Anna Rose & Kobi Gurkan: Zero Knowledge Proofs – State of the ZK Ecosystem - Part 2 #477

Transcript

this is the second part of a two-part series on the state of the ZK ecosystem um and we're speaking with Anna Rose um the founder of ZK podcast Z ZK Summit ZK validator ZK hack and probably um a bunch of other zks as well as Kobe um Kobe gin who is the head of research at geometry and works with Anna at ZK validator and ZK hack and is also cryptography advisor at clab if you've missed the first part part of this dou episode go back to last week's and maybe start with that one because it's it it'll segue um quite nicely from there without much further Ado let me tell you about our sponsors this week our sponsor

this week is Tello Tello is an open source wallet redefining the wallet as a public good with t ho you can safely connect to dii and web3 plus a lot more you can view your nfts in the wallet across ethereum polygon optimism and arbitrum they have Ledger support you can swap between assets and view all of your account balances across um in their portfolio tab currently they're running a layer 2 Adventure that rewards users for exploring the arbitrum ecosystem with Helo you can get a space St NFD and be entered into a giveaway for another NFD head over to T.C and check it out and with that let's head over to the second part of the interview with Kobe and

Anna so I think it it might be a perfect time to start talking applications because I think that was where you wanted you wanted to sort of hear some of these like novel cool ideas right absolutely that's what I'm here for nice all right so yeah we we did before this interview we compiled a bit of a list and a lot of these are coming by the way from these interviews that we've done recently and like trying to pull together like what you know what Dan for example this interview we did with Dan Bonet it was episode 56 like four weeks ago um it's a wrong number yeah it's a good number but yeah we in that he went through a bunch of examples so we can definitely share

those I also know in the interview I did with Matt Green I learned about some new ideas and generally I mean look if you look at what ZX Park releases in their videos when they do showcases that's like an amazing space to find out about like new ideas and not the truth is not all of them are feasible at this moment I think but still like set the goal like put the you know flag in the sand in the future and then let's build those tools so we can actually make these things possible I'm curious if you've been keeping up to date on this Kobe have you been paying attention to like Constitution Dow too just a bit so I like uh I I like the concept of

um of this Anonymous multi so that's kind of the what the nucleo team is doing so um they're they're using uh privacy technology to like one of the things that they're doing is to hide who exactly participate in the multi but in Constitution Dow they're using it to um hide the total amount that you would bid yeah exactly they're using this to hide the amount that you would bid because we all know what happened with the first constitution Dow where just because the amount was public it was just outbid um so yeah I think they're using this in a in a very cool way to to how to hide this but uh yeah that's the extent that

they know it so yeah this was the private Dows um one of the reasons for this was like and this is what we talked about in that episode with Dan was you know yeah when you're doing bding when you're actually in an auction and you can see what other people have as their Max then it's pretty easy to win the auction and I think that's kind of what happens so yeah this was a cool so this is a really cool use case for this um we do have penumbra which is like a privacy preserving deck so that's like and there's been a lot like Manta also had proposed something like this there's a lot of different like ways to think about what in a decks should be private and what can be private and what maybe can't be private um and so those that's just been an interesting conversation

space and like development space to to Define that I think penumbra's solution is really cool uh and just in terms of status though like you know they are still test Nets and like there's a lot to build before you can actually use these things and maybe we can mention like some cool experiments that we've seen from zerx spark right so I think one one thing that was really cool was this hey Anon experiment so U maybe you've seen that on Twitter but they they've been taking these groups that maybe uh have some relation amongst the people so for example all the people that participated in the da

and got hacked you know so and now all of these people can uh send a message as a participant or as a member in that group without revealing who who you are so that this is something that they've published which is um which is really nice like you can you can do that um some other cool thing that I think technically it's very Advanced that's called e dos actually I don't remember what it okay it's degree of separation that's the the acronym so it allows you to prove

