The AWS Of Crypto | Joe Lallouz

Transcript

this episode is brought to you by pariswap the leading aggregator to find best prices across various dexes you'll hear more about them later in the show [Music] [Applause] all right everyone uh we are back with another episode of empire we got myself today nosanti and we got joe la luz who is the head of coinbase cloud uh he was previously the founder of grand street which was a marketplace that was acquired by etsy he ran innovation at etsy and then in 2018 launched bison trails which i remember talking to i think your co-founder back in 2018 right when you guys had just launched i was like i don't understand this business at all but it sounds really really cool and the more that the space has grown the more i realized how uh many years ahead of the trend you guys were and then

recently i think about a year ago february 2021 um joe and the bison trails team got acquired by coinbase uh and joe is now running coinbase cloud so we're going to talk all about that and his thoughts on the industry so joe welcome to empire my friend awesome thanks thanks so much uh thanks so much for the intro and i'm super pumped to be here i uh i appreciate i appreciate the kind the kind words so it's uh it's always weird to like hear your own intro and be like i guess they kind of do some of those things um and yeah yeah i mean the space has changed uh like crazy over the last little while but super excited to talk about kind of what's going on what we're excited about and uh and hopefully put together a good show awesome awesome let's do it all right so i think we need to start just actually

at the top which is when people think of coinbase they think of three things probably they think of the retail wallet which is where most people probably bought their first bitcoin and continue to buy uh their crypto they think of uh maybe the institutional business with like coinbase prime and you guys acquired like zappo and turned that into coinbase custody and acquired to gomi and coinbase prime and have built a really really strong institutional business and then recently obviously you guys launched coinbase uh nft which you guys did an amazing job with that it looks a lot like instagram and i sent this tweet out that it looks like a kind of web3 version of of instagram uh and and i think a lot of folks like that so uh but now you guys have this coinbase cloud business that i really transparently don't know much about and that's what i want to dig in to with you on this

podcast so can you just give us a high level on what is coinbase cloud and almost just like what is the problem that you guys are solving here yeah you bet um so i love i love that framing also um that's you know exactly right coinbase's mission is all about uh you know increasing economic freedom around the world and so we've taken a few different strategic approaches to that so um i love that you know you said people still go to coinbase to buy their first uh their first crypto the first bitcoin it's amazing um it's fantastic and we have our wallet product uh and now we launched this nft marketplace which we're obviously super pumped about and um you know the nft space has been kind of insane in the last year year and a half so it's been really cool to see all the

new folks that are onboarding to crypto that way so coinbase cloud is our developer platform so it's a suite of products infrastructure apis sdks and developer products to help people build in the crypto and web three space um it's awesome i'm really excited to be heading up uh coinbase cloud because this is really a continuation you'd mentioned earlier on in the intro that i had started this company with my co-founder called bison trails and our mission was very similar it was all about enabling participation and helping builders build in the space and so coinbase cloud is really a continuation of that mission and that vision and the idea is uh you know we have

not just the cloud team but at coinbase we have this uh view of crypto uh that it's going to be you know the the modern application platform the modern software platform for builders and um we uh recognized pretty early on um in particular you know before joining coinbase that building in the crypto space is just incredibly difficult um and you know we've we you know you can talk to a lot of different builders in the space and it's difficult for a few different reasons you know one of the biggest reasons is blockchains are you know are at least the ones we mostly work on our public goods um they're sort of maintained by large collectives or large groups of people all over the world they're decentralized which means that it's really hard to control them it's really hard too which is a good thing right we want that they're decentralized it's really hard

to control them but when it's hard to control something it's also really hard to build on top of it so imagine you know you're you're trying to build a building on top of a ground that's like constantly shifting and constantly moving and constantly changing and that's kind of how we view the crypto and blockchain space so you know blockchains are are you know going through upgrades uh and changing and you know that you have these incredible builders that are trying to build products and services on top of them while those things are changing and so our entire vision here is you know how do we make it easier for people to build in the space and participate in chains and so we've launched a few products that enable us to do that but that's that's really the foundation of coinbase cloud so you can think of us as uh maybe the

maybe today the sort of fourth pillar within within coinbase so like you said there's the sort of retail app uh where people buy there's the institutional product where you know large money managers and uh funds use uh use the products and services like prime to not trade or or buy or sell crypto and we have the nft marketplace which we launched and everyone's super excited about that and then we have our developer products so it's all about helping developers new developers existing developers and this kind of includes you know whether you're two folks at like a hackathon trying to get started um or you're you know a you know a pretty large scale maybe a new neobank or a fintech you want to add crypto products or services to your offering

we work with a whole bunch of different companies to be able to to help them do that so when i think about there are a couple of businesses that come to mind here it's like an analogy right so if you hear about the collison brothers talking about stripe it's like the reason they succeeded is you could add seven lines of code to a site to handle payments right and then you think about so stripe comes to mind uh shopify actually comes to mind as well maybe as a business to compare to um yeah someone like snowflake comes to mind something like aws comes to mind so how do you guys think about just almost like what this business is analogous to in the web 2 world yeah totally it's a great question so um i uh i'll you know maybe i'll come clean on on something here we while i i don't love using the this for

that sort of analogies they do help people kind of frame frame the thinking around it and even early on in like the early uh bison trails days and still with coinbase cloud we do talk about building aws for crypto and uh you know when you use these examples like stripe or shopify they're also really great examples right it's taking something which was previously quite difficult like adding payments to your product or building a website you know 20 years ago building a website was really really hard i know like today it sounds like it's probably the easiest thing on the planet you click a couple buttons boom you have a website but it was really really difficult and similarly we're trying to take participating and building on top of blockchains and in crypto much much easier so we talk about it you know internally mostly about you know how how would we build aws for crypto

and the thing that's that's really important to remember here is uh aws you know is now don't quote me on the time here but like about 20 years old ballpark you know maybe a little bit less than 20 years old and so these these types of uh products that are you know the sort of underlying infrastructure for making it easier for people to build in web 2 or build products and web 2 take take a long time to come to fruition even something like stripe or something like shopify we kind of forget that you know before being able to build striper before being able to build shopify there's this entire series of you know infrastructure lower level infrastructure companies that existed that helped power those so you know i don't know what shopify is

