Aftermath Finance: Building a CEX Onchain, Sui MEV, and Eggs | Kevin

Transcript

with this idea when you want to build an exchange on chain you know completely on chain you don't want to have any uh you know offchain sequencer or any offchain like centralized offchain components you want everything to be fully onchain um you have a lot of underlying requirements there's the obvious which everyone's kind of aware about you need a high throughput network uh you need low latency you need censorship like very strong um forms of of censorship resistance and then you need a a very geographically diverse Network and S was able to provide us all four of these which allows us to house this entirety of the exchange on chain nothing said on zerx Research is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities

or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice Pacho Ryan and our guests May hold positions in the companies funds or projects discussed what's up guys welcome back to another episode of zerox research today I'm joined by Danny and Kevin who's the co-founder and CTO of aftermath Finance thanks for coming on Kevin yeah I appreciate you having me um before we get started do you want to give a quick background on what aftermath is and what you guys are building um yeah sounds good um so yeah uh we're building aftermath Finance we're doing a lot of the defi Innovation onu um so I think yeah we'll get into it you need to know a bit about the S

ecosystem in order to see kind of where we excel at and and why we're building here here um but we are building across uh a lot of the D5 verticals uh with the the underlying goal right to to build the the decentralized the full decentralized exchange right the entire sex experience all completely onchain all completely transparent um secure safe you know everything you'd expect uh with that Vision um so everything from you know the core Flagship product is fully onchain order book base perfect exchange and then ACC company it we have a lot of what we call ux futures but these are also you know in their entirety D5 verticals so today if you visited our site we have our amm we have our Dex aggregator that sits on top of

that we even have some other adjacent features that kind of sit on top of that and provide ux features or or other spot domains in itself and then we have our LSD um but going forward again the core of our product is kind of this fully onchain purpose exchange um and then we've been doing a lot of research on me onui which is a very new and exciting somewhat new I would say but new and exciting uh kind of research area that a lot of people are starting to look into with the Rise ofu um and we've been doing a lot of research on that and dags and how that inter plays so happy to get into any any of these pieces throughout this perfect I I I want to talk about all of those but I think before we get started um I kind of want to take some

time and talk about why you I want to ask you why you guys decided to launch on SOI and uh because it sounds like that's a pretty big part of what aftermath is and wants to be yeah absolutely um so I mean that's a great question we could ask that a lot um what I love to say is if I were to answer that question today it would be completely different to an extent it would be completely different from how I would have answered it so we've been building on S since uh you know before FTX collaps um kind of took that out of our pitch pretty quickly um but we've been building since then and the reasons we we chose to S in the first place they're still there but there are now a lot of new compelling reasons to build

on suite and if I were to answer that today versus then the answers would be maybe more refined today but um what initially brought us there was just the underlying um you know the tech it was a very Tech heavy decision um so when with this idea when you want to build an exchange on chain you know completely on chain you don't want to have any uh you know offchain sequencer or any offchain like centralized offchain components you want everything to be fully onchain um you have a lot of underlying requirements there's the obvious which everyone's kind of aware about you need a high through put network uh you need low latency like that that's just you know the initial two things you'd want uh you need censorship like very strong

um forms of of censorship resistance and we saw that with the dag um which I'm definitely happy to get into that um and then you need a a very geographically diverse Network um right it if you're uh an toio has a good example of this if you're in Singapore I don't want to have to send you know transaction to someone in New York first I want to be able to send it to a Black producer in in Singapore someone you know very close to me 50 milliseconds away so you need a very geographically you know diverse Network um and so was able to provide us all four of these which allows us to house this entirety of the exchange on chain um I can stop there and then there's a lot of more compelling

features today which I would also tackle on but that was kind of the Crux of the decision of Weiss we two years ago I think that makes a lot of sense and I think um you know what might be helpful because you guys offer such a broad array of products maybe let's start off from the very very um basic which is the purpose exchange what how does the how do the mechanics work on that side and what does SOI enable apart from so you gave a few options but maybe um clarifying why that um why SOI enables you guys to build the purpose exchange yeah um actually let me start with the amm everything is going to be generally the same but the amm's live today and