[Music] um oh yeah who you know and like who that person knows and so on so how far in terms of the chain of people are you form vitalic that was the demo that they they they did so it uses actually like recursive proofs and extremely complex Machinery inside snarks to make that happen uh just to prove this degree of separation so that's something unique um and another cool experiment that uh that they did was cabal which allowed you to create is um Discord channels or telegram channels that have um

pseudonyms um that are derived from again a group of people that you know uh in um beforehand but when they join the channel then nobody knows who they were from that group so those are some cool experiments that we've seen um and I think uh we could also mention some of Dan's experiments right yeah so Dan told us about this project where they they're trying to almost do like image Providence even after it's been cropped or changed so trying to prove that like and I think the example or the use case here is like newspapers

that will crop an image but you want to know that it actually is from an original physic like or a digital file or Digital Image and so there's a zkp to like prove that it's actually from that original one and I know on our show we talked about maybe even extend ending this to music or to film and like being able to prove like if you edit film that it's connected to an earlier version of that video footage which is pretty exciting this is this is like one of these non-blockchain ones there is another non-blockchain one to mention this is mentioned on the episode I did with Matt Green where apparently and I don't know any real details on this but apparently Google is looking to use zkps to like comply with gdpr rules but still

use private data so it's almost like to go around some of the privacy rules like using it to like oh we can make it private with zkps but like actually doing things that normally they wouldn't they shouldn't be doing um or I don't know I actually don't know enough about this to cast that much shade but um yeah I do I want to mention also like a project that is live which uses it and that's ssmo so we actually had them present at ZK hack and actually create these attestation badges it's pretty cool like it's I don't know Kobe do you want to you want to go through how it works I can help uh yeah sure actually like it's interesting because

um when when they started out like I was talking to the sismo founders and like actually I I think this is when when I was looking into Stark net so I was doing a project based on blind signatures that allow you to um get an notication from like some issuer but after you get this attestation the issuer cannot track you anymore because you blinded in the process so it was um it was a construction that I learned from privacy pass which is a project from cloud Flare from a few years ago um but I think nobody um really deployed it in this context so that that was fun and the sismo people also created something of

that sort when they started out and that's what allowed them to create these badges which are privacy preserving so you have some issues that maybe you trust or put some trust in but nobody can track you not even them after you do that but they have sense developed much more and they're using uh ZK and membership proofs like the ones that others like zikes and the projects from lithium Foundation are using and basically everyone that does privacy preserving transfers and they're now doing other kinds of

attestations um that have even less trust in them but still preserve this unlinkability properties they seem to Emer like people kind of treat them like Po apps but they have a much more interesting uh yeah like something private and detached underneath which is cool yeah no ssmo is one of the projects we've been meaning to have on for a while so uh yeah nice yeah other like so there's some there's some projects that have been around for a while like semaphor or CLR fund CLR funds like allowing you to do getcoin um type donations but privately as far as I remember um yeah and then

I'm trying to think like that there's two areas like well actually before I do that Kobe is there any other use cases that come to mind I think we've covered our list so yeah I think I think like um maybe there's Worth to mention that there is a big group in the eum foundation that's called like psse like privacy scill and Explorations they're doing a lot of projects that push the boundaries in ZK so semapo was in there which allows for anonymous messaging or signaling more correctly um SAR fund is based on Macy which is kind of a project that doesn't fit in the Box exactly of privacy or scalability because it uses snarks to

prevent collusion between people um so it creates a more secure environment for voting so that's that's really compelling and but there's there's a bunch of other projects that are being worked there so for example there is a ZK oo which combines private transactions with an optimistic rollup kind of construction and generally um they're doing like cool things um but I know what was the question no I think it was is there any other use cases I think what you're saying is like if you want to find the good use cases head to those places I think like yeah I think keep

keep watch it yeah actually as you're saying this I was just thinking about like so like any project that does ZK like any network they're going to have like a ZK education arm and they're going to want you know like they're creating a lot of content and ideas for their network but there are like these three groups and I think we count ZK hack in that it's like ZK hack xerx Park and and uh psse because like in that case I guess psse is still very in ethereum and actually xerx Park's very in ethereum but like generally there's a little bit more of a like a neutrality for where and how you could these things so they're just like ideas and libraries like things you can probably recreate in

