A New Blockchain Law in Crypto Country Liechtenstein - Thomas Naegele on The Blockchain and Us

Transcript

[Music] hello and welcome to the blockchain and us we're pioneers and thought leaders talked about their journey in blockchain technology crypto assets enter token and I'm your host manuel staggers if you enjoyed this podcast please give the top rating and review on itunes and feel free to follow me on twitter at Manuel's dagger this episode is brought to you by christos storage crypto storage offers a proprietary solution to enable professional storage of crypto assets the gorge is secured both physically and digitally on the highest grade hardware security modules with detailed configuration possibilities for

individual based access control to learn more visit www.hp.com/recycle a Thomas is the president of the crypto country Association in Liechtenstein and he is an attorney and legal adviser running a law firm with a special focus on Internet IT law civil and corporate law and blockchain technology Thomas advises international finance technology and industrial enterprises as well as public institutions he is also a software developer and a lecturer in IT law at the University of Liechtenstein and now to the interview hi Thomas and thanks a lot for taking time today yeah

thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about one of our favourite topics here in the kitchen as well the Prime Minister of Liechtenstein Arjun Hustler recently announced a blockchain act to put the country on the map as a global hotspot for crypto and blockchain companies so what exactly is the goal of these plans actually the goal of these plans is besides making the jurisdiction more attractive for these businesses I think another or the main purpose of this law is to get a little framework where not only the startups in that area have a play field where they can develop their ideas but on the other hand have

legal certainty when it comes to their business ideas and that's the main goal or one of the main goals of this of this blockchain Act to get legal certainty - to the projects itself I mean in Switzerland we also often heard that right as kind of a USP for the country where the regulator said well you know we want to give legal certainty to icos and and other companies in the field so what what exactly is necessary to provide legal certainty I think it's one approach and that's approach we had from the beginning is that you get in contact with the regulator and analyze the existing legal framework and see what

provisions you have to follow and that's what what happens until now that we analyze what's what's necessary today and this is only possible if you have clothes like a connection to the regulator in that way that you are able to present your business model and they will analyze that as well and tell you if this falls under any license requirements at the moment that's that's one way but if you have a look at I mean it's it's not possible to scale that in a way where you're able to deal with hopefully the demand in the future it's possible today that that's our problem but in the future if you have a lot more

business cases it's not possible to approach with every case the financial market authority in Liechtenstein therefore you have to have a legal framework where you know what you have to do which which other requirements you have to fulfill so you can give like the all of the advisors attorneys in English in shine I can based on that law help their clients to make a legal legally compliant business in victims 9 so it's very it's really necessary that you have an act where you know what you have to do and which guide which guides you have to follow which provisions you have to -

to comply with since the announcement of the of the blockchain Act what has happened so far we got a lot more attraction globally that's I mean we after the announcement our Prime Minister was interviewed by bigger media media companies in that area to give interviews and when you travel around globally on conferences and you just hear more and more besides I think it's about like half a year ago we were not mentioned besides Switzerland and other crypto friendly

jurisdictions and this changed at least that's my my like what I experienced if I go to conferences the different sign is now one of the crypto friendly jurisdictions and they are well aware of that I mean I also read in an article about this blockchain act that one of the goals is that many companies will prefer leaking Stein over Malta group Gibraltar Singapore Bermuda and and Cayman so how exactly will that happen the question is if like our prime minister said that it's not only regulating icos or part of this area the

idea is that with this new blockchain act the ideas that he regulates the basis which is needed for a token economy so and it's not only regulating a part of it it's it's a very comprehensive legal framework for developing a lot of others of the business case is not only regulating like the funding part of API Co part of it or the TG part of it and I think this gives legal certainty if you have a project and you aim for a jurisdiction which thinks about legal problems which arise out of that in the future and it's not it's not only sufficient if you have

regulation for the funding part of it you have to have for example if you want to bring the company shares on the blockchain you need a league of which allows you to do that that's that's one thing right I mean the company shares that you just mentioned I mean also I read in in an article that the intention is to take a much wider approach right then that let then the legislation of other countries to create the basis for an entire token economy so thus does the government also have a rollout plan for how such a token II economy could be introduced I am not aware of such a plan and I think it's not publicly announced so if they do

