Balancing Innovation and Simplicity as a Crypto Founder | Kain Warwick

Transcript

like empirical evidence is the most valuable thing you can have in the world right all of the theories all of the models all of systems you can build to try and understand something nothing is as powerful as empirical evidence and so if you go and build a thing and say do you like this and everyone says no you go H okay interesting if you go and build something and then you keep building and building and building extending and extending and extending and you come back and you say do you like this and they say no you've wasted two years of your life right it's crazy alrighty everybody what's up we got Kane uh Kane no longer introducing you as uh synthetics we've got infinex right awesome that's right is it a dictator of

uh benevolent dictator of infinex or we're we're dropping the dictator unfortunately I I think we um front ran that that whole thing there was never a dictatorship we went straight to decentralized governance so I didn't even get a chance to be the dictator unfortunately fancy so Bor to but that's okay littleit dude how's it feel to be a like an eth OG still still out here as chth would say in the arena or I guess maybe that was Teddy Roosevelt who then uh who originally said it but we can credit that you know it's interesting uh I've I've tweeted about this a little bit right like coming out of uh the um the bare Market I definitely feel um

underexposed to e and and even BTC um you know for a whole bunch of reasons like just structural reasons um especially on the synthetic side you know one of the challenges with synthetics is that there's like built-in leverage right um but you know in the bare Market you got to pay that debt down and so um a lot of my eth and BTC went to paying down uh debt in in the synthetics ecosystem uh you know like late 22 even into 23 so your own debts or the debts of yeah paying down yeah everyone's got their own debt in synthetics right like you know this this built-in leverage you got a mint susd against snx right so um you know uh Leverage is a A Dangerous Drug um and even when it feels you know like it's

not that much leverage you're still you're still levered uh if you're borrowing against volatile assets so um you know definitely lost cycle um some lessons about uh about high leverage there and uh you know trying to basically um rebuild the E stack again I mean dude if you feel underexposed I i' I definitely feel underexposed if you're underexposed damn um how does it feel like maybe less on the investing side but just on the building side I mean we were talking about U like we were kind of laughing before we hit record about this this Kobe piece and you know I feel like a lot of blockworks employees were like who's who's Kobe uh and I was like man that's that's a trip and I bet a lot of people are like who's Kane so I mean how like how do you think about just

still being out here building like still trying to like get attention and like do you got to do the marketing thing you got to go hire the people like how how's the grind right now know I think it's interesting like the ogs know the ogs but new people that came in uh you know during the late bu and stayed through the bear uh often don't right you know so Kobe's an interesting one like he's had his account locked uh on on Twitter for a while now I'm not sure exactly how long but um you know that cuts off attention right like that's the main uh you know point for for people knowing who you are right especially if you're not tweeting much through the bare Market you know on people's radar um I think the interesting thing on the eth defi OG side is like you know the the

three-year defi be Market that was uh you know foreshadowed by DJ Spartan has turned into like the fouryear yeah D5 be Mark like it's still going right like I don't think def's had its Resurgence yet um mainly because eth hasn't had its Resurgence so you know um nfts I think took a lot of the wind out of uh D5 last cycle and and meme coins have kind of taken a bit of the the wind out of the sales of defi this cycle so you know there will be a moment where uh defi has its Resurgence but it hasn't happened yet and so you know if you're a defog like um you know Robert Lesner or uh you obviously people know Hayden I think un SC is is so big that you really can't avoid U knowing who Hayden is but you

know there's a lot of people uh that were you know Prett defi summer that the average person in crypto today who's slinging meme coins would not know who they are yeah yeah it interesting one of I was asking one of our employees the other day about um about a uh oh no I mentioned stanie because I we were talking about speakers for permission list they're like oh stonie like he's uh he he created lens right I was like yeah well and a he's like oh a I think I've heard of that um I was like oh man living in a different world right now um yeah are like what what's the decision what was the decision like to you know if you look at like stony's got aan lens Lesnar's got he he was doing compound walked away from that to do super St and kind of

handed over the keys to to Jason over there um you know Hayden's still doing Unis swap um like what was the decision like to you're you're not doing synthetics at all right you're you're 100% on on infinex yeah that's right yeah um not even on councils anymore um I even it's so bad that I forgot to vote in the last election they're gonna they're gonna string me up fully out that's good yeah I'm fully out like I like I knew that Epoch was getting close but like we were so close to launching with infinex that um you know I was I was like i' you know got to vote and then I was like oh man that was yesterday oops um so uh yeah it's it's really hard this is um I would say probably the the third time in my career

where uh I've had two different projects or companies running there was a period where blue shift my uh payments company that I built in 2014 that was an on-ramp to crypto uh in Australia for for a lot of the um crypto exchanges and and brokerages I was running blue shift and starting Haven at the same time and it's just a nightmare uh it's really really hard to split focus and you sort of do a disservice to both so um it didn't take too long I think it was somewhere in 2018 where I I went to Blue ship board and I was like look I just can't do this anymore I need to hand it over to someone else uh I'm not doing a good job of of kind of running this and uh you know I think it's kind of a similar situation where I just had to like say

goodbye to to synthetics and you know even things like there were many years where I read every single message in Discord in the synthetics Discord you know I I was responding to everything you know I was I was really on top of all the different governance things uh and over the last year as infinex has ramped up especially once I took over as a working group lead it's just been impossible and so I'm like I can't even stay in touch with what's happening at which point my opinions are no longer informed opinions so you can't really trust them but people will so it's actually a net negative for me to come out and say something that's uninformed and then people go oh he's probably right and like I was never probably right but now I'm definitely not right so you just have to let it go and and

let governance kind of play itself out nice that's great yeah I remember I I think it was summer 2020 or maybe it was fall maybe it's the end of 2020 you guys were debating what to name the synthetics front end like when I when I think I still almost when I think of infinex it's like oh it's the synthetics front end so tell me take us through that journey of being like hey synthetics needs this uh like better you like front end needs like a good user experience for synthetics all the way until like now I mean you sent like I was doing the I was in the little test group um and like that's when I had this like oh [ __ ] moment of like oh this is a full this is a this is a platform it's got like best in-class account

abstraction it's multi-chain deployment like take me through that journey of going from like synthetics front end to oh wow there's actually a massive opportunity here yeah so the the original thesis was that we have solved the protocol level functionality problem right and in order to solve that there were a whole bunch of things that needed to go right we needed l2s we needed you know um even 4844 was part of this right that like you needed cheap enough fast enough uh execution that a um you know an exchange that was running on an L2 could compete credibly with a database like the Delta wasn't so large that it was like I'm only using this for ideological Reasons I'm not actually