other places and so yeah it's definitely like my source for for use cases so there are two big there are two big topics we haven't covered and that's ZK Bridges and zkl which is like the new very exciting field people are jumping into yeah so maybe we can talk audits is also something that uh I really want to talk about for a bit cool but ZK Bridges sounds good so uh there's there's uh the succinct Bridge it also came out of zorx park um in a way it's a little bit um it's a piece of infrastructure that

um most people didn't really expect right yeah uh can you talk about how it works uh yeah happy to so usually when you want to get a bridge like if you want the Holy Grail in some sense or at least something very very good you want something which is a light client Bridge so that you can verify the light climent protocol of another chain inside your chain and that allows you to get really high guarantees because you don't trust let's say like a multi Bridge a small Committee of signers or in an optimistic Bridge which is like

very secure but there is this synchron assumption or at least and it's also game theoretically secure and not like mathematically secure right yeah and like there is like Network dependency on on like latency and stuff of that sort so yeah exactly it's like different kind of security properties but a light clim Bridge allows you to overcome a lot of these difficulties especially in chains that have a deterministic finality where you can be certain that after a few blocks things will not change um which is true for example for ethereum 2.0 but not true for ethereum one so and ziky bridges make it possible

for chains that have let's say incompatible light clients um communicate with each other so when you want to verify the ethereum 2.0 consensus then you have to verify a lot of BLS signatures and you have to do it on a very specific elliptic curve and that that's pretty hard and it's pretty Compu intensive in the context of a blockchain so with the zig Bridge you just run that in that whole protocol inside the snark and then you just verify the proof which is like like we mentioned before a lot of l1s already support Primitives for proof verification so you can do that but you

cannot do the light client directly so zik Bridges give you that so for example so it's it's it's just a way of kind of getting the state of the of the other chain uh yeah trustly onto the chain that you're coming from right yeah exactly so you now that you know you can verify the life PL you now know what is the latest state so from there you can start making queries and check balances and check transfer messages or things like that so that connects them in a very nice way yeah and like if you look I did an episode while back on like different kinds of bridges and different security

for different kinds of bridges and these cryptographic Bridges tend to do best on the security front and that's where like IBC is like that um but I I it's funny because I thought for a long time people were just you can't do that on ethereum you just can't that was the way yeah everyone's like you just it was a paradigm shift right I mean so Bas just putting everything in a ZK sacket I mean it's uh it's it's it's kind of it's a trick but it's a trick that works yeah and it wasn't practical like two years ago right like now things have become much faster and much more advanced and people have become better at doing this and now it's practical it wasn't

practical two years ago so it's cool yeah yeah and there are so there's the succinct Labs there we actually did for like for zkv we do these events sometimes focused on specific networks so we did one on OS and actually talked about ZK Bridges so there was like we were able to find a few other teams doing something similar there is like a ZK IBC there is a team called ZK Bridge so um yeah that's maybe that's also over on the YouTube channel so if you do link to I can find it there you have Neil Foundation that also did this with Mina and ethereum status also has one now ZK bridge and there's a team coming out of um uh Barkley as well called I think spula so um yeah there's quite a few

teams now and um in a way this um this is something that uh we had no so basically the the first deployment of the suin bridge was between the nosis test net and uh and uh and gley the ethereum test that um so in a way we kind of we've been tracking um this very closely um yeah and but the thing is uh and this kind of leads me to my next topic um auditing this is so difficult because basically with a bridge and I mean with the number of bridge hacks

we've seen this year um let's hope let's hope we've seen the last of them for this year at least but um at more days yeah they eight more days so could be a couple of hundred million whatever but yeah so basically uh with the number of bridge hacks and the number of funds that are typically in bridges um kind of security is obviously of the utmost concern I mean obviously it sucks um with vulnerabilities and more or less anything but basically if it's um if it's uh uh if it's a game or something obviously it's not you know the consequences aren't that large but yeah how do you audit these ZK circuits how

