Is AggLayer The Solution To The Modular Fragmentation Problem?

Transcript

would you call yourself a crypto OG I wouldn't say OG what was your first St I was trying to build using a system called colored coins uh I was trying to build what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup welcome to a chain abstraction paloa where we just wrapped up an epic one-day marathon in the heart of New York City diving deep into chain abstraction with some of the top teams in crypto trust me this series is packed with insights laughs and a few surprises you won't want to miss shout out to Omni Network helping to put this together with their upcoming mayet soon targeting the interoperability and ux problem that we're currently facing in the ethereum and majer ecosystem we really enjoyed this series and looking forward putting all this content out there let's jump

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and hope you guys enjoy the rest of this video live in New York City David David Silverman polygon OG crypto would you would you call yourself a crypto OG um I I mean definitely got Bitcoin early and did a bunch of researching early but I I know I wouldn't say OG I don't know I I I I'd first to say that like researched for a while and excited to be a builder in the ecosystem I respect that some people like no I'm an OG like I'm just like what is what is what is what is OG 2015 is it 2013 yeah I'd say yeah 2015 was building my first application so if that gives me the the title I'll take what was your first app uh I was trying to build using a system called colored coins which was on top of

Bitcoin uh I was trying to build yeah I was trying to build like a competitor something called e shares the time which became CA so yeah cool and you're so you are the VP of growth at polygon product VP product yeah VP product polygon uh uh I'm the pretty face that says what the devs are working on uh and uh yeah excited to I great team I get to work with and uh building awesome stuff cool uh all right we have a ton of well not a ton of product questions but like over time polygon has had like a fat how long have you been at polygon now polygon about 2 years but I've been building their ecosystem for pretty long time okay cool so they have like evolved the product over time originally it was like the proof of stake chain and then uh

some deep development on the ZK evm and now uh a lot of it is focused on the agay tell us about like what that Journey has been like and is agay polygon's like final form or is it uh is there stuff that's going to be built on top of it I'm curious to hear how you all are thinking about so so people ask a lot of like you know when I say what I do I say we're we we're polygon we're we're an ethereum scaling Solutions company uh is ultimately I think always been the desire of polygon is say you know there's some places that are for whales well defined that was always main net and then you had polygon and you looked at like who was using polygon in the early days it was people using apps like a curve Sushi Unis swap with

tremendously small amounts it was for the everyday person uh I know that's what attracted me to building on it because it was at a time when there was a question of could the evm scale polygon POS didn't necessarily scale the evm it just made it really cheap um and it was a question of you know are PE is is the masses going to move to up and coming chains like salon at the time or are we going to stay in the evm and then we had you know polygon BSC AAC C chain and more kind of show that nope the evm actually has achieved kind of this this area of dominance and then polygon realized from running this type of chain um there is a a limit to what you can do uh on a POS chain first off we want higher security so we went all in on ZK

uh to build the ZK evm but more than that it was the question of interoperability uh one of the the things I think doesn't get really appreciated a lot about polygon I think lot of the times you know it's like oh the infrastructure there is hard compared to some of the newer l2s oh things are a bit slower to load well part of it is because the state size just the pure actual amount of data on the polygon blockchain is massive in comparison uh to a lot of these other l2s in fact if you take I know the stat was was as of at least April since Genesis what has been happening on op on uh arbitrum 1 and on base and you summed it all up together it was less transactions would have been done in the last year on polygon Alone um and that

has been going historically and so there's just a massive amount of data the size of that node is getting to a point that we realize you can't actually run a single chain the way this is going to work is a a network of app chains and the ability to Shard and and scale out as needed right like we do in the cloud today right we're no longer running main frames we're running these General servers that we can spin up spin down but as a user you don't need to know what you're touching and apps can scale and scale down as well and so that's really what prompted the the AG layer was let's build a really good base chain package cdk but we're not it's not AG is not just for cdk it's just one of many that we'll support um and the idea is