it's something you know after hearing this you could go play around with it and kind of visualize you could actually see the um see exactly what I'm talking about um so again some of the reasons I would mention like why sweet today um is everyone talks about the developer experience that is a compelling reason um to attract new developers but when of those things one of the good things about the devx onui is um its data model it's uh I'm sure you've heard about this it's object Centric as opposed to being account Centric which most most other chains are um this has a lot of different benefits um some you know around security some just around your mental model of coding um but one is um kind of the isolation you get at the um uh I guess the congestion level um so

the the correct way I would say to to design really any defi vertical but either you know per or or amm at the Crux of it at the center of that you have you know either the amm pool you have some market right you have some Vault uh you have some like Central entity um and you you don't want transactions that are touching one to have to interfere with transactions that are touching that if they're completely isolated at the transaction level you don't want to cause congestion for a completely unrelated piece of State on the Chain um and that's true whether you're talking about one protocol and the different faults markets pools whatever within that protocol and it's especially true when you're talking about um you know uh two different protocols unrelated protocols maybe

unrelated domains you have an nft mint you have defi um some defi amm like our amm um so you want you want that isolation so s allows us to do that because of this object symetric data model um at the center you have these uh these mm pools um and with this object Centric data model you have some ownership inherent to them uh and these pools themselves are shared so anyone can inter interact with them uh to the constraints of the contract of course um but it allows you to then interact with one amm pool in one transaction another amm interacts with another Pool in another transaction and assuming there's no third transaction that touches both of those let's just kind of throw that case out of there for

the time being you have these two completely isolated transactions they're able to be executed in parallel um post you know commit um post consensus and all that uh when they get sent to the transaction like execution layer um then they can be isolated or they can been ex executed in parallel so that's like a very compelling reason to build on S in the first place you also can then tackle on some some Concepts like a localized fee market so if there is one piece of state that's causing you know it's very hot at the current time maybe like an nft Mint or a lot of Arbitrage or something or new coin drop or something um you do want fees to start Rising there you don't want it to take up too much

you know uh like CPU consumption or anything like that at the validator level so you could have localized fee markets uh you know tackled on top of this and it's a very compelling reason and with our amm we are able to isolate these amm at the individual like object level perfect and um so apart from getting liquidity from your own amm you also have the smart order router which integrates other pools um why did you guys decide so I feel like this kind of fits into the One-Stop shop thing that you mentioned beforehand but how does this I guess um how do you decide on who to integrate uh where does most of the volume come from is it still from the aftermath am or is it from different liquidity sources yeah um so first how do you decide who to integrate with um

unfortunately I'd say that's kind of chosen for you when you run an aggregator uh you are responsible for the Integrations um and you just have to go where liquidity is which is right now onu there's uh you know maybe six dominant liquidity sources spot liquidity sources um now with Deb V3 we're getting another um another liquidity source and maybe make that seven um but right you you just have to go with the the liquidity is where user wants to trade something you need to allow that um and then there's some like less obvious um liquidity sources or maybe it's not an amm or an order book there are less obvious liquidity sources that you can tap in um

so that that kind of grows the Spectrum from you know a solid six or seven to like maybe around 13 today onu of of liquidity sources you want to you want to uh tap into but it's very much a user wants to trade something you want to allow that um you don't want them to have to fragment their their choice of I want to trade this very specific meem coin it's on an amm this integr or this aggregator doesn't integrate with it um so let me go to this other aggregator to trade this very specific mem coin and then come back to you for these other maybe blue chips or something like that um so it's very much uh user driven we just want to integrate everywhere um and then we just go on a say tomorrow to IMM uh came out and we had no idea they were

being built they just announced on the same day that they launched we would just go where liquidity is first and and prioritize Integrations that way um and then to answer the the first or the second and the question of where do we kind of see our aggregator smart or to router compared to our other products um and again it's very weird to say this because on another chain they're entire companies that that is what they do they build a um you know Dex aggregator and and they've made a business out of that you know Jupiter is a very good example of that um where for us it is you know it's it's in it's an an entire domain but we view it we do view it as a as a domain of course it's you know it has the party of a domain um but it allows us to then build these

user experience facing features um so I'll mention Dynamic gas um uh as kind of a poster child for for something that's POS wantu and and something that we've uh then like layered on top of our our Dex aggregator uh and dynamic gas is this ability for us to uh simulate for the user I want to pay gas in a coin that's not sweet so maybe we initially built this for our LSD AFU um so we allowed our users to only hold AFU and transact on on aftermath with pay gas purely with the with AFU and under the hood you know we're using our Dex aggregator to then route into s and then you you end up paying we sponsor we pay the S but we're able to like repay um using our Dex aggregator so we have a