do you make sure that the ZK circuit because I mean the bite code itself it's not exactly human readable so yeah how do you go about this so first of all can I just give a depressing thought about the security of like ZK deployments and bridges in general um this is yes but I will counteract your thought afterwards but go for it go for it okay uh let's try uh so the depressing thought that a lot of the hacks that we've seen have happened on let's say the integration layers so you have these uh complex Solutions like the circuits and all that and let's say the

optimistic protocols and that part but a lot of the hacks happen on the integration part let's say on the smart contracts um and so on where you find a that happens after you verify the complex part and I think that's a lot that that's the part that where hacker has put a lot of effort in and kind of something that is concerning me is that when they start looking at the more complex Parts maybe maybe they'll find more holes so we'll see oh you're saying like maybe yeah okay so like the H hackers haven't they didn't even need to go that deep deep the hacks

exact I mean I I'm totally with you I mean so basically the possibility space for making for introducing vulnerabilities in complex systems is so large and I even if you look at if you look at like um the the recent binance Bridge hack and so on it was actually pretty sophisticated already so basically the yeah so um how how we actually thought about this so obviously we we thought about this for a long time because I mean I mean we're German Engineers right so we we like thinking about security applications um yeah and audit so this is why audits yeah I but so far no major hacks so I mean so far you know for a

project that's been in the space for so long nosis has had very few like vulnerabilities I hope yeah that's good yeah I mean I mean when you talk about audits of ZK systems we do I mean just so you know what ZK hack when we introduce these puzzles they're often based on historic failures so actually like if you look at the puzzle page on the ZK hack site it's basically meant to show you here's how like a bug can happen here's how a vulnerability did happen but I think so I mean the zcash bug for example could have been horrific that could have been very bad which they don't believe it has been I did hear I

saw they come proof because it would have basically you you would have gotten more in the shielded pools right Bas you wouldn't have known after so in in their particular system there was a way to kind of prove that it didn't happen because of when they did the upgrade and the number of tokens like at some point to move yeah yeah not what everyone has but like just a total and so like had there been this exploit which just could like mint Infinity tokens you would have seen it but that's like a specific case where like like there was only like five people in the world who understood what was happening anyways and like they all worked there so like that's I think why that didn't get

exploited um yeah yeah but yeah but but Kobe how how how we were thinking about this this kind of security is kind of the it's kind of strengthen numbers basically it's like you need to add redundancy so basically you put like a SE and a SE and a SE and then basically you have something that doesn't is not very SE like anymore um so basically our idea and basically how how we're going to um uh because you don't want to test anything in production right so basic how we are going to kind of move this to production without uh endangering um uh client funds or user funds um is by actually creating a multi

of bridges so basically you have you have the old Omni Bridge which is basically multi based Bridge um and you put put put it in a multis with um the new ZK light line bridge and basically if they agree on a payout payout happens if they don't agree payout doesn't happen um and then basically you have to you H have to in order to compromise that you have to find the vulnerability in the ZK light Cline bridge but at the same time you actually have to compromise a majority of the um sinus for the multi Bridge so basically that that will make it like at least uh you know uh an order of magnitude more difficult to kind of break it and we're also working with other ZK light line

Bridge teams so basically that um in the future we will have two or three independent implementations of ZK lightline Bridges and basically there will be an and Rule so basically if these agree payout happens if these don't agree nothing happens um and basically in that way you can reduce um your exposure significantly well enormously because not only you don't have to find just one vulnerability in one Bridge you actually have to find vulnerabilities in three different implementations of CK client Bridges obviously that could happen if there's like if you have like ZK uh like like one of those bugs where there's a you

know bug in a paper for instance like what happened with zcash at the time but it becomes a lot less likely um that everything kind of has the same uh Breaking Point uh so no I think I think it's very responsible I think it's a good approach like to add Security in depth I'm a very big fan of security in depth in general so for example um you know sometimes even people don't like things like sgx right but I think I don't like sgx yeah it's a black box it's really difficult to trust but if you add it as an other yeah exactly like if you it as another component as Security in depth it is something that might add security so here if you do