built on top of but a lot of cloud-based infrastructure supports modern applications so yeah one of the common analogies is like you know netflix runs on aws right like we have netflix everybody a lot of people use netflix we know what that is and not a lot of people think that there was a whole bunch of enablers behind the ability to launch and build you know streaming uh web web video and so we kind of think our think of ourselves in those early still those early phases of aws so when aws launched it was really you know there was kind of two products when they first launched pretty early on there was one was ec2 which was this ability to basically launch a server on the internet so we kind of think about our node product in that way so how can you launch a you know a blockchain server

there's a few different applications for that so one is staking and we can talk a little bit more about staking if you want afterwards and the other is really like connecting uh and uh receiving and transmitting data on blockchain so you know submitting transactions reading transactions reading contract contract data and it's like the connective tissue of the crypto space um this you know the second product at aws was s3 and it's like a storage product and so you know very similar like these underlying pieces of technology now if you look at a product like aws they have you know 50 100 i actually don't know but you know 100 or plus products and services that builders can go and use and they're all sort of um abstractions and and you know we use the word composable in crypto a lot so you

know they're all sort of abstractions and composable on top of each other but they're these centralized entities and so that's that's how we think about uh our positioning right now it's still very early in crypto i know um even uh bison trails is now something like four years old um and cloud the work we've been doing with cloud is you know dates dates around then but it's still still very very early so we're in those early phases and um you know we're building alongside other developers and we're learning from them we're understanding their problems um and what difficulties they have building in the space and uh and then building products to help serve that so more pointedly you'd ask like what problem are we solving um you know one of the problems that we found and uh and i actually kind of like this bit of the story

um you know we started trying to solve our own problems which is you know in my opinion some of the best ways to build a product or build a company and uh one of the problems we found was in particular in ethereum you know it was really difficult to uh you know launch a node make sure that that node was synced we make sure that it was at the tip of the the chain make sure that you could process information and connect to other nodes that actually took like a tremendous amount of time and now there's you know a few products and services that allow you to do that a little bit better which is great and that's kind of how we started thinking about our business and our platform it's an interesting strategy right because when i think about some of the other folks that you guys compete with you

know some of them have actually launched their own chains right uh some of them have instead of launching their own chains they've gotten very uh close with or you know very kind of synced up with some of the other l1s as well and kind of put their foot in the ground and said this is the l1 that we're partnering with so some have launched their own l1 some have kind of partnered with l1s and you guys took a different strategy and said we're not going to build our own blockchain instead we're just going to build on top of some of this infrastructure and make it easier for folks to build this on top of the infrastructure is that am i getting that right is that the strategy and if so why like why is that the strategy why not go launch coinbase chain or why not go buddy up with with like avalanche or something like that

yeah i think um there's probably sort of so yeah that has been our strategy and um we've been pretty successful at deploying infrastructure and helping folks build and stake and run uh run nodes on a whole variety of chains and so i think we support like they're a little over 35 right now um which is pretty significant right it's you know it's not one we're not supporting ethereum uh we're not just supporting avalanche or solana or something like that we're supporting all of them and i'd say there's there's you know kind of two main reasons um why why we decided to do that the first is um we wanted to we believed that the best way to engage the entire developer community was to stay pretty neutral from a l1 perspective so

to look at each of these blockchains and say any one of these has an opportunity to be you know major chain um any one of these uh each of these chains i should say have their sort of costs and their benefits so you can look at you know just even like you know it's kind of a bit in the in the the conversation these days in in crypto like you know the speed and transaction processing speed of like something like a solana versus the um you know developer community that's on ethereum and we wanted to make sure that we stayed relatively neutral so we were thinking about how can we help any of these chains um continue to grow and how can we help builders that want to build on ethereum or

solana or avalanche or you know whatever it is help them help them uh grow which was important to us so this is about you know the ethos of the space making sure that we actually support decentralization instead of like forcing being a forcing function for people to just build on ethereum or you know just build on you know l2 as well the second was really about a thesis of the the future and i'd say this is more of an opinion as opposed to an ethos driven approach when we started building uh the company in the platform um we had this belief and this is a give like a little kind of i don't know if i've actually ever talked about this publicly before so this is cool using some of our experience in web 2 we

had this belief that all software will be crypto software in the future and that all modern software will use a whole variety of different crypto protocols and crypto chains to help achieve their goals so this could be something that's you know one chain could be specifically focused on payments one could be focused on transactions one could be focused on data you know and we're actually seeing that come to fruition so there's a whole bunch of l ones that are being are being built that are you know i won't call them application specific but maybe more modular than some of the sort of generalized chains that we've seen and so we had this thesis that modern software over the next 10 to 15 years will start to move in that direction where a piece of software an application let's just say like a user app let's say

the future of web3 social is actually going to incorporate like 15 20 different protocols as part of its underlying software stack and so by going and supporting all of these different chains we sort of put a stake in the ground behind no pun intended put a stake in the ground behind our thesis that we're going to exist in a multi-chain world that there isn't just going to be one chain where people develop there isn't just going to be a bitcoin as a store of value there isn't just going to be an ethereum as a uh you know a smart contract platform we're going to see a lot of them they're going to have different benefits and developers have the opportunity to to pick and choose which ones they want to use in their applications and so that was you know a lot of our strategy was like let's go wide let's make sure we support them so that as

this comes to fruition we're there and we can help people build and i'll say you know four years later we're looking at you know some of the hottest topics right now are kind of like cross chain cross chain interoperability you know even things like staking across chains and how do we move assets between them and if you you distill crypto down to the ability for computers to kind of permissionlessly and trustlessly communicate with each other and transfer value that's a really really important concept and so this was kind of like taking a step back and saying like all right where do we see the world of crypto in 10 years and it was pretty obvious to us that if you looked at any old web 2 software it was always you know they were built using like you know 15 different protocols or different sort of pieces of technology and we imagine the same thing

for crypto and so that's why we kind of went in that direction yeah in media um there's a long history of like basically bundling and unbundling and you see it with you know these big companies get built and then creators break off and things like substance get built and now people are bundling the substance in uh in in kind of technology you actually see the same thing bundling and unbundling and so in like web 2 you see the protocols come you've got this like open free internet in the 1990s and you've got http and you know smtp and then basically uh someone like google comes along and takes smtp and puts gmail on top of it and microsoft puts out look on top of it and now you've got only two email providers in crypto you're kind of seeing the same thing you've got these like open free protocols but then um if

