Amin B. , H. Fudge, C. Howe, C. Rix, K. Gogol, M. Woodgate, N. Alioth - DeFi Roundtable

Transcript

what up nerds can you hear me properly yeah I think so cool thanks for joining today I'm just going to do a short opener intro we got a great panel here dents experts people in the space hacking maving people out of their yeah whatever and uh yeah I just wanted to say a few words maybe about Swiss so guys if you haven't heard if you're building something hacking on something researching something in defi that's interesting or relevant check it out Swiss we are in Zurich we're Builders we're hackers we're building on protocols we are hacking on hackathons right now just have to jump right back to get back to that stuff as well and yeah we do educational stuff workshops

events so join us talk to us we are here a few of us are and yeah thanks for joining the panel Henry you want to take it lovely thank you very much Armen welcome to the defi round table here today with some of my good guests and some of my favorite people in the world of defi in Switzerland uh welcoming to the stage we've got Magnus from TX 91 Connor from Enzo we have then Dr Kristoff Dr Chris himself from the ush blockchain center Nicholas alot who is a a bias favorite of mine my co-founder for 512m and Colin as well from Clear star Capital down in ficon so welcome to the panel everyone I just wanted to kick off with our first set of questions here and a brief introduction from all the panelists if

we can start with Magnus that'd be great sure so I'm Magnus Woodgate from TX 91 uh self created Prop Shop we're big in the me def5 space yeah algo Traders ready hi I'm Conor the co-founder of Eno Eno is a defi aggregation layer so if you're wanting to embed defi actions ranging from lending borrowing swapping LPS and vaults you can simply just use our API and we're solvers of intents as well hi my name is Chris gool I'm actually still a PhD candidate here at University of t I'm researching um blockchain disas finance and recently also uh rollups I'm also Tech

entrepreneur and one of the co-founders of D am community in Switzerland hello everyone uh I'm Nicholas uh as Henry said co-founder of 512m we're a web3 research and advisory uh company that specializes in things like toomics and decentralized finance so we've been in the space for quite a long time and and we're both coming also from a more traditional Finance approach to kind of try and bridge the gap that's getting smaller and smaller between both of these worlds I'm Colin and we run mostly Market neutral yield strategies but open to all kinds of other uh quantitative approaches to run in crypto doesn't have

to be defi my background is in centralized Exchange Market making and also a lot of experience in sort of the tread fi world of fund structuring um both for IL liquid and liquid Vehicles so yeah quite Broad in that sense Henry up to you perfect thank you very much uh now just to jump in and start very quickly and aggressively uh we've all seen the world of defy the developments that have been moving forward from basic amm on constant product all the way into concentrated liquidity and now we're seeing some incredible uh developments in the world of dark pools and requests for order flow my first question to start off the panel is what do we think about uh the world of dark pools and how do you think it's going to impact the liquidity and price Discovery mechanisms in the world of defi I've got a started off with Magnus

our favorite man in the world of dark pools um yeah I think we spoke about this before but basically the the world of dark pools and defi isn't really there yet um please feel free to interrupt me but the only dark pool I'm aware of right now would be the Kraken CI dark pool on crypto um although yeah I mean because at the end of the day the everywhere else in defi you're going to be able to see the kind of liquidity essentially we're talking about the solvers being a kind of dark pool because you don't know what liquidity they have until you actually execute the trade um but yeah I mean I think there's interesting developments like uh a panther protocol I think they're called doing zero knowledge proofs

to verify that you know there are there is liquidity for you to execute that trade without you actually knowing the liquidity but I don't think uh there anything else there just yet uh I think maybe over the next couple years it might become a bigger space I mean it's quite big in trfi so exactly I'm just wondering where we're going to start to see these kind of parallels that we have in the world of traditional finance and whether we're going to start to see some of the Dynamics that we see in traditional markets maybe in the world of rfqs and how it's developing Colin have you got any interesting alfit in the world of the RFQ space for defi I think rfqs can definitely uh take a lot of market share away from amm which turn out to be not very efficient even with concentrated liquidity it's just not a