lot of these user facing features that you would want there day one um you don't want the user to have to hold a specific liquidity maybe you want that zapping uh functionality of one deposit into a pool but simulate depositing some unrelated coin and then zap into a very relevant whatever the the pool's denominated and um you know zap into that and then deposit there are a lot of these you know user facing use cases that we want and the dexer provides us that um and then also it just it it is a piece of the exchange right it's it's a vertical that you would expect um we want someone to be able to do all their transacting on on aftermath and you know spot trading is uh is very desired so it's a it's another kind of relevant

feature that we need makes a ton of sense um a recent like maybe launch of interest onui is is deep book and the obviously they have their they've had their token generation event lately um but dbook is kind of positioning itself as sort of a key or major liquidity layer for S um andu you know dexes and products AC kind of across the ecosystem how do you guys how do you think that their product kind of will impact the ecosystem and maybe in relating that to like aftermaths model um you know are there are knock on effects you know do you see yourself competing with their product or is it really going to be a net benefit you guys yeah um I mean that's a great question so and we're

also in a an interesting position because we are competitors with them we're not we are it also just depends on on what uh what domain you're looking at right the obvious benefit is we are Dex aggregator we aggregate their liquidity they they have a lot of uh you know I think they're one of the most dominant you know native usdc just launched two weeks ago or three weeks ago they're one of the most dominant liquidity sources of native usdc obviously they're most dominant of Deep right they have some of these more Blue Chip assets um and they have very deep liquidity um I don't necessarily see them being the dominant for meme coins so from the amm front I think there's a lot of room um to still capture some of some of that demand that you would expect from from spot venues um it does get a little bit tricky on

the uh the Blue Chip side but I think there's always going to be some some external demand outside of dbook um and then on the Amon front like we are at the end of the day you do compete for liquidity someone wants to deposit it's either us or them um so it really just comes down to the asset and again there's room for mcoin growth outside of deep book um but I will say that with our amm we've we've designed it from the GetGo again as a user experience facing feature uh we envisioned you know two years ago we knew Wormhole is going to be there day one um and with Wormhole there's this is less of a problem today since there is native usdc but day one there was a native usdc um you had all these different variants of War hole

wrapped usdc from salant from ethereum from arbitr and at the type level these were not fungible um you held you know upwards of five different types of usdc wherever you bridged it from but then two asset pools could only hold one of those so if you bridge from arbitrum you know usdc Bridge from ethereum through Wormhole was the dominant kind of liquidity of of ethereum or eth um so if you bridge from arbitrum you couldn't deposit into your pool into that pool you had to then swap into um ethereum bridg usdc or Bridge back go to mainnet and the bridge again which either way it's kind of a poor ux um so we kind of envisioned this problem it was there with Wormhole but you kind of zoom out

uh there's going to be axar layer zero now there's the native Bridge from site you have that that same underlying issue just kind of across different uh WRA versions from from these different Bridges we Invision this problem we built our aim um um to support multiple assets multiple greater than two I mean anywhere 2 to 8 and then you have a very dynamic range of of granularity for weights so you could do like an 8020 pool 33 33 33 whatever you want um so we we think um there's definitely room for outside of these 50/50 pools for mean coins there are uh you know maybe some demand for an 8020 um and uh we definitely believe in our ability to kind of capture that that demand for me coins so I think dbook is going to kind

of grow on the Blue Chip side and then there's going to be demand for mean coins outside of dbook in kind of well suited to capture that yeah I want to I want to touch on that point a little bit more um you I think you made a great point about you know the the clob model sort of tying into those highly liquid assets but um then pointing out that you know longer tale assets meme coins as an example um as like an opportunity capture there is I think I think you sort of talked a little bit about like the am designs there specifically are there any other reasons that like aftermath specifically is well IED over other like amm dexes in the space um to capture that like mcoin or other longtail asset um activity um I think that's the I think we've been here for a