have a plan I'm just not know it in the end I mean they at the presentation of the blockchain Act they talked about this token economy and they also invited other other lawmakers to have a look at their draft on their blockchain act so I think it's yet I think our government thinks that it's it's needed that our other jurisdictions have like decay like somehow the same rules or solve the same problems is there jurisdiction because in the end it's nice when you have like an act in the sunshine but it is a

problem which has to be solved kill bully but this is maybe maybe it's good to have a look at that to get some ideas what is needed are you also involved in the legislation yes we were me personally I was from the beginning in the work group with the government evaluating if the regulation is needed and which kind of regulation might be good and also me myself with my law firm was involved with the government in writing the draft off the block connect how did this idea to to have such a blockchain legislation how did this idea come about the prime minister approaches one and a half year

ago I think to area to evaluate if a block connect or which act or which regulation would be good so he initiated this workgroup with other players from the financial center in shine with fiduciary with with the financial market Authority and some other members of that area and so we sat together and discussed actually meanwhile we were having these projects in leaking shine what would be nice and necessary in different sign to to be regulated and so this all started one and a half year ago mm-hmm what is the

the block change scene or the maybe the startup scene in the whole crypto space what is that like in Liam Stein currently currently it's getting bigger and bigger and we get more attendees to the meetups we get some different versions of meetups we have a blockchain crypto both party and of this month in the techno Park in Liechtenstein so it's growing I mean for example we yeah we have our old office in the house of blockchain which is a co-working space we do that together with the Eternity unstyled indication you might be familiar with from from yummy sloths mal

HOF and there we give them like not only a home the project but also make it possible for them to discuss their ideas and maybe to discuss some problems they face currently and to do that let's say not not only do day times but have a barbecue in the evening and like to give this whole topic Home Edition as well but there are a lot of others and other ideas around and it's it's developing very very fast at the moment so I think the scene is getting bigger and bigger and it's developing rather fast about how many companies are there

currently active in this space the problem is that there are no official numbers and the thing is that we that we if you look at that register it's quite hard to find it out because not all of em are called crypt or whatever but I mean if you look at the numbers the financial market authority published they said they had about 80 requests last year and now they had about 100 or something this year already so I didn't know how many are founded but yeah it's it's just not possible to give you that number based on our client side I'm pretty sure that it's above 100 at the moment but I didn't know liam Stein is him in similar boat I think

like Switzerland right I mean has a banking tradition it had some favorable laws and now there's this chance to reinvent you know maybe some of this framework to to become more current right was it one eye one person who had this idea or or you know was it a group or was it maybe even you know the the monarchy who read somewhere about it I mean I'm just curious where that comes from you know where how this momentum generated no I think the momentum was pretty clear I mean the the Prime Minister asked if I mean for example I was at the conference and I was asked by the government if we want to be part of that work group and so they had because

what happened before is that we approached them with some projects we went to the government and discussed just like the idea of having them in the sunshine and having them founded in the sunshine and do their business in Asian style yeah it's interesting I mean it seems like it's it's a very progressive government in Liechtenstein because I also spoke with gasolina from Bank freak a few weeks ago and he also said he said he didn't have to do much convincing work in the bank you know to focus more on on blockchain and crypto it it was almost natural and so maybe it's the same case with the government yet in this time that you can talk

directly to the Prime Minister if we have an idea and they they also invite the startup all of the startups to present new ideas to them and they can check if if an amendment of a law is needed or if they have to do something else to help these startups and they are very open to new ideas so actually actually was very forward-looking from the government to see that it's that there will be a demand not only for a regulation itself and I mean this was an ongoing process first of all that he said it okay we have to have a closer look at that there's something coming and this was in the beginning and then when we saw okay

in the workgroup okay we we don't have to only regulate the funding part of it I see OTG part of it we have to regulate also or just provide the legal framework of the token economy and that was very forward-looking I think and that they said okay that's that's what we think and please let's let's make a draft of the blockchain act providing this legal framework before we spoke a little bit about the rollout plan for this token economy but I'm sure when you maybe sit with the prime minister or other members of the government do you sometimes also you know imagine what may be the future looks like in 10 15 20 years for us I

