89 - Institutions are BULLISH | Eric Peters

Transcript

[Music] welcome, to, bank, lists, where, we, explore the, frontier, of, internet, money, and internet, finance, this, is, how, to, get started, how, to, get, better, and, how, to front, run, the, opportunity, this, is, ryan sean, adams, i'm, here, with, david, hoffman and, we're, here, to, help, you, become, more bankless, david, fantastic, episode, this, is with, hedge, fund, manager, eric, peters really, enjoyed, this, one, got, a, ton, of insights, even, more, than, i, thought actually, going, in, i, knew, this, would, be, a great, conversation, it, turned, out, even better, than, i, thought, what, were, some, of your, takes, yeah, eric, is, just, a, really pragmatic, thinker, which, is, rare, in, this space, especially, somebody, who's, in, the hedge, fund, world, that, yet, is, it, almost as, bullish, on, crypto, and, and, defy, as, we are, uh

picking, eric's, brain, uh, really, showed, me that, there, are, pragmatic, thinkers, out there, who, think, uh, in, in, pretty, real terms, about, how, this, uh, crypto revolution, is, going, to, unfold, uh, eric and, and, us, were, totally, aligned, on, us, uh thinking, that, this, is, a, crypto renaissance, and, he, did, that, without listening, to, our, crypto, renaissance podcast, and, so, we, pow, out, on, that, for, a while, and, overall, had, a, deliberate discussion, about, how, people, that, are, not going, to want, to, see, change, in, the, world, how they're, going, to, have, to, deal, with, this whole, crypto, thing, and, we, talked, about that, from, the, perspective, of, governments and, taxation, of, federal, reserves, and monetary, policy, of, you, know, the, the wealthy, boomers, who, have, everything, to lose, versus, the, younger, generations, who

have, nothing, to, lose, yet, everything, to gain, and, how, that, sort, of, friction between, these, very, polarized, parts, of the, world, how, they're, going, to, deal, with this, whole, crypto, revolution, so, overall a, very, um, pragmatic, and, interesting discussion, with, eric, peters, here, yeah it's, super, cool, it's, very, cool, to, see eric, come, to, many, of, the, same conclusions, separately, that, we've, come to, it's, like, about, money, you, know, the history, of, money, about, even, this, idea, of crypto, being, a, renaissance, about, the, you know, the, core, value, proposition, being decentralization, about, how the, us, adoption, might, work, so, he, came, to many, of, the, same, conclusions, that, i think, we've, come, to, on, bankless, only from, a, separate, angle, the, other, piece, of this, is, this, is, um, okay, so, uh, eric's firm

was, uh, in, 2020, was, like, the, first, the largest, institutional, allocator, to crypto, okay, now, he, talks, about, in, the, in in, the, first, part, of, the, the conversation, about, how, difficult, it, was to, buy, the, amount, of, crypto, that, they were, buying, it's, like, 500, million dollars, or, something, like, that, 500, 600 million, so, uh, he, talks, about, that, and, i just, i, i, just, can't, get, over, how, um big, this, is, for, crypto, right, like, this is, really, the, institutions, are, coming and, they're, not, just, coming, for, number go, up, like, i, feel, like, eric, and, his, team really, understand, this, asset, class, and why, they're, buying, the, space, it, was, also funny, because, uh, i, made, an, embarrassing mistake at, the, very, early, phases, of, this, by, like uh, anyway, you'll, have, to, listen, to, hear

what, that, mistake, is, but, it's, another example, of, like, the, crypto, world, doesn't have, a, lot, of, ties, into, the, financial institutional, investing, world and, they, don't, have, a lot, of, ties, to crypto, so, this, is, a, very, i, think bankless, listeners, who've, heard, us, talk to, all, sorts, of, different, crypto, native companies, and, funds, will, get, a, lot, of value, from, this, specific, conversation because, eric, comes, at, it, from, you, know, a traditional, hedge, fund, manager, how, is, a large, uh, allocator, of, capital, that's done, very, well, in, the, traditional, world how, do, they, think, about, crypto, and, what realizations, are, they, coming, to, about this, asset, class, so, stay, tuned, for, that we, talk, about, quantum, change, we, talk about, young, versus, old, and, the

generational, stresses that, might, be, a, macro, theme, here, we, talk about, the, story, of, the, us, versus, china how, they, are, playing, the, crypto, thing how, this, is, going, to, turn, out, from, a regulator's, perspective, um, we, asked, eric if, he's, worried, about, regulation, in, the u.s, you'll, have, to, tune, in, to, hear, his answer, to, that, and, then, finally, we, end with, the, case, for, digital, assets, this, is just, a, fantastic, conversation, we, think you, guys, are, really, going, to, enjoy before, we, get, to, the, conversation, we want, to, thank, the, sponsors, that, made this, episode, possible, matcha, everyone's favorite, decks, aggregator, has, just launched, an, open, beta, for, gasless trading, so, if, you're, trading, more, than five, thousand, dollars, in, common, eth, and wrapped, bitcoin, pairs, then, your, gas, fees on, matcha, are, free, and, that's, why, you

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gets, crypto, really, understands, crypto they've, been, a, massive, buyer, a, voracious buyer, of, both, bitcoin, i, believe, ether too investing, in, change, political, economic technological, change, quantum, change, as eric, calls, it, we're, going, to, get, into all, of, that, today, this, is, our opportunity, to, pick, the, brain, of, a, hedge fit, fund, manager, that's, been, crypto, red pulled, i, think, eric, how, are you, doing today, it's, great, to, have, you, on, bank list, it's, great, to, be, here, uh, i, yeah, i have, never, been, accused, of, being, red pill, but, that's this, is, not, usually, the, type, of, podcast i'm, on, so, uh, so, this, is, awesome, well, you know, what this, is, gonna, be, fun, because, we, don't often, talk, to, you, what, we, would, call, you know, eric, is, you, know, may, i, don't, know

how, you, think, of, yourself, but, it's, kind of, a, traditional, hedge, fund, manager right, so, like, we, talked, to, a lot, of crypto, hedge, fund, managers, we, talked, to a lot, of, vc, companies, obviously, people in, institutional, space, but, i, think, you have, a, really, unique, vantage, point, in that, you've, got, kind, of, a, bridge, in, the traditional, hedge, fund, world, and, also, in this, crypto, world, so, we, want, to, learn, as much, as, we, can, from, you, but, like, i, guess my, first, question, is, so, you, guys, are based, in, greenwich, connecticut, right, and that's, been, called, the, hedge, fund capital, of, the, world, there's, a, lot, of big, hedge, funds, out, of, greenwich connecticut, uh, what, does, everyone, think about, crypto, in, greenwich, connecticut like, do, they, all, think, we're, crazy, is you, know, is, there, a, recognition, that, you know, some, of, this, is, is, actually

happening, crypto's, a, real, thing, or, do they, just, think, we're, flat, crazy um well, number, one, i, love, it, you, call, it greenwich, just, because, it's, just, that it's, greenwich, so, it, just, shows, the total, like, the, total, disconnect, oh, my god like, this, is, all, about, you, know, filling gaps, right, so your, world, and, my, world, are, colliding and, uh, and, they're, colliding, in, grenwich connecticut um, so, sorry, to, every, all, the, greenwich listeners, out, there, in, bankless, uh, yeah it, just, shows, my, ignorance no, i, love, it, yeah, they're, all, just, a bunch, of, you, know, wall, street, guys, that

are, in, the, city, anyway um, no, uh, it's, excellent, so look, i, there, there, are, uh, uh, there, are, a growing, number, of, people, i, think, you, you know, you, see, them, paul, jones, is, on, cnbc today, i, don't, watch, the, nbc, but, everyone sends, me, his, quotes, all, the, time, so, uh you, know, he's, he's, been, a, big, advocate of, this, space, and, uh, you, know, and, he's he's, based, here, so um, increasingly, i, think, i, look, i, think, i think, people, who, are, who, have, built their, careers, around, identifying emerging, trends, and, good, investment opportunities, are, on, this, thing, and institutions, are, puzzled, as, to, what, what to, do, but, increasingly, or, being, drawn