suitable mechanism for Price Discovery um for I guess for executing swaps it's kind of all right if you don't get methed too much but I think rfqs can definitely offer a both better price for the users while also offering sort of a mechanism to to bring the price Discovery from the centralized exchanges to the decentralized world more efficiently than amm because with amm it only works through executing swaps that update the price so I think yeah RFQ is definitely something that's that could get a lot of traction and growth over the the next uh yeah couple of months or sort of for the next part of the cycle as well um yeah as more and more LPS on amm probably realize that they're just bleeding money I haven't met any LP strategies for volatile pairs that is

really profitable so there's a few people that claim they solved it but I don't I don't think there are but yeah yeah I think uh rfqs are quite common nowadays even within like intent protocols like Unis swap x uh people assume it's like a decentralized solver set but it's not the first 90 95% of all orders go to private market makers and the question we should really ask ourselves is do the users care where the the funds of on the the other side come from and answer is not really they just want to get the best executional price so you can see this um let's say solver model and cow swap one is Fusion Unis swap X and so forth a lot of the order flow is still going through rfqs now the

topic of decentralization also comes up in this okay if these are centralized market makers it's not fully decentralized but you'll still have the amm you'll still have the D5 protocols for more Niche tokens like meme coins RFQ providers will never really do RFQ quotes on them yes I mean I agree with you guys actually the more options Traders are having it means simply the lower fees they are having but also with the dark pools and also liquidity of chain actually uh Traders not know whether uh the price is the best possible price they are receiving and here we really need a zero knowledge to make sure that uh simply nobody's being cheated by any

algorithm or some uh code which is running outside of the uh outside of the blockchain I mean it also so there are some cases when the same protocol of the same component running a solver and for example order book then I mean in such situation how do you know whether at the price you're are getting is really the best execution price I mean it's cheap but is it really as cheap as it could be and here zero knowledge is perfect I don't know I think that's by protocols like C swap when inst Fusion they exist right so you're not trusting one party you're trusting a network of 20 25 different solvers so kind if that problem to some degree is being solved if you go like exclusive orderflow sure mamas Aggregates different route

providers but do they really in the background that's the another topic but you know these networks like house they they do exactly this I think this is an interesting set of developments here I think for the world of traditional Finance we're seeing now this increasing professionalization as we see now with solver int new rfqs in the space and the possibility of Future Dark pools coming out but the question I always have then is with this massive increase in complexity in the world of defi do you think we're slowly moving slightly away from the mission of defi or its purported Mission which is financial inclusion and equality effectively of participation for everyone do you think this complexity might be leaving a few people behind also or um I think yes and no because as

complexity increases the amount of Sol solutions that reduces that complexity again also exists for example um let's just take concentrated liquidity as an example um back in 21 if you wanted to create a meme uh a meme coin pair on uniso B2 very easy now you have to worry about ranges and stuff like that but um with that increased complexity we've also seen the rise of protocols that actually address this like for example on Solon we've got Camino Finance which makes providing liquidity to a concentrated uh liquidity amm very very easy so I think as the complexity increases we will also see a rise of other protocols that actually reduce

that complexity for people who want to participate but I also think that when you look at the majority of the volume in defi uh especially when you're looking at smaller Pairs and more volatile pairs it's not actually coming from liquidity provision which is the more complex part it's coming actually from the trade side and here again if we use uh rfqs if you use any front end or aggregator at the end of the day the retail user only cares that I can click a button I know I'm getting hopefully the best price and it's easy to use I mean yeah I would argue that it's never been that friendly um the f I I can't remember which talk I went to

someone said about uh you know people managing their own private keys and then asking the audience how many people actually use Linux thems and manage it themselves it's kind of the same thing like that's why you get all these custody Solutions and all kinds of stuff like that and I don't think I think the complexity is growing sure um but I mean like Nick said along with that you get some great Solutions like the solver stuff we didn't even mention that it's gasless right for users so now they're not paying gas anymore um on their swaps um yeah I think it's uh but I mean how many people who traded a original unisoft V2 actually knew how constant product worked when you executed it that's a fair point Fair Point actually there were some studies that most of the people uh R investors they do not know