using this because it's a better experience right um and you know a whole bunch of things like liquidity and you know number of assets and number of markets and all of that stuff over you know it took a long time took longer than we all thought it would right but eventually we got to a point where it's like okay this thing is real right and you look at dydx you look at GMX um you know even hyper liquid now um you know in synthetics there's a number of different exchanges that like on paper can compete with a centralized exchange and yet if you go back a year ago and this is where I sort of had this realization binance is still beating all of the onchain exchanges 50 to one by volume right so we're in a bare Market it's only crypto native people

left we've got the tech like the tech is there right and yet despite all of that we're just getting absolutely chopped up by binance still right and so I was like all right something has to change here something wrong like what is it I went back to First principles and I was like it's actually the onboarding experience people who are used to trading on binance are used to the web to off they're used to a username and password and you know MFA and all of that stuff and there's a lot of them they just don't trade onchain or don't do onchain transactions at all and they're still crypto natives they've still been in crypto for years that their version of crypto is just binance though right trading per or spot on binance and so I was like all right let's let's actually

test this let's build a centralized rapper around a decentralized protocol and see if we can bridge that ux Gap that was that was the original thesis right um it took about like three weeks to realize that that was insane um and and not a good idea um and that we actually didn't even need to do that really um that we could potentially not make it completely centralized and so I think that by the time we got to like late last year we had realized that there were a number of different uh infrastructure plays that have been built in the bare Market that could allow us to connect them together in such a way as to bridge the ux gap without requiring centralization and so

that's when we were like all right let's pivot to infinex and once we realized that that we could actually bridge this ux Gap and build a ux layer on top of dii it was like well it feels silly to just build this for an exchange right there's a whole bunch of other stuff that uh is very useful right um for us to do um and so so you know whether it's like yield bearing assets like Athena or lending like a or you know spot swaps like Jupiter or Unis swap there's just too many things that you can do with this to focus on a per de and so that's what happens so we we basically uh you know got to a point where we're like this needs to be an actual platform not an exchange play who who's the Wii here do you have co-founders or is it like a

small team and you're you're the solo founder what's the what's the who's the Wii yeah it's a good question so so when first started this uh the the person who was building it with me um was working in my family office and I was like hey do you want to build this thing with me you know should take us a month or so uh to just build like a s class front on top of synthetics right the level of like insanity that's required right yeah so it it was just the two-year anniversary of like launching blockworks research and Mike and I dug up some old messages to each other and we're like we think we think it'll cost 200k and we'll need three people and we could probably run like that for a while and now we are like know 25 people and millions later

like I'm like all right I think you know there's a level of like irrational exuberance that's required uh to um you know start something right that like if you knew how painful it would be you never would stop I never do it right um and so so that you know there was definitely that component right I was like oh a couple people together throw an interface up you know um we we should be able to smash this out in like a couple months right by the time we realized what the actual opportunity was to build this ux layer on top of dpy I was like okay now this is a multi-year exercise we started you know I allocated more Capital to it I've been bootstrapping it myself um but I allocated more Capital to it and we went out and like Aqua hired a couple of

teams and you know we've built a a team now of like 35 people W so it's a big it's a big crewp um that are running this yeah I put in about $225 million um uh so far um now we haven't used all of that like we're not insane right um but the reason why I did that was because I once I realized I was like all right this thing is way bigger than uh we thought um it's going to need a lot of funding it's going to need um you know a lot of people uh there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be uh built um and I just wanted to make sure that we had no constraints basically um and at that point I was like all right I'm all in um so so the person who started it with me um was uh was the working

group lead when we launched uh you know the the governance process um a bunch of things have happened in the interim and it just got to the point where I was like this thing is too big I need to actually step in and run this working group there's too many people um you know it needs someone who's experienced in uh in depi experienced in crypto and I was like all right time to time to step up it wasn't my intention like had I known that I was going to be running this thing and sleeping four hours a night I probably would have just said I'll let someone else do it um but you know once once I realized the opportunity I was like all right I got to dive in yeah so the way you describe it is interesting you the way you describe it is like the UI or the ux

layer for defi as opposed to binance on chain or something like that yeah I think that uh the the thesis is basically that you have a bunch of people building protocols right um and you know uh some that we're very close to right and they probably wouldn't be offended uh to hear this but like at one good example is Wormhole right Wormhole is built this very solid protocol right it Powers a bunch of things um it you know is being extended to support like cross-chain queries like it's a really hard thing to build at a protocol level um and then you use the portal Bridge interface and you're like this is incredibly painful to use right and I

don't think that would be surprising for them to hear right like it just is um we now that we've built this ux layer and we have the platform right uh we have already started working on bridging functionality um and the bridging functionality that we built there's a there's an early demo um which uh you'll probably get access to because I think you're in the testing group you probably get access to in the next couple of weeks it just works and and the reason why it just works is because we have a bunch of middleware that we've built um we've you know abstracted gas we've Ed all of these things and so we can be a lot more opinionated on the flows that we're we're enabling right um and we've just got a lot of people who are very focused

on the user experience and and we sort of see it as the platform is is ready our Integrations into other protocols that are on chain um is where the secret source is right like that's like our ability to integrate something and build a better front-end experience end to endend from on boarding all the way through to you know onchain transactions is where we're going to win and we've got the right team for it we've gone out and looked for people that have that domain expertise rather than people who are let's say you know onchain focused right whether it's uh you know programs on salant or smart contracts on on ethereum yeah how much easier is it to build now get going from like zero to

one than it was building synthetics in the beginning uh it is a lot easier um there's certain things uh um certain tooling like Canon for example is is one of the tools that we use uh for multi-chain deployments um it just makes it a lot easier is it easy no it's still very hard right uh I think the challenge is right that in early days of synthetics we were struggling you know to deploy 50 contracts onto mainnet right like that process would take us like several days sometimes right um You can go back and look at you know hey we started the deployment in Discord and then like three days later like and we've just finished the deployment every I'm like good job right U and and so you know that process was really hard now

though we're talking about simultaneous cross chain deployments on you know five evm chains and salana right um synchronizing a bunch of middleware and a bunch of offchain infrastructure and having all of that go live you know when when we did our launch there was a countdown timer which for me as like a d was petrifying because I've never seen any a defi actually launched at the right time and so there's this countdown timer we're like counting down it's like this feels really dangerous and then the countdown timer ended and it worked it was all it was all deployed it was all there and it just worked right um so you know yes it's much easier to build but I think the scope of what we're trying to build has gotten much much larger but for the user that's