into, it, and, so place, like, you, know, like, where, we, are and, and, quite, frankly, our, firm, is, kind of, at, the, center, of, of of, that, transformation, and, i, think, it, is a, transformation, i, think, it's, incredibly exciting, it's, the, most definitely, the, most, interesting, macro opportunity, macro investment, thesis, i've, seen, in, my, career and, uh and, so, a, lot, of, it, you, know, a, lot, of, it will, happen, here, right, i, mean, a, lot, of the, really, exciting, things, in, the technology, side, are, not, happening, here but, the, connection, to the, legacy, financial, system, let's, call wall, street with, new, technologies, is, is, going, to first, happen, in, the, pools, of, capital that, are, directed, by, a, limited, number, of people, as, opposed, to, some, kind, of, big

investment, committee, and, those, you, know those, faster, moving, limited, group, of people investment, teams, are, you, know, are sitting, here, in, in, places, like, greenwich not, certainly, not, just, greenwich, but that, that's, kind, of, how, the, capital moves, do, you, guys, feel, like, you, guys you're, leading, the, the, way, in, greenwich like, with, run, one, river, capital, is, there anyone, else, that's, doing, what, you mentioned, paul, tudor, drones, right, i, know he's, got, some, exposure, in, the, space, but are, you, one, of, the, first well uh, i, think, i, think, that, we, are, we, are the, first, traditional alternatives manager, which, is, otherwise, called, hedge fund, but, we're, the, the, first, firm, that's that's, built, a, business, around, that we're, over, eight, years, old, so, i, built, it

i, started, this, from, in, 2013., but, we're the, first uh, alternatives, firm, that uh, that, is, recognized, the, opportunity that, digital, assets, need, a, dedicated fiduciary, so, there, are, a lot, of, there are, a whole, bunch, of, terrific broader, financial, services, firms, in uh, in, digital, assets, and, and, a, lot, of those, names, are, you, know, are, pretty, well known, um, but, when, we, entered, the, space so, we, we, made, our, first, big, allocation uh, last, november and, uh, right, after, the, election and, as, we, did, we, we, worked, with, one, of our, big, clients, to, try, to, identify, how to, best, access, this, space, what, became clear, is, that, yeah, you, could, go, out, and

buy you, could, go directly, and, buy, these, assets, but, if you're, a, large, investment, firm, that needs, to, work, with, a, fiduciary, there really, weren't, any, dedicated, fiduciary so, there, are, firms, that, look, like, let's say, diversified, investment, banks, for, for digital, assets, or, crypto, and they, tend, to, have, a, a, whole, range, of different services, that, they, provide, they, may, be doing, prop, trading, they, may, be, doing custody, they, may, be, doing, merchant banking, they, may, be, market, making, they may, have, some, asset, management, products but there's, there's, no, one, that, is, just, just coming, out, and, saying, look, we're, focused purely, on, connecting, our, clients, to the

opportunity, the, investment, opportunities we, see, in, this, space, we, have, no conflicts, of, interest, we're, working purely, on, behalf, of, our, clients and, so, that, was, the, op, that, was, the business, opportunity, that, we, saw, and, so when, i, when, we, made, the, decision, to, kind of, enter, this, space, we, felt, all, of, our clients, should, be, allocated, to, these assets, um, i'm, sure, we'll, cover, that, over the, course's, podcast, but, the, reasons, why but but, there, just, was, no, one, that, they could, really, reasonably, work, with, in order, to, get, that, exposure, and, so, we decided, to, start, building, out, those products, that's, how, we, entered, this space, well, that's, super, cool, a, good timing, too, right, november, of, 2020, and, i believe, that, was, at, the, time, one, of, the maybe, the, largest, ever institutional, asset, allocation, to, to crypto, at, the, time, yeah, um, i, assume, what

did, you, guys, buy, at, that, time, i, don't know, if, you, can, go, into, all, the, details yeah, no, no, i, mean, a, lot, of, this, is public, we, bought, over, 600, million dollars, of, bitcoin, and, eth wow, just, right, after, the, election, and yeah, and, and, it, was it, was, a, five, day it, wasn't, 24, 7, because, i, i, don't, stay, up that, long, but, uh, but, pretty, much, uh, yeah it, was, that, was, a, lot, of, fun, is, it, hard to, buy, that, much, like, i've, never, tried personally david, probably, has, but, like, how difficult, is, it, to, buy, 600, million dollars, of, bitcoin, and, eat, it, was, uh, it it, was, well, number, one, i, didn't, know, how hard, it would, be, either, uh, we, needed, you know, we, we, really, needed, to, be, extremely discreet, um, we, work, with, multiple

counterparties, right, now, but, at, the, time we, worked, directly, with, uh, with, the folks, at, coinbase, on, their, institutional desk, okay, and uh, and, they, were, terrific, and, uh, quite frankly, we, kept, all, of, it, quiet, until, we were, pushed, to, disclose, it, about, a, month later, um but but, yeah, you, know, it, was it, really, it, was, such, an, interesting period, you, know, kind, of it, was, such, an, interesting, execution, if you, just, look, at, the, whole, thing, in totality, and, said, look, we, have, to, get this, position, on we, decided, that, it, was, important, to, get it, on, fast um, because, if, there, was, any, news, that leaked, out, we, thought, the, market, would fly, and, quite, you, know, when, when, news did, break, in, december, that, we, had, made that, allocation, that, was, the, day, that

bitcoin, broke, through, the, old, highs, and and, so, that, didn't, really, surprise, in the, sense, that, there, have, been, a, whole bunch, of, years, where, people, have, been talking, about, how, institutions, are, going to, come, institutions, are, going, to, come yes, and, we, were, the, first, institution that, came, right, so, we, kind, of, knew, that if, word, trickled, out, the, thing, would, run away, on, us, and, i, didn't, want, to, be having, to, buy, that, much, in, a, market that's, running, away, so we, yeah, they're, all, kinds, of, you, know games, that, we, played, with, the, market which, was, really, fun, to, do, i, think, it actually, was, ironically, it, was, uh, it, was probably, an, advantage, to, not not be, someone, who, has, grown, up, trading these, assets, at, size, because, i, think, a lot, of, people, are super, dependent, on um

algorithmic, trading, and, lean, on, their algos, we, used, a, lot, of, different, algos that, that, coinbase, had, actually, um, but we, used, them, in, kind, of, unique, ways, and um and, that, that, helped, us, kind, of, mess around, with, the, market, so, they, that, i think, they, were, a little, confused, as what, was, going, on, and, and, that, worked, to our, advantage, so, we, got, it, on, we actually, got, the, whole, position, on without, moving, the, market, um, in, fact, we they we, ran, an, analysis, afterwards, we, got, in below, you, know, kind, of, below, average prices, during, that, period, which, um yeah, amazing, it, doesn't, matter, these these, assets, move, so, much, you, know, a, few percent, here, there, doesn't, really, matter i, don't, think, but, uh, but, it, you, know whatever, is, great, it, was, gratifying, that

we, got, it, on, quietly, discreetly and, we, learned, a, lot, through, that process, well, and, congrats, on, the, timing it's, really, good, timing, of, course, we've seen, big, moves, in, both, of, those, assets since, now, here, we, are, at, the, time, of recording, we're, uh, just, at, over, all-time highs, for, bitcoin, and, approaching all-time, highs, once, again, for, eth, so, the timing, could, have, been, better, i'm curious, about, the, allocation, at, that time, i, don't, know, if, that's, public, too but, it's, like, how, much, uh, eth, versus bitcoin, what, was, sort, of, the, the, uh, the split, there, yeah, we, don't, really, go, into that, but, it, was, it, was, uh it, was, weighted, more, heavily, toward toward, bitcoin, interesting, okay, and, now we've, seen, obviously, uh, you, know, quite the, appreciation, of, these, since, then, but i, also, wanted, to, ask, like, because, you

have, a, few, other, notable, things, i, think at, one, river, capital, we're, gonna, spend, a lot, of, time, on, kind, of, the, thesis, and your, general, thesis, for, the, space, why you're, doing, things, in, digital, assets but, before, we, do, some, other, interesting tidbits, i, think, is, uh, you've, got, a, guy by, the, name, of, alan, howard, backing, you as, well, uh, i, understand, that's, a, very big, name, in, the, institutional, investor space, we uh, and, also, uh, jay, clayton, whom, of course, uh, we, recognized, in, the, crypto world, former, sec, commissioner, um, someone else, is, a, former, cia, legal, counsel, so it's, like, a, lot, of, the