you if you read the moxie piece back uh the uh what moxie do founded signal you know he's very uh kind of i don't know if he's against this but i think he calls it out as a flag right he says that web3 infrastructure is starting to centralize you've got things like i think he was trying to call um an nft image but really he realized it was just like open seas api i'm pretty sure so what are your thoughts on on moxie someone like moxie and just like this overall thought of great for the last decade we have this like very decentralized nature and it's really the ethos of crypto but now what's happening is we're going back to just centralizing everything under these centralized infrastructure providers yeah so uh that's exactly right i think uh so i did i did read i did read the piece uh and um i think it was something along the lines

of he was trying to get an nft and realize it was just like hosted on an s3 bucket which is like even worse than just which is essentially like i look at an nft and it's like actually just on amazon uh and yeah so uh i i would say that when i read that piece i was like this is really helpful so you gotta kind of ask my thoughts on like someone like moxie i actually think it's very very important for people in the space in crypto outside of crypto as they come in as they explore to call these things out because i think the best way that we can build uh better protocols better decentralized technology is that we're honest with ourselves about where we're making these trade-offs so there's always going to be this trade-off of you know i kind of mentioned before building on building crypto is kind of like building on

moving ground and so um and and you know the more centralized it is the more stable the ground is and the more decentralized it is the less stable the ground is and we're going to constantly make trade-offs on time to market uh you know the the type of product what the product is trying to achieve and we're going to make trade-offs on decentralization we're going to make trade-offs on availability on speed and so it's really important as people come into the space to acknowledge that and say like hey i tried to use you know this nft i looked it up and it was like just being hosted on s3 i will say that um i think that that is important to call out but i also think it's a it's you know a bit of hyperbole there's lots of nft projects that are actually using

decentralized storage as a means for um supporting their assets so you can look at like protocols like are weave or ipfs that are being used on the back end instead of centralized services um so you know to the extent that like you know that specific example was like a call out of like hey some projects are doing this i think it's unfair to say all of them there's also a trend in the nft space right now to do uh what's called um i'm actually maybe gonna butcher what it's called but you know it's like the uh on chain basically like on chain images and so they'll render svgs on chain or they'll store even the pixels or the the the data for the pixels on chain so those are um not uh they're not ephemeral they're they're they exist forever

so i'd say like it's really important to call it call it out and call a space spade and figure out where we can do better and where where what we're doing is good enough um you know the the the other thing i'd say is that like uh we um you know and this kind of aligns with our vision it's like how do we make sure that we help nft builders for instance use things like ipfs or use things like are weave and how do we make sure it's we're making it easy for them to either use apis to do this or to run infrastructure on these protocols to be able to do this and the more we can support that you see something like are weave and ipfs as not as a competitor not as a kind of decentralized competitor to this more like centralized cloud uh provider but uh more more as someone

who's a partner right who you're plugging into absolutely and so from even the earliest stages of so there's one other thing that's really important about this which is switching costs so from the earliest stages of our product and our platform we've always worked with protocol teams in fact you know we're actually quite close with a lot of different protocol teams um including you know the r weave team ipfs and a lot of the other smart contracting platforms other l1s and our goal was always to help them it was you know let's take a partnership approach let's make it easier for people to to build in the space so they're definitely not competitors we view them as partners you know and we can make it easy for somebody to maybe use both ipfs and rweave without having to spend a ton of time focusing

on any one of them right like there's a world where we build a storage api and it actually decentralizes across both those protocols without a developer having to think about that so you know you get back to this bundling and unbundling like there's a world where we make it easy to interact with different protocols and there's that's you know would be considered a form of bundling um but the alternative is you spend weeks and weeks dealing with one protocol that's you know moving around and and that's that's quite difficult the the thing that i will say that i actually think is very different from web 2 that is in web 3 is that the better these protocols are built the easier it is to switch between them and and that's where you have to build the actual absolute best product and platform so

um i'll i'll kind of maybe just like poke in on that a little bit uh in web 2 if you're building your entire application on a closed stack it can be quite difficult to switch you know if you build everything you've ever done that's on you know one company stack like aws for instance it can be actually pretty hard to decide you're going to pick up and move your company to gcp and we actually saw this in the i'm going to say like early 2000s a lot of companies that had built their own data centers where all of a sudden switching to cloud because they realized it was more cost effective and more scalable it took them a long time some some have still haven't even done it you know i'd say the majority of growth in cloud computing was from upstarts right like capturing like new players and um you

know there's always people that are that are switching in web 3 that switching cost in theory should be much lower so for me to be able to move my storage from ipfs to rwev should be pretty easy which means that if ipfs goes down or all of a sudden governance around ipfs or you know filecoin or something isn't working the way that it should be working i should be able to move to rweav pretty easily and or you know and i hate singling out two protocols there's actually quite a few uh storage protocols but you know move to our weave or one of the other ones as well and i actually think this is a really key component of uh web3 that maybe isn't as obvious today because we're still in the earliest building phases people aren't like oh my god i need to switch to a different protocol i need to switch

um to a different backend and so um you know from for us it's like how do we make that as easy as possible how do we make it so the developer can see like hey here's an ipfs node here's an r-weave node here's an api that actually can automatically distribute your storage between r-weave ipfs whatever storage any of the other storage protocols and and that uh that to me is sort of where the magic lies right where we actually add value by making it more decentralized in that way yeah are these um it's interesting like switching costs i i think about switching costs a lot in defy because um basically what's uh what d5 has enabled is like it's such an interesting user experience because you uh can just like moving from like aveda compound is seamless right moving from

like unit swap to sushi swap is seamless but that actually is like not amazing for the business model so then you have to start doing things like um maybe playing with tokenomics and introducing things like ve for tokenomics to try to lock people up for longer i've never thought about that with b2b businesses though right and i've never thought about how you know if we wanted to move from hubspot to salesforce or if we wanted to move from aws to azure right now these switching costs are incredibly high right it's like moving from for retail it's like my bank of my bank of america account to my wells fargo account or something like that the switching costs are really high in b2b crypto uh products i've never actually thought about those switching costs also being really low so if you're someone like actually an r weave or an ipfs or storage or file coin how do you

increase the moat of your business and and just improve it yeah i think and so the like product person in me actually loves this because it starts to it starts to make the question like there's this old ad agents in you know software development that the best product doesn't always win uh and you know a lot of times like the marketing around it the you know go to market who you can lock in is often a predictor of who wins in a market and i actually think web 3 breaks that down in an interesting way so it really depends on like how you think about these protocols if they are businesses uh and if uh what it actually does is pushes the community the protocol foundations the teams that are building them to continue to