great because it means that we're actually trying to solve the user experience problems that previously we couldn't even tackle because it was just too hard to even get stuff on chain um so you know the the scope of what we're trying to do is much larger um so I think the difficulty is probably equivalent it's just the experience that you get as the end user is far better know yeah tell can you tell me like as specifically as possible like what you guys are using like do you like like what did you say Canon or like do you use privy like what what are these apps that make it so easy and like what are the tools that make it easy yeah so the the architecture uh is um and this one of the big decisions we made was to go with pis so we we had a number of delays

and I think that you know obviously delays are never great but sometimes they play into your hands and I think in this particular instance it definitely played into our hands so we were originally using uh a couple of different uh options for um Key Management um and how we synchronized keys and how a user would uh execute a transaction right so there's a bunch of different ways you can do this keys in browser things like privy you know um but what we realized is that P keys were actually ready and so uh we decided to go with pass keys and and the advantage that we have by launching with pass Keys only and no passwords is we will never have Legacy password support if you were a

platform that launched last year let's say prior to June last year you didn't really have an option py support was not there you had to actually launch launch with passwords and so you now have this dual track system where you have Legacy users with passwords that you've got to wean off onto POS keys because it's just that much better of an experience but you you know it might take you years to do that so by delaying launch and and waiting uh for the cross um platform POS key support to get better and it's and it's I would say very good now um you know there's a few little gaps but from most platforms especially on Apple um it's it's very robust so POS Keys is the starting point a user has a pass key the

pass key is you know similar to like EA or Hardware wet or something like that you've got this cryptographic uh scheme that is connected to um a platform that stores Keys the platform that stores the keys is called TurnKey it's made by the same people who built coinbase custody so the pass key connects to your own signing key that's then connected to an onchain account that's cross chain so you have uh an account that's deployed to base optimism mainnet and then salana as well um and that that key that you have is an EA that's stored in in TurnKey that allows you to interact with your account and then we use gelato for

gas abstraction um uh you know so basically you have this like gasless signing uh mechanism where you know you log in with a POS key we create a session for you and then within that session you can do you know a whole bunch of things right you can claim your points and um you can you know do swaps or trades like this is obviously future functionality but you would just sign in once with a path key once you've got your session initiated then you can do a whole bunch of things if you then decide that you want to do something that requires some kind of like off escalation uh then you would need to sign in with your P key again and maybe use some other MFA or maybe you use an EA or some escalation process to

withdraw right and so we can build kind of a role-based security system that looks more like what you would expect in web 2 yeah right um so you can have sub accounts and you know you can have okay you're allowed to do you know these functions and then you've got an analyst who's only allowed to do you know a subset of those functions so there's all kinds of things that we can do um where we can leverage all of the work that's going into like web2 alt and web2 security and replicate that but with still the account living onchain yeah it's really nice maybe I'll share my screen in a second and show people the uh just like the onboarding it's actually really really clean

um uh let's see what is the okay so that's the stack what about like the integration layer like so okay so once you're in like you guys want to launch the ability to bridge between like you know optimism and polygon and salana and then Do a Swap and then maybe like take a a borrow like what how do you think about Integrations with different people like for bridging right do you like do you build a bridge do you like partner with Wormhole like swapping like do you do like a I don't I don't even know like Unis swap hooks or whatever like how do you think about integrating so at the moment it's a very kind of ad hoc uh manual process um so for our initial bridging we're using Wormhole um so we've basically used Wormhole um uh ccq a combination of ccq which is their cross chain queries um

and the standard Wormhole bridging um which other people use but then have built like liquidity Bridges uh on top of right so we don't have liquidity bridging yet we likely will either partner with someone that that has liquidity Bridges or build our own liquidity Bridges um but the way that the architecture works is you have an account it's yours right your assets are in that account on any number of chains right on any one of the six chains so you could have usdc on four different chains right um but it's the same account controlled by the same uh EA right that's stored in inter turn key that you control via your POS key so for you if you want to you know move funds from based optimism all you need

to do is just authorize that with posy right and then the platform itself figures out the routes and and where things need to go um once we've got uh like functionality that's uh that's being integrated um for example curve swaps so you know stable coin swaps because we've started with stable coins um you know USD and both wrapped and bridged USC we need a way to do uh like you know stable coin swamps that's kind of the the most obvious uh functionality so what we've done is we've created a piece of middleware like a smart contract that lives outside of your account right that you can opt into Ena it so you can say Okay I want to upgrade my account to

support curve swaps right and then you've got the curve contracts that live outside of that and the advantage to this is that you don't have uh your account with um you know uh specific permissions you've got another uh another contract that's been deployed that basically understands the interface between the the smart account that controls your funds that holds your funds and curve and so uh we can then upgrade that integration of curve changes so it's basically these middleware contracts that sit outside of your account that are bridged between uh your account and curve your account and Unis swap your account and you have the ability to enable these and set

permissions on like a per uh you know um protocol level like a per integration level or opt out of it you can say actually I don't want to integrate with cream Finance which I guess apparently no one knows what that is today I sound like a boomer but um you know you might be like look that's too high risk for me I don't I don't I want to switch that off right that functionality I don't want um and so you have a lot of granular control um when you go to your security settings of like which features do you want to enable which ones do you not want to enable which ones do you want to uh require escalation which ones you happy to do you know with just a simple toy sign it huh that's really cool do you think that like if you play

this out maybe three four five years into the future you guys will start having to chip away at the stack like you'll go deeper into building some of those protocols yourself to maybe capture more of the flow or have better margin or what whatever it may be I certainly hope not yeah that would be dark I I really hope we don't have to do that like there's so much Innovation you know like my example before right there are people that are crypto native right or whatever we would call that crypto native they're on crypto Twitter they just live in binance so the only functionality that they ever get from onchain activity is what binance gives them right the like scraps that binance throws them to say like oh yeah you can do this now you do eat staking or

whatever right right but like 95% of the fun onchain things fantasy. toop right probably not going to get integrated into bance right that level of innovation those onchain games and onchain uh you know um protocols that are being deployed every day you want to be able to access but for a person who's lived in binance their entire life they're like H I don't know about this metos thing I'm just not doing it right and even you know okay so you say fine privy right um so you can sign in with privy there's really harsh tradeoffs with that right like you know there's a level of like uh you know risk around like custody Etc so um you know the onboarding process uh for a lot of these