established, institutions, right, of, the world, are, actually, coming, into, this, fund which, i, think, you, know, says, something, a former, chair, of, the, sec, somebody's former, been, like, deep, in, government, the cia, side, legendary, uh, you, know, fund manager, in, the, past, what, do, you, think they, see, in, this, space, do, they, just fundamentally, believe, your, thesis, for this, space, is, that, why, they're, jumping aboard, here um that's, a, great, question, and, it, hasn't been, phrased, that, way, to, me, just, you know uh, the, question, is, kind, of, whether there's, a, common, thread, i, would, say, that they're, they're, all, interested, for overlapping, reasons, but, they, probably uh, are, weighted, differently, so

so, alan, uh, alan, and, i, have, known, each other, for the, last, decade, he, actually invested, he, took, a, 25, stake, in, one, of our, asset, management, before, we, entered digital, assets, but, he's, since taken, a, bigger, position, in, our the, digital, um, subsidiary, that, we, have and, alan, is, one, of, the, greatest investors, uh, hedge, fund, investors, of, of all, time, uh, he you, know, he, he, has he's, known, for having kind, of a, unique, ability, to, identify opportunities, and, really, size, up, and manage, risk, extremely, well, and, those, are very, difficult, things, to, kind, of, have, in one, person, i, think

and, you, you, know, you, rarely, rarely, see that, and, so he, you, know, he's, done, a, tremendous, job of, jumping, on, all, sorts, of, trends, over the, years, uh, and, capitalizing, on, them, he was, the, earliest, traditional, hedge, fund person in, digital uh, he, tends, to, remain, pretty, quiet, about it, but, he, was, the, first, one, and, so, he has, he, has, interesting, investments throughout, the, ecosystem, um, and, has spent, a, lot, of, time, on, that, and, so, i think, he, and, i, have, wanted, to, be, in business, for, a long, time, so, i, took, a position, in, one, river with, the you, know, the, the, parent, company initially, and, then, was, even, more, excited after, we, entered, the, space, so, i, after, we we, entered, the, space, he, and, i, spoke

about, i, didn't, tell, him, what, we, were doing, ahead, of, time, of, course um but, uh, but, so, i, think, he, you, know, he sees, the, market, opportunity, and, the business, opportunity, um you, know, jay, jay, someone, i, hadn't, known jay, until i, i, and, i, look, i i, generally don't, want, to, spend, much, time, with regulators, they've well, like, just, to, be, clear, you, know we've, we've, had, a, couple, routine examinations, and, and, you, know, we're, uh we've, come, out, squeaky, clean, and, but that's, kind, of, the, extent, to, which, i ever, really, wanted, to, spend, time, with regulators but, i, recognize, after, we, enter, this

space, that, if, we, are, going, to uh, if, we, are, going, to, really uh, be, the, best, firm, we, can, be, for, our clients, and, have, a, positive, impact, on the, industry, and, i, think, there's, a national, interest, element, to, this, as well, i, felt, that, we, were, you, know, really under, armed, from, a, regulatory perspective, just, because, having, spent, my whole, career, not, really, wanting, to, spend time, with, them, entering, a, space, that where, that's, such, a, big, driver, i, felt like, we, really, needed, to, have, the, right uh, and, certainly, advisors, and, so, i actually, just, picked, up, the, wall, street journal, i, saw, an, article, that, he'd, left the, sec, the, day, before, and, i, just, cold called, them, and, said, i'd, love, to, chat and, uh uh

um, he, said, let's, get, to, get, you, know let's, let's, get, together, uh, i, you, know, i think, he, uh and, then, and, then, we, you, know, we, had, a number, of, of, uh, of, lunches, uh, over, the the, next, few, months, and and, uh, you, know, before, he, agreed, to, do this, i, think, he, just, wanted, to, get whatever, we, both, want, to, get, to, know, one another, and what, was, evident, right, out, of, the, gate is, that he, and, i, the, thing, that, we, share more, than, anything, is, the, belief, that, in order, to uh, in, order, to, continue, to have, the, leading, financial, services sector, in, the, world, the, u.s, has, to, get the, regulatory, foundation, for, this transition, from, legacy, finance, to

digital, finance, has, to, get, that, right that's, right, so so you, know, they're, there, look, there, are, a couple, approaches, to, this, i, think, some of, the, purest, and, and, i, i, have, a lot, of respect, for, people, that, were, in, this space, really, early, i've, paid, attention to, it, my, whole, career, or, my, you, know throughout, the, the, life, of, you, know bitcoin, onward, but i, think, that, there's, a, there's, an element, of, people, who, think, that, this, is the, system, that, is, there, to, be, able to, build, something, brand, new, after, the old, system, crashes, and, burns, and, at, one level, they're, right, it, could, but, i, don't think, the, old, system, is, going, to, crash and, burn, i, think, what's, that, and certainly, that's, just, not, the, approach we're, taking, th, this, is, i, think, what we're, building, now

and, what, you, guys, are, you, know, what, you guys, are, building, and, what, your, whole world, is is, seeing, is, an, opportunity, to, rebuild, a better, financial, system, but, i, i, think it's, going, to, be, built, upon, and, will displace, the, legacy, players, and, systems in, ways, that, contribute, to healthier, society much, more, efficient, financial, system, etc and, that, i, believe, that, that, has, to happen, by, working, with, regulators, which is, not, to, say, never, pressing, regulators it's, just, to, say, to, to, kind, of coordinate, cooperate, so that's, kind, of, how, that, all, that, all went, down, and, and and, then, and, so, that's jay, and, uh, and, then, courtney, ellwood, uh she, said, she, was, the, general, counsel, for the, cia

and, uh, i, think, her, you, know, her, position she's, not, a, um an, investor, like, alan, howard, and, she wasn't, a, regulator, uh, like, jay she, looks, at, this, from, the, national security, uh, perspective, and, as, do, i, by the, way, as, a, macro, guy and, one, of the, most, interesting frictions, is, the, one, between, the, us, and china, right, now, and we'll, probably, talk, about, central, bank digital, currency, but, you, know, there there, is, a, concerted, effort, to, try, to unseat, the, u.s, dollar, as, the, global reserve, currency, and, i, think, that, that would, not, be, in, the, us's, best, interest nor, our, allies and, they're, all, you, know, they're, all sorts, of, other um

kind, of, adjacent, tensions, between, those countries, but, i, think, from, courtney's perspective, i, i, always, hate, putting words, in, people's, mouths, but, i, think, she shares, the, view, that, getting, all, of, this right, is, in, the, u.s, national, uh, interest and, uh, and, and, so, so, we, all, share, you know, i, mean, she, recognizes, that, that's probably, also, a, good, investment opportunity, for, people, involved, because that's, obvious, but, that's, not, a, driver for, her eric, i, think, we, need, to, unpack, what, it means, to, get, all, of, this, right, and, in some, of, your, writing, that, both, ryan, and i, really, truly, enjoyed, you, called this, decade, one, of, the, most, uncertain decades, of, our, lifetimes, and, so, you, are betting, that, we, are, going, into, this

major, transition, not, just, for, you, know uh, investing, but, just, for, how, the, world works this, isn't, some, like, new, social, media platform, this, isn't, some, disruptive fintech, company, this, is, uh, this, is, what you, are, calling, a, quantum, change, uh which, i, think, maybe, uh, if, it, were, my words, we, would, be, calling, this, a paradigm, shift, this, is, a, new, paradigm and, so, can, you, just, unpack, and, elaborate on, what, you, mean, by, a, quantum, change, and why, you, think, it, this, change, that, is happening, is, uh, of, the, magnitude, that that, you, think, it, is sure um, i'll, we'll, let's, go, with, the, the, kind of, abbreviated, version, because, we, could spend

you, know, time, where, your, listeners, would would, certainly, fall, asleep, uh, but, i don't, know, we're, pretty, into, quantum change, but, but, yeah well, look, we'll, try, we'll, try, the, short version, if, you, want, to, if, you, want, to dig, in, any, deeper, so let's, let's, take, digital, crypto, let's take, all, of, that, let's, take, blockchain just, out, of, the, picture, entirely, for, a moment, so so, i, started, my, career, in, 89 and we, have uh, from, apa, from, a, global, policy, uh standpoint, we, have, been, pursuing a, um, a, consistent, policy through, that, entire, period, of, time, and that, policy, has, been more, or, less, driven, by

