro convertible with bit pond that's what we what we aim for in the coming months and coming weeks bringing more liquidity to

this product uh by hiring more market makers liquidity is key in this market I think here also leveraging the ability of a bank uh bringing the transparency the no in financial structuring the security of such an important assets which are stable coin again leveraging on what a bank could bring in terms of collateral management and structuring capability is probably a valid uh value proposal for for customers great thank thank you so much Anastasia coming back to the point and and the difference between institutional and individuals what are the main legal and risk considerations a bank needs to undertake when offering these services

to corporates versus individual customers well I think first of all it will depend on the main focus of the particular banking institutions uh with some of our banking clients when we work some of them especially those younger and newer Challenger Banks they're very focused on one particular type of client it can be it can be digital companies it can be e-commerce those Banks they really fully grasp and of course banks are not strangers to heavy regulatory lifting that they have to do for their normal banking activities so adding MAA it might be shocking for crypto companies but for already regulated financial institutions it's not that hard U Mika uh is very similar to Mid too in in in many many

ways right so it's um it's not news the key is when financial institutions select are they targeting retail or corporate and what type of corporate then we're coming back to the use cases and the risk associated with every use case let's say if we if somebody wants to offer staking a lot of staking products right now in the crypto Market are kind of semi-broken and that includes uh liquid staking and liquid rest staking as well there are a lot of counterparty risks and third party risks that crypto industry is tolerating but it's really above the banking and financial institution level tolerance for that particular risk when it comes to remittances and payments in stable coins it's a fairly straightforward but

then again stable coin does not equal stable coin and there is a lot of mess in the market that's happening right now so it's um uh one of the very interesting use cases that we're solving is centralized and regulated MAA versus defi that has been left alone essentially outside M but as we know usdc equals usdc but uh knowing all your transactions that Happ with that particular usdc up till ages ago it's very important now it's um it's still fairly messy if we really dive deep and start structuring different products and use cases but the key points are risks operational risks uh training compliance

departments on not only qac and qab Banks do it better much better than crypto industry does but also know your transactions and all the dark pools and everything what's happening now so effectively the risk managing for retail customers that come less prepared and they sometimes not aware of those questions why bank is asking me all of that sometimes might be tricky for smaller institutions with um large institutions or those that service companies it's very straightforward we we see a lot of customers are so well educated on what they want how they operate and they do accept all reg regulatory requirements what what would from a banking perspective what would be easier the corporate or the retail

okay Anastasia oh I was looking at the banking colleagues in my opinion corporate then uh Kurt I know that risen I mean how are you addressing these issues at risen bank and what are the risk management strategies in place for these different client segments look for us the it's a it's a learning Journey right so when I first brought up the idea in our board uh I didn't have many friends right and and but it's about educating the people it's about educating risk people compliance people legal people and for us the the key to success was was partnering right you don't need to take every risk on

your own you don't need to handle every process on your own um work with the best um Partners in the industry and and I think where we got confidence uh within the within the I would say second line of defense teams is um when when we got their extension uh their attention to understand in detail right to understand how does regulatory Outreach work how does transaction monitoring work how does KC work and how can we align the processes of our partner to our own um and I think what was also a what's a key risk mitigation issue from our side was because at the end of the day from today's perspective we don't yet take any risk on digital SES or cryptocurrencies or whatsoever so the

only risk basically that's left is is reputational risk right and so the the the risk mitigation question on our side was who is the right partner that we work with have they got you know proven Regulatory Compliance do they do proper Outreach to regulators and and once I think the teams in the second line of defense in in our banking group understood that we are having a partner where we can align Joint Communications to a regulator where we can educate d Regulators um about what we're doing together um these discussions got a whole lot easier um and I think for us it's it's going to be a process maybe we're going to take more and more

responsibility on processes inhouse um but in order to have something as I said the having the customer in mind being first with the customer being quick um I think this partnership approach is good for us and and all the teams internally have learned a lot uh bit Panda from us our guys from bit panda and I think this joint Learning Journey will will help us over time to get more confident in in broadening up and taking more responsibility and risk on our own sure thank you lookas that just as interest interest me to understand I mean you want of uh bit Panda was one of the early movers how did you ex how was the exchange with The Regulators back then

were they open to discuss how did you guys come up with a correct framework and Licensing and how did you comply maybe you can give us a bit of a back back story to that absolutely I think the backstory goes back and our bit Banner is end of this year 10 years old U it will be 10 years old uh into the space and 10 years ago as probably all of you can imagine there was nothing else than no Clarity at all so everybody was not even knowing on the regulator side what crypto is and in general how to treat that um and we learned very early on that the most important way in that regards is to deal them as partners I mean a regulator a supervisor and it doesn't matter if it's in Austria in Germany in France in Spain or in any