innovate right so my view on this is it puts all these protocols and all these builders in a position where they actually have to do focus on the product and the experience because if not and continue to innovate because if not people will switch because it's relatively inexpensive to switch so i view this as like over the next 10 years we're going to see people continuing to build and continuing to innovate and so it kind of breaks away from this you know innovators dilemma where you know you kind of get locked in and you can sit back on your you know rest on your laurels and and sort of be like well these people can't move it's too expensive for them to move so we don't have to do anything instead protocol teams i'll actually expand that not just protocol teams everyone at crypto needs

to sort of continuously be innovating to make sure that they're driving value and i'm not talking about you know driving synthetic value to people that are holding your token i'm not token i'm talking about like driving value to the ecosystem around the you know the the protocol that you've built um and i think that's super super powerful as far as the business models are concerned i think like you know the jury is a lot on what exactly the business model is for protocol you know like if we look at something like ethereum and we see transaction fees as like a corollary for a business model it looks like an amazing business right transaction fees are pretty high people aren't super excited about it but clearly ethereum's driving value to some folks and so if we can kind of find that balance where protocols are using

uh the the i'll just call it revenue even though we're not calling revenue protocols are using the revenue that they're generating by providing value to the people building on top of them and use that to continue to innovate on their protocols make sure that they're better make sure that they're faster make sure that they you know provide more features i think we're going to see a really really explosive an even more explosive pace of innovation in crypto over the next 10 years which again is like mind-blowing because the one thing i have said is like crypto innovates so much faster than any other industry i've ever worked in and so it's exciting for me you know like i look back look at that i'm like what a place to be like what a place what a time to be alive you know yeah yeah definitely so one thing about just really fast

innovation though um is that things start to break and that's what we've started to see over the last like 24 months it feels like maybe ending in november uh the last six months people feel a little worn out and like we talk about this on the podcast all the time like narrative exhaustion but start going back to november maybe looking 18 months in history you know maybe starting with like defy summer let's call it through the end of last year just innovation was insane right these like the d5 protocols really took off the amount of capital that flowed into them was insane nft markets obviously went crazy um the facebook changed their name to meta right like things just went completely bonkers and what happened is like probably the industry got a little out ahead of its skis and so now we're feeling the repercussions of that so you

have i think it was this past maybe a couple days ago like the near ethereum bridge right the rainbow bridge uh something happened i don't think any funds were lost but then you had like obviously the ronin bridge it's like 600 650 million wormhole bridge rises like 300 320 million like these things start to kind of break down so how do you guys see yourselves uh oh actually i'd rephrase that like what is the issue like what's happening here and then and then how do you guys solve that if if at all how do you guys play a role in that yeah um so incredible incredible observation and in fact like there is this narrative around like the less crypto changes the less likely it is to break the more stable it is so you know a lot of uh bitcoin maximalists say the best part about bitcoin is that it

really never changes um and there's probably some truth to that right and and you know i i should say like i am not a maxi on like any crypto asset um i actually am a pretty firm believer in like the role that different protocols need to play in the future of crypto so my opinion is kind of informed by that um but the reality is and you point this out like the more we innovate the more we change uh the more likely we are for mistakes to happen for um you know errors to happen for bad code to go out uh and so i think that's that's very right i think your description that like you know the space got ahead of its skis uh is probably and for folks that don't know that that reference like if you're skiing if you like lean over your ski so much you fall

so the idea is like you know you get you get uh you get sort of ahead of yourself and i think that's that's right i think we've you know anyone who's been through a few different cycles in crypto has seen that before in different forms so not to be flippant about it but i just don't think it's that new i think we're seeing it happen at slightly different scales these you know i love that you brought up the the bridges and the bridge hacks because um they kind of they showed me they've showed a an interesting trend that i've been seeing in crypto which is this shift from uh you know the the sort of risks associated with being in crypto from the infrastructure to almost the smart contract layer or the the software layer um so for folks that are you know kind of

maybe a little bit newer to the sort of bridge world the the hacks or the errors you're talking about where are these like interoperable bridges and someone can take an asset move it from let's just say ethereum uh to solana seamlessly so i can move my ethereum from eth to solana and the core principle is you have you know a protocol that it has a contract that locks up your eath on ethereum and then uh you know again i'm overly simplifying this and then simultaneously mince new eth on the chain that you're looking to move it to so i'd lock my eath on ethereum and then the protocol then mince new eath a wrap normally a wrapped eath on that new chain um and uh and so i think you're you're exactly right we got ahead of our skis and so we're sort of saying like oh we're building these

things really really quickly um we probably are i don't say skipping but rushing through some of the earlier like testing phases uh of like you know how does it scale will it will it break you know in in the like old software days you would say like great i launched a product but like five people can come to my website or my app but like what if a million people show up tomorrow like will that will it still work and these products failed all the time i mean like if you think of even like twitter you know 10 years ago twitter used to go down like weekly it was like pretty it was pretty regular because it took uh these companies a while to solve some of the scaling problems and i think that these are just um scaling issues within crypto the thing that's a little bit scarier within crypto is that there's a lot of real

funds associated with it and so the stakes are pretty high and uh and um but but i don't believe that the um the uh costs so like the the you know the risks uh is is a should be a deterrent from innovating and innovating quickly like the this the crypto space uh is just magical because of how fast it innovates um and one of the things that's been that's been cool with these these bridge attacks is we've actually seen the space pretty much uh bounce back um you know in the case of the most recent wormhole attack that you're kind of mentioning no funds were lost which means that like the code was actually written really well we got to see like what happens when an

attacker tries to attack operation like is unsuccessful which i thought is awesome and the reality is is like the every time we iterate on these bridges we're going to see them get better and better and better so you know an attack from a year ago is a way to view a lens into the future of an attack that could happen in the future and so um i'm incredibly optimistic on like the outcomes of these um kind of just getting back to what you were saying like how do we what you know what's the role that we play here and i'm saying there's this trend that's like moving away from infrastructure to the sort of software layer um if i take like staking for an example as an example today there's a few different ways people can stake um so like you can stake like on a centralized exchange you can stake using a decentralized

protocol like for instance lido or you can stake directly by running staking nodes on a specific network what people kind of forget and i think that this is okay is that the underlying infrastructure behind the you know centralized exchange that's allowing you to stake or the underlying infrastructure behind the decentralized protocol that's allowing you to synthetically stake are all the same as the nodes that are running that allows you to directly stake and so what we've kind of shown and the role that we play is how do we make sure that like like i mentioned before that the ground that people are building on top of isn't moving from under them so i view that i view the fact that we're seeing these these innovative products come out to enable better ux's for different use