like at a multi bridge and you know maybe maybe it's easy to bribe all of them you know there are some rich people that can bribe all of these signers but it adds uh some measure of security so it is nice and I think that's a very responsible way to approach it so but yeah like if we're talking about like auditing the circuits themselves I think it's still a pretty hard task um I I remember like um I I was doing some audits like when when I was uh and get it we also like audited sapling uh like the zash upgrade before it came out and it seems to me that still the most successful or the most elaborate audits

happen when people do manual reviews and they see a specification in front of them and they vet the specification first and then they see that the code matches the specification and so on and I think the zikes team has been spectacular in writing good specifications and that that was something that in my opinion makes them system like I'm I'm have a high confidence in their system because of that um but today we still do a lot of manual audits there are some companies that try to

improve on that like there has been work by the castal people that now are part of Alo I think that they've done some formal verification yeah exactly and verise is also doing developing a bunch of tooling around that but still not yet widely used um but what one of the things that I think contribute more practically to security and still don't happen as much as I would like is the creation of common components that you can reuse and that get

audited and then get deployed and have a bunch of stake in them in some sense because they're deployed in high stakes places and that increases the confidence in the components themselves and then if you use this as a major part in your application you can just piggy back on it yeah exactly and I think we we've done some of this when we were developing semaphor so we audited these components and some other people were using them um and I would like to see that more now in the new Realms of ZK where we use blon and other kinds of systems

it's harder there because you also have a lot of flexibility you can customize it a lot but if we find as a community a plun construction that we can line on maybe we can start developing these components that people could reuse and that that makes big difference yeah yeah I like that yeah I think for that also um having uh some C some sort of uh you know uh benchmarking tool which tells you um how much certain components have been used and what the amount writing on

them has been I think that would be S super useful that would be nice yeah yeah there's a last point right yes but it's zkl and I don't know anything really about that to say what what what is zkl oh so that that's an interesting topic I think it's become it has become from zero to 100 popular in some sense in like the last month maybe maybe yeah month or two something like that but uh it's it's a topic that become very popular so zkl in general is proving that you evaluated uh a model that you got the results from

evaluating um machine learning model or neural network and proving that you did it correctly with the right model uh with signed inputs or so on and in that way you can run this in different environments not necessarily the environment that consumes the result but enjoy like be confident that you got the correct result so one one example would be for um like face liveness detection where you would see if someone has um like you can use this for kyc or things of that

sort um but you have other use cases you can think about let's say gpt3 today or CAD GPT where you you want to know that you're getting the results from the right model that was at least claimed to have been trained uh on some specific or some set of inputs and you will then be sure that it you get a result from that model and not something that someone else invented that didn't include all the history of some region in the world let's say so we recently had Jensen on um are you familiar with them Jensen Jensen G NS y

n it was episode 4 471 uh basically it's about deep learning compute and kind of uh Distributing basically making that distributed and basically there you also have this checkpointing problem that basically you have to people have to prove that they actually did run your your your the data through some sort of model and basically how involved that was and yeah we also talked um a bit about how difficult that actually is to prove because it's not deterministic so it's uh yeah yeah one other angle on this so like I have not done a deep dive so I only like really all I've understood though is there's like two

ways of thinking about it one is the way that Kobe just described of like attesting to the the model but I have heard it also describe like I've just I've heard the idea of doing kind of like the model making building the model on encrypted data or like and so it's not so much ZK I think people kind of don't think hom encryption exactly it's probably going to be like FH or H somehow um but yeah just an like the topic of ZK also it's it's often like super mixed up with all the other Advanced cryptography like MPC and FHA which is great I think they should be more yeah yeah I mean sometimes you're actually mixing them and sometimes just