while so there's like the um you know everyone's kind of they know who we are we're very close with a lot of the communities on Suite so there's that aspect there the social side which I think we are um uh we're well suited to capture from from that point of view and then from the technical side uh you know most other amm on swe I believe every other amm now has either they launched with the clmm or they've launched with a you know univ V2 and then now upgraded to univ V3 and maybe they're in this hybrid position where they're running both but their focus going forward is on the uni V3 I think we're still the the only amm who hasn't gone that approach uh we really took inspiration from like curve or balancer with these multi-asset um kind of more Niche to an extent more Niche uh but

more Niche use cases out of just the dominant you know we really wanted to solve this one problem and I think that problem itself uh kind of the the granularity you have with weights the the ability to then if you want to have like a meme index on aftermath you can I think there's a lot of use cases especially for mean coins that that were well suited to capture um so I think from the technical side from the social side like we are in a really good position to capture that and then you have the Dex aggregator that TOS on on top of it and it just makes you know trading BR coins that are on aftermath much easier if you're doing it through aftermath already perfect I um moving a bit away from the dexes I want to ask about um your liquid staking token

so firstly I want to ask you guys did sip 6 or at least you proposed it or you worked on it I I kind of want to understand what the process of that is like and what's the process of um because you're very new to the chain and the chain itself is also very new yeah you're not new to the chain you're one of the old guards on a new chain so I want to understand what that process looked like of you implementing something that um many might consider semi basic to other like to an ecosystem and do you have plans to incorporate other rewards into um AFU potentially for me which is something you touched upon earlier as well yeah um yeah so good question so around sap6 you're you're mainly wondering what is the sap

process or or most so on the liquid staking side um uh yeah that yeah but okay um yeah for those who are unaware sap6 um it was uh the first sap to be to be proposed and then go to the like final implementation side like the full life cycle of the sap process and then roll out on testet and mainnet um and it allowed it didn't necessarily allow liquid sticking liquid staking was possible beforehand which I'll get into um but it allowed you know a very ideal version of liquid staking a very permissionless decentralized version of liquid staking um uh I won't get into the weeds of uh the reason we proposed

it um there at the Crux of like at the center of that there was a like a oneline change that kind of allowed this this thing and and it's very inherent to to move but I won't get into the two technical side of things um but before that you had to have a very centralized approach if you wanted liquid staking um which removed the ability for atomicity or composability on top of it um if you wanted to stake um your underlying Suite that you're staking had to go to a centralized address you know one address and it held it um and then there had to be some offchain infrastructure I kind of observed your your your stake and transfer a stake to that address and then it would you know mint the ASE for you which is like you you say that in uh

it's almost kind of funny how bad that design is um that's what was possible before sib6 sib6 allowed all that you know centralized offchain infrastructure to then occur onchain so instead of having the centralized address you then had some contract onchain some Vault what whatever you want to call it for us we call it a vault but that's what's holding the the sui that's kind of what you expect it's holding the Saku and it's responsible for then minting the AF for you um so very uh in that regard is very decentralized um and then with our LSD model for aswe uh we also didn't want some uh kind of Whit listed set of validators as you see with other liquid staking derivatives um we wanted if you

were at least in the the active validator set we wanted someone theil to have the ability to like choose you from a drop down so very permissionless in that sense um even though like we run our own validator we are Genesis validator uh we just wanted to allow anyone to stick to whoever they wanted maybe there's a validator today or maybe they join tomorrow we still want them to have the ability to um to get delegation through AFU um so yeah the sap process was was fairly simple by the time we proposed it it was uh it was something that like everyone uh we had kind of made noise about this and and everyone kind of knew was coming and and was aware of the benefit so uh it was a fairly simple process uh once we

proposed it to then move it to throughout um you know each of the like individual life cycle phases of thep process it eventually got fast-tracked so I forget the actual like time to completion from from when we started it um to actual implementation and roll out but it was like a matter of of a week a few weeks I think perfect and with the actual design of AFU do you guys um I guess maybe before this I want to ask a bit about how different is me and sui compared to Solan and ethereum and what have you guys been looking into it in terms of MV and aftermath finance and then maybe we can talk about um the LST potentially sure yeah yeah forget you uh I will I will touch on that that later

question of um uh you know additional rewards Etc um yeah so me onu it's been uh I wouldn't say overlooked um but uh there's just not a lot of people looking into uh primarily like dag based consensus you know a lot of researches on on you know single leader styles of consensus you know ethereum has a large amount of of research happening so is starting to get a lot large amount of research there's not a lot of research maybe broad research there's a lot of research being proposed for dag based consensus but it's primarily from you know the teams who are actively building on Su or rtos um uh so it's it's I would say it's kind