let's build Tech that allows you to actually interoperate across a group of chains um and and that's kind of the vision is polygon's always been purely about scaling scaling and let's make the best individual chains that we are part of those ecosystems POS and zkm as well as let's just try to scale more broadly by building the tooling that either the ethereum community needs whether it's something like planky 3 or planky 2 which Powers most of the other ZK team and other up and cominging ZK things like sp1 it's built on uh plony 3 at polygon Tech um and and on the core level and also at this kind of higher level like let's build the AG let's build things that allow for True interoperability not just locking down to an ecosystem like the approach we're seeing from other teams like ZK synchr yeah all right well okay can I get spicy

yeah same let's get spicy I disagree with your final point there on like uh true interoperability across ecosystems compared to something like super chain I believe is what you said there yeah is it okay help me uh understand uh the difference there between like what is true interoperability does it interoperate with like an OP main net like my understanding is no oh so we know we we yeah agir in its current state no just to be clear AG in its current state um and it's been it's been an evolution from the Genesis when we launched zkm that bridge was a shared Bridge uh in fact if you looked on it ethereum was network ID zero already had two chains and polygon zkm was chain one and we pre-reserved Out The Chain ID for

uh for POS as well and we added uh AAR Z KVM we added X layer and I think we're on like 13 different chains that are connected to that shared Bridge from day one I think we knew that we didn't want to build purely like uh these isolated instances I think you look at like the op strategy Every Chain has its own isolated Bridge that's going to be really hard to change to later if you want to do I don't disagree with true operability and I think second is kind of the approach we're taking is agair started off as this in this this contract program that was really tightly tied to rzk imprs and I think as we we we've said before and especially I know we we said a lot over it at uh e Denver and later now ECC weird fully intending to support any VM any consensus with a

very strong base layer guaranteed powered by the pessimistic proof where it's more in line I would say with the concept of scaling that we're seeing from teams like I'd say hyperlane is really great example where it can be deployed everywhere I'd say unlike hyperlane there is an actual base guarantee provided by ZK that says you can't actually rug other chains what agar is a protocol from chains to chains to allow them to be confident that they can't be rugged by some by another untrusted operator cool so I agree that uh having a shared Bridge contract out the gate immensely helpful from a from a raw technical perspective but uh how should people think about super chain compared to uh hyper chain is that CK elastic elastic elastic chain and uh AG

because to me uh it still necessites at various rollups opt into this like shared Bridge contract and that's when you get a lot of these nice properties right but so to me there's kind of like a few of these big clusters that are springing up uh that might not interoperate with one another as well as they will inter totally so I'll actually be even more clear and say that AG layer is going to support any any of these Stacks we do not require the usage of cdk at all whatsoever now cdk is going to be the best way to connect uh obviously same development team and obviously I think it's our opinion we're going to build cdk to be the best up stack that's our goal uh you know candidly I think we're a little flat footed out of the gate um we've learned a lot from those mistakes the same way

that op had Bedrock after their first initial release and realized hey you know writing these L2 VMS is hard uh I give a lot of props to the ZK sync team to the scroll team to the arbitrum team that have just had really Stellar releases out the gate software is hard and I think you know Dev to Dev we all appreciate the work everyone's doing in ecosystem I would say our approach to scaling is actually you can take out glare and this is going to be later this year um there's it's it's public on on on GitHub we're building this Mode called evm Sovereign that you can take the contracts they exist today deploy them to any evm chain and they will link in with the pessimistic proof to the agare and so you don't actually need to opt into a chain level so long as

there's someone willing to operate the agare infrastructure chains can join permissioned or not right at the end of the day agare will be permissionless opt in um and even permissionless to leave there's nothing that polygon will be able to do uh to stop because again agair I want to be clear especially how we branded it it's not polygon we be fortunate to be collaborating with a ton of other teams uh espresso has been really great to work with the team over at Gateway some of the core developers of Aragon have been great we work closely with the succinct team um there's there's a bunch movement has been contributing to make a move version of agare that can be deployed to any move VM we have uh teams working to build kasm wasum support so our goal is that you know for every major VM there's

a click Deployable package throw it on run the infrastructure whether it's your chain or or uh that you're operating or a chain that you just want to be uh able to interoperate on like that's that's there out the gate yeah I mean credit words it's do one uh you all have pushed the frontier in many ways throughout the years and I respect that a ton uh but two I do see you all collaborating more with other teams in the industry to kind of get to this end State more than some other kind of rollup cluster uh teams um and so yeah I respect I think that is uh actually like an optimal growth strategy uh independent of like The Vibes that come with it yeah um okay cool we can drop the spicy like super Chain versus Ager uh and move on from there how do