central, bankers, and and, so, we, came, you, know, when, i, started my, career inflation, was, pretty, high, this, wasn't 1970s, high, but, still, by, today's standards, well, sorry by, today's, stamps, we're, back, to, those levels, but like, roll, the, clock, back, a, year, um, by those, standards, and, by, the, standards, the last, couple, decades, inflation, was, high bond, yields, were, high, et, cetera, and and starting, with, greenspan, uh, a, policy, was really, introduced, to, a, kind, of, every economic, hiccup um the the, federal, reserve would, lower, interest, rates, in, a, material way kind, of, never, ratchet, them, back, up, to the, the, starting, levels, as, the, cycle progressed, and, so, and, and, kind, of

inflation, came, down, interest, rates, came down, the, big the, really, big, macro, trends, were increased, globalization, and deepening, kind, of, technology, technology deepening, throughout, our, whole, society and, by, the, way, you, couldn't, even, you couldn't, even, have, globalization, at scale, without, that, technology, so, all these, things, played played, in, to, one, another, um, and amplified, the, impacts, and, what, that, led to, was, it, led, to, this this, period, of, kind, of large, income, inequality, as, i, said, lower inflation, lower, interest, rates, very, high overall, debt, levels, and, leverage, right because, you, could, just, hold, more, debt, if

interest, rates, were, low, inflation, was very, stable, and, it, was, it, was, kind, of this these, big, macro, forces, were, pressing, us to, a, point, where, that, monetary, policy which, was, really, monolithic uh had, run, out, of, it, you, know, it, it, was, no longer, as, effective, as, it, had, been, from a, much, higher, starting, point, of, higher interest, rates, is, this, eric, like, the morphine, drip, kind, of, effect, where, like patient, gets, a, shot, of, morphine, and, then another, one, and, then, another, one, but, but it, gradually, is, less, and, less, effective until, basically, you, know, patient, no longer, feels, the, effect, of, morphine, yeah it, it, it's, yeah, it's, like, that, i, mean it's, it's, a, little, bit, more, mathematical

but, it, i mean, it's, not, the, wrong, analogy and, the, only, thing, that, i, would, say, with that, type, of, analogy, is, i, think, that there, are, a, whole, group, of, people, that look, at, that, kind, of, policy, and, just, say it, was, just, morally, bankrupt, or, you, know it's, terrible, and, when, you, start, talking about, morphine, you're i, don't, know, it, has, certain, connotations i, think, that, what, we, witnessed, was, we saw, a, real, leveraging, of, the, of, the, us financial, system and, it, was, a, policy, that, wasn't, it wasn't, a, dumb, policy, it, just, but, it, had a, natural, end, point, by, the, way, if, you look, historically, through, economic, and market, cycles, going, back, hundreds, and hundreds, of, years there, are, cycles, right, so, and, cycles play, out, because, these, dynamics, happen because, it, you, know, naturally, societies

want, to, take, on, more, debt, because, what does, debt, do, it, kind, of, pulls, demand from, the, future, to, the, present, it, all feels, good, like, there, are, a, lot, of things, that, conspire to push, society you, know, into, these, cycles, and, it, wasn't all, the, fed's, fault, it's, like, a, lot, of things, work, together, but, the, fed, was, the dominant, driver, of, these, policies, and because the the, dollar, is, the, global, reserve currency every, other, central, bank, in, the, world more, or, less, certainly, of, the, developed countries, more, or, less, had, to, follow, the fed's, policy, because, otherwise, if, they diverge, from, it, their, currency, would, get really, strong and, their, exporters, would, go, out, of business, and, they, would, scream, at, the politicians, and, the, politicians, would pressure, the, central, bank, and, so, you

ended, up, happening, after, 30, years, of this this, policy, you, ended, up, with, central banks, whose, tool, kit, no, longer, really worked, and, you, had, the, whole, globe, on the, same, system, okay, all, these, guys, went to, the, same, schools, they, all, read, the same, books, they, all, you, know, went, and begged, the, nobel, group, for, their, you know, their, prize, and, economic, they're all, like, they, all, thought, this, is, being unfair, but, you, know, they, they, all, more or, less, had, the, same, paradigm, and, or, the same, kind, of mental, model, in, terms, of, how, to, think about, monetary, policy, right, and, so, all of, that drew, us, into, this, um, or, drew, us, into this, point, where

we, had, the, longest, economic cycle, in, the, u.s, and, the, longest, bull market, up, until, the, pandemic, hit and, for, the, preceding, two, years every, central, banker, in, the, world, was crying, out, for, politicians, to, start spending, money, because, they, said, listen our, tools, they're, never, going, to, say they, don't, work, because, that, would, spark a, panic, they, kept, saying, our, tools, don't work, as, well, as, we, would, like, them, to you, have, to, start, spending, money, but politicians, couldn't, really, spend, money because, everyone, was, kind, of, stuck, in this, quasi-austerity, mindset, all, right pandemic, hit, and, that, was, the, most remarkable, catalyst, imaginable to, just, get, politicians, to, say, throw, out all, those, old, rules, everything, that we've, been, preaching, because, we, now, have

this, global, pandemic, and, we, need, to, save the, world, and, we, need, to, do, that, with huge, fiscal, spending, not, i, don't, know what, i, would, have, done, if, i, were, in, that spot, but, i, probably, wouldn't, have, been hiking, rates, and, you, know, cutting budgets, so, it's, they, i, think the, the, actions, were, rational, right, but what, that, did, is, that, that shifted, us, from a, world, of, this, monolithic, central, bank policy so, i, i, would, call, that, policy homogeneity, so, the, whole, world, was driven, by, a, group, of, people, making decisions, that, had, the, same, mental, model more, or, less, and, it, shifted, us, in, this world, where the, central, bankers, don't, control, what governments, spend, politicians, decide

that, and, so, if, you, look, at, it, if, you, if we, grabbed, a, group, of, 50 um, politicians, from, across, the, world, and 50, central, bankers other, than, their, accents, the, central bankers, would, be, almost indistinguishable probably, the, same, age, they, went, to, the same, schools, or, you, know, the, equivalent in, their, countries, etc, you, took, the, 50 politicians, or, 100, be, wildly, different okay, even, in, the, u.s, like, donald, trump's fiscal, policy, is, different, from, joe biden's, okay, if, it, hadn't, been, if, it, had been, bernie, sanders, instead, of, joe, biden it, would, also, be, different, the, point, is that that, policy, becomes, very, very heterogeneous, when, you, shift, away, from, a group, of, central, bankers, to, control everything, to, a, group, of, politicians across, the, world, interacting, with, their

own, political, systems, interacting, with their, central, banks, so, that, that, change alone, would, be, the, biggest uh, we'll, we'll, use, yours, dave, paradigm shift, instead, of, that, would, be, the biggest, paradigm, shift, that, we, have, seen since certainly, since, the, late, 70s, into, into volcker, in, the, in, the, 1980s, okay, okay can, you, break, down, why, so, so, i, get, so there's, no, contrarians, among, central bankers, they're, all, doing, the, exact, same thing, right, politicians, they, have, all, of these, contrarian, ideas, but, why, is, this move, from, sort, of, monetary, policy, money printing, let's, call, it, to, fiscal, policy money, printing, why, is, this, such, a quantum, change, and, such, a, departure, from what, we've, seen

over, the, past, 30, years, isn't, it, both still, kind, of, you, know, money, printing, uh dollar, supply, go, up it's, a, really, good, question, and, and, here is, the, simple, answer, to, that, is, that maybe, a, multi-part, answer, the, simple answer, is, that the the, paradigm, that, we, were, in was, one, where, there, was, a, lot, of, money printing but, the, velocity, there, was, a, lot, of money, printing, there, was, a, lot, of, debt accumulation, but, the, velocity, of, that money, that, was, being, created as, more, money, was, being, created, the velocity, was, declining, and, so what, happened, was, you, ended, up, with, a lot, of, liquidity, in, the, system, that

wasn't, actually, moving, through, the system, very, fast, where, it, was, f, where, it was, finding, a, home, was, in, asset, prices and, so so that, policy, wasn't, really, lifting, real economic, growth, so, you, saw, in, spite, of all, that, qe you, saw, inflation, become, very, low, and stable, economic, growth, became, became very, modest, and, relatively, stable and, asset, prices, were, the, things financial, asset, prices, were, the, things that, were, going, up what, happens, when, you, you, say, actually we're, going, to, start, spending, money, is that that, shifts, the, whole, equation, because you, go, and, instead, of, just, a, bunch, of you, know, a, bunch, of, 65, year, old, center bankers, saying, we're, just, going, to, print