um protocols that have been trying to like bridge the ux gap um in my opinion makes some trade-offs that I think are not ideal right so we would love to be able to integrate something like fantasy. toop are we going to build something like fantasy dotop no like we're just not right um it's a lot of effort to do that and we're never going to be able to out compete all of the Innovation on chain we just want to be able to give that Innovation a larger audience right to bridge the ux gap so we become the ux layer so people can be easily on boarded everyone's got an infinex account there's a ton of tvl all their assets are stored in there and I'll give you another example right like from 2021 all the people who got on boarded into nfts right but we're not on boarded

into good opsc they didn't have Hardware wallets you know they they uh they fomed into nfts and it was enough fomo that was created to get them onchain but not in a safe way right and so the amount of funds that were drained and lost and you know seed phrases Etc if if something like infinex had existed back then and nfts were integrated into infinex we would have just connected you to open SE or to you know blur or to what you know whatever uh whatever nft platform you wanted to trade on and you wouldn't get be able to get fished because POS keys are much more resistant to fishing and

to you know bad links and and what have you because you're actually in this kind of wall Garden that protects you from someone being able to get you to you can't sign a transaction there's no malicious signing You're not signing random transactions you're you're only touching things that are already vetted and you've op into right and so yeah you can go and sell an nft on openc but you can't accidentally sell the wrong nft right because the integration has been done properly and so like literally hundreds of millions of dollars would have been saved through that you know nft Mania if something like infinex had existed who where where do you get the tvl from you guys are so you're at like what 80 million 85 90 million tvl right now yeah almost almost 90 I think almost

90 after what six days seven days uh today is the eth day eth day that's good and how do you know how many users like 10,000 roughly uh there are about 7,000 accounts created um one so one interesting thing right we had 200,000 people on our uh weight list right um and we were kind of curious to see if anyone had worked out how to do a bought farmed P key on boarding and it turns out that you actually kind of come the tech isn't there poskis are so new that like bot Farms haven't worked out how to do it and there's like browser based constraints and stuff so you know could you just sit there with a team of 20

people in front of laptops pressing buttons yes of course right like you know the the phone meme of like aund phones on Big W there's much better there's much easier things that you can go civil attack right now exactly so you know one thing is we we deliberately uh created an incentive scheme that didn't incentify cbls that was that was step one right uh and then step two is positiv are actually uh you know a really resistant uh measure against cbles um and so we have uh I think seven or eight thousand users of which about 50% of deposited funds um which is great right like you know we're paying all the gas um you know we're not having cils come in and like drain gas Etc so you know it's been a very uh sort of

efficient process and we're getting a better sense of like how many actual users do we have because yeah of course you can create a couple of accounts and there's some people that are like name squatting but you know it's not like orders of magnitude out our user base versus the actual humans that are using the protocol yeah let's uh let's go into sybles right now so you had this tweet thread we can we can link in the show notes if people want to read the whole thing is from May 3rd said man layer zero you're really going to make me write up another thread huh um and it was about Cil so uh just talking about how like no look no one wants to reward these sybles but depending on the game sibles are either not a big deal or catastrophic if the game has capped

rewards per address or non linear reward scaling sys must be killed with fire but if the rewards are not scaled or uncapped then cbles have no advantage in fact they're disadvantage because it costs more than just doing all the activity on one address I won't read the whole thread but maybe you can just expand on like yeah your thoughts um on just like Cil attacks and like cbles and like I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it right after all these years Cil or no C cil's right yeah yeah that's right people say yeah so so uh the the I like this comes from a long long history of learning lessons uh in building incentive schemes right like we did we did so many of these different schemes in synthetics to

incentivize different behavior in different ways at different times um you know in different groups of users U and one thing that I learned and one thing that I've said many times you know in Discord and and um on Twitter is like anything that you build that can be gained will be gained crypto is the most adversarial place um you know the incentives are so powerful that if you build something that's gameable it will be gamed it's not like oh let's hope that it's not gamed or maybe no one will notice like if it's a genuine thing that has value people will game it right like there are thousands of people scouring crypto at all hours of the day looking for the most minute Advantage like from

an effic a market efficiency standpoint um you know uh gaming incentives in crypto is is a very efficient market so okay what do you do with that information right well you have to really be informed when you're designing an incentive scheme right you really need to take that into account if you just YOLO build something in hope you're just GNA get run over right and so uh the challenge is though that there's trade-offs like there trade-offs all the way down right so if you say okay we're going to avoid Cil really the only way to avoid cils is to do a linear distribution right but then that uh you know helps whales right and so you're going to have a situation

where people either say you're just saving the whales right you're protecting whales and and giving them a huge Advantage right or you have a situation where civils run over all of your users and take everything and there's no avoiding that TR off like it's a very clear tradeoff and you have to pick where you want to be on that Continuum the problem is people try and have it both ways they sort of say let's build a thing that kind of incentivizes civils right and makes it look like we're you know uh disadvantaging whales right because then that the Optics will look good and then people turn up and they get nothing and they're like what just happened right like all my money was stolen right and it's like the ciling ends up looking good for metrics as well right and so you know when

you're a project that's out there that's designed an incentive scheme that absolutely incentivizes Cil and knowingly goes out and talks about the metrics that you've incentivized for the civiles to do and then gets to the very end of that game and goes oh man how did I don't even know what's going on here how did this happen right like sorry guys that you got nothing and that a bunch of vaults got everything this is crazy how could anyone have predicted this it's like no no everyone could have predicted this you did this on purpose and then you talked about the metrics and then you sit there and play dumb and try and pretend like you had nothing to do with it right and so you either have to be honest with the community and say we're going to do a distribution that

disadvantages civils the trade-off here is that yes there will be some wh accounts that get a lot but at least those wh accounts will be real people right it won't be a bom Farm um now at the end of the day all of this is inefficient right and and all of this inefficiency comes from the fact that you cannot get tokens in the hands of your users other than giving them away for free and like that just is a terrible idea like it's a it's a fine idea as like a slight bonus for some people that were early and paying attention right as your only mechanism for aligning yourself with the community it's horrific right and and we see what happens the community is like you've

given away a bunch of money to people who are mercenary and have dump I actually care about this project and I'm aligned I got nothing now I hate you like no one wins right I saw your Tweet the dimension airdrop and you're I think it's Dimension you're like because I wasn't in the Discord and didn't click confirm or something like I didn't even get this but I you know but I was early supporting I think that was you something like that so yeah I think uh it was actually my my kids they pudgy Penguins holders and uh and you know it's my responsibility to go and claim the airdrops that all the Pudgies get on half because they're seven and four um and you know I don't I don't want them to get to to 18 and be like Dimensions worth a trillion dollars and you missed