mean that's for me personally for me personally it's pretty clear that this technology will have a very big influence and impact on the financial on the financial intermediary so therefore it will change a lot and I think if you if you analyze that technology and the possibilities out of that technology hopefully it will it will be possible for us to play a role in that area and therefore that our financial center not not has like less business rather than like I think me me person if we do that right I think it will give us a lot more

work each time and the thing is hopefully this this technology will allow us to not to do like very very boring tasks let the technology do the boring tasks and us focus on there on the very on the tasks where you have to be like clever or where you have to have right people working on that I mean it's not it hopefully it will not be necessary to use a lot of like financial community intermediaries for simple tasks which is now I mean and technology will provide solutions for them you mentioned some of a somewhat of a

vision that you have right for yeah for maybe a new kind of economy or maybe also for for leechline as a country what are other things that we could expect in our life in the future I think in five years or hopefully in five to ten years I think it's not it was for us it will be like using the an email application or like using the elective browser you don't think about okay I use a browser now because I want to enter the thing called Internet or because I want to write an email like this is the new kind of messaging system which is somehow

connected by our tables to other computers and whatsoever and I think like at the moment if you start in that area and for example if you want to to buy your first cryptocurrency mm-hmm it's it's quite a task I mean you have to know what to do a lot of people will tell you a lot of strange stories about it and they they will tell you that you have to be very careful which you have to be sure but it's it's a step you have to be like it will it will take some time until you have like confidentiality okay that the system works in this or that way

and I think and I hope that in five to ten years we can trust these technologies and like the brother massive people will trust and for a good reason trustus this technology and use it on a daily basis and i hope and i think that this is going to happen that you that you that people will not fully understand everything because today I think the minority of people understand how the internet works but everyone is using it and I hope that like because you do still have a lot of people which tell you that yeah this is the biggest scam ever and this technology is is not the

future proof because there will be quantum computers and whatsoever and I hope that we will have the certainty in in five to ten years that we use that as like as we use other technology and it's not like a meaning of I believe in this and that it's it's not it's not a question of belief it's just because we do that on a daily basis we can trust it it's working and we have good experience with it do you already see some signs of this happening currently I think that everybody can see science because in the end if you for example every of my employee gets a wallet I hardware wallet so every everybody who's starting in my

law firm gets a hardware wallet and then I just I transfer them some minor values and they start to play with it at the okay this is see how it's very volatile you know I lost this in that or again this and that you know and this they start to discuss under each other and they share ideas say you see there's there's this new currency and they do the decent at or yeah you know it was very easy to transfer this so like now I have to do an update and whatsoever and this is like with everybody I talk and with everybody when I tell them the basic idea behind the technology and let's say at the moment its TLT and and

or blockchain and if you understand it this ah yeah that makes sense you know hmm okay now I understand what's the idea behind it and then they change then they have like okay I have I have understood the basics of it and I can decide then if I want to use it or not sure I have people which after all they say no I will never do that I will never put 10 Swiss francs on such a device because I totally don't trust it you know but this is the minority if you have a look at the people who understood the basic concept of it the majority is they trust the technology afterwards hmm and I think so

these are the signs that's actually cool I mean so you that's sort of fun education almost that you perform when with your employees I mean is this is the reason is this not that you're paying salaries or something on to encrypt our currencies right I mean if an employee is asking me that we can talk about that I mean I I do accept to pay my bills in cryptocurrencies that's possible like crypto currencies like Bitcoin and and a nice ER not not with tokens but with with crypto currencies like Bitcoin you can pay my bill but since a long time ago I think it was a beginning of 17 I except a trip to as payment how many people play in crypto just curious yeah let's say at least 20

to 30% yeah that's 20% yeah okay well but that also maybe has to do with the fact that most of your clients or crypto companies the companies okay cool interesting how did you originally get into Bitcoin and blockchain because to code software for about ten years and always interested in IT and it was about 11 when I've got first hear of Bitcoin so I realized that there's this cool software called Bitcoin back then and I was I was desperately trying to get some of these bitcoins download the software and that was like my first touch to