more, money, and, buy, more, bonds, and, then, a bunch, of, 65, year, old, baby, boomers, go well, you, just, paid, more, for, my, bonds than, i, thought, they, were, worth, and, now that, i, don't, own, those, bonds, anymore, i'm going, to, go, buy, some, stocks all, that's, happening, with, a, bunch, of 65, year, old, people, right, all, of a, sudden you, go, no, here's, what, we're, going, to, do now, we're, going, to, we're, going, to, keep doing, all, that, bond, buying, all, that money, printing, but, we're, going, to, have the, the, largest, economy, in, the, world, the us, economy borrow, 15, of, gdp, for, two, years, running and, we're, gonna, start, spending, that money, we're, going, to, give, it, to, people we're, we're, not, just, giving, it, to, the, 65 year, old, people, who, have, an, equity portfolio, they, represent, the, top, one percent, of, wealth, in, the, country, we're

giving, it, to, everyone, okay, and, so, that that, we, haven't, even, begun, to, see, the consequences, of, that, well, sorry, we've just, only, now, started, to, see, the consequences, of, how, dramatic, a, shift that, is, that's, something, that, was, just inconceivable, um, even, a, couple, years, ago i, mean, just, completely, inconceivable that, we, would, do, something, like, that, by the, way, we, had, we, had, expected, a, move toward, this, fiscal, monetary, coordination if, you'd, asked, me, and, we, were, positioned for, it, which, is, great, for, our, investors if, you'd, asked, me what, are, the, probability, pre-pandemic, of seeing, two, years, of, 15 budget, deficits, out, of, the, u.s, fully

funded, by, the, fed, i, would, i, would, have said, in, the, in, the, absence, of, a, of, a world, war, by, a, one, percent, probability oh, wow that's, what's, happening, yeah, and, that's what, okay, okay, okay, so, um let's, talk, about, this, this, i, guess paradigm, shift, because, like, i, like, the point, that, you, made, earlier, i, mean, we can, get, out, of, the, habit, sometimes crypto, and, other, people, have, the, habit of, kind, of, moralizing, these, things, right maybe, the, morphine, drip, has, some moralizing, connotation, like, yeah, don't keep, giving, the, patient, morphine, that sort, of, thing, but, i, think, your, broader point, as, an, investor, is, just, like, hey this, is, just, cycles, this, is, the, flywheel if, you, were, a individual, in, that, system, what, decisions would, you, have, made, probably, the, same decisions, and, now, we, have, this, massive

wealth, inequality, and, you, know, in, the u.s, people, are, like, hey, you, know, the, one percent, got, their, cut, of, this, thing through, asset, play, price, increase, over the, past, 10, years, where's, my, cut, right where's, universal, basic, income, for instance, where's, the, distribution, how can, we, get, uh, minimum, wage, to, increase and, so, a, portion, of, that, is, now, going, to to, labor, so, and, you, understand, why, the cycle, plays, this, way, right, like, if you're individual, in, the, wheel, you, probably make, some, of these, same, decisions, but let's, talk, with, as, as, investors, so, what are, the, implications, of, this, is, this basically, is, what, you're, saying, maybe, we don't, know, all, the, implications, but, is one, of, the, things, that, you're, saying that, we're, about, to, see, massive, cpi

consumer, price, index, type, inflation, over the, next, 10, years, or, what, are, the, sorts of, shifts, that, we, should, expect, given this, monetary, to, fiscal, policy, uh, regime change so the, first, thing, i, would, say, is, that if, it, were, only, that, regime, change, or that, paradigm, shift that, that, were, affecting, us, it, would, it would, be, the, biggest, one, that, we've, seen uh certainly, in, my, career spending, over, 30, years, but, it's, not because everything, i, just, said, is, happening, with the, backdrop, of, blockchain, technology on, the, cusp, of, rewiring, the, global

financial, system and, spinning, out, of, that project, are, a, variety, of, assets cryptocurrencies that uh you, know, or, various, tokens, that i, think, represent fundamental, change, in, in, probably, how the, whole, world, operates that, will, take, decades, to, manifest, but in, the, here, and, now, it's, affecting financial, markets, and, investment opportunities, etc, so, so, the, first, thing i, would, say, is, that that, you, you, have, these these, enormous, potentials, for, change that, are, kind, of colliding, in, a, super, interesting, way

um and, and, so, the, outcome, of, that is it's, highly, uncertain, which, because because, it's, not, going, to, happen, in, a totally, free, market, it's, not, you, know you're, seeing, like, just, look, at, what china's, done, right, i, mean, you're, going to, have you, basically, have this this, paradigm, shift, from, monetary, fiscal policy, that's, going, to, change, the, way that, the, economy, operates, it's, going, to change, inflation, it, will, lead, to, higher inflation, and, much, higher inflation, volatility, so, we've, come, off of, a, couple, decades, where, inflation volatility, has, been, extremely, low, and stable that, will, start, moving, around, a, lot, that doesn't, mean, inflation, just, goes

straight, up, okay, could, but, i, i, think it's, more, likely, that, we, see, a, lot, more inflation, volatility but, it's, going, to, lead, to, some, really wild, moves, in, markets, we're, starting, to see, that, already, it'll, it'll, lead, to things, that, we, haven't, that, will, be, very confusing, to, people, in, markets, an example, of, that, will, be, that that that, i, think, is, is, really, interesting, is that, gold, hasn't, participated, in, this whole, move, in, inflation and, and, yet, look, at, what, digital, assets have, done, they've, gone, you, know, they've gone, bananas, right, so so, a, lot, of, things, will, will, change, in markets, but, i, think, to, to for, me, as, a, macro, investor, to

to, wrap, my, arms, around, something, that i, know, i, can't, fully, understand, and anyone, who, ever, claims, to, is is, either, megalomaniac, or, just, lying but, what, you, can, try, to, do, is i, think, understand, what, are, the, biggest most, important, things, that, are, happening and, then, kind, of, understand, how, they interact, and, then, stay, mentally, flexible around, well, what, are, some, of, the, things that, those, could, mean, and, then, then you're, supposed, to, kind, of, look, at markets, and, say, well, what, are, markets telling, you, some, of, this, stuff, means and, that, you, know, and, then, i, ideally invest, alongside, those, trends, as, they emerge, you, know, super, interesting, to, me it's, like, some, of, the, stuff, you, set, up you, know, reflects, other, macro, thinkers like, ray, dalio, comes, to, mind, for

instance, and, so, interesting, when, i, read ray, dalio, he's, like, he, gets, um, the diagnosis, right but, then, the, cure, he, says, he's, like, go buy, this, you, know, shiny, metal, object, and it's, more, complicated, than, that, but, like he's, a, big, advocate, of, gold, and, not, yet digital, assets, which, is, somewhat interesting, right, in, this, kind, of scenario, and, so, it, appears, to, me, you're not, just, betting, on, this, monetary, regime change, that's, not, the, only, quantum change, that, you, see, you, see, that, but then, you, also, see, this, whole, advancing technology, and, i, think, in, your, quantum change, letter, you, call, this, like, almost betting, on, decentralization, and decentralized, power, you, make, the, point that, some, will, try, to, subvert, this, like in, co-op, this maybe, china, but, you, make, the, other, point

that, for, others, that, kind, of, embrace, and open, their, arms, to, this, maybe, the, west is, an, example, of, that, that, story, is, yet to, be, written, we'll, see, i, hope, so but, for, others, you, said, such, a, path holds, the, potential, to, produce, another renaissance, another, renaissance, is, what you, see, so, talk, about, that, in, a, little more, detail, so, what, is, it, about, this decentralized, technology that, comes, into, play, in, in, um, in blockchain, and, crypto that, could, bring, about, this, second renaissance, and, you, know, how, does, an investor, position, themselves, to capitalize, on, that yeah, um that, sounds, like, a, like, a, big, bold statement, i, but, i, i, entirely i, don't, think, it's, an, exaggeration, at

all, i, think, that the the, power, of, these, technologies hold, the, potential, to, lead, to, dystopia or, renaissance, and, i, think, when, you, look at, what, china, is, doing i, think, what look, they're, the, first, ones, to, develop the, the, cbdc, um, really, i, mean, there, are a, couple, other, countries, that, took, it, a bit, more, seriously, early, on, like switzerland, and, canada, and um but, you, know, the, u.s, has, been, late, right but the, well, if, you, ask, yourself, why, did china, do, that, it's, because, they, looked at, that, technologies, that, oh, my, god, this is, seriously, powerful, stuff, right, and, so