cases as a really big win for folks that are building in the sort of underlying infrastructure space like the fact that nobody uses lido and says like what nodes are powering this is a really good thing because it means like the nodes that are powering it are actually doing a really good job of you know producing verifying validating blocks which is the sort of core the crux of you know having a blockchain that works well so that's that's really the role we play yeah will you eventually be able to bridge like even with this topic of bridges will you eventually just be able to do all your bridging on coinbase is that something that you guys are thinking about so i i don't want to um i don't want to get too far ahead on like the product solutions that we haven't launched yet no your product team is like damn it joe what did you

think of something yeah they're like don't go on a podcast and promise what we're going to launch so so i don't want to you know that's like the like a big no-no but that's the difference between uh being a founder and uh being working at a big company yeah yeah i feel like even as like a founder i still try to not every once in a while it happens um no but i think uh so look to to be like entirely candid like we wouldn't be think if we weren't thinking about the interoperabil interoperability and bridge space across chains we probably wouldn't be doing a very good job and so um will you be able to bridge directly on coinbase i'm not sure i'm not sure

there's you know there may be a product team that's working on that there may not be but what i do know is that cloud in particular is building products infrastructure and api and sdk products to make it easier for devs to build interoperable protocols and to build applications on top of them and that includes being able to you know move assets transfer assets um submit transactions verify those transactions stake for instance so you know there's there's a sort of like composable element to it like you bridge assets then what happens are you staking them are you moving them are you trading them there's a whole bunch of uh different use cases or jobs to be done that are happening and we currently have you know our node product that enables people to

do that and our staking products as well enable people to delegate or to participate and run their own nodes on these protocols so we're definitely thinking a lot about the interoperable space and you know i said it before like our strategy was all about creating this world where there's lots of different blockchains that interact pretty seamlessly and part of that is you know bridging interoperability all right everyone quick break from the show to share a big update from our friends at paris swap the best platform to stake swap trade farm and more periswap just launched gas refunds based on how much you stake you can now get up to 100 of your gas refunded on all of your swaps on pair swap this is huge for anyone who has spent a lot of time in d fire maybe it's just starting out you

know how egregiously expensive the gas transactions can get the gas fees are ridiculous at some points in time and now you can get those entirely refunded on pair swap to participate all you need to do is stake a minimum of 500 psp big shout out to the pair swap dow for making these refunds possible really it's just it's tough to be pair swap right now they give you the best prices they save you money you've got this gas refund if you stake psp they've got a smooth and really user friendly interface fast swapping it's really everything that you'd want from a d5 platform if you don't use them already check out paraswap today at paraswap.io now let's get back to the show let's talk about sticking let's go there so right now 30 of each is staked via

lido um and lido has about maybe 85 to 90 of the liquid staking market so not even talking about coinbase and coinbase cloud does that does like lido's dominance in the staking kind of wars or battle or whatever or just market share does that does that concern you at all um i'm going to say no but i'm going to say no with like an asterisk and caveat it i think uh and this is amazing and that would you know tons of respect to the lido team they have showed the crypto world that the product that they've built is something that people want and that is incredibly valuable we kind of talked a little bit about switching costs before

so getting back to uh this idea of switching costs i actually think it's incredibly valuable that they have shown folks that liquid staking is possible and done at scale i think that we need more competition in that space in particular and we're starting to see it pop up in different ways there's a few teams that have built you know similar liquid staking protocols on alternative l ones or different l1's other than ethereum that are starting to think about how they can position themselves on ethereum or are already positioning themselves on ethereum and uh i wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lot of competition in the next like if lido started to see a lot of competition in the next like six to twelve months

and it's gonna be cool it's gonna force light out to continue to innovate it's gonna force other folks to continue to innovate as well so maybe i should say like yes it concerns me if it were to stay like that forever but no it doesn't concern me because i believe this is still really early and we're in like the early phases we're going to see a lot of competing protocols building in that space what what i do see is uh again this shift this like sort of underlying shift to people being okay with the risk from the smart contract perspective um and maybe they're just not thinking about it that much so you know personally i look at lido and i say like you know great team great product really cool idea um sort of they've decentralized the risk of the the node operators themselves and like

sticking to specific nodes and also made it a lot simpler so people don't have to think about it all that much which is great um but they've also then concentrated the risk around this contract or this you know this set of contracts and i think that that's that's okay we just have to you know recognize it and make sure that uh you know there's more eyes on it people are looking at it and um and then you know continue to offer competing products if we were to stay forever in a world where lido had 30 of ethereum stakes i think we'd be in a lot of trouble you know this you know as someone who's been in proof of stake very early and was like a proponent for the space um i'm pretty well aware and for folks that aren't that like you know if you control more than

33 of a network or votes on the network you can basically stall the network um you know whether it's maliciously or deliberately and so that's that's something we've always shied away from and making sure that we were not you know running that risk um the tricky thing about a decentralized protocol is i don't think they can actually make that actively make that decision you know the the the the folks that hold the governance token would have to vote to stop minting new um i forget the the wrapped st there's an st that they have steve yeah yeah they would have to vote to stop minting new sd then like close the contract or something like that and i'm just not convinced to see a world where that happens so

yeah yeah i mean it's uh and it if you look at a chart of it there's this um you know back in i mean it's basically just going up every single month they're the percentage of eath staked in lido so today as of today it's 31.6 so if they hit that 33 that means what what does that actually mean what what can they do to the network so um it's a little bit more nuanced than if they hit 33 that they could stall it because they as far as i know again i'm not like i don't work on lido but as far as i know they take that ethereum and they distribute it across a bunch of different block producers on ethereum and so in theory they could

uh you know in theory they would be the lido protocol would be proposing validating more than a third of blocks and if you are the one that's proposing and validating more than a third of blocks if you're for some reason incapable of validating those blocks like again i'm gonna throw up like i arbitrarily say incapable whether the protocol goes down it gets hacked like there's lots of reasons why they could be incapable um the ethereum again we're talking about eth2 would stall it would not be able to reach consensus and wouldn't be able to produce new blocks and so and this is like a risk by the way this is not just a lido thing it's not just