of been overlooked like uh maybe everyone's been wondering about it and and um no one's really had the answers U so it's it's been something we've been looking into since our beginning on onui and it's really exciting time to look into it and uh people are wondering about it but the large thing is you know s is this dag um um uh and and what does that mean composed or compared to know ethereum or salana um on these other chains you have a single leader designed where you know there's one individual validator who's responsible for you know aggregating transactions maybe proposing the order of transactions and then execution and and all of that um however that happens however they get

transactions whatever like at the the core it you have a single leader who's responsible um onui it it's very different have this dag process where let's say there's 100 validators I think there's 108 today but let's just stick to 100 um uh so we kind of progresses in a series of rounds where where every round every validator unless they're down for whatever reason but let's say they're not uh every validator is proposing a block so 100 blocks are proposed in a round uh each block includes transactions there could be you know duplicated transactions throughout these blocks if a user sends to multiple multiple validators at once um and then addition to those transactions that are included they also link to blocks from the previous round and it's like that

backlinking that then creates this dag structure um and then also uh during every round a series of those blocks um are selected to be uh leader blocks and then they are voted on to be committed and when you commit a block for a round you also commit the uncommitted portions of its history um so that is kind of the the core difference you have um uh the idea of of a block on on ethereum or salana is very different than an idea of a block on onui um and if I were to generalize the idea of a block on another chain um I would say it's a portion of of state that's been committed right you you have everything down to the specific order of transactions you know how to execute it

like you're committing a linear sequence of transactions and then from there you can execute it in parallel if you're allowed to whatever but you have a linear sequence of transaction onu the blocks themselves that are being proposed every round that's not necessarily exactly what's being committed it's that when you commit a block you're committing itself plus it's you know a portion of its casual history um so that history is then and then the leader block is then you know reordered from some deterministic ordering Rule and then you you're you're produce this uh you know linear sequence of blocks and then again from there that's what's been committed so that is kind of the idea of uh of an equivalent block to another chain um but due to that

reordering rule across you know the history you're allowed to have scenarios where um uh you know a leader produces uh includes a transaction maybe one of its parents you know from the previous round includes a transaction the leader transaction can happen before the parents transaction and that's just kind of inherent to the Stag structure to the way that commits occur um uh which is very nuanced and uh maybe sounds weird to begin with but I think it it it resolves revolves around kind of changing your concept of what a block is and and how to think of a block on a swe versus how to think of a block on you know another single leader base chain um which uh produces kind of a weird result for me um largely me is still possible

on S um you just have different types of MVB that could be captured um uh I guess mechanisms for capturing MVB like sandwiching is still possible um just the way that you you pull it off is a bit different um you know every type of of M that you'd expect from another chain whether it's Arbitrage liquidations whatever sex Dex arbs you know top blck whatever types um of M it's still possible on the dag it's as different in terms of how you are able to actually capture it and and what you have to do to pull that off um and then the last thing I I I'll kind of mention um with these tags is that there's no public M Pool um so that also uh kind of throws a wrench in into

um uh you know how you could pull off MB on Suite so it's today it's very limited to um if I send a transaction people who can um capture MB from that it's very limited to those who are in the life cycle so I'm going to send to uh you know a full node maybe the full node can do something to the transaction or the full node sends to a series of validators those validators can try to do something to it um right but that's a very minimal set um because you don't have this public m pool um so essentially you do have like a u every transaction occurs through uh you know private order flow you could think of it that way that's interesting I um I I kind of wanted to ask about

because oftentimes we hear the high chains they have less not M but they have less lvr impermanent loss um especially like specifically around amm and liquidity PS is that so that is obviously the same for sweep because it has high fruit and short block times but um is there anything else like you mentioned that it's just differently executed on like me is just different on Suite like it's the same types but different execution can you kind of dive more deeply into that yeah um so the the most important reason for why um why it's different onu is is that um I said when you commit a you know

there's a block and around uh the validators vote on if they're going to actually commit that block or not um let's say they do then they commit that plus its history and then they take that that history plus the leader block uh you know reorder it off of some deterministic ordering Rule and then they produce some some linear sequence of transactions it's that you know reordering that is very uh important for for how you can capture Meb um so today it's by gas price um you know you can imagine tomorrow it changes by something else but you have a sequence of of blocks across rounds uh you kind of reorder those those blocks and then the individual transactions by gas price uh from from top to least uh and then you have a linear sequence of transaction