if, we, could, take, this, and, we, could, we could, impose, this, on, our, popul, on, our subjects, which, is, i, think, how, they they think, about, it uh then we, get, to, see, every, single, transaction throughout, the, economy, i, it, i, mean, it, it extends, the, arm, of, their, control, over their, population, in, ways, that are that, would, have, been, unimaginable, even, a decade, ago, and, so, they, saw, it, and, so, you kind, of, get, you, know, they've, showed their, hand, in, terms, of, how, they've chosen, to, implement, it, and, i'm, not saying, just, because, a, central, bank issues, a, central, bank, digital, currency that, that, they're

they're, doing, it, because, they, want, to dominate, their, citizenry, there, are, other reasons, for, their, other, efficiency reasons, for, doing, it, it's, just, my, the point, that, i'm, making, with, china, is, that i, think, that, the, reason, that, the, the dominant, reason, that, they're, doing, it is because, it, gives, them, unparalleled uh, insight, and, control, over their, citizenry, and, i, think, to, the extent, that, they, can, export, that i, think, they'll, fail, at, this, by, the, way but, to, the, extent, that, they, can, export that globally, i, think, they, think, it, gives them, the, ability, to maybe, unseat, the, us, dollar, as, the, the global, reserve, currency, so, that's, kind of, the, the, the, kind, of, the, dark, path, of these, technologies, is, that, in, a, world

that, becomes, increasingly, digitalized, in our, lives, that, become, increasingly digitalized that these, technologies, give, the, state, a, lot more, power, potentially, the, the, path toward, renaissance, is, i, think consistent, with, uh with, the development, of, bitcoin and, and, that, technology, which, is, that look there's, a, way there's, a, way using, the, technologies, that, we, now, have and, the, the, system the, cloud, that, connects, 7.9, billion people, on, the, planet, um, if, you, take firewalls, and, everything, out, there's, a system, that, allows, people, for, the, first time, in, human, history

to, connect, with, one, another trust, one, another, even, if, they, don't like, one, another, they, speak, different language, they're there, there's, a, way, to to, have, trust, between, people that is, completely, decentralized, and, if, you think i, think, that, that, is, the, most, important thing, to, think, about, when, you, consider an, investment, thesis, for, the, long, haul forget, about, trading, opportunities we, have i, think, it's, hard, to understate, how, important, that, is, because if, you, if, you, just, go, for, a, go, for, a half, an, hour, walk, or, an, hour, walk, and think, about, everything, that's, touched your, life, whether, it's a, company, that, you've, shopped, at, or

worked, at, or, a, church, or, a, synagogue, or any, kind, of, religion, that, you've, been part, of, or, the, government, system, that controls, your, town, your, country the you, know, international, networks, of, the un, or, imf there, literally, is i, would, challenge, you, to, think, of anything, that, isn't, material, in, your life, that, has that you, know, even, your, family, structure, like there's, nothing, that, isn't, centralized in, some, way, in, terms, of, kind, of, control and, power, and, it, it's, like, the, sky, is blue, and, that's, just, the, way, the, world works, right, but, what, just, happened, is for, the, first, time, in, human, history, at scale something, just, popped, up, that, said actually, it, doesn't, have, to, work, that way, really, just, doesn't, have, to, work

that, way, now it, it's, natural, that, that, realization, is going, to, take, decades, to, manifest, fully but, and, you, guys, talk, to, a lot, more, of these, people, than, i, do, and, you, guys probably, are, these, people, but, you probably, look, at, well, i, know, you, are because, i, i, i, listen, to, your, piece, on, um on, uh uh, eath, and, the, metaverse, like, we, are, we are, moving, to, a, world, which, is which, is, will, become, more, or, less, fully digitalized, and i, don't, know, like, what's, the, what's, the place, for, the, traditional, nation, state in, that, world, the, qu, the, answer, is, i have, no, idea, all, i'm, saying, is, that these, technologies, for, the, first, time, in a, real, way, open, up, the, possibility, that

we, can, ask, that, question, and, deliver, a solution, okay, so, that's, like, big, big picture, where, we, are, in, 50, years, i, think we'll, look, back, at, this and, we'll, say we'll, say, that, this, was as, important, as, the, invention, of, a computer, um, maybe, more, in, terms, of, how society, is structured, and, operates, but, in, the, more immediate, term it, it that, kind, of, recognition, that, this, is that, important, and, and its, implementation in, society, and, kind, of, how, does, like, i'm i'm, more, focused, on, how, it, takes, over wall, street, and, the, financial, system, and i, want, to, play, a, part, in, that, and, we're building, out, a, firm, to, take, a, very

pos, to, have, a, very, positive, impact, on leading, to much, more, efficient, financial, system inclusive, opportunities, for, people, all those, good, things, right, but, they're what, these, technologies, do, is, they connect, people, and, they, take, they, slash the, middlemen, out, so, when, you, talk, about or, when, i, talk, about, a, renaissance it, it's, like, what, did, the, renaissance, do okay, and, and, someone, who's, around, who teaches, the, phd, program, at, harvard, would probably, argue, with, me, about, this, and that's, fine, but, the, renaissance you, know, the, we, just, had, the, dark, ages and, you, you, built, up, this, kind, of culture where where, wealthy, patrons, would, give promising, artists, money, to, kind, of, do

whatever, the, hell, they, wanted, to, do, and some, of, them, wrote, books, and, some, of them painted, beautiful, pictures, etc and, some, of, them, thought, about, all, kinds of, new, scientific, innovations and, that, was, incredible, because, you, just started, funding, people, right, we, now, have systems, that, have, taken, out, the, art dealer, they've, taken, out, the, the, music company, they've, they've, connected literally, 7.9, billion, people, around, the planet, have, the, potential, no, matter, what country, they're, in, to, do, something, and connect, to, capital, and, get, funded, to, do something, that, they're, most, passionate about, and, their, aptitude, is, highest, to do, without, having, to, get, a, work, permit and, do, this, and, do, that, i, don't, know what, that, leads, to, but, i'll, tell, you, if it, doesn't, get, regulated, away

i, i, think, you, would, be, short kind, of human, innovation short, the, almost, the, human, condition, you would, be, sh, you, would, be, sure to, bet, against, that, i, think, is, it's, a terrible, bet, to, make, um, but, i, don't, know exactly, what, that, will, lead, to, i, think we're, seeing, glimpses, of, it, in, the, nft market, but, that's, like literally, just, scratching, the, surface, oh my, god, like, we, couldn't, agree, more, with that, obviously, it's, like, do, you, want, to be, on, the, other, side, you, want, to, short the, renaissance, do, you, want, to, short human, ingenuity, like, bad, move, especially when, we're, moving, to, the, digital, area, by the, way, um, have, you, listened, to, our podcast, this, is, with, a, phd, professor, uh josh, rosenthal, it's, called, uh, the, crypto

renaissance um one, of, our, favorite, podcasts, eric, we're gonna send, it, to, you it's, like, editor's, choice let's, move, on, i, think, david's, got another, question, yeah, so, i, mean, as, ryan said, we, are, completely, in, line, with, this whole, renaissance, future, that, that, we think, crypto, brings, uh, and they're, in, this, future, that, we, think inevitably, comes, and, we, encourage, all bankless, listeners, to, undergo, this revolution, and, have, this, revolution happen, to, you, but, there's, a, lot, there's a, lot, of, people, in, this, world, where they're, not, going, to, undergo, this revolution, and, in, fact, change, really really, scares, them and, on, theme, with, i, think, uh, a, lot, of other, things, that, we've, seen, in, 2020, and 2021, the, world, just, seems, to, be, overall

extremely, polarized, the, difference between, the, one, percent, and, the, 99, is huge, the, difference, between, the, left, and the, right, is, huge, the, difference, between cbdc's, and, true, cryptocurrencies, is massive, the, difference, between generations, is, also, massive, so, there's, a lot, of, people, out, there, that, this, whole renaissance, thing, which, we, think, is extremely, optimistic, and, bullish, on humanity, actually, causes, a, lot, of, the incumbencies, of, the, world, to miss, out, on, on, this, future, so, eric, can you, talk, about, the, obstacles, that, you see, ahead, of, us, for, all, these, people, of the, world, that, really, are, not incentivized, to, see, this, renaissance occur yeah, the for, starters