Bitcoin then sorry to interrupt but how did you how did you learn about Bitcoin I mean you said you saw this somewhere but did somebody tell you about it or was it a group somewhere University or at your work so I don't know exactly where my first contact was but I do remember that it was in 11 because I started there with with my first that like the first time I downloaded the software and used it and yeah and in 2013 because I started my PhD I I was on the search of a topic and then I realized yeah I mean that that would be a very nice topic because it's kind of like it touches the financial

industry a little bit which it shine is very very good if you write a PhD in that area so everybody's telling you write a PhD about relations of trust or whatever and the other hand its it has a very big technology the technological part of it so you have to understand both worlds and I thought that that might be a very good idea I approached my former boss and asked him yeah you know I want to do my PhD about Bitcoin I said what your favorite told me Thomas please write about something of purpose like foundations or whatever you know some need for your future what did you

end up writing the thesis about actually I didn't finish until now but now I'm closed because the good thing is that I work on a daily basis now in that field so it was it was easy for me just to do all of the research to do my PhD so my title at the moment is token undulating shine law and like like an eagle the legal nature of a token and that's actually everybody is talking about token but if they have a close look what a token really is and which type of token are are existing at the moment it's very hard to find a proper legal definition of a token and that's that's

actually the content of my PhD at the moment hopefully I will end it soon but yeah we with all of these developments I said let's start with doing the practical perfect and maybe later we can we can yeah right right to hear the PhD about it I mean since since you're an expert in this field I'm just wondering I had an argument recently with somebody whether bitcoins are data or not that that's exactly the question if you look at transactions and what what your bitcoins are that's like the result of a calculation sure the the result of a

calculation then is stored for a certain period of time somewhere the and this storing of the the result of the calculation that's data so meaning the the record of ownership and transfer that is the data but the individual token is not data for example if you if you look at when you for example you see cerium and that you try to token sure then you have the code which defines the token and I think you have to differentiate between these and the units you get on on the Bitcoin

blockchain I think this is a different type hmm no but bitcoins are data or not you know if if bitcoins are bitcoins are not stored as data so the the the amount of what is connected to your address is a calculation and therefore it is data but just for a for a very short period on on not on the Bitcoin blockchain but where you do the calculation and it's not it's a it's if it is data then the whole Bitcoin blockchain is the data of your Bitcoin okay what if what is a

Bitcoin if not data that's right that's a very good question and that's what what what I told you did the thing is that it's the result of a calculation and therefore it's always data in in in debt in that respect you know but people think that bitcoin is a number or is is a store of records on where and this is not the case it's not that it's data in in the meaning of its stored that Thomas has X a Bitcoin somewhere and if you want to know how many bits can I have I just have a look at that record and then

it will says aha Thomas has this amount of Bitcoin and that's not the case so sure in the end in the end you can and and it's true that bitcoin is data in a way that it is calculated in the end you know okay I have this amount of is is is linked to that address that's that's data in that moment but it's not people think that it's like a way like a record with which is existing and perpetual in the blockchain itself and this is not the case as far as I know interesting um I wanted to ask a few more things first

about being a lawyer and then maybe we can go back again to the to the blockchain law you you said you were for ten years a software developer right and I mean clearly you have a deep understanding of software in in the in the crypto field but how did you decide to make - to become a lawyer actually I mean I didn't do that full-time I wasn't a software developer full-time but whenever I because I you it was my hobby and whenever I thought okay there's a problem and there's no proper solution to it and I thought I can solve that with a piece of software I I did that so I I did develop a Time and Attendance Software I did develop

video over IP software - surveillance parking lot and these kind of software and I mean it started with very small things and then kept got bigger but so this was because I was always interested in IT and I grew up with IT and I I always had yet I mean I never was educated in idea I was self teaching myself from the beginning and I spent a lot of time with like solving problems in this area and that was like always my my my hobby and I like a lot but sooner or later I and one of my first things

that was was a championship about biometric fingerprint readers and I thought that like the perfect basement for being an entrepreneur is like to study to study law and I sooo know sooner or later I realized that the combination of IT and law is is is rather good if you look in the future and I thought that this is like the area where I want to spend most of my time because still now I mean I do some of the IT by myself and it's a lot of fun and to to have a look at codes and to discuss something but it's my work as a