and that is then sent you know that's what's committed and that's what's sent to uh the execution engine and then there's some other things that happen during the execution engine that can affect this but I think that deterministic rule is kind of the most important thing um and that's where you can get um uh let's say when a a validator produces a block um just during a around they produce one block maybe there's a sandwich opportunity that they're trying to capture but then when it comes time to deterministically reorder the transactions of of the history um that sandwich opportunity might just be completely reordered if they're unaware of this deterministic reordering and they're not aware of uh you know I need to order by gas price you could completely have that um that sandwich

opportunity completely reordered um and it's just entirely dependent on uh today you know the gas price of all the other transactions that are included in the history what transactions are or what blocks are uncommitted from the history um so it becomes very probabilistic on onu because um maybe at any given point you don't know which which blocks in my history are going to be um committed before my block is committed Etc uh so I mentioned also that um you know every round multiple uh multiple validators blocks can then be uh you know decided to be a leader and there's like a linear sequence of leaders in the round um it's also very dependent on that uh because you would imagine two leaders in one

round would have you know a large overlap of of blocks that they linked to in the previous round uh if I'm the second leader of that round and I'm trying to capture some MB off of a block in the previous round maybe it's being committed by a leader before me in the same round um so then they're the ones who's able to to kind of capture thembe and not me so it is very probabilistic off of uh you know the current state of of what I see versus what another validator sees um and then is that validator going to be committed before I am um there's a high degree for all of this high high degree of um of of likelihood that a validator is going to be committed um today on Su Le or the black is going to be committed U but

it's very probabilistic um and it's very inherent to that deterministic reordering rule makes a lot of sense um you went pretty deep into the kind of break down there I guess let if we can shift a little bit then um you know we're talking a little bit about how s me is a little bit different from other ecosystems what about the the devx experience I think you kind of alluded to this a little bit um right at the beginning um how does the the sued devx experience compared to other ecosystems especially if you have you know if you have experience building um on the evm or or in salana um if you have any specific kind of examples of that or just as builders onu in general like what are your thoughts here

yeah um so this is definitely something that is uh you know it's talking about a lot with s the developer experience and I think that's a very compelling reason um if I was building on another chain I don't know if it would be that alone would be compelling enough to get me to like completely rewrite my stack to then support s right but as you start looking beyond what the I don't know there's less than what 40,000 developers across all of web 3 I forget the exact number like 36 or something like that but if you start looking to the broader audience um that is a very compelling reason if I'm going to enter web 3 for the first time um as a developer as a web2 developer I do have expectations for uh you know infrastructure uh you know the entire

stack that I'm I'm looking for for an ecosystem um and when it comes to the language itself like the developer experience is is kind of that much better onui so I do see it as as being a reason for new developers to to S over other ecosystems um and there's a lot you could talk talk about um to give a few examples I already kind of Ted on the object Centric data model and and how that affects security or um I guess I didn't touch security too much but how it affects you know congestion and the ability to have transactions executed in parallel that is a like a very good selling piece for building you know High throughput applications onui um there's another feature I'll talk about programmable transaction blocks or just ptbs as I'll call them um this is a huge

selling point for building onui um and I think our Dex aggregator it do in general like the idea of a DEX aggregator is like the poster child product to visualize how this is so impactful um so with all these Dex aggregators you're chaining together a series of swaps from different amm or spot liquidity venues um at the time of when you're trying to find a route you don't really want a limitation on you know the number of um uh say when you start a route you're going to split your initial coin into you know 50% and that's going to go through an individual route and then 30% and then 20% or whatever arbitrary amounts but you want to then split it um to be more Capital efficient um and then

each of those routes you don't want to limit for the number the number of individual trades like the length of the route you don't want to limit there um with b2bs you're able to completely offchain after you've you know kind of figured out the um through algorithm you figured out the route that you're going to take you're able to chain together on chain function calls um so maybe I'm swapping at one uh some decks on chain and then I can I can physically take the output of that which if it's a swap the output is going to be the output coin and I can take that and use that as input for another another function so another Swap and I can keep doing that you know there's some limit some like arbitrary limits um much higher than you would actually need to do in practice like