i, encourage uh, i, encourage, everyone, at, our, firm and, i, encourage, our, clients, and, i encourage, you, guys and, you, probably, do, look, at, it, this, way but, i, encourage, you, to, think, about, the the, resistance, as, the, opportunity right, so if so, we, just, did, a, financing, round recently, and uh and, the, investors, and, it, included coinbase, goldman, sachs, liberty, mutual insurance so kind, of, like, we, do, with, all, of, our business, we're, looking, to, bring the, smartest, best, people, and thoughtful, firms, together to, help, help, us, hopefully, lead, this institutionalization, of, of, these, assets

and, and, so, it's, natural, that, we're, going to, get, some, of, the the, kind, of, ones, who have, put, a, lot, of, work, into, this, space but, they, may, not, be, ready, to, fully embrace, it, because, of, regulations, or whatever, they, you, know, they, they, may prefer, to, do, it uh with, a, thoughtful, partner, that, they trust um, but if, they, could, all, do, it, right, now, or they're, all, comfortable, doing, it, right now the, three, of, us, i, mean, i, love, you, guys but, you, probably, wouldn't, want, to, talk to, me, because, i, wouldn't, be, involved, i would, have, no, no, business, position, in this, space, right, because the, big, incumbents, would, have, would, have capitalized, on, that, opportunity, coinbase wouldn't, exist if, the, legacy, financial, institutions were, willing, to, take, the, risk, that, that

those, guys, took, and, wasn't, even, that long, ago, and, look, at, the, value, that, that they've, created, i, you, know, their, market caps, are, 65, billion, dollars, right, now right, and um and, i, think, it's, going, to, go, much, my, you know, my, guess, is my, guess, is, they're just, beginning, uh, because, and, they, have such, a, head, start, over, the, legacy, group so, i, wouldn't, get, hung, up, with, how, are the, legacy firms, going, to you, know, why, aren't, they, joining, or, why aren't, it's, not, joining, why, aren't, they embracing, opportunities, in, this, space, in some, cases, they, can't, because, the regulatory, environment, doesn't, really allow, them, to, in, other, cases, maybe, they could, but, the, risk, reward, just, isn't high, enough

relative, to, what, their, perceived opportunity, is, and, i, think, they, just misjudged, that but, it, doesn't, matter, because, we actually, we, really, are, a, better, country and, a, better, economy, to, just, have creative, destruction define, the, future, because it's, inevitable, that, the, legacy, players that, have, structured, their, tax, policy they've, structured, by, their, lobbyists you, know, certain regulatory, moats, around, their, businesses and, protections, it's, natural, that, they don't, really, want, having, invested, so much, in, that, there, are, very, few people, who, are, willing, to, just, kind, of tear, down, what, they've, built, to, because there's, a, new, opportunity, so, this, whole process, just, a, very, natural, process

i, think, it's, i, think, it's, phenomenal it's, exciting, uh, but, i, you, know, i wouldn't, like, there's, no, lost, sleep, over why, aren't, these, guys, uh, getting involved, i, think, what, happens, is the, the, companies, not, getting, involved will, lead, to, much, more, innovative, people look, i'm, 55, years, old, i, you, guys, are, i don't, know, you're, a, lot, younger, than, i am, and, you, you, guys, are, probably, you're probably, talking, to, people, who, are younger, than, you, are, and there's, something, so, powerful, for society, to, have, really, young, people, who aren't, as, jaded, as, guys, like, me and, have, you, know, great, fresh, ideas, be the, ones, to, deploy, capital, and, they're going, to, waste, a, lot, of, it, and, that's fine, there's, there's

an, abundance, of, capital, in, the, world right, now, and, there, are, not, enough, good ideas, and, not, enough, people, who, can execute, and, so, all, these, changes, are going, to, happen, and, then, then, the, other thing, is, that, they're, all, these, older investors, who, are, scared, of, these, assets and, that's, why, that's, probably, why, gold is, not, going, anywhere, because, all, the old, people, own, it, and, the, young, people are, going, why, would, you, ever, want, to, own gold, why, why, if, we're, moving, to, a digital, world, why, wouldn't, you you, know, why, wouldn't, you, own, a, native digital, asset, that, like, it, just, doesn't make, any, sense, why, you, would, own, gold and, and, so, there'll, be, a, lot, of confusing, things, that, happen, in, this world, and, you, know, that, that's, what's unfolding, now, that, i, see, you, you, know one, one, of, these, uh, dividing, areas, that

you, you, you, mentioned, in, one, of, your recent, i, think, weekly, letters, is, um, the young, versus, the, old, the, generational stresses, in, fact, you, call, this, one, of the you, know, uh the, many, lines, that, divide, or, fractured fractured, world, we, call, this, the, darkest is, the, separation, of, young, versus, old i, wonder, if, you, could, talk, about, that from, a, macro, perspective, because, i, know you, look, at, the, macro, and, these, kind, of generational, changes, um, do, you, feel, like the, current, system that, we, have favors, let's, say, the, older, generations let's, say, baby, boomers, at, the, expense, of the, young, and, what, does, that, mean, and, is crypto kind, of, a, a, result, of, some, of, that like, pushback, and, some, restoration, of

the, balance, can, you, talk, about, that, yeah so there, are, a, lot, of, lines, that, divide society, there's there's, rich, poor big, ones, are, rich, versus, poor, young versus, old, educated, versus, non-educated and, they're, intersections, of, some, of those, lines, too, um, but, if, you, think about, what what, uh yeah, and, you, guys, have, done, a, lot, of work, on what, is, a, nation, state, what, does, it, even mean, and, but, if, you, think, about if, you, think, about, at, the, macro, level like what, are, different, economic, philosophies try, to, do and, what, they, they, try, to, whether, that's free, market, capitalism

whether, it's, socialism, whether, it's communism, and, there'll, be, others, like china, is, attempting, something, it's, kind of, a, hybrid, i, think, but, if, you, look, at what, what, do, they, try, to, do, they, try, to create the, greatest, pos, in, in, its, p, in, their pure, sense, they, try, to, create, the greatest, possible, prosperity society-wide, and, then, they, try, to figure, out, how, to, distribute, the, spoils of, that, economic, output, in, a, way that, is, sufficiently, fair, to, create, the incentive, structures, to, kind, of, prevent an, upheaval, and, create, the, incentive structures, that, that, propel, the, system forward and, and, so, that's, if, that's, in, their purest, sense, what, they're, trying, to, do and, they, they, each, have, different answers, for, that, right, and, there, were

plenty, of people, that, thought, communism would, do, a, better, job, than, free, market capitalism, and, and, i, think, that, they were, kind, of, wrong, um but, we, we, probably, and, we, probably, have become, overly, confident, about the, ability, of, free, market, capitalism just, be, the, winning, solution, there's probably, some, balance, like, anything anyhow, um if, you, if, you, think, about, what, societies are, supposed, to, do, they're, trying, to find, those, optimal, points, but, but, then when, you, go, into, practice, they're obviously, are, all, then, we, have, a, lot, of humans, who, you, know, some, of, whom, are greedy, and, some, of, whom, are, scared, and some, of whom, are, you, know, have, different drivers, that, motivate, them, and, and, so you, end, up, with

with, flawed, versions, of, those, systems and, oftentimes, they, they, trend, towards, a lot, of, uh, um, corruption, right, without good, check, and, balance, and, so i, think, in, in, the, case, of, the, us um, we quite, clearly, have, a, system where, there, there's, a, lot, of, inequality between, rich, and, poor and it's, not, that, any, individual, has necessarily, been, corrupt, but, when, you have, a, lot, of, wealthy, people that, are, protecting, their, interests, and they, think, that, they're, protecting, their industry, and, they, you, know, have, their lobbyists, they, do, all, these, things, in, in aggregate, it, just unless, you, kind, of, rebalance, that, system money, tends, to, just, go, to, the, the

winners, and, and, unless, you, rebalance, it and, then i, think, what, happened with, the, old, versus young, in, this is, you, know, we, had, the, greatest, and, by the, way, i it's, unfair, my, parents, are, baby, boomers it's, like, i, feel, bad, i, love, baby, boomers i, know, i, hear, you, guys, i, hear, you, like the, individual, let's, just, say, we, love individual, baby, boomers, or, parents, or baby, boomers, group, there's, a, group, as, a group, yeah, so look, that, you, know, their, parents, fought the, war, they're, the, greatest, generation i, think, they, came, back, and, they, had, a certain, set, of, values, and, then, and, they they, did, whatever, they, did, and, then their, kids, grew, up, and, kind, of embraced, more