the airdrop you idiot so um but yeah again like you know you have to you have to set up the the incentives in a way that actually gets you the behavior that you want right if you set up the incentives in a way that gets you the behavior that you don't want but then pretend like that's not the case people will see through it it's you know people aren't idiots so what so what's the be uh like what's the behavior that you want early activity you want alignment you want alignment right like we have a solution to this right which is like alment yeah you want like if you care about my project you should be able to uh get alignment with that project right so the the problem is that people are too scared to let people get alignment to to

get tokens other than giving them away for free right that's the only mechanis M that we're willing to um to use and so if you're only willing to give away tokens in order to get the right number of tokens to the people who are aligned you have to give away so many tokens that it actually ends up hurting everyone right why is that can you explain that okay so so let's say you have um let's say you have a thousand people right who are aligned with your project and so you go and you create an incentive scheme that is intended to get tokens in the hands of those thousand people yep but you can't sell them tokens you have to give them away for free because of the because of the

regulations around selling because because of interpretation like because everyone's afraid of the uncertainty and lack of clarity right like in theory I mean there are solutions here Eko for example right like Eko is trying to solve this problem of okay how do we do this in a compliant way given that we don't have Clarity you know trying to find a way through this right so you know I'm I'm bullish on that right I'm bullish on anyone who's trying to solve this but just throwing your hands up and saying well the regulations are unclear so you know we just got to try and avoid anything to me doesn't make sense right I think I think there are ways to um let people who are early to your project get alignment that don't involve selling all the tokens to VCS like that's not the

way to do it either right and so so you know let's imagine a hypothetical project that has a thousand people in a Discord right that are super bullish on this project right um the easiest way would be to say say hey all of you people who get this project we're going to sell you tokens at the SE Brown Val let's call it 30 mil or something right and you just sell them tokens and that's it done end of story you lock them up for six months or 12 months or whatever they've all got alignment they go out and they're excited about the project they use it they tell their friends you know they help build hype like problem solved right but you're too concerned to do that because of regulatory uncertainty so you say look guys I know

there's a thousand of you in the Discord and I know this is an early stage project and you know we think the vow is 30 mil or whatever uh but we can only give you tokens so we want you to go out and do a bunch of weird stuff right jump through these hoops deposit tvl like do all of this stuff right and we're going to drag it out for as long as possible right because we want to gain the metrics and so we do all this stuff we come with this convoluted scheme to get tokens in the hands of these thousand people that were early right kicks off a bunch of people come in and inevitably game this incentive right there are either whales with tbll that are just trying to extract value they don't care about the project they're just looking for the thing or they're

bot Farmers or sibles or some combination thereof right and they turn up like locusts and they take this free pile of money that's been put there and they leave like a couple of scraps right and the thousand people that were in your Discord are sitting around being like this is all I get what's going on here like this is not I would have given you money for the thing and now you know you've actually given away your your early di hard cohort in community is now pissed at you and then they're burned yeah they're burned they're like guys like come on you know I would I would happily have spent ,000 to get $1,000 worth of uh tokens right um instead you forced me to go through this thing and I

didn't even get what I expected to get I got some you know far less right so I get $10 worth of tokens for jumping through all these hoops right um and meanwhile they're watching you know VCS uh buy the tokens uh at you know the same V and like you know they're losing on both sides right they've got people now that have got a ton of tokens um you've had to give away 15 20% of the token Supply to try and get 1% in the hands of your thousand you know best people and it didn't even work like this whole structure is just broken in so many different ways right um and so you know the end result is that we need to try to find a way to get people

alignment with the project early enough when they're still early um and and you know we have to find a solution to it because you and again Echo is one solution to it I think there are other solutions to it um you know we're trying to think through how we can do it um because just doing these uh you know yield farming games is is never going to be enough and you're never going to get the alignment it's a it's an incredibly inefficient way of getting alignment with your community yeah can you put on your like crypto historian hat and like when when did this flip because I so you know there's a lot of like that there's all okay so Echo is a solution there's like a quick tweet here that would say ico's worth a solution which some would

say is right and some would say is wrong and then you could say maybe Ico like the post it all kind of flipped post Ico era but I'm very curious to get your take on like when this it's it's Capital formation and Community alignment are the two things we're talking about here exactly so you know back in the Ico days right um you would do an Ico you would do a private sale it would be very compressed into like a three to six month window right it wouldn't be a multi-year process right it would be a three to six- month window You' propose some scheme you would do the Ico you would also carve out tokens for an air trop right and and you know that was a bonus to the community that we're paying attention it wasn't the only alignment

that they could get right and this is the critical thing right um it was it was like Hey if you really love the project buy tokens and also if you do these things which will help us you can get some extra tokens as a bonus for your you know support cool done right and then go out do a tge um you know it's all rolled up it's a single sale the Delta between the cheapest price that was bought off market and the tge price would be you know 3x 4X Maybe maybe you know maybe the the earli people who went into the seed round B tokens at 10 cents and it listed at 30 cents or 40 cents or 50 cents it wasn't like people were buying tokens at 0.001 Cent and it lists at like 50 cents right like that's Insanity right

and you you can read Kobe's post if you want you know much more details of why that breaks down okay so icos cool plays out gets to like early 2018 iOS are really starting to fall off for reasons right there was a ton of inefficiency a ton of grift that was you know that it crept in E four billion well four billion raise and then yeah cooked and then you know just a zombie chain for the rest of time right um and yet when you look at that and and I made this point uh in a tweet um a few months ago if icos had kept going right the market would have realized some ways and and this was already happening right there were people that were uh you know

starting to dig into structure of icos and tradeoffs and you know vitalic proposed gu codes right these like staged you know which was very aspirational um you know uh maybe maybe a little bit too aspirational you don't say I know right yeah maybe a little too right right curve for everyone but like you know the rightest edge of the right curve right and so so like there were people that were proposing solutions to this right to to better align the incentives if the market been allowed to to play out I think we would have gotten there right there was irrational exuberance a blowoff top you know the market would have figured it out in the bare Market people would have kept doing icos and they kind of did right U but that's not what happened instead you had