10,000 or or not 10,000 like 1,000 or 2,000 different function calls but in theory I can do any um any amount of swaps that I want onchain and it's ability to kind of chain together this is extremely impactful um and allows us to build something like the Dex aggregator um but it allows us kind of across the board for all of our products um if there's any number of like Dynamic transactions that I need to do under the hood p2ps allow you to do that in one Atomic uh you know transaction itself um so let's say the lack of this when we first started building on we wouldn't have this so their deck aggregator if you were doing you know 16 individual swaps you would get a a swap you get like your wallet popup you would click

accept then a second one would come up and that would happen 16 times like that is a like obviously terrible ux but pdbs this allows you to do it in one Atomic transaction maybe on that 15 swap you have some slip a error goes out of bounds you'd want to fail and then revert to the beginning of you know the state of the beginning of the first trade uh with p2ps that's possible without P2 you're on that 15th you know wallet popup you click accept it fails and then you're stuck with some random coin um in theory some random coins so pdbs allow you to do um you know Atomic composability at a different level compared to other chains and the object ownership or the object Centric data model kind of inherent ownership around that allows you to kind of build very

high throughput applications due to the um the way you access uh these different objects on chain and there's also a lot of security benefits around this object Centric data model and that if I own an object only I can interact with that object so the wallets or sorry the coins in my wallet only I can interact with that um which is a very strong guarantee to have and that happens um you know at the uh it's kind of baked into um the by code verifier itself so it's like very low level these you have all these different um you know benefits these features for building that's me they're all built in at the the lowest level you can have it there's a very strong um

sense of safety of of of guarantees you can have that makes sense that that was a good I think overview of some different um functions experiences here that are are beneficial for you know potential users of of sui and developers um with kind of with that in mind um you know you're You're Building onui how do you seeu as like an ecosystem or a chain capture more market share both for developers and for users like within this this broader ecosystem um of of crypto and blockchain adoption like how does s compete do these different features from a devx perspective that lead to you know benefits on the user side is that part of it or or what you

know how do you see you knowu continuing to grow from here yeah um yeah it's a great question uh so I'll focus on developers first and then I think a lot of the effort that's put there will also um you know in the long run bring more users um I think they're um first you need to just attract more developers you need more interesting use cases that only s can provide um so you need to First just attract the developer set and I think they've done a fairly good job there um just across the board and uh you know ourselves included we've we've been able to attract developers from both SLA or uh ethereum and and kind of onboard them into s um very like one-on-one we've done a lot of that um and it's it's

interesting getting their viewpoints and they kind of see the benefits too and they're they always like you know this is you know it's so easy to write and and move and all that um that's beside the point But first you need to subtract the developer set and I think that's been the focus primarily and then with that you get new use cases that are being built onui and then with that you get the users that come and very much in that that first that first phase um but I think you need to see more Innovations onui in terms of the I'm just going to focus on defi in particular clear because that's kind of the vertical that um that I live in um but you just need to see more Innovations of what's possible onui um so we're starting to see that to an extent some like

diversity within the applications onui I think there still needs to be more diversity um you're starting to see more coins whether it's you know Blue Chip coins whether it's me coins you're starting to see more coins onu which is good and that's been able to attract some of that the mean coin hype of Sana we've been able to get some of that over onui and I think it's going to continue to grow and attract a different set of of users um but still beyond that you you still need more diverse applications so I think our pers I think that is going to be something that that drives a lot of users over to Su it's going to be a new exciting you know innovating uh product that's launched onu um I think also outside of that so uh we we've touched on a bit you know

the M capabilities onu so we've been doing a lot of work there um if you Zone in specifically on maybe some Market makers but you know Searchers are some of these more like highly skilled technical people who who want to you know from that side of things they want to interface with sweet but there's some of the infa that's not available there we are working a lot on that dayto day um so we're going to be able to onboard physically and a lot of these Searchers who spend a lot of their time on salana these days or maybe uh you know on some l2s um but we've been we've been interfacing a lot with them and uh slowly getting them onboarded and I think there's a lot of a lot of room there but again it it just kind of comes down to First you need to bring the