an ethereum thing this is a risk in most implementations for proof-of-stake networks um having a chain stall is pretty terrible you know you can't produce more blocks which means nothing happens and so we definitely don't want that to happen um and so it's it's a risk right there's there's uh it's hard to perfectly quantify how likely that risk is that's that's the issue you know it's for centralized entity it's it's a little bit easier for a very distributed entity it's a little bit more difficult and in particular like a decentralized protocol it's actually quite difficult so um yeah i mean 32 would you say 31.6 percent that's that's a big chunk um the one thing i will say also is that we

actually haven't seen too many uh large i'll just say like large aggregators of eth come to market to uh with competing products you know i think like um you know ethereum being in this sort of like two eth world right now where there's you know eth1 the existing chain and like we're you're going through them i know the foundation doesn't want us to talk about as eth2 anymore but whatever the pre-merge and post-merge ethereum um i think that's also like kind of put people in like a bit of a holding pattern i know plenty of builders that are like whoa let's just wait till the merge happens and then start to build and implement uh products and so um i do think like the optimist in me is always looking at this is like this feels like a temporary

problem and that post merge will probably see the you know the krakens and the coin bases and the finances of the world you know which i'm sure have lots of these i don't actually know for a fact but i'm sure have plenty of youth on them start to come to market with like uh products that can compete with uh lido and that'll probably you'll probably see a lot of the um the concentration around lido go down the reality is like lido is the best product today yeah if you are coinbase's head of product um i know this might be a better question for for the product team but i'm gonna ask you it anyways would you guys would you recommend that coinbase to compete would they should you guys launch a liquid staking derivative for steak dieth or uh instead should you maybe just like plug in and feed assets into lido and give users an ability the

ability to get steath in their wallet so i won't speak to anything we are or aren't doing so like this is a hypothetical question exactly hypothetically this is a hypothetical question there's nothing to do about what we are aren't doing but i will say to stay in line with uh our mission about you know increasing economic freedom the idea would be to enable people to participate where they want to participate if they want to own steath they can own steve if they want to not owns teeth because they you know from an ethos perspective believe that lido has too much control they should have an alternative if they would like to opt for simplicity and custody there's probably a solution that exists within the exchange world or within the you know sort of centralized uh exchange or centralized retail app world

and so um you know i know that we are incredibly mission focused organization and that's how we think about building new products it's less about you know should we build a derivative should we not build a derivative should we you know launch a competitor i think it's really about increasing freedom and access and that includes supporting a whole bunch of different solutions right and and uh and we've you know particularly on the cloud side we've definitely lived that right we're not like you know focused only on any chain we're not focused on only any solution we're not focused on um we participate in staking in all the three different forms that i described earlier right so like centralized staking we work with a lot of exchanges and custodians to help them stake today right so yeah behind the scenes we do that uh

decentralized staking we participate decentralized protocols and we run stakeholders to be able to do that and same thing um with uh direct obviously direct staking which has been our you know bread and butter because none of these things existed in 2019 2018 2019 2020 so we enable individuals to run nodes and stake and yeah if you have 32 ethan you want to run your own ethereum node you can do that on on cloud today yourself so i think you know sticking to our mission and our our values it's really about enabling people to do uh what they want to do where they want to do it um so you know i would guess that that's the direction that we go yeah what about mev right as an infrastructure provider in a lot of these pos

chains i'm i'm assuming mev is a recurring theme um i'm curious if you guys like if coinbase cloud is working on any mev products and also just like um yeah i don't know it feels like whoever can kind of capture and distribute mev the best will end up attracting the most alligators via higher yield so i'm just curious how you guys were thinking about this yeah um i was hoping i was wondering if we'd make it through this conversation without talking about mev so um i was gonna say hoping that we were but actually actually that's not true i think it's an incredible topic um it's a double-edged sword is what i would say uh so um on one hand you know what you're describing is like people will use validators they can extract mbv because they'll be able to

drive more value to um you know for producing blocks or validating blocks to their delegates or their stakers which is totally true but then there's the other side which uh you know there's a bit of an uh ethos pushback in the space against mev that it's extractive that it's uh you know a little bit uh too focused on extracting value i mean it's in the name but whatever uh extracting value from the ecosystem versus giving it back um so we have thought about it a lot actually um we thought about how it affects our product offering we thought about how it affects our you know rewards rate on like the nodes that we run um and what we're trying to do is be really thoughtful so what we haven't

done is rush to market with like a hey here's like a me the optimized node um we've been deliberate about that because we actually are trying to be thoughtful about how we would want uh to have this uh exist in the world and i think that this that kind of falls on like you know people that have been in crypto for a little while i think it's like on us to help you know shape the world of crypto that we that we want to see and you know try not to be too opinionated but like make sure that we're striking a good balance um so you know the the biggest thing for me and and for us is like how can we be really transparent about mev uh more than anything so it's not about can we offer the product or not it's like how do we operate in a way

that's super transparent to everyone not just the people using it but the market and until we're comfortable being able to do that we haven't been wanting to launch something the second piece uh is you know mostly around like how can we give back so uh you know if you think about mev as a means to extract value but as you're extracting value how can you give back to the ecosystem in the space and so a lot of conversations that we've had internally on the product side at cloud is like can we can we capture mev but should we carve off a portion of it and give it back to the foundation to support future innovation and development you know like i'm not saying we're doing that but these are examples of ways should we use it to sponsor bitcoin grants or

hackathons um you know it's it's really like we want to make sure that we're creating a balance and creating a sustainable business but at the same time making sure we're not just taking taking taking from the ecosystem and um and so to be able to do that well i think you need to be a little bit patient and a little bit thoughtful about the products that you build and the ones you go to market with because it's really hard to kind of backtrack once you go to market with something what is the i mean i hear a lot of folks talk about like there's this moral hazard right for large these like large market makers and prop traders who make millions on mev and they're also and and when they're also the top validators in the network right and i think that there's this uh concern that maximizing

mev may be best for prop trading but maybe not best for the network what what is that can you just explain for folks who maybe don't know mev as well like what is that concern why do folks say it's a moral hazard and why wouldn't if you're maybe i mean there's this word extracting value which sounds bad but if you just change it to say generating value like why why why why is this a bad thing basically so it's it's a bit okay uh well there's two pieces one i'll say that um i am not like in the pinnacle of experts on mev there's a there's folks in the space that are much more uh well versed in it than i am i don't i don't you know do any prop trading i don't i don't i don't you know i don't do i don't participate personally in the activities that extract mev um so my my

