Anthropic's Fable Banned, Will Microstrategy Blow Up & Structuring A Portfolio in 2026

Transcript

Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products. This podcast is forformational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of Blockworks. Our hosts, guests, and the Blockworks team may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. All right, everyone. Welcome back to Empire. Very excited about this one. We got Santi. I think Rob's going to join us in a little bit. And we got a friend of the pod, Jordy Alexander from Seleni.

Jordy, what's happening? >> How are you guys doing? What a what an exciting time to be alive. >> What an exciting time. >> Truly is, man. You know, we are recording this on the back of the FOMC meeting yesterday. You're our macro guy. I mean, none of us here are macro guys. So, Jordy, what's going on through your mind? >> Um, right. We're not going to talk about the most exciting thing, which is that the Knicks won the World Cup. New York is electric right now. But I guess you guys aren't here, so that's all right. >> Listen, man. I don't I don't know about you guys. I've been getting roasted on the timeline because I said the US has a pretty big chance of winning the World Cup.

And this is like the, you know, we've talked about like how crypto bros are more skeptical about crypto and like non-crypto people are like excited about the >> US people are like the US will never win. Yeah. And >> man, I'm Mexican. I'm Mexican Mexico will never win the World Cup. It's just like structurally like they just will never um but the US dude long US. If they don't win this World Cup, they they'll get pretty far and the poly market's like 2%. I think that is in my opinion a bit uh I will will I was with the guy yesterday who claims to be like a big football guy. I was like uh what are the odds of the US going to the semi-final in the final? He's like I'll give you 20 to1 10 to1. I'm like all right. And then I went with size and

he's like, "No, no, no, no. It's a good chicken out of the trade." >> I'm sure you can find like the public odds pretty comfortably and and get size if you want. Um I don't know. I can't see it. Uh that would be that would be a dream too far, but you never know. I mean, even in 94, I remember when I was a kid, like uh they they had the World Cup and they they did quite well comparatively, you know, for for Halloween. >> Comparatively. Jordy, where are you from? Who's your what's your team? Who is my team? You know, I was a big messy guy, but now that he's won a chip, I kind of I'm I'm not as like emotionally invested in him getting another >> You're an underdog kind of guy.

>> Yeah. You know, if if he wins it again, I I'll I'll be happy. He's my favorite player. Um which is cliche now that, you know, he's clearly the GOAT, but doing what he's doing at 39. I'm I'm, you know, I'm 41. Um, I'm also, you know, trying to extend my health span and and my like athletic abilities into my 40s as he is doing. So, I kind of maybe maybe Yeah, maybe I'm still cheering for Argentina. I want the old guy to show that, you know, 40 is a new 30. We can still get it done. >> I just all those Cristiano is 41. He's playing pretty good, >> but he has he has like a insane health regime. But Jordy, I mean, I know you've been long in the longevity track. Did you see the what is it mind journey uh

today or yesterday announced uh >> midjourney like I think like it's I don't know if you've been following like just what's it feels like it's uh the next leg of uh of advancement. I'm now I'm now very long Eli Liy because I just think that I I think basic my prediction on this stuff is that the um the only way to turn public sentiment on AI because we're going into the midterms right in the US and there's going to be so much hate towards data centers that the um you know anthropic and open AI have to I don't know if you guys saw I think it was Sundar got booed or there was a walk out I think it was Sundar did a did a commencement speech at Google >> at at or excuse me at Stanford and the students walked out on the guy. So, the

amount the amount of hate towards AI right now is is it's not even close to an all-time high because that'll be around the midterms um when the politicians have to be anti-data centers. But, um I think the only way back that they come out of this is to convince the public that it is making everyone healthier. And um if you look at like yeah I I I actually wouldn't be surprised if OpenAI or Anthropic in-housed a lab like a bio like a biotech or something and they bought a biotech company. >> Yeah. You know u for all the promise of AI I feel like the two categories are coding that has been completely revolutionized uh software is not going to be the same ever again. And then the one that is slowly happening that will

take years is health, biotech, discovering new drugs. And the amount of money that people spend uh on like GLPs compared to AI, you know, we all talk about the AI spend and a lot of it's circular [ __ ] but the amount of money that people are spending on like just trying to not to be fat asses is actually like, you know, it's it's more like that's a bigger industry. It's it's a bigger damn everyone will spend money to to be healthy and look good and especially at this point, everyone has to um you know, focus on this if you're if you're going to be competing in the in the the marketplace. So, very bullish on that category.

>> Are you on are either of you guys on peptides? >> No. >> So, I don't like needles and for the time being like I just don't want to inject anything and um I'm not against the concept and I think the concept is good. I'm taking some peptides that are bioavailable enough orally that are more chill peptides. They're not GLPS. Um, but I'm on like four or five peptides that have some oral bioavailability like BPC, NAD. Um, be taking some SLU PP 332, the sloop. Um, so there's a few there's a few that are working. Yeah.

>> What what do you um what do you report? Like have you seen any measurable uh >> I have lost your health or >> Yeah, I've lost 12% body fat from 26 to 14 which is a huge change in >> and that's like you're still exercising the same amount. You're like not really changing much other than >> No, I am like this is not the peptides. This is like hardcore 15 20k steps a day like three times lifting just clean diet doing everything. >> Right. >> Yeah. Because because I I remember looking at the timeline like a year ago you started on this health train and really optimizing your sleep hygiene and all that and you know >> Santi's like I remember a year ago you you weren't looking very good and uh >> no no no but he he had a you had a was

it a year ago Jordy? It was like it was like a good post around uh like hey I'm like I'm like it was in November I think so it's been about eight months that I've been pretty hardcore. Um, hey Rob. How you doing? >> Rob, I don't think you want to join this show, my friend. We're We're not We're talking longevity and peptides. We're not talking stables today. >> I, you know, maybe I could use some peptides. I feel like I've been, you know, I've had like one of those months. I've been traveling a bunch, been eating too much. So, like, I feel like I need to be here to learn something. >> Yeah. All right, let's um Can I Can I shift us, Sante? Or you want to you want to keep going?