what imper uh losses and 80% of those early y Farmers actually lost money by doing yield farming I think that already defi is far too complex for the ret investors it's like when you go to some e farming website um which is not trusted and you see uh 60% uh return then okay when uh the crypto is going up then yeah you will see more money but the real is you could make uh more money doing something else and I think that increased complexity is actually a very good thing for you guys because you are professional a crypto asset managers and I think that the retail investors yeah shouldn't do it by themselves they

should go for their professionals I agree with you it was never go ahead like the promise of amm was also everyone can be a market maker somehow but of course that doesn't mean they can be profitable and with the solvers you have a lot higher barriers to entry so you need to be fairly sophisticated and basically need to be a professional actor to execute that um and there's of course no solver that offers that that yield or the return back to the retail crowd so they can maybe execute at very favorable SWA prices but they don't get any of the return that's basically creating that market so they cannot participate in a sense no a little closer I think it's just anyway you heard me I agree with you it was never easy and I think with these more intent

networks are being spawned up it abstracts all of the logic away for the user you know like if a user wants to go into beefy pill that beefy pill may need like an Aur pool that requires a balance pool that requires three or four different tokens right now with these intent networks you can just submit and say hey I have a and I want b c and d and then all of that logic for how to interact with it is abstracted away so I think over time it will actually get more simplified because we're a little bit deep into it but if we abstract it way for all these different retail users and then these retail users the wallets that are on are then using intent networks underneath I think we could see more adoption into defi whether going to four or five different interfaces just a comment on that I mean

the when cop was developed the kind of the batch auction coincident of once in intent style stuff kind of came from tradire right from the SEC 615 or whatever and uh I think that the whole intention of that development in regulation was to provide Clarity to you know normal tradire users when they're executing options trades who actually fills them and where does the order flow actually go and I think I I don't really know like CU I would just say that tradire in that regard is more mature right because they've had been doing it for longer and they they did these things to make it clearer as to where the trade goes but then I guess like we're having the same thing in defi we've just copied it right us you obviously read the article

from flash Bots about orderflow yeah rule I mean it's like anyone can look up the order flow but is someone who a retail user going to understand what they're looking at but they don't need to understand order flow the user only has an intention to go from a b and c d all that other magic underneath is gone so it's just user explicit and their their intent it's not that they want to know the order FL they just want to get from point A to point B and that's it sure I mean it goes back to the point of like was defi like you know beginner friendly to begin with right so it makes it easier yeah here I mean I agree with you if we should distinguish between making user interface and ux

actually easier which is happening currently in defi versus the complexity of the underlying things which is getting far more and more a complex and it's not only a complex to understand but also you simply need to be fulltime to in that business to understand what's going on well as usual everything to get slightly more complex but for of course the institutional ement it's quite nice for us to be able to justify our own positions obviously which is quite good of course but with some of these increasing complexities as well I think Colin just brought up a second ago in the world of order flow also about any developments that may be coming in the world of payment for order flow in the space of defi exchanges also just seeing if anyone's actually seen any new

developments in that space or how they see it moving towards I mean I went to an interesting talk from the guys from valantis I'm not sure if you know yeah uh they launch launching this not chilling anything they're launching a new protocol for solvers but the idea that was unique was that um you as a solver you get rewarded for providing up-to-date price data so that if you're you know for example like Unis V2 or V3 if the price was wrong compared to binance um someone a sophisticated Market maker or solver would be able to identify that and they're going to get rewarded by updating the price on on the The Exchange the user and the yeah the everyone around it basically there's more information being given to the