this like chilling effect of you know regulatory scrutiny saying like you can never do this there's you know can't sell tokens you know they're all Securities or they're all this or they're all that and all of this confusion about what you could and couldn't do right um you know the the Dow uh ruling etc etc right the Dow report um and and so through the end of 2018 it basically drops off to almost nothing right and then you have this Resurgence of IOS as iOS initial exchange offerings right the binance Launchpad Finance Launchpad you know everyone was doing this ponia x like you know people the problem there in my mind is not necessarily the structure there was

a a um sort of misalignment of incentives on the exchange side right where the incentive was to just push through as much as possible through these launch pads because they were getting a free carry right 3% 5% 10% of the tokens in these deals right um and so you know there was no alignment of incentives it wasn't like they were investing in the Ico alongside of everyone they were literally saying we have a a a platform that we can launch you through and we get a free car right so you know you get a free option you're just gonna pump out as many of those options as possible right um and and so there was a lot of toxic flow through that and then people

were like okay that's bad right let's try to realign incentives again and so balancer launches lbps and there were a few other onchain mechanism like like this where it was like you know and this started with Unis swap um the the starting point was uh that um uh we had people that were doing these like singles sided pool things or like you know there were a couple of different schemes that people came up with to like inject liquidity like initial liquidity you know launches right and then balancer was like we've got a better solution to that and so there was this iterative process on in onchain launch pads right to to kind of replace the io

um and then I think people got to the point where projects were like we're too scared to even do that right even that's to risky and that probably ended I think like 2020 or whatever like and there's still a few examples but it's basically been since like 20121 I would say um where there was no way for anyone to get early alignment with a project uh at all right like it just it just switched off almost completely right um you know I can't think of an example in the last like you you had coin coin list did a couple actually successful um yeah Co coin list but remember coin list was not open right like there's still this gated kyc true you know it's not it's not like an O like if you have a thousand people

in your Discord the likelihood that those people have coin list accounts is pretty small right so that early stage of line I mean it's not bad don't get me wrong like coin list you know and same thing with Echo right I think Echo is a little bit easier for people to to you know get access to than coin list um so it's definitely more open but the end result is that like we've had a period since you know maybe the the middle of the L will run all the way through the bare Market where basically everyone just stopped doing this right they you know and then also nfts popped up right and so people were going into nments rather than into um you know protocol uh sales or you protocol launches but people are starting to figure out that there is like latent demand for this and

that people are frustrated with the Dynamics that are in place where you know VCS buy tokens at you know uh Pennies on the dollar um and yeah they're locked up for a year or whatever then it gets some liquidity but like the end result is the vast majority of uh token appreciation happens privately Now versus publicly and you it's you know if you think back a couple years ago like re it was retail was making all I mean the the one of the premises was that retail could make the money before the Venture crowd got in and now it's like I mean if you're doing I I think you might have tweeted this or someone else tweeted this like if you do if you get into a seed round especially if it's infrastructure like you're you're printing a 10x uh it's like it it's it's

always positive EV right and it's funny I've had a couple of debates with people about this they they they thought that hot take was a bit off and um you know it's interesting though the people that are trying to claim that it's much harder are all like seed investors so it's a little self-serving to be like oh this is actually much harder another crowd it's people who did a lot of Angel deals but did them into CI compan IES who did like Ci apps or centralized whatevers where no exit uh like there is no there's I think celus tweeted this there's like six companies in crypto that have ever exited and like yeah three were to FTX or something like that like yeah later later stage yeah exactly

like you know uh there's there's the the liquidity tradeoff I think in tokens um changes the dynamic right which is why treating them like Equity is a bad idea they like whatever structure you think needs to be in place to protect investors it's different to equity structures you can't just yeah you know uh try and overlay it um completely right um and so yeah like you know I've I've joked about this right like you know you talk to a seed investor and they're like no no no like you don't understand I've done like you know 10 or 20 Angel checks and only like three or four of them have been 50x and it's like yeah exactly 21 like what like I'm no mathematician but like I think you're

doing okay right like they could all go to zero after that and you're GNA be fine right so um you know it's it's just really positive EV uh to go into seed rounds that said it does change depending on the cycle you know as you get further into the cycle seed rounds go from 20 to you know in the deep in the bare Market there were seed rounds that were going at 15 20 mil PS um now it's popped up to 30 you know whatever um but it'll it'll get I mean element was probably the the most crazy one last cycle 320 mil uh seed round um you know so yeah saw my saw my first 50 million seed of of the cycle I was like oh we're we're back there's a few floating around

there's a few yeah yeah it's a good it's a good early bull market sign when seed rounds are getting inflated up I actually think one thing that could happen especially is you know this is we're recording this on May 20th which is like this e eth ETF day um the Bloomberg guys I don't know if you've CU you're in other time zone I don't know if you've seen this yet but the the Bloomberg ETF guys did you see this I haven't seen it yet no okay so the Bloomberg ETF guys Eric balunis and James uh seir I think is his last name flipped uh their they they're basically their probability see that from 25% to 75 went from 25 to 75 and then you know the SEC seems to be backing down on some stuff I actually think one prediction that will probably come true is uh some

some some Brands some companies or projects whatever you want to call them will get back to an icoo not not an Ico style but like they will do a seed round or series A or a series B and they will launch a token that retail can buy at a similar price I would assume they end up marking it up a smidge so let's say they raise their series a 100 they'll probably sell it at 150 um to retail but even that is a much better model I think and I think that'll come this year I think the the challenge right the trade here is that back in the day you know uh like the Haven Ico right fdv at Ico was 60 mil fdv right now at the bottom of the bare Market it got down to 3 mil so

it was dark times right um but you know it's it's sitting ATV that is nuts yeah it's pretty crazy right yeah yeah uh second of gen 2019 I remember it very very well um and you know after after BTC fell off the cliff in uh in late 2018 um it just didn't recover um but then it started grinding up from there right you know um so I think it's it's just uh just below a mill a billion sorry of D now right so um you know it's it's recovered significantly from from where it was but even the icos that were doing you know 150 mil raises right they were crazy things like Puma I remember in like early 2018 did 150 mil raise that was

for 75% the tokens right so you know the FDB was the float was plus yeah yeah the float was there you know and yeah it got crushed and disappeared and whatever right who knows what happened to that 150 mil of be I mean by the time they Abandoned Ship there that 150 mil of be was probably down to 20 mil so it's probably G right you think about you know you raise 150 mil you start spending 10 mil a month it goes from a th to 80 and then you know you look around at the bottom and you're like how do we have $50 left what happened right and so so you know all all of that is to say that like the even in 2017 2018 as you know excited as everyone was the the