>> No, no. I I was just going to say um do you think that public sentiment is uh now now there's like a greater public enemy. It's no longer a crypto. Like would you go as far as saying that there's more um negativity or negative sentiment on AI than it is for crypto? I guess crypto has just faded to irrelevance. >> I think it's just inequality in general is going to be a huge theme over the next like five years and it's just going to get bigger and bigger going into elections. I think Elon being a trillionaire and and swinging like 600 billion in a day is probably not what these college students want to see. Um, so it's less about AI per se than about just like people feeling left out of

what's happening. And I'm very lucky I'm in the, you know, crowd that is on the forefront of being able to look at some of these deals and seeing some of this stuff. And even I feel like left out. And so I can only imagine when you go like, you know, several degrees down what it feels like. So I I I think I think that's the main sentiment. >> There's a I was just going to wrap up this segment by saying there's a great um 20BC podcast with CEO Perplexity that I think just delivers like a really compelling message of like dude, anything's possible now with AI. and he's he he along with other folks like the semi- analysis guy and others have been like it's really been a a disservice that Daario in particular has just been so negative about just just emphasizing on job losses and it's just

like someone he went as far as saying like someone just told Dar to like stop talking and have someone else >> it's no wonder Fable got we should talk we we should actually talk about this export ban on on Fable right like it's no wonder that so so June 9th I think I I think about a week ago they released Fable um which is like the open you know the public version of of the the hot the hot mythos model that you know everyone was so scared about and um I think it was like three or four days later Lutnik and you know you know US government basically said we don't want you to export this to the world uh you know there's like an export banthropic can't limit it to just US users and so they they shut everyone they shut it down um

so I think it was the first example of yeah obviously it's worked well for him to talk about how uh you how crazy an the anthropic models are and you know how it's going to create job losses. It's good for fundraising until the US government, you know, until that message turns on them. So, >> I mean, I don't I I think there's a there's an interesting question here too because Jordy made the point around everyone feels like they're missing out and inequality and I totally agree with that, but I do wonder like I don't think it's just that like I do think that Daario basically and like others basically going around and be like, "Hey, like you're all like over and over and over again has created uh a lot of fodder for like misperception about like what what we're

doing and um you know there is some people on the timeline that are you know spinning positive messages but it's always easier it's like human nature to be negative and so and even like the people who aren't building in the space but like a lot of the investors you know the the catrini article and a lot of these other things like people like these sort of like doomsday scenarios in a lot of cases And like the other side of it is just like to the point around the perplexity is just being like actually like you know entrepreneurship is rising at quicker rates than it has in like decades. Like the people are building new things at with like less people and less money and it's more efficient than it's ever been. And so there's there's there's this really interesting way or a kind of storytelling problem that I

think we have uh at the moment and that definitely didn't help Daario and Enthropic with the US government. Now I think clearly in my mind there was like overreach there and this tells you a lot about where the world's going and it's not good for uh for for AI production and innovation but uh there is a clear storytelling and PR problem right now. >> Yeah, if if you look at what all the the CEOs like Dario, Sam, uh Dez and obviously Elen's been long at this game.

They're spending all their marginal time on doing media and it's a huge amount of interviews that these guys are giving like um I think they've realized that the highest ROI as a CEO of like you know for tier lab is just to try to sway media in your favor and obviously they're not running their companies like somebody else has to be doing that they're just going around >> well Dario it came out that Daario has one direct report just as chief of staff and that the whole rest of the company reports to his wife and I think that's his Uh, I didn't realize that. I'm not Is that true?

>> Yeah. Yeah, I think so. He was on it, but he was like, "This is my sister." >> No, no, I think his chief of staff is Leo. Um, what's the guy who's making a bunch of money? Leopold Ashen Brener, whatever. Um, what's that fund? Uh, situation. >> Yeah. Yeah. Situational awareness. >> His I think girlfriend or his wife is Daario's chief of staff. >> Got it. Got it. Um well well what I will say is I saw so so Fable got uh I tried it out on Friday when it came out. It was like a waiting for the moment to happen and uh and then it got banned on I think on Sunday and then I think the conversation really because we got to bring it back to crypto is uh open source models and I think there's been a lot of chatter around like hey this just

further emphasizes the need to have open source models combined with the idea that like performance for open source models is like is catching up to some degree. And so I don't know if we should talk I think we should talk about um uh that in particular like uh I don't have exposure to any of these projects and but like Venice and some others like I feel like that um if I were to pick like a a narrative that is percolating and will just continue to be more important is this idea of open source models and that you shouldn't be using like a Ferrari to get a you know uh for everything right token spend is should be a little bit more discerning and routing token spend is is going continue to be a theme and so I think this is a moment for crypto to shine if if it can

deliver on the performance. >> I see Rob rolling his eyes. >> Yeah. Well, I'm a little majority think I do think there's um there's a question here about what like like let's say an open source model was the most powerful model, right? And let's say, you know, if you believe Daario's analogy that this is like, you know, uh this is like a nuclear bomb and like has the power to wreak havoc or to do good or to deter people and has the power to do a lot of different things, right? And if you believe that if an open source model is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb, it's not clear to me that the government is not going to want to get

in the way of that as well, right? And if that's true, like they will try to find a way to limit your access. And while I believe like privacy is a human right, I don't think that, you know, crypto wants to be in this situation again where we're like, well, actually the main use case of this thing is to circumvent the government, right? I think we need to figure out a way to work together on those two things. uh and so I agree that the you know open source models uh are good and I agree that they're getting better and I agree that there's a lot of different use cases for which um a lot of these non US models uh should be used and I think

access and privacy are a human right but um I think you know access and privacy in this specific instance where people see this as a potential you know national security issue is going to be really hard for us to navigate as like, oh, hey, this is just for crypto, right? Like for for for currency, it's a little bit easier to make that conversation. For what people believe as a nuclear bomb, I think it's going to be hard to to manage that. >> I think the the geopolitics are super important as well, given that they've kind of said like America first, which doesn't really work well. I mean, you immediately saw people saying first of all, the employees are many of them not

American. you have uh deep mind which is like you know UK based and then you start kind of talking about like NATO coalitions. Okay, maybe Europe needs to let us in guys like you know we Europeans have been not innovating anything but we're we're kind of like aligned to let us in and obviously on the other side you have you know China pushing very hard on their own models and the open-source thing I think I'm less interested in them ever becoming frontier models. never believed that that was ever going to be possible. But I do think that being 6 months behind is not a big deal when the government is basically like censoring that extra 6 months of progress and not letting letting it be public anyway. And so to Santi's point for like normal tasks, you will probably

just want a cheap uh open source model and that's something that you can run locally or you know with with crypto rails. Um, and the stuff that is the cutting edge, the dangerous stuff will probably be out of view. Uh, that thing that's already established now, the gauntlet has been thrown by the US government. So, it's it's a very interesting game theory. >> Yeah, this reminds me a lot of uh in crypto we've had uh certainly like folks like like countries like China banning currency uh and and there's always a way to like circ. But also, uh, you remember the days where Bitmine would release kind of their ASIC and most people would say, "Yeah, it's like six months like they they've had six months or nine

months to mine ahead of you and just like and then like monetize it." I feel like that's going to be a theme in in um in AI, people that have access to compute, people that have access to, you know, it's really hard to build data center. It probably takes, I think, four years to like get a new data center approved. It's only going to continue to go longer than that unless you know we figure out space uh with with space AI. But I I still think there's a place for open source models. Um you know even I think Case had a pretty good take here like he he was like look for a long time I've been saying that there's a gap between open source and closed models is going to widen because of the data gap because of the hardware gap and increased restrictions. U he said I was

wrong. ZAI is on another level. Incredible benchmarks on this model. Um he's like now running his Hermes agent on GLM 5.2 via Ask Venice. Um so yeah, that's pretty interesting. >> It's interesting. I I am like much more bullish not on like privacy rails. I kind of agree with Rob's point like the government will always put national security concerns and bulldo. I think tokenization um is really what is showing to be by far the most promising and I think we'll have a big tokenization um of like AI either compute or tokens like um to raise money for the next run

or like the like there will be some tokenization happening. I think it's just the rails are way too good and um I'm sure that open AAI and all these guys are looking at it. I mean they've already everyone's already experimented with some amount of crypto uh when you look at these labs and I think um tokenizing I mean we can talk about the coinbased thing later as well. That was that was very exciting to see that there's so much kind of overlap happening now. Um but that's the that's much that's the much bigger category.