other European market is always just about understanding the risk uh he's supervising um and uh about the pability um of you and uh the collaboration with you so I think the most important takeaway in these early days for us was it's important to manage these type of stakeholders so that they just understand you totally and understand you fully to assess the risks of asset Pander for example for them as a regulator and and that learning in our early days enabled us to not just acquire 13 different crypto registrations and licenses across Europe including a German buffing license but also to be miy2 compliant with our Securities brokage license and e-money licenses why because it's always the

same it's about assessing risks and managing risk from a regulator perspective and therefore for us it's about managing our Regulators uh which just only can be in collaboration and not against them and this also just to related over for stuff just discussed right it's the same with uh within a bank and their relationship to a regulator and when it comes to how to offer crypto as an S class uh out from a bank to the customers it's exactly about the same dialogue and we and our partners we're always approaching the relevant supervisors together to exactly do that to explain it to them and to make them able to assess the risks assoc associated with it yeah thanks thanks for that so I want to uh pose a general question for each of the panelists and I

I recommend ORS to start we work our way down the panel so looking forward uh into the future what do you see being the the the biggest opportunities for the banks in the crypto sector and do you see a trend towards more collaboration between traditional Banks and crypto firms or are banks going to do this alone or is this this this uh working together uh a vital part um I would like to emphasize a bit on you know uh a challenge because opportunities I mean look in this room there are many opportunities um on a challenger side concerning traditional banking I think one challenge we face is lack of knowledge to be honest yeah I mean uh the talent and the knowledge uh

when it comes to crypto to digital assets cannot be found usually in traditional Banks right it's uh it's found in crypto companies it's found in fintech it's it's found here and um I think uh you know the I wouldn't even call it a trend as you described will it there be a trend continuing I think it will be um a situation that is going to last for for quite some while because traditional Banks you know need um and I think it was led out by Kurt earlier traditional banks will need to to tap into the expertise and where do you get it you get it in exactly these kind of companies so this is something uh we will be doing as lbbw um

another way why we should do that is um we need really you know expertise and knowledge on the second line of defense topics and I'm not going to to say you know that compliance and audit and legal and so on have no expertise in digital assets but those are for sure not the enthusiasts which are in the room but these are the ones that you have to convince and we do that by you know partnering and um this is the way we we're going to do it forward so you see there's going to be a deeper uh integration or collaboration between the banks and these take companies from my perspective clear yes Jean Mark yeah very clear for for us the biggest opportunities are basically

in stable coin custody derivative and lending I think that's massive and working with uh external service providers in order to enhance those offerings for sure of course as always you need to to be pragmatic and pick the best of of the what is out there know what is your own job where your strength lies and then try to figure out the best and quickest way to deliver solutions to to clients thank you Kurt I would argue that um offering digital assets as an investment class to retail customers is is going to be a must have for everyone

over time um nobody questions whether retail Banks offer savings books or whatsoever right it's just a must have and I think that's going to develop and and to the second part of the question I think not just in this space but generally we'll see a lot more Partnerships between traditional banking institutions and in fintech because um let's admit it what we're not good at is Building Technology um there are people that are a lot better than Building Technology than traditional banking groups and and I think we're realizing this over time so I I'm very positive that this trend uh will not remain a trend but it's going to be a fact that we're looking for the best in the industry to partner with us uh maybe just a quick interjection Lucas in the

future when these exchanges become so big what do you see the hurdle of an exchange becoming a bank versus a bank becoming an exchange or integrating the exchange service themselves I think what we will see in the crypto World exactly is a split like in the traditional financial service industry exchanges will be liquidity Pro providers and the liquidity will also go to the traditional exchanges also for crypto as an class I'm convinced and companies like bit Panda we are a crypto broker we are a crypto platform facilitating exactly such Services we are a platform provider and we an infrastructure provider to to Banks and other institutions uh who want to tap into the AA class and tap into on chain activity in the end okay coming back to the general question Anastasia the

opportunities over the next 5 years and the collaboration between uh traditional Banks and crypto firms what do you see happening I think there are three ways building buying or partnering and depending on how big the development teams are or what are the internal priorities every institution including both Banking and crypto firms will take one of those paths if you're great in building and smaller fxs and crypto we do tend to be better in that then we'll partner with someone or banks will acquire us we already saw MasterCard acquiring Cipher Trace as an example and Cipher Trace same as chain analysis it's one of those backbone services that need to exist and run effectively for institutional to adopt even crypto so