you see this this uh vision of Ager coming into these rollup clusters that we've talked about like each of them so far as well as this broad idea of like abstracting away complexities of multi-chain interactions on chain right now yeah I think like the core Focus right now of chain abstraction as we're calling it and as a lot of this series today is kind of going around is around gas and is around multi- chain so how are you seeing Ager kind of play a part into this and also just how are you seeing this develop from your lens on this idea of abstracting way user complexities yeah so I think I I kind of set like agair a bit aside from standard chain abstraction I when we think about chain Abra like cack it's collaborative but I think cake stack is definitely thinking a lot more of like from a bit

more higher level we deal with intense and we deal with I think it's like w a different perspective like it's looking from like the user account level whereas most of the development has been from the chain up and so I think we'll meet in the middle somewhere here at some point and I think that's one of the things is like we know at least inside polygon that like our our expertise is definitely not at that higher level area one of the best collaborations we we enjoy working with is talking to the folks that are building a lot of the me Searcher stuff or building intents uh one of my number one teams I love calling up to just look at our Concepts as fast lanane they run all the muv on top of polygon through uh polygon fast lane they have the new Atlas stuff

they've helped us really think through how is the cake stuff going to work in a concept when you have an AG in a concept when you have a shared sequencing cluster like with an espresso and trying to think about like what we can be doing on our messaging level um I think there's a uh uh Jimmy Jang from Catalyst gave a really great quote during his talk on modular Summit that's like ultimately my cons My Consumer is Searchers and I need to build the best software for Searchers for me like realistically who's going to be sending these these uh agare messages it's going to be apps and it's also going to be you know these Searchers these higher level abstractions and so working with them uh as early as possible is going to help us build the best product out so it is really a meat in the middle um but I

think right now we do have a lot of teams that are just working at that top level or working at that bottom level and not really trying to collaborate yeah um yeah that's interesting I mean that makes me think like and maybe this is too abstract of a question but a few years out from now where do you think you and like the polygon team are going to be at and and in context of the rest of the crypto ecosystem I feel like there's a lot of almost like Paradigm Shift level innovations that are getting close to being like prod ready um yeah I'm curious from a zoom outlands like what you think some of the most important things going be happening at that time zoomed out lens I think that like well it's my hope that one people start to care about security um it has

been cleared the market does not value it right now um and I think that's caused like definitely some of the I would say struggles with some of the ZK teams is right like we were forced to go to market I think earlier than we would have liked to uh by the roll out of certain things like ARB stack and op stack that at the time did did not have proofs or had proofs that were permissioned uh and by immediately throwing out that app chain game right forced a lot the ZK Stacks to go live other than they would have liked you've seen that with elastic change just coming online now right sorry the ZK stack with Kronos with us right cdks we had a big Blitz at first we've scaled back and then we're refin the tech and go out right they've had a couple more

years to solidify their base Stacks But ultimately you know going out without proofs you would hope the market would say we care value security but evidently it hasn't it has been fascinating to see the shift in ethereum culture specifically I feel like before 2020 2021 it was extremist almost on like everything must be insanely decentralized provable like Etc and then really when the first rollup sprung up um it was the complete opposite picture but there was like a strong Cultural Association with ethereum that I think allowed the community to be okay with it but from like an empirical perspective it was a massive shift in how people were thinking I mean from an empirical perspective polygon POS was arguably more secure than many of the rups before they had proper fraud proofs that were

permissionless but saying something like that would be sacriligious in certain eum circles it is crazy how say yeah I got in this argument a lot with some ethereum researchers especially EF that were like oh we can't you can't promote polygon CU we have to promote rollups and I'm like oh the Roll-Ups aren't really rollups yet yeah yeah no they weren't for a long time arguably still fully AR arguably we're still cooking on it yeah yeah yeah it has been fascinating to see [Music] that cartei is your home for app specific role S at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology carty enables applications

that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today Everclear is pioneering the clearing layer the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where evercar comes in ever is

pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with inoperability Partners solvers and other provid ERS in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction future check out Everclear at ever clear.org and welcome back to the of course I think that's part one is the value security and the second one is like I I truly do hope that we work on the Chain abstraction I'm going to give a really hot take I don't think smart wallets are going to fully take off in the way that like everyone fully believes what is a smart wallet to you smart wallets is like these smart contract wallets that everything is going to be done with a contract wallet on chain Etc I think that like first off there's just been so many wallets been created through eoas

that even providing an upgrade path from to move from EA to Smart wallet isn't going to work super well um I know with polygon we were actually ready to put 3074 e 3074 which was the ability for EAS to get this kind of smart contract wallet functionality we're ready to throw it to mainnet I I believe in um in in June uh and we know that there was the impetus to do a new EIP 772 which temporarily does a deployment and we're ready to roll that out as soon as the community is kind of locked down the spec right we don't want to become incompatible with ethereum but for us it's we very much view it as um I'd say I personally view it as like there's just so many eoas out there today that to make this distinction between oh you had a wallet that was issued by this

older standard this newer standard that's a really bad way to go about things that we should just be working on just straight up provide the best experience um and so I'm hoping that a that line blurs via things like 7702 and and other chain abstraction principles uh and I also hope that like developers actually especially if applications of tokens like think and research what is out there what can I do to make my app work with these standards what can I do to make my app work with these newer wallets um we've seen so many apps over the years just not include standards that would have made things so much nicer um over the years I mean things like I think it's like EIP 309 that I know usdc has had since like day one allowed people to sponsor payments no

other token ever integrated that or like a 12 like permit permit isn't even widely used uh for a lot of tokens until relatively recently uh a lot of uis don't work well with smart contract wallets and so it's like you know as many people can say they're working on that top layer of like account abstraction chain abstraction principles until we have like app devs and and and contract devs taking this notion of user Focus design seriously we're not going to move forward as but I think I also think it's closer than you may think in terms of like it like actual products going live on Main net where users can basically take their seed phrase from their eoa plug it into a uh non-custodial uh one account for all chains I mean you just said take a seed phrase and plug it

into I shouldn't know a seed phrase exists and the fact that I'm moving around with a seed phrase is ridiculous super dangerous rid yeah it's ridiculous yeah yeah so that's your point right and like that has been like in the investment circles and force some of these uh chain abstraction kind of top layer that's been like the biggest question is like how are you going to get users to take what they're currently doing and kind of go and do something else and like like the whole that whole conversation is yeah it's going to be tough to kind of get over yeah yeah and this is something we've thought a lot about and like as we've been going deep down the chain abstraction SE it's like okay cool yes there's these various eips like they've been shifting around over time but okay this model might work for everything on

chain but when you like get everything working on chain you have to think about how the front ends are built and how the wallets are actually like connecting to these applications and there's a whole like Tech that problem in itself as well and so yeah it almost makes me wonder if uh if it will be a very gradual process throughout time of old eoas upgrading to these wallets but uh maybe we should just focus on like new applications and new users to onboard like into these into new wallets I mean like say what you want about how the app ended up turning out I thought frte was one of the better onboarding experiences pwa as a whole privy unlocked a massive generally has crushed it and I think that like embedded wallets in that frame are going to be great but privy as I

recall is is still in EA like it's not I don't believe it's a smart contract track wallet I me could and it's also kind of annoying when you move on different apps on privy you if you don't use the same email or figure out how to link the same accounts you end up with different Wallets on different apps on all of them exactly so it's still not like the same experience yeah but to a point I think that's somewhat okay I mean I wish it wasn't that way but ultimately like I'm hoping one day there's a better just sign in with privy button the same way we currently have like sign in with with Gmail Etc like right we have that on web because we have extensions like metamask and we have extensions like that I think with love to see it done at the obviously

like for phones like the OS level would be great if Apple did it one day they won't so the question is who's going to go do that uh but the current pattern we have of jumping out of an app and jumping back in is just not like is is not working right we can't we can't replicate the extension model in in uh in Mobile at least as it currently is so excited to see people who are far better at that than I am solving that problem and on the front end side I agree but I think the issue isn't just like we need to pay down Tech debt I think we need to get like this is going to be a controversial take like very serious competent front-end devs to and and product designers to come into web 3 and and and work on what do these