Yeah, I I and I want to like I kind of like I agree with Sy's point that like the gap between open source and and like closed source models is is closing. Uh or at least they're not that far behind. Uh and I think and I think that will probably continue to be true. Um it it's just that like if everything is getting way better, it'll still be a national security issue, right? And like to the point that you made earlier around well you know China you know banned uh you know Bitcoin mining and then you know there was ways to get around it. Well um I there wasn't really for a lot of Chinese people in China number one uh and they were like they they they really got a strangle hold the industry

basically died there. People moved out of China uh to continue to operate in the industry. Um and in this case it won't be like oh well just like China did it. It's not going to be like because of the fact that people see this as an arms race. It is going to be that like there are control if it gets to that point. There's potentially controls in the US and then in the EU and in China and kind of everywhere and it becomes u like the free flow of like you know AI models could theoretically just come to like a halt at some point. This is a little dystopian but like I it doesn't seem that crazy to me.

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>> No, I think you're right, Rob. To try to make this maybe more tangible. So, let's say there's three buckets here. There's the uh there's the closed source providers. You go long. It's almost like okay so what do you do with this information? You can go long anthropic or Google or open AI. Let's call that one bucket. You could go along the open source models which are like uh you know mini you know minax and deepseek and you know Chinese models but also I think meta's models open source. I think maybe XAI might be open source. Let's call it the open source models. And then there's just the the the routers or um you you could actually bucket this as like there's open router. You could put Venice probably in this bucket too. um where you you kind of say that um I mean I think our philosophy of block works is

that most people internally at block works actually shouldn't be using the frontier mo the single greatest mo like when fable 5 came out you know it's you the natural inclination is to want to ask it your normal questions but it's actually like only probably 5% of the work that we're doing at block works should go through fable and we should actually put every like most questions should be done on like 4.6 or 4.8 eight. So, yeah. How how do you think about those three buckets, Rob? >> Yeah. I mean, I um I don't think that's wrong. Uh and but I also do agree. Um we're we're seeing this a lot where uh like token maxing I think is like now there's like a a backlash against it because it kind of makes no sense. Uh

just spending more money to spend more money is is not a good thing. And for the vast majority of workflows today, you absolutely can use an older model and you should be using an older model, especially for the things that, you know, most people are are doing. And that's only going to get more true as uh as you know, these things continue to get better. Uh and we're seeing a lot of like infrastructure companies now build to do like quote unquote like smart routing for like different types of workflows. And I think that's probably the future is that you'll see this like infrastructure layer especially for like the agentic uh a lot of the agentic work that's happening where you know instead of you Yano or you know you engineer at block works having to like pick what model they use and figure it out you're

these things are going to have so much data that they're going to they're going to have a company or some sort of you know router um with compute and uh that they're training themselves in between that is uh going to be able to you know take that inference and and route it to the right foundational model for that use case for the speed of which they want to do this thing on uh you know etc. And so I think we're going to see like we're going to see a a wave of companies kind of in that middleware uh layer. >> Are you guys enforcing that at the company level like like you just tell employees say you have a you have a cap on token spend or is that still very much uncapped?

>> We we've basically just run it uncapped for a while for the our our thesis. So this was you remember the podcast we did like 9 months ago. We cuz we we needed to get the whole company using AI first. So that was like the first thing was like almost we didn't it wasn't mandatory but it was like we had to get everyone there. So we basically gave people an unlimited budget. Um but you were but you we wanted people to post in this shared Slack channel called AI Kitchen where it was like inspiration. It was like oh if you're a salesperson like share what you're doing and an engineer can see it and then a data analyst can see it. So, but now like actually ramp just rolled this out where you can actually start to get better visibility into your AI spend. So, you

can be like, "Oh, the finance team is spending like 17% of our tokens. Like, what's the output there?" So, we will we are now just starting to clamp down on to on token spend. And you you actually you don't want to clamp down too much, but like starting to get we basically said run wild for six months and now let's start and then we'll learn what the ROI actually is. and and but but now we've I think Rob's right like we're entering into the second phase of token spend for companies and you have to get a little more tight with it. >> Yeah. And I and I didn't fully answer your question earlier to Yano as well but like I think that's happening and then I think to to your point earlier about like OMA is like open source and whatnot. Meta is still a US company and

you know obviously uh you know the most of the com most of the um employees like live in California and so like if they open source something that like is seen as uh you know potentially you know outside of the national security interest of the US like that thing will will will go away uh as quickly as there there will be a lot of attempts to try to block any future innovation there. >> Yeah. There there's there's um this goes back to like uh Leopold like I think like was raising the flag this at OpenAI like you should not be open sourcing stuff like it's it's a ma matter of national security and the question is like have models become just so advanced and have we reached the point where like the stuff that is already open source are just poses a you

know threat to national security. Um cuz I think like there's I saw in the timeline like even even during that weekend like I think it was some some companies are just really good at um kind of backing into the waitings and all this stuff and uh yeah I I'm it's it's what I'm trying to get is like the so what like yeah you're going to clamp down but you already released an open source model that is pretty capable pretty sophisticated to do the stuff that perhaps you thought was a threat to national I I think we're still in like the third inning or the fourth inning of this.

Like if if even that far and I don't know what Jordy thinks. >> Yeah, I think fourth inning sounds about all right. There's there's a lot a lot to play out. >> What how many innings do we have, guys? >> What scale are we? >> Crypto Crypto's first inning, baby. First inning for Crypto. Um >> Super Cycle. Uh Jordy, do you have um do do you have outside capital or is it just your prop capital that you manage? >> We don't have outside capital at the moment. I you know I have a personal passion for asset management and efficient use of assets and that the world doesn't waste their asset allocations. So at some point we will have some sort of asset management

business. And I think proving to the world, you know, for five plus years that we're good at managing our own assets without having to ask for anyone else's >> is a good starting point to then be able to do things properly. And um we've had conversations with some sovereign funds and that kind of crowd. Um >> I I have I have a passion for efficient asset allocation is a beautiful line in a deck. Um so >> thing to say, but yeah. So wait, let me So my actual question here is like you you know you you can invest in anything because it's your own capital, right? So how do you think when the markets are so crazy right now like you can buy anything from the you know memory stocks to to Venice to SpaceX which just continues to rip to you know hyperlquid