users of the platform which is coming incentivizing institutions to it's kind of well the great thing about blockchain right the whole point is you incentivize everyone so it works out best for everyone so I think that's a really good example of that um so it's like you're being paid for your order flow which is also helping retail uh in that in that sense yeah coming back full circle exactly uh anyone else have a comment in the world of payment for order flow or is it just a Magus over here in the world scaling I think it's also a question of how much of that is routed back to the users because there's a lot of wallets that sell their order flow like if you execute a swap from metamask I'm not sure where it ends up but you can find it out it's I think

it's also in the flash Bots article that Magnus quoted before um but yeah and a lot of that money that they receive from selling the order flow that stays with the wallet provider and not doesn't go back to the user to give them a better price or anything so that's also I guess question of how aligned are the incentives in that that's a fair comment I suppose but then incentives in this space are always quite nice on two sides it depends we always talk about the curve incentives anyway but uh I was just wondering then of course what's the potential implications here when we're looking at the world of payment for order flow about the users privacy and transaction security there also does anyone have a comment for I can jump in because here I think we should also distinguish between different types of the uh Traders I mean

if you are swapping uh tokens for $10 it's very different when you're are swapping them for 10,000 or or 1 million M and gen generally statistically of course those bigger trades are typically being under attack when you are just like a small retail investors yeah you are unfortunately too too small fish that yeah they would bother um I tend to agree but uh I would also say that even currently um for the big players and anity is not really that much of an option anymore I mean if you have unless you go through tornado cash and found a new wallet most people when they see a wallet with over 5 million it

they have an idea who it is I mean we have multiple tool like Arkham intelligence or chain analysis stuff like that where you can then also look at all the trades that they're doing also track what uh they're about to do and kind of like know what they're up to right because since blockchain is transparent to everybody you can see what everybody is doing and there are hundreds if not thousands of tool out there to track certain wallets track activity of certain players um which is also I think the beauty of uh blockchain technology I think the question on privacy is does the user really care um if you're going to give them 10% extra

on their trade are they going to choose to lose money just to be private my assumption would be no um so that's on the user side on the second side on the solver you know you've got solvers on this table and they're public they're saying that they are solvers and there's a lot of reputational damage if you are maliciously uh front running sandwiching back running all these user flows that you're getting to you and I I don't think solvers are going to be that private you know this solvers are the new Mev we see the men pool before it even hits the manool and if we abuse that then we won't be able to fulfill any orders on any other networks yeah I guess it's just the same thing

it's like for validators right I mean there was a re interesting take I saw which was about M and you know opportunity cost of uh maliciously reordering transactions to see if you built that block would the cost of the slashing justify it you know um and you know it's but it's just like the principal agent problem and how defi goes to try and solve that you know with it with well the layer ones and and the validated model and the block Builders and now the intents basically I think the there's probably some more developments that we don't even realize that are going to happen yet there well as you mentioned there exactly with the principal agent problem I think we're going to jump straight into the next uh topic here which is of course we talked about already uh the incentives and the alignment of incentives in the world of

Defi and of course apart from farming incentives often these incentives often go wrong and the idea is here of course bringing it back to institutions do we think that the world of Institutions coming into defi might contribute something to more uh robust or strong governance models and incentive models for the world of defi um I think so yes because um when you're looking at governance I think generally not even in defi but in blockchain in general um at the moment and I still think is going to be a problem moving forward is very often you have less than five players uh holding over 50% of the supply so any proposal

that goes through does get accepted instantly um however I do think that even if a large portion of these powerful holders are an institution are uh a group of people it does bring a bit more robustness than if you had let's say sefue holding 20% of your governance token and then he just decides to crash your entire protocol I think it's it brings up a good point that I I don't think that bringing institutions in necessarily brings robustness at least the traditional tradire institutions I think it leads to a lot of centralization I mean now that you have unop V4 with kyc pools I mean come on like um and other things like uh like Athena you know uh