like in people's minds they're like very complicated cryptography over there um maths there there does seem to be some really cool overlap between the ml AI worlds and ZK now which is cool I'm excited for the new year to like meet some of these people building this stuff yeah some really good people working on this on on zml so I'm I'm excited to see where it goes cool so it seems like um while like for the last three years or so most of the progress has kind of H on the succinctness property um of CK uh proofs it seems like it now um Ventures more

into like the Privacy preserving realm that obviously it can also offer would you agree oh I see Anna kind of her head I think there's been those two I think the blockchain the wanting to scale The blockchain Accelerated the succinctness for sure and like that idea of using it as validity instead of privacy I think those ideas were really awesome and they were like super easily kind of understood and then used but I do think like as what what I've what has happened is like ZK connecting to blockchain accelerated ZK development so much that now the the ZK libraries are quite good and they're getting better they start to

be able to be used even outside of blockchain and often in those cases it is privacy that's the main part so yeah can you give examples well I did I gave this one example that I don't know that much about like the video thing Google oh the the video one but like Google and gdpr I mean there was years ago Cloud flare used it in a non-blockchain context I've I mean we've talked to people who did like password protection barely touching the blockchain but I think what I've understood is all the major um like tech companies web 2 companies have teams building ZK stuff outside of the blockchain context I think Apple probably is doing something but

obviously like I don't know um because they don't tell you stuff but um true private very private uh yeah I don't know I think yeah I think we're gonna see a lot of non-blockchain ZK use cases that use privacy in the in the near future I I think like in in some sense that these non-blockchain use cases we see a lot of let's say very specific constructions for like a very optimized protocol for concrete use case like you said in Cloud flare and and what others do and maybe sometimes people don't bundle them with ZK because we're used to snarks which are general purpose but

definitely a lot of advanced and super interesting cryptography happen all around um but uh yeah but actually about privacy I think if we if we look at it we actually see would see that the first deployments of ZK in blockchain was about privacy right like scalability came later in that is true I mean yeah oh I just remembered a use case we forgot to mention by the way and one that's hyper relevant today it is onchain mostly but it's proof of reserves and ZK oh yeah this is and it's actually I would call it a it's a it's both it's ATT testation but often the reason you're using ZK is also

for privacy so like so that you're not like just overtly showing everybody's bank or crypto accounts you actually can retain some privacy yeah that's kind of a good hybrid example it is a good use case no so what are you guys excited about for 2023 I well I'm going to zkl is the place I want to explore it's already been declared cled on the last show we did of the year that tun is like I predict that there will be more zkl guests so yeah I think we're gonna we're gonna start bringing on some more folks like that I think that's true I think that's one very interesting topic um I'm I'm like you want to go

more go Ahad go for it okay so um I'm generally excited to see um the development or the let's say m like the tooling around ZK and just Advanced cryptography mature like one analogy that they had in my mind is that you know when you start out with electronics you just connect like an LED with a battery and then you have like it turn on it's very nice that's kind of where we were with the tooling like a year ago in ZK so now we're at the part of like maybe something that is more to an Arduino

which is still quite crude and then you put it on a on um on this board where you put the wires but it's still quite messy so you have these components that you can connect but I think we're getting to a stage where it become something that feels very real and you can design extremely complex things that interact with each other and you have efficient components that you you can connect like transistors like this is kind of an analogy that I have in my mind so I'm excited to see this kind of tooling develop and people M mixing and matching these kind of

things but generally also seeing other kinds of cryptography intermixing with those so we've seen some of that also from Den bones Group by the way like this collaborative snarks approach where you combine MPC with snarks like use proving ZK the correct execution of a multiparty computation um so I would love to see more of that happening and I think it can unlock a bunch of interesting use cases yeah I think it's the use cases like this past year like I mean a lot of what we mentioned today are actually newer to us too like they've come up in

the last year not all of them but a number of those I I remember years ago having a really like kind of having just such a few number of use cases like trying to pick like oh yeah and you can do payments kind of um you can scale but yeah this time around it's like there's a real there's a real list and I think it's going to keep growing yeah I think I think uh yeah exactly and I think more more let's say Engineers that do not specialize in cryptography would be able to access these Technologies which which is not quite true today so I I hope that will happen and that will spark more ideas and more use cases