or like you know as you know small mark small cap tokens like how do you actually how are you allocating right now? So most of uh because again we don't have outside capital so most strategies that we do are have some sort of capacity that we want to fill and um you know we can either do very high sharp systematic stuff or we can do more like tactical trades like SpaceX is something like we traded very long into it and now kind of getting flattish and then waiting for the inevitable short that we're going to put on given that uh you know this is a lowflat shitcoin as others have said like we've kind of seen this play out before uh when it comes to just month month uh

after month of unlocks and the the key sign I you know I'm starting to see our OTC brokers like the crypto brokers are getting locked SpaceX shares they're getting flow for locked SpaceX shares and so I'm like asking what the discount is I'm doing the same modeling I do with like the lock tokens >> crypto was made for SpaceX you You know what I mean? Like this is the moment for us to repurpose and just like trade the [ __ ] out of this is the answer. Like we got to get Ansom on here and see what he's doing, you know? >> Um but like so Jody, you're a great person to talk about this because like look if you're if you're have a mandate with LPs to invest only in crypto then like you know you could try to get a

waiver and but you know you have to stay true to your track record. Uh, and that's not a dig. That's just like you have to stay disciplined and invest and but because it's mostly prop like how have you like changed your portfolio since 1010? Like why even playing? It's I mean it's been pretty abysmal and difficult other than hyperlquid and maybe some marketmaking stuff but like like um what percentage of your book is long short what percentage of your book is like market neutral and and have you made like pretty have you made drastic changes to the book over the last like six nine months I mean the venture book is since since 1010 I think we've done three crypto deals uh total did Canton

we did catalyst with SEOA and we did one more um we've done maybe like 15 to 20 frontier deals between like AI and biotech and um you know the other stuff we're bullish on is of course like defense uh precious metals like not precious metals like uh you know rare rare earth rare earth stuff we're trying to get get you know these >> like a like a copper or like deeper heard past that >> then [ __ ] like you know like what whatever is like the the stuff that is is going to be like you know the bottleneck uh whatever China's controlling you know you have to kind of

play out that we're going to have some kind of escalation between geopolitical uh rivals um I I I think like it doesn't make sense to try to like back prediction market number 18 at this point like we do see like some people trying to get into those categories, but I I just tell the founders, hey, like we'll we'll happily invest at the next stage, like once you prove traction, but just like pre pre-traction, um there's there's just too many people with a pitch deck and I'm not playing this game again, like I just want to see some proof in the pudding before uh doing it. And we're happy to get later, like we'll we'll we'll join the more expensive round. Um,

>> is is crypto like at the too hard bucket right now given the opportunity cost of like doing stuff that the market likes and clearly is in favor? >> Crypto and like I mean you know like I think like there are things in crypto that can do well. Um, Bitcoin has been very disappointing with with kind of Sailor's uh blunder uh with with like the the two billion buyback he did. But still still bullish Bitcoin. I think the L1's it's hard to see a catalyst there for like you know the ETH soul kind of um trades right now. I'm not sure what what those would even be. Um you know Hyperliquid is interesting. We

are still long but we've been scaling some out you know at this level. The the revenue hasn't changed in like since ever like it's never changed. It's it's always just like under a billion a year. sort of like in that range and they can potentially turn off this growth fee switch that right now they're like really reducing the fees for the trady products but it's not clear how that would affect volumes and um it's kind of like unis swap like you always said oh yeah like unis swap can just turn the fee switch on whenever they want but it's not that simple like LPS want their share and then you know people won't trade above a certain slippage so it's not that simple and I think hyperlquid can't just like triple the the the the

kind of RWA fees that overnight and and that's going to go smoothly. But um still like the multiple now feels a little bit driven by like the DAT buying more than you know the expansion of uh of their trading. Um >> yeah, we we had the podcast was a month ago when it hit uh 63 or whatever. We were like literally on the pod while it was in 62 63 for the first time. Um, and we said on that pod, or at least I said on that pod that I that I thought it was like fully valued at that point. Uh, but that like, you know, clearly there's momentum and there's flows and there's the the um, uh, the DATs and the ETFs and, you know, there's excitement uh,

about like what this could be in the future. But, but I think from a to your point, Jordy, from a multiple perspective, from like a fundamental perspective, that argument has kind of gone away now. I think in terms of like oh well it's like undervalued on a on a relative basis. Uh and so now like very much I think you have to underwrite whether or not you think this is just going to take market share from you know centralized entities and CME and like all that kind of stuff which I I I do think is a uh and may maybe we should talk about the CME Terry Duffy stepping down but also them you know uh filing suit against CFTC today but but I I think it is hard to underwrite and I and I said this before uh like DeFi really taking a market share from like

the CMEs and ISIS of the world uh any more than it than it has today um in the near term and it was maybe in the long term as I think Mike Celig chair Celig of CFTC on on the um the pod that I did with him uh started talking about he stopped talking about DeFi and started talking about onchain finance and I think the reason that he made that distinction was very clearly around like oh onchain finance where the exchange can operate within our rule set that includes KYC AML appropriate reporting etc. And we see a real need for that but we don't necessarily see the need for um or do we want to perpetuate you know DeFi as we as we talk about it which is you know call the non KYC uh you know permissionless etc. Um and so I think um

uh that does feel to me like where hype is right now and that's been been the story recently. So I guess the question maybe to you Jordy and it is interesting to hear you talk about some of those rounds that you just did because you talked a little bit about like the fundamental of of of you know crypto and then like at least one of those rounds that you did uh you know we we looked at and we were like there's like zero revenue and this is getting done at like you know hundreds of millions of dollars in valuation uh and we're not really sure how you underwrite this thing. Um but I think maybe just the excitement for what the world can be has shifted to other uh other you know types of verticals and and other types of industries.

>> Jordy on Hyperlid um like you always need like something to like initiate the next bull run. Uh Salana did that I think last cycle uh very cleanly like from $8 to 60 and then the FTX sales clearing and bankruptcy I think like cleared air to it went all the way to 240 and then you know I think there were spillover effects to that. Um interestingly this cycle like obviously prediction markets have have privately like you know been prediction markets and rain you know uh and a few like growth investing that the public market to your point public market didn't participate in that. So, uh, Hyperliquid, I mean, I guess like there's some wealth creation there, but it's interesting hearing you say that there's like a cap in revenue. It sort

of stayed flat. Mind you, this is on the back of like, um, very interesting volume for RW point oil given the Iran escalation and then, uh, uh, Cerebrus IPO and then SpaceX. If that's the cap then like and if Hyperliquid has that ceiling at 60 70 bucks like what does that mean for the the rest of the year? What does that mean for the rest of the cycle? Like what are you excited about that you could you know this is why I sort of was mentioning open source models and maybe this is where VEN is kind of there's some sort of renaissance to crypto and open source and what have you and some AI kind of things run.