centralizing that there um and and you require you need kyc to use Athena right now uh it just adds well a lot of layers of kyc and you know the robust because uh I feel like the robustness comes from in AA trafi worldview the robustness comes from centralized authorities right because if you are centralized you have control if something goes wrong um but yeah and and that's the way it's always been and and you see like a lot of these institutions coming in like even with solvers it centralizes the order flow to the best solvers right so yeah I think I think what institutions are also bring as a little more pragmatic approach to defi because uh especially um early uh let's say adopters uh of crypto they

were very they were driven by the ideology and also by the message by the m mission of different uh protocols and that that Community uh was very important whereas when you have the especially financial institutions they just look at the returns and they are also doing their own math so that they don't uh believe into what those Protocols are claiming they recalculate and they simply invest where it really makes sense I think it's also important to differentiate between governance robustness and just general robustness of any protocol um and that's where I think like some institutions might be a bit of a threat because for example one of the one of my favorite pro protocols

is liquid um and try explaining to a big traditional Finance institution to say oh we've got a product and we're just going to release it and throw away every control that we have over the smart contracts most people are going to be like what are you talking about this this is nonsense but that that's also where I think we have be careful when certain actors coming into the space that we don't lose like Kristoff said that that ideology of openness and Trust uh trustless well that's the difficulty I guess when you're talking about uh defi in the world of Institutions and the natural centralization effect of people who are simply executing better in the world of say on the solver side just of

course it goes to the best performer and of course sometimes that does centralize things do really think that the integration of Institutions into def5 will keep defi D is it really going to be decentralized in future do you think it's going to stay like it is right now for the next 5 years I think if um you know these protocols themselves will still be decentralized to a certain degree the other question is are Dows really Dows MH you know if teams can vote on it the foundation can vote it's not really decentralized right and we think Dows are great some degree they are but if we have more centralized parties coming into this and certain teams still still have the multisig to control let's say chain link or other

protocols or Bridges then maybe they could take over this right so we think that was a good but maybe four or five years this is a great entrance for centralized parties to hijack protocols and I think liquid like you were saying is is a wonderful protocol you know I think they're thinking five 6 7 8 9 10 years ahead uh on this attack vector and would say it depends on where you which layer you look at for the central ation because for example could say the ethereum validators are centralized because most of them use the same software right or you could say block Builders there's like plenty of block Builders so you could say it's decentralized but only two or three of them fill almost all the the volume they they process all the blocks um yeah and

I guess it could quickly like it's a unstable balance it could very quickly tilt into the very centralized part where you have maybe enough uh entities involved but literally two of them controlling the market and the other ones are just like one % of the market and two two biggest ones are 99% so I don't know I think it's also important to differentiate between centralization uh where it is centralized and there is the capabilities of decentralization I remember um back when um tornado cash was first p uh put on the ofac sanction list I think like 99% of blocks produced were um censoring transactions coming

from it but at the end of the day it didn't really matter because the 1% still existed meaning sure if I'm putting a transaction through tornado cach I might have to wait a few minutes longer but there is somebody somewhere out there who will actually process my transaction um meaning that even if 90% of things for something is centralized just because you have the capabilities of another actor coming in and being like oh there is a whole untapped market for a certain service I can come in and actually serve that market I do think that this is something that should not be ignored I think it's also important to distinguish between different types of uh

decentralization like uh first of all you might have a smart contracts that are running on the uh blockchain and simply defi Protocols are such smart contracts and this is what uh the World decentralized Finance coming for they have a lot of cool uh properties like know what they can uh um change the history the logic is known to everybody but there is another dimension which is Da and the governments which is um independent from the first one and actually already today 90% of dows are centralized which I would say it's normal in a a free market economy uh because those Dows are typically uh startups which are uh small Enterprises and it's normal that small Enterprises

are simply owned by their Founders and investors source so I think that there is nothing nothing wrong with that it's important that we stay with that decentralization coming from the uh blockchain and also when it comes to uh thread fi and defi uh I think that defi needs thread more than thread F needs defi I mean when you look at the amount of the money at tvl or trading volumes that are in defi today they are extremely small compared to thread F I mean for example a few days ago Unis swap announced that they process two trillions of dollars since their beginning like a few years ago2 trillions dollars I mean in comparison