lawyer is now very time intensive I don't have time to decode that's just at the moment that's just not possible and when I finished my studies in in 11 I went to the court to do the internship there and then I thought okay this is so interesting that every day you have a different topic and it's very challenging to understand all of these topics and I thought like this is the path where I want to go so I mean and I hoped that I don't have to turn my back on IT because my wish was to combine these two areas to combine IT and and law and even the law I mean or of being

a lawyer is very competitive field therefore you have to be very good at what you do and this is the niche I mean I I do understand IT and Laurent and it turned out recently that it was a good decision to focus on that and I mean it's it's it's very good field it's it makes a lot of fun recently how in Liechtenstein do you have a lot of competing law firms in this field in this field it's getting and who don't get me wrong better so we have more competitors because in the end if you have a jurisdiction and you're the only law

firm offering services in that area sooner or later you will have problems because you will not be able to deal with all of the demand and so if a lot of a lot of startups will not be able to found their company vision because the lack of service providers never go somewhere else so it doesn't make any sense to think in a competitive way I complete other way around i I tried to convince all of my colleagues and competitors to start in that area I even helped them out with templates you know to say please started an area because there will be so much demand that's my vision and that's just my point of view there will be so much demand that all of

us have enough work you know and and that's actually the same with Switzerland so I don't think that there's a competition between Switzerland and Liechtenstein I mean I hope that we find a way and the signs of our going into that direction and that we can work together to - I think because our competition if it is not Europe our competition is United States and Asia so I think we should work together and both jurisdictions for example in China in Switzerland both of them had has advantages and disadvantages but together you can provide in in some cases you can provide much better solutions if you for example

have a part of the business in Lincolnshire and another part in in Switzerland so for me I don't think that it's time to have a competitive view on that industry I think sure in the end you know there's always competition and you have to be prepared for that but at the moment there's a lot more demand than people entering the market let's take a quick break for a message from our sponsors Christo storage is part of the crypto finance group providing services for professional financial intermediaries and therefore bridging the gap between traditional markets and blockchain technology the storage solution offered by crypto storage raises market

standards by introducing a new security paradigm which features two layers of dedicated and redundant hardware devices this setup allows for a dedicated independent and highly flexible multi signature framework all transactions can be independently reviewed and approved on a dedicated tamper-proof hardware the hardware security module to tamper proof signing devices and the tailored software solution are all developed by leading Swiss providers with vast experience in finance and IT security to learn more visit WWF destroy CH there's a lot more than people entering that market yeah I think I think you're

absolutely spot-on there because I mean how many people live in the Stein I think it's about the size of Monaco or something like this right yes 37,000 37,000 yeah I mean because in Switzerland already you know with 8 million the issue is always how to get international talent into the country right yeah and I mean how how easy or how difficult is that in the Hinch time actually it's more complicated in some cases as it is in Switzerland so it's an easy yes part if we look at that area of relation is is Austria it's much easier to get a permission in Austria than addition or Switzerland but the problem in Austria I mean the

problem is that you pay in comparison more tax and for some of the talents this is this is a question they they ask a lot that they which is the Texas they have to pay and especially if they think about going to leakage down and then you have to tell them yes it's good if you want to complete them but we are not able to give you the residents permission in vision so you have to go to Switzerland and Austria and then you combine these two jurisdictions tax reliefs and none of them want to go to Austria and that's what I meant with with Switzerland as well I mean that's if you want to call

it that way this advantage of leaking shine that we have very strict rules when it comes to residence permission so it's easier to have them in in Switzerland and we we relied on that as well to get the permissions for Switzerland so they can work in Liechtenstein so meaning then but what would that mean for for a company who for a company from abroad that wants to start a business and Liechtenstein would they just incorporate the company or maybe with you you know have some sort of representative and then work somewhere else at the in the area or or live somewhere else in the area or how would that work there are two ways how you can do that one is that you have a nominee fiduciary for example so you don't have to have a CEO living around