experiences look like uh because I mean some of the mistakes we see and Designs we see are just actually to the point that I I I get deeply concerned where there'll be Alchemy like API keys and clean text in your code that I could go in and just take because there's an assumption that that's that that's that's the pattern I saw in an example somewhere and I think that you know the bar for what we consider to be a well-designed app in web 3 is is just so substandard compared to where it is elsewhere yeah like Zora incredible application from a design focused team I think is a great example of like the standard we need to see going forward yeah they have a really cool like Tik tokes app on built on zor now where it's fully functional um it looks like it's a

social media app like web 2 like a normal app what's it called you know what it's called I think it's just like Zora I think it's like the Zora app yeah okay yeah it's pretty insane I was shocked I I saw it yesterday for the first time and also denominating like denominating gas or spending actions and Sparks like small units than like .001 e or dollar just like yeah gamifying it and simple things like yeah not gamifying just things that are more human to interact with yeah yeah just signing arbitrary like data payloads like are you sure you want to sign this random numbers like yeah I've authorized using using this application already just let me do things yeah so that's more on like the user facing side which I think is is particularly interesting that you have strong opinions there because obviously you've been using it

you know and you've been in the space a while but like where agair comes in is almost more on like this like blockchain level abstraction right where it's like uh users if the chain exraction stack is collaborative and you know some new user comes in and uses a new wallet one balance particle near gorg there's all these there's all those teams right they pick one of these wallets Zion then they would interact on these chains and somehow the settlement of their transactions on any cross chain interaction or the settlement of their of like their wallets across different chains their state would be settling to Ager so how are you guys thinking about building that those relationships and like that stack from the bottom up more so and like not so much on like the user

level but like when when user clicks button polygon is an an agay is making sure that user is safe and getting what they want so I think the first thing is making clear lines of what AG is going to do and not do both from security model and from like a uh just functionality model so the first thing is to be clear like where our security guarantee begins and ends the pessimistic proof which is what is the security model the that says like chains can't rug each other makes no guarantees of what's happening on a chain uh as we like to say it's like if you've chosen to use a chain uh that better be a secure chain that that's your choice You' you've decided to do that whether as an application person if you're abstracting the chain Choice from a user or as a user if you're cting assets on

that chain so if I'm using like a single sequencer rollup with no proofs and I get rugged agare can't protect you there what agary can protect is to say all right that chain can't infinite mid a bunch of usdc and drain the balances from other chains so right chains can always rug their users in ag chains can't rug other chains I think it's like the clear security guarantee we start at then the second thing is is like all right well where can we where where can we where can we assist we can help and guarantee that like messages um ultimately settle according to what chains say they are going to do so one of the things we basically allow is for chains to add additional Security on top of the pessimistic proof for our ZK chains for example this is our full execution proof so for zkm it has to

show that its balances are consistent right that's the proof of the agir and then it also in order to settle has to show hey this entire State transition was valid following valid evm uh and the block I produced was according to our consensus model proof of efficiency for zkm for something like POS right it's still going to have to show balance we consistent but it's not going to do the full the full uh execution proof it's just going to show yep I have a decentralized proof of consensus I was able to show that the validator signed off on the the block I'm trying to settle on right the validators could be colluding and there could be rug I mean we won't see it on POS it's pretty pretty well battle tested network but the possibility is there um and I think that like making sure that we you know

that that we try to promote to users they're using change they're safer that's why I said I hope the industry starts caring about security matters and making security easier to do again working with teams you know like CCT and and other other teams that are producing these provs to help all the stacks get to ZK security is essential for us um and supporting those Baseline provs is key I I think as for this higher level area collaborating with teams like ccct uh sorry not synct espresso that are building kind of shared sequencers working with the RAS providers that are building their own kind of interoperability methods to say hey agler can be used as a base to build these torts of structures uh so you inherit these guarantees but we're not going to build those we're not going to build those those kind of higher level

shared sequencing networks ourselves welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for frax and fraxel the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the frax ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has

stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including fra Swap and frax lend you can see frax fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the

singularity coalin is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers today in the Moder space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's basically they can go into archive note or often times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coill try to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plug into some of these modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto Celestial or Veil or any of these modu da