FX Market in thread fi is processing s trillions daily so the difference in volumes and tvl is really huge and I think it would be good for defi when simply all of that money uh or maybe majority actually move to the blockchain and those protocols um makes a lot of sense I think the size comparison obviously we'd all love to see it go a little bit further up it would help my fees of course which would be very nice but uh that's the thing with the tvl currently still below its all-time highs and as you mentioned the absolute gap between where we are in defi right now and where trfi is especially when you considered the FX Market do we really think that institutions are playing with size in this market already are we star to see

processes from institutions in the world of defi so far I mean I think there's several factors as to why it's not there yet and you see like with the Bitcoin ETF right that brought in loads of inflows and after FTX all of the onramp off ramps basically shut um in Wong go and I mean I they they exist around um but I still think that you know there's this regulatory unclarity almost everywhere and when you're working across different jurisdictions um you're going to see well just the challenges to enter the market and like you say because the volume is so low compared to something that they could be done in Forex why justify spending significant amounts of capital on on entering if if the profit is not there yet which is why it's up to small

businesses and you know smaller teams to to get started like thousand and things like that um and on top of that I had a conversation about this about the the models being different I mean like salana right it attracts loads of trfi Traders just from the fact that it's order books everywhere um and then when you go on to evm Chains It's more amm based stuff or maybe there's an order book offchain or something like that but like if you take the traditional players who are processing most of the volume the models are significantly different right so there's there's new swap markets coming out all the time in Defi and I mean when's when when are we going to see like a concentrated clam model on on NYC right like yeah I also don't think they will go straight to defi they

will start with CI especially now that you have more and more exchanges working on off exchange custody Solutions where the trefi institution can hold their assets in some bank account and T builds and still trade for example on binance or kren or whatever but they're not going to put money onto a defa protocol as long as they keep getting exploited because why would they take that risk they cannot justify it I would say well AB just not worth it and it's also like if they put 50 million they basically dilute the whole protocol like they cannot put serious size anywhere right now in defi well that's the question really when it comes down to it do we think that risk is also going to be a critical Factor there because of course we've mentioned earlier in the chat that uh in the world of concentrated

liquidity we don't really see many strategies that consistently can Evol void some of the losses in terms of impermanent losses or other uh do we think that risk is the biggest Factor that's holding them out right now not just say embracing these newer models or getting up to speed with it no I think it's scalability because even if you found that the Holy Grail of um concentrated liquidity lping you cannot really put any money at work because if you if you go in like plus minus 2% range you can put a few million at best and beyond that you just get the extra dollars you put they don't attract extra volume so you just dilute the return that you can make and I yeah I don't think it's very scalable right now because there's not uh enough Demand yet yeah so there's many defu farming funds

within this world right I know a couple already that have stopped farming due to the risk and these are very native Native developers on stable coins maybe you can get 25 30% per year but what you're putting at risk is 50 100 million for you know let's say not not that much capital in Return of losing all of it MH so I think even for native people within this community they're exiting the game already even large protocols like curve you know curve got hacked well hacked had in a mini exploit for some pools and now with this Athena situation of minting potentially $600 million of D how does that impact all

ecosystem so for example Mark Zeller from AI want put the LTV of die down to zero and you know if we start minting more coin then all of Def starts getting affected so risk is just going up and up and up now you you you said basically what I wanted to say perfect well we just wanted to wrap up for the last part just to touch there on a famous name that's going to get some last typ as our last topic for the last minute Athena and the commentary around the world of Athena obviously in the last few months a very brand new uh coin offering rather incredible yields that are either loved or hated in the community

there's those who say that it is the next lunar and there are those who say that it is a darling that generates incredible yields I just want to ask quickly for the last little wrap up what's the thoughts on Athena right now as one of the hottest stable coins out there um so I think that's a general rule and not just for ethena if anywhere on stable coins you can get above 40% yield consistently there is a problem somewhere it's just how it is is and from from our side beside the all the normal attack vectors that you have Smart contract risk and stuff like that we also think that there is a huge regulatory risk because the way it works it's basically a centralized provider one company in Italy that manages your