or working on a daily basis in the sunshine but that's not sufficient for the type of projects which we see in most cases when it comes to crypto projects because what they do deliver products and services to people and if they do deliver products and services for people what they need in Legion is a trade license at the moment and so they have to apply for a trade license and a trade license one of the requirements is that you live in a distance of one hour so it's good if you live in two or in Zurich even surrogates good but cannot live in London and being holder of the trade license is a shoeshine so that's that's yeah that's the challenge we have

in some projects but what happens is that most I mean in most cases they have one CEO really working here on a daily basis and that's why we have the co-working spaces and that's why yo all ecosystem is developing because we have to have this part of the people here and that CEO would that have to be a local person or no that that's that's not needed it can be from forever you want I mean for certain circumstances you can apply for for for permission or an exemption but the rules are very strict there so in most cases what we do is that we set to them in Switzerland or in Austria hmm I

see oh if the if the project is big enough you know yeah that that might be possible mm-hmm it's that whole area you know with the permits and and the people actually living and working in Liechtenstein is that also part of this blockchain Act I'm only allowed to tell or to talk about the things which were already published and they I think there's none of these questions is answered in the presentation of what we talk I'm set but I cannot answer you that question yes sure because always I think when we talk about legal certainty we mean those obvious things about the technology but you know to actually run a business and

to start a company there's so many other moving parts necessary to build this ecosystem that I think Lina Stanton wants to build I think that our prime minister answered that question in his speech worried he had at the conference where he announced the blockchain egg I don't remember it word by word but he said something like if we ask our entrepreneurs to be forward-looking and to develop new ideas we have to at least as a government we should give them the the framework to do so so I hope that our government is going in that

direction that they support our supported developments to make the needed amendments to our law is if there are any needed amendments yeah so III think he said something like if it is expected for entrepreneurs to be innovative and adapting to change entrepreneurs may expect the same offer for country or something so that's so I am I'm very confident when it comes to that respect as well mmm okay cool in what language is the lonely Houston I mean is it German yeah all of the laws are in German English by Stein but I was told that it will be

translated in English hmm yeah because that's one of the main things I mean I spoke recently to people in England and they said yeah I know one issue with Switzerland is that we cannot read the law yeah sure I mean at least when it comes to the blockchain act I think that that I heard that it will be translated to English as well and the court system and all that I mean can let's say an English native let's say the CEO of a company would be it would be an English speaker can they how would they interact you know with the legal system on a daily basis or the regulatory system in

leechline I mean that's actually from a practical perspective that's not an issue because if you have like a formal proceeding okay and you have a church and most of the churches are able to speak English and they can decide whether they want to have a translator or not but if you have to act in front of court as a party and then they they will they will have a translator at the court to help you when it comes to for example to the regulator they do speak English and they they will their formal acts will be in German but if you approach them you can approach

gemination in English as well so and the all of the intermediaries and that's what I meant when I when I said that we have a very experienced financial center they are used to use English in their daily correspondence and on at the daily work so all of the fiduciaries and banks and and lawyers they speak German at the speak not only German but English as well so that's like surely an ad in that area I know that everybody I mean is using English that's that's like language it's not German at all mm-hmm cool so that's not necessarily then a deal breaker you know over maybe Malta or tipper altar or Singapore or somebody from London would say well at least

there I can speak with people so that's not a problem in Lichtenstein did already have a lot of meetings with the government and the financial market Authority our regulator in English so I never faced any problems in that direction another thing is Liechtenstein is a principality a monarchy do you interact with the with the prince at all I mean in your discussions when it comes about when it comes to crypto or I mean order any exchanges about you know what is the future gonna look like what is maybe for you we invited him before for the opening ceremony of the house of blockchain and sadly he had another appointment at that evening so we had to decide if the Prime Minister will make

it to the event so we had the prime minister at the opening ceremony of the house of blockchain but did you see the prior you do see the prince as well at conferences or at events and you can approach him directly to talk to him about about things he's he's the prince and he is not the Parliament or the government so I think that's you have to differentiate between these things but you can talk to him if you if you want to talk to him about cryptocurrencies I don't know if he's willing to accept but with all of other like with with a lot of other topics III have to experience