understanding of mev is you know it's good but it's like you know relatively high level so the the moral hazard is uh mostly around um how transactions are built uh in the ecosystem and so um essentially you can change the transaction ordering uh on a on a block and if you are the person who the i'm gonna say person but the entity or the organization that is responsible for setting the transaction order but also uh deciding transaction order that benefits you more so than other folks in the ecosystem you create this incentive this perverse incentive structure where you're only acting uh in

on your own behalf and the bigger you are the more you can do that so if you are 30 of ethereum for instance um and uh you are you know statistically going to validate and produce one-third of all blocks one third of transactions you can organize in a way where you get the maximum amount of extraction from the transaction ordering um so when you have players that kind of cross both playing fields one i'm trying to you know extract as much value from this transaction order as possible and two i'm trying to i'm the one that's responsible for has this like responsibility for proposing validating and signing blocks um you you basically like put the the

two decisions that can be pretty detrimental uh in one in one entity's hands um and you know there's there's teams like flashbots which are trying to democratize access to this so um you know if everybody has the entire same tool set to uh to you know engage in mev like flashbots for instance then it kind of reduces the barriers to entry and engaging in mvv and then like anyone can do it and so then you sort of in a weird way it's like a i hate this expression but it's almost like an arms race you know it's like it's like if you have like the the best weapons then like you can be really extracted of but then if like all the weapon if everyone has all the best weapons then it's like no one can really be that extractive so i'm pretty bullish

on on technologies like uh and teams like flashbots that are helping making it easier for folks to engage in it i do think it's still a relatively esoteric space right now i think like you know really limited to like prop prop houses and um pretty advanced traders and but that'll change i think we'll start to see more products and services that kind of bake it into what they've done let's get back into some of the infrastructure stuff one thing that's really popular right now with just like the scaling wars is we've seen a lot of developer sdks from like cosmos come out you've seen subnets from avalanche and i think polygon um spinning up a a new chain or just like a roll-up is an extremely heavy burden for anyone who's actually been in the weeds kind of doing this is this an area that you see coinbase cloud potentially

getting into yeah it's actually an area that we have a ton of experience in too so um you know i mentioned earlier on that we've worked with protocol teams from the earliest phases and and that's that's actually quite literal so there's plenty of protocol teams um including some of the most popular l ones today that we were uh pretty actively involved in like even the earliest test nets so um this is kind of a fun fact one of the first protocols that um you know the the our platform supported was cosmos and cosmos launched in this incentivized test net actually a test net and then an incentivized test net and there was no you know real rewards or no real benefit to being on it other than you know helping the ecosystem um you know cold

start which is a very very difficult problem and so we have a ton of experience working with early protocol teams we've done this like i said with cosmos with with solana we were on the salon uh early early test nets from you know a year or two years before even the beta net went on uh went live um we were one of the earliest uh um validators and block producers on eth2 and um continued to to support um you know the ethereum uh ethereum chain as it could as it moves towards emerge um but to your point like the protocol teams are trying to make it easier uh to spin up these these networks and uh one of the things that you're kind of hitting at which without directly hitting at it is that there's actually this trend in some of these ecosystems to create this shared security model main chain and then you

have these like application specific or modular sub chains so subnets is an example um you know avalanche is focused on like how do we have like a network specifically for you know uh decks or for gaming we see the same thing in cosmos where in the cosmos and tendermint ecosystem where you have the sort of cosmos main chain and you have like the osmo chain for instance specifically um just a chain for uh for for decks the osmo decks and they you know they have the star gaze chain which is specifically their chain for uh nfts um and uh and so the the protocol teams have been making it easier which is cool um you know the sdks and then like you know something like ibc which is the inter blockchain connectivity i believe it stands for um

which the tendermint team has built to make it easier sort of the kind of tooling around making it easier to communicate with like the cosmos chain and then like these sub chains and polka dots doing a similar thing uh where they have the para chains as well that you know have a shared security model with the main polkadot chain um so we've been uh so the ways we've been involved there is one we work with early protocol teams regularly so we you know we launched evmos uh recently um we've worked with like the akala team and the kurora team and like uh in polka dot um and so a lot of times these protocol founders will come to us and say okay like we're looking for help to get this cold start off the ground um and we're experts in getting protocols up and off the ground running and um and we do that uh it's

really valuable for us because we get to be involved very very early and then we also then um build some of our own tooling like read and write nodes on top of those chains as well as staking nodes and you know offer that to the market so that's where it helps you know that transitively helps our business model as well so yeah super early we then uh work with early stakers to help produce blocks and get them up and running you know a day one launches is really important for us uh and uh and then yeah and just making sure that we're making these ecosystem really robust you know and having a ton of expertise in the the you know the i don't know what probably we should probably come up with a name like a unified name for this but basically like the you know the the main chain ecosystems so there's like the l

ones and then the l twos or the sub chains or the side chains around them we call them ecosystems internally but yeah so we were pretty involved and created a lot of expertise around those ecosystems if you were did you follow the google labs like land sale debacle over the weekend um relatively loosely uh so yes but like i didn't try and mint any land so not as close but yeah pretty closely yeah if you if you were you go lab so uglabs comes out so like they you know the gas went to like 3 000 bucks or something like that 4 000 bucks i forget what it actually was and totally clogged up the entire chain was kind of this like reminiscent of 2017 cryptokitties moment right if you so you go labs comes out and they say okay you know we clogged up ethereum we need to move to our own chain

basically if you are hugo labs and so a lot of people have pushed back and say why do they need to create their own chain should they move on to like an l2 should they actually fork an l2 if you're yugolabs what are you doing what is your solution to this and and can coinbase cloud help with it yes coinbase cloud can help with it it's the answer one yes coinbase cloud can help with it but that's obviously dependent on my answer this is an opinionated answer so i don't want to like offend anybody at hugo but um no i don't think that they need to launch their own chain i think that we've actually seen a number of chains that can support the type of scale that they're looking for um even if they decided that they wanted to stay on ethereum and there's a few right like you know flow in particular

you mentioned cryptokitties right like the team from dapper and and that then launched flow was literally the exact same problem that we're seeing that we saw over the weekend which was like crypto kitties broke ethereum and they were like let's build our own chain specifically for mfts so like a world where like every and a successful nft project decides it needs to build its own main chain is fine it just doesn't sound like the it wouldn't be the solution that i would take you know i said like my our thesis is that there's going to be multiple chains many many chains and some of those will be duplicative there'll be many nft chains i think that's totally fine does every successful nft project need to build their own chain probably not right like so i would maybe take a step back and look at what has happened historically