>> Yeah. No, it's a it's a very it's a very valid framing. I I think you know first like the Salana thing I was always kind of maybe like the only person really warning that the Salana thing was not going to last because at the end of the day it's not money. They're not trying to make it a monetary instrument and then when you and it's not a good monetary instrument because it has unlocks like for years like it's it's not doesn't have the things that you want as like a monetary instrument. And when you take that out of the way, like is it is it worth 250 billion based on a multiple of like, you know, fees burnt? Like it doesn't really like make sense. And I think people have kind of started capitulating on that being onchain NASDAQ. It already seems like

it's it's doing okay. It's fine, but like you know people want to trade per they want they want decentralized in their funds but they want a centralized people love a centralized thing that just works like even uh you know hyperlquid in many ways is more like a sex like it kind of has that uh central control. It's not trying to like fill blocks in a certain way. Uh so that's played out and then the hype thing is similar. It has this cult following. You know people have done really well. The fact that people got in early and are natives is great, but revenue-wise, um, the only way that it goes up is through the RWA stuff because altcoins, you know, haven't really grown or is not

a growing segment. And you, you know, they have trade XYZ, which is a private company. Again, to your point, like people aren't participating in trade XYZ. They've tried to farm it, but there's no token on the horizon. and they're the ones like you know I've uh participated in discussions on hip 3 because you know we we kind of tried to help with the dream cache deployer we tried to do a tether one you know it's been very difficult to do UST on uh hyperlid now that they've enshrined USDC but participating in like what's the number two deployer and you kind of see that XYZ is sort of it it's it's in a really unfortunate spot because they're sort of like the core team like they're sort of trusted

as the core team because they've they've had that like close partnership but the revenue from it I think they're raising like a new round like you know in the billions and that's not going to anyone like no one's getting uh xyz revenue and that's the thing that's really growing so there will be some conflict potentially between all the stakeholders in that ecosystem and it's right now it's kumbaya because it's going up the dads are buying but as we saw last year when the dads stop buying you know things kind of change real quickly and between xy shareholders, the hyperlquid stakeholders, the people actually paying the fees. Um, you know, like they're only willing to pay certain amount of fees. Um, you know, like that that potentially is clouds in the horizon,

even though Jeff is clearly being, you know, like like an amazing uh executor for for what they've built. >> So, Jordy, if you don't own Hype, you don't own Soul, Bitcoin's a little scary because of the Sailor blowup. Are you long any crypto tokens right now? We are buying more and more Bitcoin on this dip. I mean I like you either bet that this thing is like going to zero somehow or you know you just wait out the storm. And I'm not saying the storm is just going to be fine like right away. Uh I am surprised it stretches at 85 as we speak or something like that which um like is there a point at which like Sailor just starts buying that back up like just kind of >> Yeah.

>> You know like that would be like the Justin Sun playbook. He's always like deep pegged his stable coins just to get them to 80 and then buy them back. And >> yeah, when while we're recording it said 85 was earlier in the pot, I think >> he's also he's only got he's got less than eight months of dividend coverage right now. You know, like I I think he's >> Go ahead. >> I want to go there, Rob. Like like what does that mean? Like what when someone hears you say it's at 85 like can you unpack that for the normal like for just regular user and what are the implications of like what the market thinks like Micro Strategy can or can't do or if it's going to be a for seller.

>> Well maybe Jord should talk about he's the uh he's the trader. >> I mean I mean look like there's definitely a panic that this is thing is going to be like a Luna um where it just sort of spirals down. I think it's way overblown. He's still raising 200 million like a week and he's keeping half of it cash, half of it he he's still buying Bitcoin just because I think he wants to show like okay let's let's show that we're not stopping to buy Bitcoin. Um I don't think he's going to sell Bitcoin anytime soon. Obviously like if you're a shareholder of MSTR um there might be reasons not to be like very happy right now because that's the that's the thing that's going thrown that's getting thrown out uh first. Um, but

you know, the fact that Elon is wealthier than all of Bitcoin and he's like one guy, uh, I just think that this asset is still very undervalued as the primary monetary digital instrument. We are buying Zcash. Uh, I know like a lot of discussion about Zcash and like the the bugs and what's going on. I think at this price it's a it's a good hedge as a potential monetary instrument and I do like some things about it quite a lot. So we are buying more Zcash in the 400s.

Um yeah few more tactical plays >> waiting waiting for your venture book to uh launch or derisk. I mean there is also a I think there's a point though that like the market is flashing and I and I do think it's like overblown but you know stretch at uh 85 cents does flash and and by the way I think stretch is so they have some convertible like senior notes that sit on like top of the of the capital structure and then they have strife stretch strike stride in common. I think that's the the the way

the waterfall works. Uh and you know like stretch is kind of like near the top and so if that's at 85 like there is to Jord's point like obviously the price at least is is suggesting to you there's a potential that like they could one have to unwind this whole thing and that you know I think it's like a you know eightish billion of convertible notes and then you know some some stuff underneath it. And so I there I think it's suggesting to you that like the actual net asset value of the company if they had to sell right now would be like half of what his market cap is today right if I I have to go and do the actual math I don't know

what that looks like but like that's scary right now you know it's probably overblown to Jord's point and we're probably it's a a point in time flows thing but like it it the market is flashing red warning signs at you very very >> steady lads. You know this reminds me look I I got roasted on timeline because I said look there's a scenario with Bitcoin just goes down to 50 40 and you know at that point like what's stopping it from you know and I get it. Look >> I think the difference with like Luna is that when do Quan asked for a buyout from like Jane Street or you know like Jump >> they looked at it. They were like, "Okay, we could put another billion again, like compute more billion, but like do we like, you know, like no, we just want to keep our money." But if you

look at like Bitcoin at like 40s, there's too much money a wash in the world. I just can't believe that you won't get one of these guys just like Jane Street or someone just step in and just say like, "Yeah, like this." >> But but why but but dude, why would they if you're nibbling at this [ __ ] Like you mean like I I I didn't hear you say like we are [ __ ] loading the truck of Bitcoin at 66. You're you're doing other stuff. You're buying rare [ __ ] like as you should because you're prop investing in really overpriced AI rounds like the rest of >> are they doesn't matter like sprinkling sprinkling on. You know what I'm saying?

like like there's there's a there's a disconnect there in like I'm not buying this stuff right now because I shouldn't be like I just don't think I'm getting paid enough to long crypto none of crypto right now like maybe backpack and I'm an investor and we like because they're they did some interesting stuff. I'm not long anything in crypto except for this one thing where I'm a big >> that was the most random thing to >> No no but I I'm but I'm long already like venture stuff that I think is working like like but I'm not uh I'm not compelled to go out of my seat and like move capital away from public equities or fixed income or whatever venture not ex crypto into something like Bitcoin because it's in the too hard bucket like

I'm not gonna buy Bitcoin right now as this thing unfolds looking at stretch at 85. You know what I mean? And I think the game theory of that is like to your point who steps in and I get it like this is not Luna. There's like there's whales out there. There's a Larry out there like you have ETFs and at some point this like becomes compelling for someone that saw Bitcoin at 120 didn't didn't catch it then and is now oh this is at a discount I should have it in my portfolio. I think there's a lot of those people like the not just the Paul tutors, the macro guys, but there's a lot of like the tech guys that, you know, they see it and they're like, "Yeah, this thing's going to go back up." And now I have so much money from SpaceX or, you know, whatever thing I

did, it's at 40k, like it's like, you know, like the whole you could buy 5% of the thing. Yeah. Well, I think Jordy Jordan made a point here that I I actually want to sit on too, which is that like I actually think there's more optimism about crypto and the non-crypto like Bay Area guys today than there is in the crypto entrepreneurs like there is like if you actually go and you talk to Elon and you talk to I mean not even like he brought up you know like Brigger or Drunken Miller or like you know Wes Cazeres who's obvious who's been famously in this forever like like Elon and like Sam Alman are more bullish on crypto today than Like we seem to be on this podcast, the people who make all of our money from the space.