Solutions or even ethereum coala is able to provide a longterm data storage and data availability platform for that data after the time period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show I find it quite uh fascinating that these rollup Stacks op stack Etc have have gone from rollup Stacks cdk to full interoperability rollup ecosystems as like the next

Evolution I'm quite curious as to where we go from here um but it seems to be interest it's just I don't know it's just very fascinating it happened quickly as well like all this technical explanation is just like it's crazy it's like it was just cdk now it's like bang you know you know it's yeah it's been in the kitchen for a while now I I really want to say it's like we don't view ourselves as a rollup stack I know some of the or like a rollup Network group clust we don't we don't really view ourselves as a cluster so what is AG then it's an interoperability solution it's an interoperability solution but what's the difference that's that's the real question right what's the difference the difference the difference is for like things like op there's a social Charter on top of it right you

have to give up that sequence or Revenue 15% or whatever 15% which is which is massive correct so opting in the AG I don't have to give you any of my Revenue what Revenue do you make if I opt in yeah okay I want to ask this this is because the uh the product offering has evolved over time and therefore the business model presumably has changed over time or like expanded how are you thinking about that with ag cdk is free open source software yeah uh there's no kind of collective on top you have to opt in uh for ARB like the doubt is known the Nitro like we don't we don't have a Nitro license that you have to give funds to Etc that that's not how we operate we're Arron license optimism sequence or Revenue how are you if you're but that's if you're part of

super chain Network correct so for us for AG it's I think it's a currently today it's just you have to pay for the proofs you're settling in like you have to pay for your proving costs that's currently it um and I want to say currently because right the tech is evolving so fast I think trying to lock into any one business model right now would it's fine if the answer here is because you're also working with succinct who is like uh generating those to lower the proving cost that's just so we're we're yeah we're using sp1 for elements of the of the pessimistic proof right the actual just like taking the plony three proof and and it's it's we're using their infrastructure but the actual like AG itself is agnostic you can plug in I don't know I guess a risk zero or a vitaa or insert whatever

intermediate VM you want sp1 is live today so we're going to use it and uma's just team have been amazing Partners uh and they're building with planky 3 polygon Tech so you know we we know that really well we know how to plug in with that really well but but ultimately I think it's more of these things are so early that I don't want to lock into a given price Model yet and also I think it's the answer is we're going to work with the people in the ecosystem we're putting ideas out there we're working with a large tent of people to figure out the right way to do it I think saying right now that I want cut of Revenue um is super hard for a chain to sign up to let's say I mean major like let's say that like a another exchange wanted to go build a

chain they are not incentivized right now I would say I would argue to join op because Bas is there well why am I paying Revenue that eventually is going to go to retroactive funding that potentially could go to my competitor and also if I could just run op stack myself and plug into other interoperability networks I don't have to pay that massive cost for what is fundamentally open source software that is being subsidized by the ecosystem yeah I I agree I think it like also in the short term even could be like a good growth strategy of just like hey look we'll figure it out let's just like make this happen yeah don't runseek in the beginning get you know get growth get traction yeah and then R seek and then no but like then make money right like you have proven amount of fit then you

got to figure out how to you know ACR value to token holders ACR value to Dow this is this is I mean this is something I tell a lot of D teams themselves the immediate focus is like how you know how do I go and seek you know rent seek or how do I immediately try to do like burn and buy like in the standard startup world there's no reason why any startup should be doing a share buyback or should be doing a dividend like just maximize on growth and I think that like at polygon that has really been our our Focus I mean even look at P well yes we have a559 burn and there's benefits for that from like a g gas price predictability and stability method but like realistically the burn is not ultimately burning significant amounts of madic it's not like the the we we we

could dial up gas fee at this point we have a lot of price we have a lot of customers that are just using polygon and using POS you know the valuers could vote to move up gas price they don't want to the idea is let's continue growing this Market is way too early to be focusing on the vanity metrics of like Revenue return to sharehold ERS I mean these what like polygon's a couple years POS is a couple years you know less than 5 years old the question I want to wrap it up on here is uh I agree with you it is uh everything is extremely immature right now from a technology perspective there's a ton of work to be done the industry is still early even though technically it's starting like 08 09 um when do you think it won't be early I I don't have a great