you know i think when dapper decided they were going to do it and they built flow there wasn't really an nft chain and so like maybe that was the right time and the right idea um i think today i would not um i think that as we're seeing ethereum move more modular and breaking up consensus execution and data availability which is what the merge is going to do and like the you know upgrades on ethereum is going to do the problems that you have faced during their like sort of mint and scaling is could be done on an l2 and they could have used you know polygon or arbitrarily or optimism or you know any of the other l2s that could have supported this so if it was me i would have you know i'd come to cloud and i'd say like hey we actually are going to have a really large

presence on you know this l2 or these two l2s for instance because we want to decentralize it a little bit help us run nodes on these different protocols so that we have like really amazing connectivity that we can you know make the ground a little bit less shaky um but then these l2s and rollups will help solve some of the um you know scaling issues and clogging up the main chain issues so that's what i that's what i would do um and maybe i should reach out to them and suggest it give them the patch give them the pen yeah i'll get i'll give them i'll give them the pitch i'll show them my one kennel and my one kennel dog be like look i'm a big i'm a big time yuga supporter um

and uh you know i think y'all should do this and listen to me one thing that i want to get your take on is actually a prediction so vance and michael from framework ventures came on the podcast the other day really really interesting uh episode they have they put out so they just raised their 400 million dollar fund yeah and they put out about i think it was like 20 predictions so for the year by the year 2030 and one of the predictions was that most sas businesses that have their own public-facing api will end up having their own l2 on ethereum so most sas businesses by 2030 will have their own l2 on ethereum which replaces their public-facing api what do you think about that prediction i love it um i think the definition of l2 is maybe a bit loose

so the way we view l2s today or mostly in the form of like yes very specific type rollups i think that the idea of having a open source public api is way more beneficial and powerful to even the sas business as well as the ecosystem more eyes on it more people able to you know compose and abstract it away or build stuff on top of it so this is very valuable for sure i think if you like really blurred or smudge the definition of like what an l2 is i think that makes a ton of sense um i think that we're going to see a ton of major businesses that use um very successful l1 as a you know you know a finality layer for for elements of their business and they

could build scalable uh l2 solutions subnets power chains uh side chains whatever you want to call them depending on the ecosystem you're working on that uh that support their business so yeah yeah i think that i actually think that's a really really cool prediction i think it's also entirely in line with uh this view that we're gonna exist in the multi-chain world and if you looked at like a modern you know a modern shopify business for instance there's a ton of sas that they use in the background that are private apis um a world where those private apis are actually you know public lt chains with public apis uh is you know very much in line with our vision of this like multi-chain world and that all software is going to be crypto software i think yeah you know the thing that i like to tell the team and the thing i like to tell

folks is uh we're gonna get to a point where we stop saying like this is a web 3 company or this is a crypto company the same way as we did like it was a very short period where companies were called mobile companies or web 2 companies right a short period being a couple of years but i think you know we're in that phase right now where it's oh this is a web 3 company oh this is a crypto company in 10 years by that time no one's gonna say this is a crypto company there's gonna be a company and companies are gonna have or you know organizations whether maybe their dows maybe they're not companies anymore are going to have uh you know massive crypto massive crypto software components to their product to their products and their software last question here joe is um you started

bison trails after just building in the space and finding that the underlying there are a lot of underlying problems with the existing infrastructure what are the blaring holes in infrastructure today and maybe targeting the answer it there's a lot of entrepreneurs and and founders and even investors who listen to this and is there any low-hanging fruit outside of maybe coinbase clouds per view that you would encourage other teams to to start working on yeah um i don't wanna i don't wanna get i don't wanna what was i don't wanna get too far over my own skis here um i also uh we have like a a pretty long term roadmap that is like multi-year and so i don't want to give too much away about like the stuff that i'm thinking about in the in the future um i think being a little bit more like focusing on like the development of the

ecosystem and the development of the crypto space um i think that uh there's a tremendous amount of software work and developer tooling work to be done around smart contracts around the auditability the building the composability around it i think there's a tremendous amount of work to be done around cross-chain communication so not just like a protocol that does bridging but data sharing cross-chain execution um i think that uh there's a tremendous amount of work uh to be done uh still on like reliable infrastructure nodes and apis in the various types of protocols that we're seeing so

um you know you see storage protocols you see you know smart contract uh protocols you see uh bridge protocols um we're still kind of in the infancy in a lot of these so smart contract ones are maybe the most mature but still only a few years bridges are barely a year you know like like the oldest live bridge i think is like just over a year or something like that which is insane um and so i think there's still a tremendous amount of work to be done around the the sort of open access apis uh that helps these different protocols communicate i think that's maybe as far as i'll go i have like you know there's a couple ideas that we're working on that are like the secret sauce well it's not even so much secret sauce it's more like um it's it's more like uh you know we're in progress on a

couple of these things and we're really excited about it the um you know the last thing i'll say there is that anyone who's really great in the space specifically focus on developers um you know helping people build you need to be really plugged in and listening to the developers um and that's like the most important thing that that you know any of us are doing and it's something that like my co-founder and i spent a tremendous amount of time doing youth you said you know we built this company and we built this product to help our to serve our needs because we are developers we know the space we are the builders in the space and staying connected with the builders is the most important uh thing that you know any of us or any of these companies need to do because that's how you understand the pain points we're going to end on this which is just i

just love this this is the coinbase seed pitch deck from summer of 2012. and uh the main pain point was just that bitcoin is too difficult to use and it shares this like current tools and it's just a bunch of code and then you've got the screenshot of coinbase which by the way if you can kind of zoom in i don't know if you can see it it's got a balance of 42 bitcoin so what is that that's like a price of like 1.6 million bucks now so i don't think they were expecting for the average user to have 1.6 million in their account so i just love this i just love this screen and it's amazing to see that you know this is from summer of 2012 10 years later uh coinbase is still working on the mission of making all of this stuff easier to use so hats off to you and yeah and the entire coinbase

cloud team i love um i love this this is awesome and thanks for thanks for showing this i wish i you know there's there's a version of this that's the cloud version you know this is the coinbase version right like how do you like buy bitcoin that's too difficult to use and literally there's a version of this seed you know deck slide that's like crypto's too hard to build in and it's like a bunch of developer tools and then there's like you know originally bison trails but now you know coinbase cloud exactly awesome exactly we'll keep up the good work man uh i think we're all rooting for you and um yeah be well we'll see you permissionless sweet thanks for having me on the show and i'm excited to see you [Music] you