>> That that doesn't mean that that you could be I mean so out of the hundred uh SpaceX employees that made over like 100 or $400 million uh how many of them uh their wealth advisor is saying listen you got to put 5% of your newly minted and diversify away from SpaceX into Bitcoin? Like how like do you believe that those conversations are happening? >> I only need one Elon. I don't need I don't need any of these other guys. >> Yeah, exactly. You meet one guy and like do these guys have space like like advis like uh do you think they have some like old financial adviser on a suit like >> I but but most of the flows I think have come from RA like when we went up to 120 we talked a lot about where are the

flows coming from and I think raas still play a huge gatekeeping role in the wealth of America. I see Rob agreeing with me and >> I have a thing I have a point I want to make after you're done here too. >> Okay. I I I will be quick. So So if that's true then I think you have to again go into the psychology of the wealth managers and the RAAS. Are they going to are they going to put their neck out and say hey you should probably get exposure to Bitcoin right now? >> Dude, I think they I think they are because what are they going to say? Go buy SpaceX at three trillion or go buy you know Google that's up like you know 100%. Like, >> but but my point is a lot of them did that over the last year and now they're

in a very uncomfortable position with their clients where they're like, "Dude, you should have just told me to like go long everything else except this shit." >> Yeah. >> I I don't believe we're fully penetrated at all, by the way. Like there's only a very small subset of RAS that probably did that. And so from a TAM analysis, you could probably get super bold up, but it's difficult. Well, but I was going to say that and the and this kind of agrees with your point which is that the amount of alternatives that are now making their way through the uh the RAA platforms and the wealth management channel has exploded and that like the there's insatiable demand. I mean, you probably see it with like your bankers that you're seeing like the amount of opportunities you're seeing on the alt side or the fund side is just like so

much higher than it used to be. And I think Bitcoin is part of that story for uh for a lot of these wealth managers. seen a little bit more of that and you know we've started to see it a little bit with um uh I think some of like the big wirehouses specifically are starting to say oh well like you know do a little bit of IBIT or whatever um because we've just seen alts explode in interest privates uh you know private equity um some of the funds IPOs uh you know etc I mean like I >> it's fairly it's fairly concentrated you know like when you private equity as a whole has not been Like a lot of people are like, "Hey, look, we haven't gotten DPI." It's really like they want to get into single SPVS of the next SpaceX and that crypto doesn't fit into that

conversation. I've seen single SPVS from like wealth managers say, "Hey, look, we have uh neopimes, we have robotics, we have um you know, we have uh the next frontier model or what have you." Uh and and I think that's getting like a lot of traction. I am not seeing much interest in like traditional strategies uh because there's been just so immense wealth creation in the SpaceX IPO. Everyone was like if you missed it, you're really having a hard conversation with your committee and it's like you cannot miss the next SpaceX. Go figure it out. >> We are definitely in the FOMO phase and I agree that you're right. Nothing of what I'm talking about is really going to play out until we're a little bit cooled off and we're not going to cool off until people start losing money. the

first money will be the dumbest money. You know, like poker taught me that if you just give it enough iterations, enough hands, the money will always flow from like the the the dumb hands to like the smarter sharks. Always happens. Right now, what we're seeing for the first time, these like passive flows, these 401ks are being targeted in a way that they've never happened before. Like owning, you know, when I tell my family friends what to do, I just say, "Buy the S&P. Just just buy the index. It's fine. Like you, you know, it'll always go up." This is the first time where it feels like there's financial terrorism about to take place. This thing is going to like buy SpaceX at $200. Obviously, it's not S&P thankfully, but it is NASDAQ. It is Russell and it will inevitably like bleed. Like this is I'm 100% sure that

this is going to bleed like once once unlocks start happening. The dumbest money is being targeted in a way where it just has to buy. And you know, we've seen this in crypto before, like why has crypto dried out is because you know, the memecoin buyers and all like the kind of like less sophisticated people, they've just gotten extracted by people kind of like figured out how to get them. And now like people are figuring out how to like launch this massive IPO with low float, get it bought, and then, you know, it is what it is. Like it's it's kind of the game's over. And I agree with Santiago. We're at the phase where the family offices that we talk to like these like SPV Max everyone I'm talking like like smart capable investors that have never done an SPV in

their life and not only are they participating they're like I should make an SPV and like to be honest even sometimes like I'm like oh we got more allocation maybe we should make an SPV everyone is like seeing that there's so much FOMO from family offices the velocity of money like when you talk about inflation it's not just like monetary supply. It's the velocity of money and there a lot of money that's been like sitting in like safe instruments is moving. The velocity is high. We're in like this stage right now. >> But I so so J that's if that's the case. So I've always felt like a we're just in a new paradigm since Silicon Valley Bank went under to me and and the Robin Hood phenomena is like the velocity of money has gone up call it multiples and what what are the implications of that?

Crypto continues to be extremely volatile. This is why I'm just extremely bearish. Anything that touches financial engineering and I just for the life of me can't understand some of the decisions of Micro Strategy as it looks today. Two years ago is very different than what it looks today. He just went out too far out and too close to the sun. And if you play this hand over and over and over, you eventually kind of blow up. But remove the kind. You eventually blow up. If you run like a Monte Carlo simulation of what happens to Micro Strategy, I think eventually that thing blows up and and like who who's going to blow up? Is it the shareholders? Is it is it like you know they're going to have to

liquidate all the Bitcoin? I mean there still would be a clearing price for all the Bitcoin even if he like sells all of it like there'll be some funds. I just >> you have to either optimize for the question becomes do you optimize for stretch strategy stock or the Bitcoin? Right. So, because it's still trading above MNAV, it the the NAV is like 1.1, I think, or 115. So, he can actually just keep selling small amounts of Micro Strategy, you know, until the stock gets to like, I don't know, 7 mnav. And this, you know, and that would that would save Stretch and the Bitcoin would be fine, but Micro Strategy would get hammered.

Um, >> the stock Yeah. >> the stock would get hammered or he could kill the dividend, right? and the the preferred would fall to like I don't know 40 or 50 cents on the dollar. Um and >> at some point at some point some like a vulture fund steps in buys that because they think that the the warehouse bitcoin eventually like goes to your point Jordy. So maybe I'll peel back >> or he could sell the bitcoin or he could sell $5 billion of bitcoin and actually strategy stock and stretch would both do well. So, it's it's I think he it's you have to think about what is he which of those three is he trying to save? And I I think he's trying to save Stretch.