money to provide yield to you even though that they're not really regulated as an asset manager so we also see huge attack vectors there just from a regulatory side of view ignoring all the big def or even economic attack vectors that you would have MH yeah I mean from a technical perspective I also see quite a lot of risk there I mean I think I don't know unless they've added other centralized exchanges the whole thing goes through binance right I'm pretty sure they use Kraken binance and a few others but it just seems like a fund that someone's wrapped up in a weird tone I think 65% of all the yield comes from binance okay and and the the under docs it says oh this works as long as the funding rate is positive and it just

doesn't say anything else if the funding rate goes negative there 20% of the open interest as well I think on binance is them okay so then yeah I mean you it's just layers of counterparty risk of you know adding binance on and then the per funding rate as well yeah I always love that statement where they say as long as the funding rate is positive it's just like okay great I can have a wonderful suntan as long as the sun is shining it's a difficult statement to make would say it probably doesn't survive the bare Market but Farm it until it dies I mean also with Luna on Luna you could make 20% for a long time and you were still able to exit if you basically just paid attention what was happening on chain you saw the outflows before it collapsed so yeah I think many people do this

trade already mhm I think it's a way that they're positioning it as a stable coin yeah um that's quite impactful for the ecosystem So within 6 weeks of being minted like 15 20 million up to 600 then putting this potentially 600 million into Moro that's only been live for 6 months they've not done one Liquidation on the whole protocol um I don't know if it's going to collapse but there's many factors saying hey maker was very very cautious for five six seven years and now they've transitioned massively within the last couple of weeks and I think this can really really impact the ecosystem but they should just change it

from a stable coin it's not a stable coin make maker is not taking any risk with it though they have made sure that they can basically exit anytime they want and the whole risk stays with epina so I think maker is kind of on the safe side there they basically they farming it as well but with a good approach I think well there we are I think we've been cut off finally at the end but for any more questions on the world of Athena of course you can find us outside I'd just like to thank all the panelists as well for being here and joining us also and uh if anyone has any last questions as well I'm sure we have about 30 seconds worth of questions left yeah first of all a warm Round of Applause to this wonderful talented smart panel with different different

opinions it was you know my key takeaway like it depends so some users might want to know what's behind some users just want to get from A to B right and that was a good also like uh decentralized so for example I'm wearing a dow t-shirt but like you know but questions questions questions just raise your hand we'll find you just shout or you know it's an upper time right you know no please please please you have a question already as well no we'll take it here we'll take it here just shout out oh mags you're going to start us off

let's go exciting someone else is shorting reaking protocols no um I I do think that uh for me one of the most uh interesting things that we've been seeing uh been developing are protocols like uh IP or pendal finance things that take uh any yield generating token splitting them up or uh creating interest rate swaps uh for for me no coming from the traditional side I know that market is absolutely enormous so seeing that level uh coming to defi is also super exciting because uh for us institution allows us to do so much more

wow yes true totally um I think you know there's a lot of innovation coming out with oracles and how that's managed um and the reason I say that is because there's uh yeah like um for example more complex um amm markets are coming out of defi even though they're not necessarily you know blockchain related you can do them on centralized if you wanted to but um you know like the the pmm models with oracles uh you know there's a lot going on there so basically trying to represent more complicated centralized market makers in a decentralized autonomous way and rewarding LPS for that we had by the way very good talks just before this about oracles and and bridging and different approaches to decentralize that so that was definitely discussed today but we have maybe one

more question or two more let me know I mean do you have one when token or if you give me a beer at the app I'll give you the rest of the alpha it's okay so that's your address of the alpha person give Round Round of Applause the guy staying for the Apper as you [Applause] heard picture picture I keep my K-pop headphone on Kpop K-pop wait with the T I think rest guys if there's any back and n gs St in the room please ping us we're hacking on something we need

support thank you or r St