that that he can approach him and talk to him I think he gave a big interview in one of these what was it coin desk or something like this there was an interview I read and then I approached them and they said well we already gave that interview so we're currently not available for other interviews but I'll definitely try again Leontine is you said before it has a very strong financial sector and and to me right I grew up in in Switzerland and Liechtenstein always was you know of course was this monarchy this kind of fairytale place almost but then also the banking place you know a lots of rich people lived there you have all these multinationals there for tax reasons

sometimes you have a little bit of you know maybe shady dealings going on we don't quite know but there was always this kind of like interesting place that is mostly of focusing on finance but for startups for Entrepreneurship I mean is it's leaner and a good place for that I think that Liechtenstein is becoming better and better when it comes to debt to that question because if you start to work with other jurisdictions and if you have like exchange with lawyers from other jurisdictions and if you if you have clients and they see how it is in Asia in comparison to other

jurisdictions I think that we have a very very well and very good and very fast and very approachable administration and they are very helpful when it comes to to to startups and to entrepreneurs we do have a very open-minded government and regulator so I think in the end sure there's always something or some minor things you have to complain about but overall I think we are a very very good jurisdiction I think when it when you have like to see it from from the legal perspective on the other hand entrepreneurs they don't need only like a legal framework what they also need is like proper co-working

spaces or proper places where they can start with start their business and recently we had a lot of development in that area as well so we do have technical partly design which is member of the technopark alliances in Switzerland and we do have other co-working spaces in the book Gale we have to come to commodes there that's a very nice building as well you can have your your company started and you have showed the house of blockchain and we do have other other areas in in that direction as well so it's it's getting better and better in the end you know there are always minor things which which we can like amend and develop for being much or another like a

little bit better place as well I think what what what is good and the changes I just realized lately is that more and more young entrepreneurs are doing business addition and they want to to start their own business in the Houston and I think that's a very good development mmm cool I mean you mentioned before that you've been in this space since 2011 that you're constantly you know experimenting and pretty much at the forefront but how do you yourself how do you keep current on on what's happening on the technology maybe also on the challenges on the opportunities on all of that that's like a very that's a very complicated task I

mean it's it's not complicated in a way but the thing is that you have to do it on a daily basis and if you go for on holidays for example for a week and you get back and yes you try to read a little bit but you get back you feel like you're you're in a different Center in a different century what did I miss you know what happened meanwhile and and that's that's a very I mean it's a task which is very time-consuming and and that's what I you know okay I started quite early in comparison but the thing is I don't think that that you should call yourself and blockchain expert even if you do

that on a daily basis you know because in the end everything is to new and whatever you knew since years might be applicable might not be applicable tomorrow so it's it's it's very hard to keep up and it's it's a lot of work to keep up and what we do is like you're sure you you you have like that that's part of the idea behind the house of blockchain as well that we have startups and they can approach us I mean they can come to us and have a coffee and ask us yeah you know but even if if I need to have another employee do we need a residents permission and I will answer him the question while having a coffee but on

the other hand if I have an argue meant with a very nice reporter about if if a Bitcoin is data or not I can approach him and say yeah you know you develop these kind of software but what do you think is bit candidate is Bitcoin data or not and you have to do that as well and that's that's the idea behind the house of blockchain and sure I I mean I do go to meetups I didn't talk a lot to to that projects and to our clients and I do read all of these portals or not all of these but I tried to read at least some of them and but that's really hard which ones do you read I don't do

it for papers but I mean yeah the big ones you you have and I am part of some telegram chats as well and yeah I do read Twitter how do you go about separating out the noise you know order scams or just the spam so to speak from the real information that's another quite hard task I mean when you have to have what one part is that you that you don't have I mean in the law practice it's it's crucial that you find the scams and the Ponzi schemes and stuff you know and there are ones which are quite easy because they will tell you

that they issue token on their MySQL database and WordPress back-end so these are the easy ones but there are others which which actually it's quite hard to tell if they are real or if they plan to do a scam and in some cases you're just not able to to realize that that's that's when it comes to the law practice and if you if you analyze or if you read all of these these news as well I mean you have to if you haven't used or if you have like an information you have to double-check it and see if they don't just copy paste because then it's not off of no value but if they really have a different a