level of awareness the crypto had back then was was Tiny compared to where we are now and so the fbvs of these icos even big I mean EOS is different story but if you look at like most of the normal icos that were a single Ico the FDB was like sub 300 right and most of them were like 30 you know 20 30 40 50 FTV um and so today though if you were to try to do that I don't think there's enough room for all of the Demand right if you try to do a 30 mil FTV Ico I just for a credible project it wouldn't work right so you need to ratchet it up and say okay we're selling half the tokens so you know there's just a different structure unfortunately that's that's

required I don't think you get away with selling half the tokens at 30 mil um obviously you avoid the low float stuff right and the low float stuff is directly the result of only being able to give away tokens if all the tokens you sell are locked and all the tokens you give away are unlocked then if you only give away 10% of the tokens there you go right 10% and like if you even lock up some of the ones you gave away then it's even worse right you got a 3% float or something like that well what's the solution here because um like Founders who don't have you know 25 million to put into their next company like are I think the second time defi Founders or second time infro whatever you want to call it like second and

third time crypto Founders can do it right like they know the game and they can do it right and they probably have enough Capital to do it right but what doing it right looks like as a first-time founder is you're basically saying I'm taking regulatory risk and I'm putting my M middle finger up to all these VCS who on paper are about to make me go from a you know I I was working Facebook as a PM and now I'm about to have 250 million on paper now it's but I'm like you know now I'm worth a hundred million when my friends are worth like I don't know they're still grinding at Goldman or something so yeah the thing is though right like the low float games feel good but it's actually so detrimental to alignment right like

and this is this is the thing where it's like just layers upon layers upon layers of misalignment right so you have this lowf flow thing where it's like oh hey you know how you were early when we were selling tokens to VCS at 30 mil and you were sitting there in the Discord grinding away helping us you know refine the product or whatever well how does 10 Bill FTV sound for you to buy the token and it's just like well that sounds terrible but I guess YOLO whatever like I'm still bullish right and so you end up buying the token because you're like FTV is a meme the market Cap's really 100 Mil it's going to be fine right and then you know unlock unlock unlock three years later uh you're 80% down right and so like you just kill the community you kill the

alignment like the whole point of tokens the entire point of tokens is alignment with the community if you break the alignment and not just break it but break it in multiple compounding ways you it's worse than having no token you might as well just be an equity project right um and never launch a token and and never have that alignment um you know it's it's it's diable so if you a first time founder would you is it let's say let's say I have term sheet for 100 million and a term sheet for a billion what are you doing so here's the thing as a first-time founder you have far less leverage than it even looks like you do on paper right as a first-time founder you have to follow the meta

investors are looking for a reason to disqualify you right they're seeing tons of different seed rounds so if you go out and you say hey everyone's doing a 30 mil seed round right that's the median and you know the the the range is 10 to 50 or something like that right like the 99% you know confidence interval whatever so you go okay um so I'm going to nail it I'm going to hit the median I'm going to do a 30 mil raise right um I'm going to do you know 10% of the supply in the SE brand I'm going to do this I'm going to do a 15% air drop and you literally go and just copy pasta the entire meta right you do the points you do some reaking we're doing we're doing every like we're just we're like literally I've got like one through 10

doing it right and you and you don't deviate at all right what do you get from that what you get is horribly misaligned incentives right at the end of it with your community right but you actually raise the money because at no point in that 10 point list did you get disqualified right whereas if on point three you're like well actually we're not going to do uh points we're going to do an LBP right and like most investors just go move on to the next one right so it's like so unless you have some leverage in the market you're just going to disqualify yourself now how can you get leverage you can have prior credibility from like a prior startup or

something you know as you say second time founder but it doesn't have to be crypto found you could have come from something you could have like a really deep Network you're ex coinbase and you know like people know you and they know you're credible whatever so like you can get more leverage but even the people with the most leverage the only way that you can really Break The Meta is have your own money if you have your own money you can be like well I'm doing my own meta because I've got my own money and I don't really care what what you think right and then the irony of that is then people go wait wait you got your own money like take my money like come on like I want to play too right like and so you can break the meta so someone

has to break the meta right and we've seen this already like you know Robert Lesner right he broke the meta he's like actually I'm not going to do I'm gonna do this other thing I'm doing rwas I'm have this whole structure and like he's like I saw that L meta and it didn't work for what I want to do I'm doing new meta and I'm bringing my own money and I'm doing my own thing and you can come with me if you want but like I don't care right and that's very powerful because you know people are like okay well if you don't care about me then I definitely want to be in right and so so it's like you know once but once the meta is broken once you've actually done it then you got this situation where it's like okay you broken The Meta and

now other people can follow that meta because that's a new playbook right so someone has to break the meta for other people to be able to say well I'm just doing what Robert did with super state right or I'm just doing what racer did with frch I'm gonna air drop everything right like once the meta is out there then you can kind of do it um especially if it's been successful that's why I was happy to see you doing nfts I still love nfts I I love me too me too I think nfts are bullish and so yeah maybe I mean tell us how you're breaking the meta you've got like my understanding is you got you deposit the usdc into the infinix wallet you get you C you you can stake that and you can earn points I think governance points or GPS or

something you GP governance points yeah um and then you're running this 30-day campaign right now what what's the name of it uh so speedrun the weight list so we've got this big weight list right and we were like these people are mainly Bots how do we find the real people if we just start letting random people off the weit list they might not be real right so we need a way to sort of figure out who's real who's actually aligned who's doing the thing and so you are in governance points and now that we've got a list a ranked list of 3,000 people where if we were to enable Athena today for example right then we would say Okay Athena's enabled the top 100 people get access to it and then the next day the next thousand and then the next day the

next thousand and so it's a way for us to do like a a stage roll out of new functionality so we can test it without just throwing it to everyone and you've got a set number of these points right that you're giving it's like 400 million or something or 377 million I think is the number and there set number of points and those points are sh they convert to the deposit exactly okay that's right yeah and so yeah it's not like Hey we're doing points and then like next week we're gonna do more points I'm gonna inflate you into to Infinity right yeah I yeah yeah I mean the everyone strategy right like it's like we've got points people want points what if we just keep giving them more points and they'll keep doing stuff for us right like it's

hard to wean yourself off that right if you're like you see this narrative starting to turn after Igan lir like what what you said like you not it actually works in the inverse too you need to someone to break the mold and do something right but you also need one of the the loved people to do something and piss people off it's like I think people were seeing that on Twitter saying oh like Ian lay can do something wrong uh okay yeah so and and you know on some level right it was like this false promise right of like we're going to do this thing right we're going to we're going to you know have this great scheme to give you alignment right and then it turns out to be [ __ ] and people are like you rugged me right like I thought we were aligned you you know you did the