developers but then you need to build you know new and exciting innovating use cases in some cases just some infra that you know you expect whether you're a Searcher whether you're user or a developer uh there's some infra that needs to be there um and we're still kind of seeing a lot of that be built out and I think in part we're building a lot of that out but a lot of teams and S are also building that out or missing themselves or building that out great points um maybe maybe diving back into you guys more specifically again um you know how has I guess for aftermath specifically how has growth been for you guys obviously we've seen some growth of the S ecosystem lately there's been some excitement there um is there anything

that you guys as a team looking back over the past maybe six months um would have done differently just you know looking back at the path um that you've had getting from you know getting to here now and and seeing the kind of relative excitement around s and the activity um yeah was so I mean if I if I could have spoke to myself six months ago I would have said buy moreu we held quite a lot ofu um but I would have said buy even more um um what would we have done differently I to be honest I'm I kind of like her journey throughout s um I think if I could have talked to my two years ago there are aspects that have changed

quite fundamentally onui and maybe we would have launched with other products first um uh about six months ago I I think I'm fairly happy you know I like our growth um I think we slowly you know the price has been going up getting more users just on S in general and I think aftermath has been able to capture a lot of that um and build quite a strong community and if you kind of zoom out a little bit beyond the six months you do have the the launch of our eggs and I think we were like really pleased with the launch of that and you know the ability to kind of before that you you see community Through Discord numbers through you know likes or retweets on on Twitter um but then you launch an nft you can kind of pretty quickly see uh the community you've built um and then

even since then you know that was you know January or February of this year I forget exactly which month um you know so we continue to grow since then um it's built quite a large uh Community since then um and we we still get people to stay talking about eggs which is which is fairly exciting um but yeah I would say we're very happy with with the community we've built um and fairly happy with kind of our road map onui and uh what we've done and kind of the order we've done to get to our to where we're at today I need to ask about the ex um Kevin what's the plan with DX and what are we what are we going to do with them what should I do with my X is I guess

the main question that I have you should hold it that's that's probably as much as I can say um I will say what's kind of funny is we maybe it's bearish maybe it's not we had like this whole road map planned out for the eggs um and then we launched them and people loved the eggs um so we kind of wanted to stick with the eggs for a bit longer I think there's more it's a funnier Community I would say uh but there's more meable content you can create around an egg and we we were not anticipating that in the slightest and then you know we launched the the eggs they sold out within I think six hours then from there you know as soon as we launched them we had um I

don't know every day like people are creating memes still to this day we have people creating memes around the eggs um and it's it's really fun to see perfect I um I guess just to wrap things up what are you guys what's coming up for you guys over the next six to 12 months what are you most excited about yeah um so lot's changing on we itself and and we're kind of waiting for some of those changes to to launch some of our products in the longer term of the maybe four four months to a year you'll see the the launch of what we've been working on the Meb side um and kind of iterating there and kind of attracting clients whether it's validators or researchers or Etc um uh that's primarily going to be our Focus

um between those two is kind of how the team split today um and then you have some other smaller features that we'll launch but I think the big flashy products those are both it you'll see um you know definitely well within that time frame you'll see the laun of per on testate and then roll out on Main net um and then you'll see kind of the initial release of what we've been doing on the me side um and then it'll continue to evolve and become more of a um uh just like an ecosystem I'd say perfect and um where should our listeners go to find out more about aftermath um you your your FS on me the X

um yeah there's oh yeah so we're building quite a bit so there's a lot you you could do to kind of stay informed we've got a Discord I'd always recommend that um we have our Twitter aftermath F I'd recommend following that I my Twitter I think Kevin aftermath we have an intern I'd recommend following that um that kind of gets the general day-to-day around you know what we're building if specifically if you want thoughts around Meb um I just released something called concurrent research um I think it's Twitter's concurrent XYZ I'd recommend following that hopefully we'll be releasing more things aboutme and dag me and all that um in the near future so I I definitely keep an eye out on kind of all those

socials perfect Danny do you have anything you want to tell Kevin before you we thank him I think it was great Kevin went really deep on uh me on uh dags and onui and aftermath of course there isn't that much content out there for um Su or AP so like dag M so it's good people are gonna get a we're gonna nerd snipe a bunch of people I hope so yeah actually within the past two weeks there have been a lot of research not around Meb on on on dags but just a lot of dag based research has been proposed primarily from the M side it's like one of researchers is busting out a lot of papers um

Kevin thanks for coming on yeah I appreciate you having me glad to have you on [Music]