different view or opinion on some things and in most cases and that makes it hard one you have to be very fast you have to react very fast or to get the information fast and on the other hand it's only possible with time that you see what's right and wrong because you just have to have that moment to to analyze and to develop the right answer yeah exactly I mean when when you look at the way currently the regulator and maybe also the government works I mean what you just described it's like a total change in their operations right because they will also need to stay current and they will also need to know

what's going on and and you know how the technology changes so I'm wondering how do you see them coping with these challenges I do see that the our our government and administration they are more and more adapting in a way that they do read these way of information like the ones you already mentioned the some of them they do also like use Twitter so they read to eat a lot of information and for example Patrick ball and the head of the banking division of the financial market authority or

regulator he is tweeting currently on a daily basis about cryptocurrencies and and blockchain and to development the dairy but not only I mean FinTech and Bank in general but that that's just the way I see it that even they they they start to - yet to inform themselves more regularly about about the developments there's always this saying that we overestimate what's possible in one year and underestimate what's possible in ten years so what do you think do we currently overestimate about what blockchains and cryptocurrencies can do

for us I think in one year we overestimate how we can use cryptocurrencies on a broader basis for for payments or at the retail stores and everywhere so if you want to pay on a daily basis with cryptocurrencies I think we're not there for 10 years I think we totally underestimate the impact on of these technologies whether it's still blockchain or D LTE and maybe as changed version of it I think we totally underestimate how they the token and the token economy will impact our daily our daily work and our our daily business because I think and I believe

that there's this chance that a big portion of of the trades will be done why and an infrastructure based on a completely different technology and decentralized technology rather than having a centralized version as we do at the moment I think this is this is the most underestimated one when it comes to the people in general sure I mean in the blockchain space you find a lot of people having the same idea about the future mm-hmm do you think you'll still be a lawyer in 10 years I do think that a lot of law of the work of lawyers will

be done by technology especially when you have a look at big data analysis and artificial intelligence I mean you don't have to go much further but for example about 30% of a lawyer's work is research and algorithm can do research much better than every lawyer if you have like be like a lot of files you have to analyze you have to remember that still today there are teams of lawyers locked in an office when it comes to mergers and they just analyze every piece of paper and that's just incredible and and I mean this costs a lot of money it slow down the

proceeding a lot and this doesn't make sense so I think yes sure I hope I still I am a lawyer in ten years but I think even our work will change dramatically so we will at least a big part of our work will be disrupted by technology as well what kind of skills do you think are important in in this future start to understand technology start to code start to know you you don't have to code by yourself but you should be open to technology and and to not only using it but understanding the main main ideas

behind it and if you I mean if you want to act in that area and as a lawyer especially I think a lot of our clients will change in a way that because their business models will be disrupted by technology so we as advisors we have to be able to understand technology so I think that's crucial that has a basic kind of sentiment or understanding of technology in his future okay cool did I did I forget to ask anything Thomas I think one thing and one thing that I should be asked more is what do I think this technology or this development how this is influencing the

financial center englishmen shine in the meaning of do we need any banks and fiduciaries in ten years right lawyers or is everything done by by a technology called blockchain or whatsoever and what do you think III mean I think that it if we develop in the right direction and if we don't do it once with a blockchain act and say yeah this is it we started here so if we continuously adopt to the development and if we continuously try to be ahead of the developments or in the meaning of ahead

of the development of the framework I think that our financial center has the possibility to to have a big portion of the business in that area globally good yeah I mean that was really fascinating and I learned a lot and it was really interesting not just to hear about Lynch sign but also about how you approach things and what you see in the future so I really appreciate your taking time and thanks a lot for coming on today on this show yeah thank you very much for for your a very interesting question I think that we will have the answer to some of the questions in one year and some of our questions will be answered in five

years but I'm really looking very confident to the future thanks so much for joining us today more info on our guests and our sponsors is in the show notes of this episode and on the podcast website the blockchain and ask.com help people find this podcast it's important that you download subscribe and give it a top rating and review on iTunes or on the podcast platform of your choice I'm Manuel stackers and I thank you very much for listening [Music]