>> It just I I think I think like he's trying to he realizes like right now he's too important for Bitcoin to start dumping the Bitcoin and that will just ruin his balance sheet. So, he's going to leave that last and I think that's the right play. Um that will kind of keep things going. But again, my point is right now we're in an environment where there's just too much money a wash. someone will pick up distressed opportunities whether it's coins or like you know stretch or whatever it is there's too much capital for where it is and we've already like dipped you know I just have to like realize that the amount of dollars that we're talking about stepping in even buying all of Micro Strategies Bitcoin it's not what it used to be like 50 billion is not what it used to be like you can have

Jane Street just come in and use their quarter one earnings their quarter one earnings they can just like it's Not it's not the same. So >> or te Tether could just go in and step in a meaningful way. >> Yeah. >> So So what do you think uh we see Bitcoin at uh back to I don't know 100K or do we see Bitcoin what comes first? Bitcoin 100K or Bitcoin 40K? >> I think uh hard to answer that question. But what is clear to me is that the current path is going to be choppy. I I'm not that bearish. I don't think we get that low. I don't think we see 40.

Uh maybe we see 50. I don't think we see 40. Uh I think that's very unlikely we get maybe like on a one day kind of wick but I I really can't see that possible. I think where Bitcoin does extremely well is when people start worrying about the dollar again which you know you guys remember 2021 like there was a period after the 9% inflation. Gold got hot, Bitcoin got hot, people were looking for some kind of like neutral asset. gold like in my opinion um just kind of sucks like there's just a lot of inflation of gold and it just can't move it. You know, Dubai is getting bombed. You want to move your gold like how are you like you know it's not good. It's not it's

not great. Um so I just I still like the asset. I don't know. I think like the quantum thing was like the main thing that hurt Bitcoin uh six months ago. You got Chamath going on CNBC like talking about quantum and at this point nothing's going to happen on that domain for you know a few years and so the only thing that can happen is positive thing like they announce that they've agreed how to hard fork it or whatever. Um, if if I were Michael Sailor, I probably like try to really not go as much on CNBC or talk about like because some of the interviews he's done recently are like pretty weak. Like I think maybe privately go fly to and see Paul Tudtor Jones and go meet some of the large guys that really can move the market and if

there is a possibility where Bitcoin continues to drip down to 50 you have someone like that because I I heard in uh I think it was invest like the best or founders where I think it was um was it Paul Tudtor Jones that came out like he mentioned in that interview that he still likes Bitcoin like we need two or three guys like that or even an Elon to come and say like hey like Bitcoin deserves a place in the world and in the portfolio and if that's the case I think you you have like a renewed interest. Um but you need an anchor figure like that because sailor's lost that for better or for worse if you think I actually think that's probably positive like Bitcoin should never have like someone likes a sailor. You you definitely need like a drip of like good

PR. You talk about like a lot of these CEOs doing a lot of PR. We need more more Paul Tudtor Jones. We need like a Ken Griffin or we need like a a you know a uh you know the I don't know who like a Ray Dallio to come out and say like hey like I'm putting like there's a Mexican billionaire Selenas who's like like he's like 90% of his net worth is like you know Bitcoin but he doesn't compute as much as like a Pete you know Paul Tudtor Jones. >> When is Santi going to rotate out of some uh some memory stocks and then buy some more Bitcoin? I I I've been thinking a lot about what what that price is to be honest and I think it's sub 50 to your point. Like if if I get a chance to buy Bitcoin at

sub50, I I'd feel that it deserves a place. >> There's your savior, Jordy. There's your savior. >> Lord Jesus Christ. There you go, ladies and gentlemen. Guys, what else? Um let's rotate rotate the chat. What else? Uh what else happened this week? What else do you guys want to cover? >> Coinbase. Coinbase announcement. Wow. A lot of stuff. Yeah, Coinbase rolled out. Um, I mean, I don't know if any of you guys have a a list of everything that they rolled out, but bunch of bunch of stuff. Agentic stuff. Um, I can try to find a list right now, but bullish or bearish?

>> I'm glad they're trying it. Uh, you know, historically they've done NFT marketplaces and a bunch of stuff that kind of really do much, but I'm glad that they're doing this and they're trying to really create a super app where you have an advisor help you build a portfolio. I love this category. I've always said that like, you know, if I'm going to be a founder of another company, it'll be like something that helps people just have an app and and like manage their money. Like I'm very bullish that this is something that should use Crypto Rails. Um, and I'm glad they're they're doing this and let's see how well they do it.

>> I think so there was really So I was at the event uh I don't know if if if you were there Jano or anybody else but there was um really I guess it was like four categories that they talked about. Uh and so they kind of put it into you know the everything exchange side of it. So, it started with, okay, well, hey, we're offering preIPO pers and we're offering uh uh you know, prediction markets and we're offering uh combos, which I guess they couldn't come up with a different name than Poly Market was already using. Uh and they, you know, they were offering um a bunch of other trading stuff. Um and and then they're also like unifying their Coinbase International with the uh with with or at least allowing Coinbase National international

darebit to be for US investors to be able to use them and and that all felt like you know part of the course like what I would have expected. It's kind of what everybody's doing like you need to be a everyone's saying hey we're going to offer you know one-stop shop to trade everything that you want to trade and Robin Hood's doing it and you know etc etc. Robin Hood, right? Is there another one like is there another who else apart from Robin Hood? >> Well, all the all the international exchanges are doing the same thing, right? As well, right? So like Kraken's trying to do the same thing and you know Bick and Bed and Binance and like all these guys, right? And so like obviously it's a different customer base because it's a US customer, but to me that's almost less interesting because the US

customers have better access to most of these things than the international customer does. obviously like preipo per you know nobody does other than you know on hyperlquid um but like prediction markets like there's a lot of prediction market access in the US uh that you know doesn't exist internationally and you know etc. Um but yeah you know fine great like I think they have to do it and it looked nice and smooth and and you know I'm I'm on board with that. Uh then there was the developer platform stuff which I didn't really get how it was that different to be honest. Uh it felt like maybe okay well and I talked to a couple of the guys afterwards and they're like well listen like it wasn't that we were necessarily offering a new

product but what we did is we took a bunch of features and we made them more productizable for the people who wanted you know step into the um and use the developer platform. That's great. So I maybe I just didn't maybe understand the nuance there a little enough, but that seemed um you know like positive. I thought the consumer finance stuff was actually super interesting. Uh and I think maybe I'm a little bit you know I've said this to a few people but that seemed to me like the most you know innovative or outside of you know >> is this the AI AI investment advisor that they register?