when it comes to Partnerships I do and overall mergers next five years will be filled with consolidations crypto firms consolidating with one another Banks buying and selling different different arms and Venture arms as colleagues already said crypto here is to stay that both retail andme and institutional interest is massive and with M and with this regulatory Clarity that I'm keep keep emphasizing ing it will only stay so the path will be remember the times where finex were competing with banks and then a lot of them became very big they went bankrupt or Banks bought them Krypto will be the same uh Lucas you have a different opinion I think going bankrupt hopefully

not in crypto anymore that wave is hopefully behind us um but I think fingers crossed I believe so I think it will be a consolidation game right um a consolidation game why because suddenly we see one thing companies which we which have developed the crypto industry as of today only due to one reason that Banks and the whole value chain of the traditional fincial service industry was not touching at all the technology and the asset class of crypto um that was the only reason why players like us even exist right otherwise I mean qu was would have offered it directly and the business never would have occurred so long story short I think yes the consolidation game is absolutely imminent and will happen across the whole value chain um and especially I think it will start in Europe due to

exeed regulatory Clarity so that will be a very very interesting game over the next couple of years while it will bring in the end to from a customer perspective the highest value possible because it will integrate an high risk high yield asset class crypto and also the advantages of blockchain technology for stable coins for payment tokens for any other type of token of tokenized asset across the whole value chain of the uh traditional financial service industry and that only can be beneficial if you get new technology um into that old world sure so I want to open uh the questions up to the public if anyone out there being an individual or a corporate uh wanting to open a bank account for

crypto services or um High net worth individuals if you have any questions to the panelists please feel free and raise your hand no question so then um coming back to the panelists we don't have any questions from the public uh anything else you want to touch on to elaborate on the questions posed before no so then I would suggest uh wrapping up with a 30 to 40 second summary um if there's one takeaway that the audience can take with them today regarding the bank's Readiness to offer

crypto Services what would that be one takeaway I think is exactly looking on the business case doing digital assets or tokenization for the sake of to doing tokenization of digital assets is completely useless what it really is about is what is the value ad you integrate as part of your business um why because uh in the end it is a revenue driving game um and I think realizing that is helping you convincing a lot of uh second line functions as I already said and other stakeholders in the bank uh on exactly that business case and in the end it BS down to exactly dat it's just the business case thanks Anastasia crypto Banking and digital assets are now being used in the same

sentence without negative connotations as it used to be and first of all it's a very amazing achievement even though there are still so many hurdles for operators on the ground and companies that sometimes want to try it and it can come from their inexperience or lack of knowledge or maybe some providers that they're not happy with but it's very interesting to see this industry is that I remember participating in the conferences five six years ago this panel would be wild we would be almost screaming at each other and now we're sitting at discussing how we're Co integrating and services our customer base this is wonderful I would say h the revenue case that Lucas described is based uh on a very clear customer demand uh and numbers and and facts um show that and I

think it's our job um especially in retail banking to to give customers freedom of choice and and crypto and digital assets and investing in those is a choice customers are are uh are making and and that's why we're here to serve them I would say Bitcoin is no longer a slang world when you are sitting in a bank we are clearly uh behind a no return point where um again Solutions and services will be brought to clients uh depending again on the banks it will be U different areas different use cases is but uh clearly uh it's going to happen anytime soon and sooner than what people may

think uh given what we've heard on the panel and what we've seen you know in terms of transactions in the last weeks um I think I could clearly tell that you know we have left the face of you know MVPs and poc's behind us uh we're talking business here and we're seeing natural deal flows and ticket sizes and this is what you know I take away and where I'm going to you know see some some more deals to come and this will continue yeah and I'm sure when we meet next year we're not discussing you know 100 or 300 million deals but but larger ones maybe even you know below the 500 so so thank you all thank you to my panelists I think in order to summary

it's fair to say that the banks are ready the banks are already offering Services either on their own initiative or through Integrations with existing changes so there's deep collaboration in that sense and then if you want to take it a step further there's many other Solutions out there offering kyc AML tools to crypto service providers and Banks enhancing their ability to actually challenge this uh and navigate this regulatory landscape so yeah banks are ready and it will be interesting to see how things evolve in the next 5 years and I just want to thank all my panelists uh for their contribution today and everyone else enjoy the rest of the uh convention thank you thank you