2023 what about fears for 2023 what is something that we absolutely must get right it's funny my fear for 2021 had come true actually which was like a large scale ZK project gets tied to International crime and it did um I think I mean we didn't talk much about tornado but I think it was a reckoning for the ZK space and it's pushed some teams towards compliance and some away uh I think fears are that that people use ZK for nefarious purposes that are worse than tornado I don't know that's what I would not want yeah I

actually would would say that what we must get right is how to how to get people to use privacy in a way that doesn't hurt them because I think a lot of people today use privacy and like like they use tools in general and maybe they don't think about the implications so yeah but there technological ways in which kind of this could be addressed right so for instance um for tornado there was the idea that you can have curated list of addresses you don't want to be mixed with and then you can prove that you weren't mixed with these addresses and so on then it can just be like an ad blocker where basically you

you subscribe to some service that kind of tells you who to who not to play with and uh so I think there's actually technological solutions for lots of things but what what I'm worried about sorry I'm hijacking my own question here what I'm worried about is um that private um as a concept somehow gets discredited that it kind of goes down the drain because um people tired to um nefarious purposes or basically where it's been used in a various ways where I would kind of posit um and it's it's a

value right basically it's kind of like something that that kind of um you have to you subscribe to or you don't but but um I do believe that privacy should be a human right and I think kind of the erosion of that how do you feel about that well I just I was about to I think actually tornado in a way and like a lot of things this year if anything right this at this moment I actually think there's a renewed interest in having privacy I actually think the last few years there's been more of like a less aair oh well I actually I I think I feel more of like a realization that it's not just like a

fun nice to have but more of a pillar if you really want the world you want and I think I I don't know I felt that at least the the tone of discourse has actually shifted in that way so I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that in the new year it actually continues to be relevant if not more relevant but we may go through another phase where we don't care that would that's totally possible I mean I mean I think there are also like levels of privacy that have not been properly explored yet like I I want privacy from let's say I don't want this random person to see what I'm doing for example in my bank account today but I'm okay with I don't know the bank seeing

this or some other entities seeing it so this is a level of privacy that like like it's not all or nothing like it doesn't have to control yeah yeah permissions or who you reveal it to or like you want privacy from the public definitely I think this is definitely something that I would like to see but there are levels to this I also I do think that the builders you know they've made decisions but I think another decision that's been made is to use exactly what you described Frederica these like new um architectures or like techniques to actually avoid the bad behavior but still have these systems

for good actors I I think they're think I think a lot of teams are thinking more about that there had been this attitude of like oh well we decentralize then we're not in trouble or we add a viewing key and then we're not in trouble but actually like the effectiveness of these are questionable I think like there are some new techniques that haven't been explored haven't been used and maybe there'll be more and I think people thinking about those techniques is really important because I think we want like you said Kobe I think we want a place where we can act privately but we also don't want just Bad actors to come in and re like use those those tools in ways that just like hurt Society yeah I think this these are

really good last words Anna are you happy with these as last words sure for the year your last well my last year words for the year let's say cool thank you both for coming on um I learned a lot um I am so confused so so am I oh oh yeah I I think I think I would love some benchmarking you know just like some tables that tell you this is good at that this is performance for this this solution for this kind of uh set of problems to me that would be um Shining a light where it needs to be

shown so it's uh yeah but I think the things have to come live they have to happen before and then we have to see and then like I thinkes yeah there might be a best best team wins or there might be this really interesting multi- L2 scenario with with awesome ZK Bridges to l1s and they're all like they have their Niche and their use cases that like fit for exactly their architecture yeah it's going to be exciting to see how it come how it goes thank you both for coming on thank you for giving us so much of your time and um I wish you a super happy holiday season and uh get into the new year very safy yeah you too for having us on

thanks frera thank you