answer for that I think it's going to be right each part of the stack is going to mature over time evm at this point has matured to a point are a lot of issues with it yes there's a lot of issues with JavaScript yet everyone uses that I would say rollup Stacks I think there's a couple that have come into view that people have started using but they're still wildly immature I think that like wallets and tooling super wildly immature you know it was only how long ago that people were using like like Mist uh and you know metamask came out we've all started using that but now we're moving to things like you know rainbow and more I think that like we're just super early and these things come in waves I mean we look at like how long it takes any Tech to kind of get to a

stable platform I could say 3 5 years but ultimately it's just going to be it will stop looking immature when these nice polished applications are out there that you don't know that under the hood can swap out as Parts get more and more stable I think ZK is just coming around to the point where it's now like stable enough to really use um I know that we're like uh we're about to participate in this big hackathon uh over in San Francisco which is all about like let's make ZK is now ready to go let's make it real uh you know we could take provs and prove all of the theory like at real time for sub 500k a year that means that we can change like POS at like sub 2 million a year that doesn't really drastically affect gas costs so all right now we're in the place where ZK

Roll-Ups improvers can can run at actual like actual size so now we can really start thinking about actual ZK versus where we were two years ago when a lot of these ZK chains were just starting to launch yeah the ZK SP has accelerated rapidly yeah and I had B with Uma and brenon and they were saying that the proving times and costs are going down by a matter X almost every month yeah let alone like four to 5x per quarter which has been super super cool and there's Hardware coming that's going to do several orders of magnitude once that gets figured out great teams like Fabric and more and so you know as much as I can say three four years will be ready I'm just like anyone else I'm just throwing a dart at a board and and saying what what sounds nice last timing

prediction question for your last one year for us sure where's AG at what's the there so agir right now is we have the shared Bridge we got robs attaching into the shared bridge and it's currently cvk only uh uh later this year we're going to release uh evm Sovereign which means that you can then take uh we're first going to release the pessimistic proof so the pessimist proof is coming online uh couple months and that's going to allow for uh that Baseline security so now you're no longer relying on the soundness of our provs um I think as Jordy said on podcast before we talk up the security of these ZK VMS these are really large complicated pieces of software if you think there's if you don't think there's a bug someone selling snake oil we're now protecting against those bugs with a pessimistic proof cuz it's real simple

written in Rust fully audited and using real base proving Tech um where do we go from there then it's going to be evm Sovereign using the pessimistic proof any VM chain that wants to join uh can join it'll still be permission joining so like you'll have to work with the polygon team to get on boarded um and then down the line probably early next year we're going to be adding this thing called authentications which means that you can now add your own Security on top of the pessimistic proofs the same way that we add our execution proof for zkm or our consensus proof from POS you can add any arbitrary um or or any arbitrary uh additional Security on top and so that will allow for you know if you're an optimistic chain and you want to wait for full optimistic finality to protect your AG messages you can do that or you

could spin up uh a symbiotic you know dpos Network do fast finality in your op Network or it could be hey I'm uh I don't know I'm an asset issuer like a stable coin I'll throw Circle just as an example here I'm Circle instead of wanting to do usdc on every chain I actually want to hook up my usdc minor directly to the agay so I can natively issue on all the chains in the network with the same with inheriting the actual security that comes from uh the pessimistic proof right even web 2 systems can now connect in using customized security policies from authenticators that's really like our road map um then there's speed uh we drop currently at about 50 minutes uh for L2 to L2 canonical transactions which is fastest in Industry by a lot we're going to be moving down to sub 15

minutes uh our goals for later this year and with fast interop sometime in the future less than a year we're hoping to go like sub a couple of seconds uh which is like the real kind of ultimate goal is you know depending on what I would say like now we're talking about Ro of clusters like shared sequencer cluster or other like Fast interrupt cluster you're a part of you can get really fast and I'm being kind of vague on those last ones because we're working with the community to continue working on on iterating on it and designing it and much much smarter people than me to have on here talking about it cheers thanks for coming on David of course thanks it's great having you