>> Yeah it's in the RAIA. So so they they announced two things on AI. one was like, "Okay, well, you can bring your AI agent and like connect it to your account." Uh, and that is sort of like whatever. I think there's like probably six people who will do that. Um, you know, Robin Hood announced the same thing. But having the AI advisor in the RAIA in the regulated RAIA I thought was actually pretty interesting because um I do think there's this world where like Gen Alpha or Gen Z or whoever like you know they're already asking Claude like what should I be buying? They're not like you know doing the research that Jordi is doing necessarily. And so I think there is a world where we have this a lot of people who are this is how they're going to interact with um

interact with like trading and and investing. And so I thought this was interesting. I I do wonder what it means for like their legal surface area and for like you know potential lawsuits. But I think with them trying this is like very interesting and and cool. And I thought the the um you know the Bitcoin back mortgages were cool and the um where it's like you know it's they can be used in Fanny. Uh and so I thought I thought that was super interesting. And then they had the base and the um uh the payment stuff. Uh you know the payment stuff sort of seemed part for the course a lot of what they had already talked about. And then there was base stuff. And the base stuff was uh the main thing that he said there that I thought was interesting was um you know inherent privacy a transaction

level privacy. They didn't explain how they're achieving that. So, I'll be interested to see what happens, how they're going to achieve that, but that is obviously very topical right now and interesting and also has a lot of knock-on effects to like the payments business and to, you know, the other businesses as well. So, those were sort of the groups. Uh, it didn't feel to me like they were taking risks, but like maybe they're not supposed to be taking risks at this point, but I thought there was some it was a sort of a mixed bag, but overall good. >> It's sort of like their brand, right? like they have this very institutional brand. You don't think Coinbase and think like I'm going to get rich quick.

You think Robin Hood like oh maybe I'm going to hit my you know one one day option I'm going to get rich and you kind of have that association with the brand. Their brand is is like you know less exciting but uh maybe maybe more trusted. So you don't lose you lo crowd but maybe you get like a a bit more like serious crowd. I don't know which one is. >> I said they did they did launch uh options on equities on that on you know so maybe maybe you'll get the zero day options there too. >> It's not about the product. It's just like you know >> I got it.

>> Are people going to Coinbase with that goofy like the kind of very clean logo and the thing or they going to like to Robin Hood and they're you know they want to they want to make it now. I mean I'm not saying it's a good thing actually. Yeah. >> You get you get the confetti when you make a trade and you get the Yeah. Yeah. the noise the sound effects. So guys, I got to jump sadly. I'm sorry. Content of the week. I'm going to accelerate the content of the week. This is a good chat, Jordy. We got to have you back on. Jordy, we do content of the week. I'm sure you're a diehard listener and you make it to the end of every episode already, so you so you knew that. But >> you know, like this is one of the few

podcasts I still like tune in. Um maybe maybe this is the one I tune in the most. So, >> mission accomplished. >> You heard it here, ladies and gentlemen. Rob, content of the week, kick us off, my friend. >> Uh, I mean, there has been no content for me this last week, whether it's Knicks content or World Cup content. I'm telling you, like that is that is 100% of all the content that matters. I I have the parade on in the corner over here. >> I started by saying New York is electric right now. I feel bad for Santi and Jordy just in, you know, this failing state of Europe over there. Like, what what are they doing?

>> Yeah. Well, and and listen, and you see all these like, you know, all this stuff on social now, like the World Cup is here in the US, and all the Europeans are like, "We were lied to." Like, In-N-Out is the best thing ever. And like, >> Roberto, >> Roberto, the World Cup is in the US, Mexico, and Canada. Okay, >> that's true. I know. There's been some really interesting stuff coming out of um uh Mexico, like South Korea played. >> Roberto, Roberto, I'm telling you. >> Okay. Roberto, Roberto, the odds. I'm gonna tell Rob Roberto till the World Cup finishes. Uh, percentage probability probability of the US winning the World Cup. It's a 2% of poly market 4% of poly market right now. And I'm

going to tell you right now >> on poly market, I put down money that they would win the World Cup and when it was at 1% and that they were going to be Paraguay by more than two and a half. Look what happened. So, and by the way, >> forget about memory stocks. Forget about crypto. Just trade. >> You know what I'm doing after this pod? I'm getting on a flight to Seattle to see them in tomorrow against Australia. >> I'm going to paint my chest. I'm going to be on TV. You know, I'm going to be right there. USA. >> I love that. >> That's the content.

>> Jordy, follow that up, my friend. Content of the week. >> Uh, yeah. The only time I have for content is like uh 30 second Instagram reels and my obsession right now is healthy ice cream. This is like changed my life. Like I >> Oh, there's Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know. Ex. Yes. Go. Sorry. >> There's all these people making Ninja Creamy recipes. >> The Ninja Creamy. Change my life. >> Change my life. I'm so I I I saw ninjas on sale on Costco or was on Costco. >> Yeah. Ninja Creamy. Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's my >> Jordy, we got to share recipes, my friend. This is good. >> Exactly. Exactly. That's my >> You know what they say? You know, you've reached adulthood when you have not one but two Dysons and then now, of course, thinking about, you know, homemade ice cream recipes. >> The Ninja Cream is the new Yeah. Yeah. >> Ninja. >> Got to get them to sponsor the show. Santi, what do you got? >> Uh 20 BC Henry Stebings interviews the CEO of Perplexity. Uh really interesting. Uh he I I listened to it like late at night. I couldn't go to bed. likeing electric. Go listen to that.

>> Make you want to long more memory stocks. I will say that >> I'm long markets markets markets up today. So, I'm happy. >> I know. I know. >> All right. I will uh I'll bring it down a notch. I got the uh the Nadal documentary on Netflix is incredible. It is one of the best sports documentaries. Oh, yeah. I mean, they talk about that, you know, he's got the >> the wedgie. This This won't ruin it. He um that dude was loaded up on painkillers like for the second half of his career and and the public had no idea or maybe maybe they did. I I I you know I I was a fan of Nadal and you know the M Murray and Federer and you know the rivalry and but at the time I mean I was younger like had no idea that he was

in so so much pain. It just it's a documentary that shows you like how far the human body can be pushed. It's really really good. So >> I think tennis might be one of the more degree. Like if you look at a tennis player, he looks like that is like 20. He looks like he's 40. It's crazy. I don't know what >> Well, and you're in the sun every day. >> All right, folks. >> Jordy, good to see you, my friend. Roberto, enjoy the game. Santi, >> Jordy, you got to come back. >> Like to play a little Wimbledon here. You know, >> I play tennis. Play tennis. I'm I'm I'm picking back up. You guys should come. You know, you know, one of my favorite uh clay courts. I'll invite you guys next year. There's a tournament out here. Really, really good. Better better. saw what happened when you

invited Rob and me to Monaco. We don't want to >> We'll make ice cream. We'll make ice cream and then we'll have >> We didn't play tennis. Santi was worried about what would happen. >> No, no. H took over the gym and was taking creatine. >> We're all out at this, you know, at this beautiful beach club and like, "Where's the creatine? Where's the creatine?" >> He brought his dumbbells to the club. >> All right, folks. Ladies and gentlemen, a good good time to end it. Have a good >> enjoy the World Cup. Go US. Cheers, folks.