thing you got everything that you wanted you got the metrics you were able to do the raises you got the high fdv and now I get nothing that is not a good trade right um and this is the the downside to the points meta right back in the today you used to say well we have 100 million tokens and we're going to give you 10 million 10 million of those tokens to do x y z right um and if you do it you get them and that's it right like it's very clear but then you know as soon as points were invented it was like well we could just give you infinite points and the conversion ratio you don't know what it is and then by the time you work out what it is we've already got everything we want and you know we're off into the

sunset so I keep I keep interrupting you tell me about the the points to tokens to nfts tell me about this whole flow we have this governance process right and we've got points and so we've had a proposal of distributing some points there's a fixed number of points and so we're going to distribute some points to different uh people in the ecosystem and then the community was like no don't distribute to them distribute to the and it started this war of like who's where are the points going to go and they were like five or six different counter proposals right so you know this is a well-known governance problem right if you if you open things up to decentralized governance then yeah you have a situation where uh you know there's uh crazy stuff can happen right

so this is still a thing that's being like discovered in real time like what people's sensitivity is to it what people's issue is yeah um I have a question that probably most of the listeners won't find that interesting but I'm just curious as like a Founder like how how are you what are the lessons that you learned from running synthetics and just other companies like the non- crypto companies too like how how do you run this company like do you have like are you meetings guide not a meetings guide you hired a big leadership team right now because you're like [ __ ] this is my fifth company and like I can't be in like how do you how do you run this company what are some of the Lessons Learned I'll give you just one lesson literally the one most important lesson which in spite of 20

years doing startups I didn't learn when I started infinex which is to build something simple and iterate there's a you know there's a 10 tcy I think in everyone right to want to build the perfect thing right I want this thing to solve all of the problems at every Edge case and like it has to do all of the things right now most of the time you have constraints and you can't do that you have trade-offs you're like well we can't solve x and y we have to you know pick one because we've only got $100 right and it's going to cost $100 to do each of them and so we got to choose one right um The Challenge I guess is a a eighth time founder right especially one who's had some success is

I felt like maybe I didn't have to have trade-offs this time and maybe we could try to do everything and so what we ended up doing and this was a problem that icos also fell into back in the day they would raise 30 40 $50 million and they were like we have infinite money we can do infinite things right and so they would lock themselves in a room for like three years um and they would come out and be like look what we built this beautiful palace in the sky and people be like this is absolute nonsense garbage this doesn't this is not what we wanted like you guys have been locked in a room for three years the world's moved on you're building something that's like a for a different era like whatever right and like there's many examples of

this AAR is a great example right like just going off into the Wilderness for like two years and coming back and being like look what we built and everyone's like God it's like and it just never got used right um and it's it's the problem of like not building a thing and testing it like imp iCal evidence is the most valuable thing that you can have in the world right all of the theories all of the models all of you know the the kind of uh um systems you can build to try and understand something nothing is as powerful as empirical evidence and so if you go and build a thing and say do you like this and everyone says no you go H okay interesting if you go and build something and then you keep building and building and building and extending and extending and extending and you come

back and you say do you like this and they say no you've wasted two years of life right it's crazy we started with this idea of like trying to build everything and we actually tied ourselves up into knots where like the thing didn't work the security model was like way too convoluted no one understood it which is super dangerous when it comes to security like you want something that's simple right and so what we've done over time is to pair back a lot of the stuff that we built and actually simplify it and we've now got a security model that is much more simple and so we built something that you know right now the platform is the feature it doesn't do anything it just is an account that you can deposit funds into and that is very simple and yet we've gotten great feedback from this is

an easy thing that I can deposit money into right if we were trying to do 10 different things and 80 different features it would obscure the signal you wouldn't even know like does the core thing work and now we know we're very confident that the core thing works yeah we yeah that's that's really good for yeah I we um so when we we launched block Works research um two years ago and uh the idea was like you have all these tabs open you've got like misari and token terminal and emis and like all these all these platforms like two and coin Gecko and defi llama and all all these platforms too many platforms like bring it all into one place and if you can just bring all that information into one place it makes it

easier for the user and that what you don't realize on that thesis is like you're trying to go build the like an average of all those 10 products essentially and the better product strategy to do that took us that we had to learn the hard way was like you have to do one thing better than all of those people exactly yeah and then get the users spray and prey model of like you know just try and do everything and hopefully that will work and it's like no like you haven't solved a problem for anyone right you're a worst version of everything right um and that's you know again it's it's a it's a very first time founder problem right of like the first time you build something you know your

intuition is wrong right like as a as a person as to like what you know very few people get that intuition right um you know obviously there's places like y culminates simplify simplify until you're finally like okay fine we'll simplify right um but uh but the tendency is no I want to build the perfect thing I'm so excited like don't you know know what's could be right um but building a you don't build a complex system in a vacuum you build a complex system out of small parts yeah and talking to customers as much as humanly possible so what exactly okay now that you've built uh like centralized companies with just equity and then crypto companies with uh with with

tokens would you ever build an company without tokens again thinking about it simply from the perspect not from the community alignment perspective but the liid founder liquidity perspective from uh from a Founder liquidity perspective like still no right like I think that tokens especially in crypto if I was to go and build a tradire business I I don't know why I would want to do that but you know I wouldn't tokenize it it doesn't make sense right um but you know certainly within crypto it you cannot compete in the market without a token it's it's just impossible right so um you know if you're building something that is designed for institutional people fine maybe you can get away with

it um but the alignment that your competitors will have even if it is aimed at institutions is just far larger right so yeah it's interesting kman anything else it's a great chat uh no all good it's always good to chat um hopefully yeah you guys can chop this up into something that's workable I'm sorry about all the interruptions new office I've learned I've learned a good lesson uh about not sitting in a glass box in the middle of 30 people yeah right um You guys uh you guys should go play around I I onboarded onto infinite X so it's infinex i n fi n xxyz um yeah there's a sign up button it's really cool um I would say this and

uh there's Kinto uh are like the two best onboarding experiences that I've experienced and it's like it's not even uh hey I feel like we're moving from like one year to the next it's like a 10x improvement over like any other application so it's it's yeah it's cool congrats man thank you very much yeah it's been it's been a SLO to get here but we're excited now exactly be well thank you sir all right talk soon [Music]