uh you, know, they, they, learned, how, to protest, through, the, vietnam, war, they, you know, they, like, had, a, very, different, life experience, and, but, they, really, learned when, they, were, young, they, really, learned how, to, advocate, for, things, they, didn't by, the, way, they, weren't, really, a revolutionary youth, they, didn't, have, the, technology and, the, incumbents, looked, at, them, as, a joke, i, think, they, looked, them, like, okay great, these, guys, are, out, at, concerts they're, smoking, weed, they're, protesting the, war, but, like, they're, not overthrowing, anything, okay, they're, just making, a, lot, of, noise, and, we, got, to, deal with, it, okay, so, fast, forward, a, few decades, they, got, tired, of, protesting that, very, stuff, and, but, they, were, really good, at, organizing, and, protesting, and they, started, advocating, for, themselves

which, is, why, if, you, if, you, look, at, a macro, level, at, kind, of, how, much, society spends, on, old, people, now, well, relative to children, and, education, etc, and, you, kind of, went, back, 30, 40, years, it's, totally distorted, even, if, adjusting, for different, sizes, of, population, so, the, old the, baby, boomers, advocated, brilliantly for, themselves, and, their you, know, more, or, less, relative, largesse in, retirement relative, to, the, young, people, and, so, so now, we, have, this, rich, poor, divide, we've got, the, the, young, old, divide, and, what's so, this, is, just, another, one, of, these paradigm, shifts, what, we, have, now actually, ironically, is, we, have, the, youth that, is, revolutionary, and, it's, through

blockchain, technology, so, unlike unlike go, go, read, a, time, magazine, article, from 1970s, or, you, know, 60s, or, early, 80s, or something, about about, these, people, like, they, had, no, they had, no, real, power, okay, now, look, at people, look, at, some, of, the multi-billionaire guys, who, are, in, their, 20s, and, 30s, right now, who, are, saying, actually, yeah, the, you know, the, protocol, that, i'm, building could, take, down, the, entire, financial system they, actually, have, the, technology they've, got, compute, power, which, is, going parabolic, they've, got, the, entire infrastructure, they, have, the, program ability, and, a, capital, light, business, to do, this, and, they, have, the, intent, and they, have, the, capital, and, they, have, like

all, the, young, people are, rightly, saying, you, know, what, because the, older, people, have, kind, of, screwed, us because, they, own, all, the, assets, we, own nothing i, can't, even, believe, we, have, the opportunity, to, go, invest, in, this, whole thing, that's, gonna, topple, that, whole you, know, kind, of uh, quasi-corrupt um, edifice, that, that, was, built, to, not favor, our, interests, but, favor, all, these old, people, like, we're, just, not, doing, it and, so, what's absolutely incredible, to, me, is, when, you, think, about you, think, about, how, systems, it's, almost like, i've, always, looked, at, the, world, as as, a, super, organism, in, a, way, and, so, we have, this, this, huge, imbalance, created

between, rich, and, poor, old, and, young, etc and, now, all, of, a sudden, this, new technology, it, almost, like, just, magically appears that, can, provide, the, lever, to, rebalance that, system, and, so, i, think, that, is, i really, think, that that, is, what, is, being played, out, here, now, china, is, obviously terrified, of, that, but, i, think, what's, so encouraging, and, incredible, about, the, us and, we've, just, seen, it, recently, which, to me, is, why, these, asset, prices, are, going crazy, now, is, the, u.s, just, said, you, know what you, know, gensler, working, with, uh, because of, course, gensler, has, um, has, uh, you, know he, didn't, do, what, he, did, with, this bitcoin, etf just, in, isolation, he's, talking, to, yellen and, they've, you, know, there's, a, whole

government, approach, and, they're, like okay, you, know, what, we're, not, going, to take, the, china, approach, we're, not, going to, stifle, innovation, we're, going to, let the, market, decide, and, i, think, the, market is, going, to, decide, and, it's, going, to, be this, is, rebel, like, now, we, have, actual revolutionary, conditions, i, don't, mean, in a, way, that, disrupts, society, and, destroys it, i, mean like, very, positive, disruption, this, is the, renaissance, theme, again, but, you, know that, that's, how, i, see, it, playing, out eric, a, quote, that, i, recently, heard, you say, uh, on, a, different, podcast, is, that, um the, fed, is, making, the, bet, that, they, can unburden, the, economy, without, losing people's, faith, in, the, currency, and, this with, regard, to, like, uh, money, printing quantitative, easing, uh, we, can, print money, because, uh, we, need, we, need, to, and

also, they've, made, this, bet, in, the, past and, it's, actually, worked, out, it's, worked out, for, a, number, of, decades, that, they make, the, bet, where, they, can, print, money and, people, won't, lose, faith, in, the currency, yet, now, what's, different, about this, these, choices, being, made, now, is, we have, crypto, we, have, an, alternative, a place, to, exit, and, a, way, to, express our, loss, of, faith, in, the, system, and, as we, have, this, generational, divide, where the, federal, reserves, and, monetary, policy kind, of, just almost, exclusively, favors, the, older generations, we, have, this, younger generational, strife, and, frustration about, a, lack, of, inclusion, and, a, lack, of like, viable, investment, opportunities, in the, legacy, system, and, then, just, like, you

said, almost, at, the, perfect, point, in history, crypto, shows, up, as, this, vehicle that's, outside, of, the, system, that, the older, generations, don't, understand, that is, literally, a, system, built, on, the, fact that, you, don't, have, to, trust, it, you don't, need, to, deposit, faith, because, it's a, a, trustless, based, system, and, it's something, that, is, is, digitally, native right, for, this, um, this, younger generation, to, be, able, to, comprehend, way quicker, than, their, parents, so, my question, to, you, is does, the, mere, existence, of, this opportunity, make, uh, the, bet, that, the federal, reserve, is, making, that, people won't, lose, faith, in, the, currency, simply a, bad, bet uh

that the, the, short, answer, is, um there's, always, a, risk that people, lose, faith, and, fiat and, that, has, been, a, risk, that's, existed throughout, the, history, of, of, of, mankind uh, and even, even, gold-backed, currencies, you know, that, just, it's, like, why, why, do people there's, always, a, risk, that, people abandoned, faith, and, gold, right, there's no, necessary, reason, that, people, had faith, in, gold, but, that's, all, the, way down, yeah, like, that, didn't, happen, right but, that, more, or, less, didn't, happen, i think, it, might, be, it, might, happen, by, the way, um that, people, abandon, faith, and, gold, and kind, of, you're, kind, of, seeing, a, bit, of

that, right, now, doesn't, mean, it, goes, to zero, it, just, means, that, it, might, be really, uninteresting, for, a, long, period of, time, even, in, a, world, of, expanding amounts, of, fiat, um but uh, look, there's, there's, that, risk, to, the dollar, you, know, i, earlier, in, my, career, i um i, don't, know, early, in, my, career i, was, probably, more, apt, to, just, look, at the, dollar, as, something, that, people could, just, lose, faith, in, and, abandon, and then, the, but, kind, of, the, more, you, learn about, how, the, world, operates, and, how, how the, world, looks and, how, you, know, how, systems, work, and what, the, alternatives, are, there, really aren't, very, good, alternatives, now, the the, the, kind, of, bitcoin, maximalist, would

say no, dude, you, don't, get, it, because, what happens, is, everyone, just, gets, out, of, the dollar, and, and, everyone, gets, into bitcoin, and, bitcoin, goes, to, you, know, 10 million, dollars, bitcoin, or, or, 100, like whatever, whatever, the, number, is, like come, up, with, a, number, right um because, in, that, case, it's, not, really about, bitcoin, it's, about, how, many dollars, have, you, created, um, and, and, so and, if, you, create, enough, dollars, then bitcoin, could, go, to, any, number, of dollars, but, dollars, aren't, worth, as, much all, of, those, things, could, happen, but, i think, what, i, think, what's, happening that, is this, is, the, 55, year, old, to, me, as, opposed to, 25, year, old, what's, happening, is, that the, government the, government, wisely

looked, at, the, situation, and, said, okay we, can't, ever, let, that, happen and, so, what, do, you, do, if, you, if, you decide, that, you, can't, let, that, happen what, do, you, do, you, go, okay um we, get, to, tax, bitcoin and, once, once, the, government, goes, all right if, this, thing, this, thing, is, either, gonna be, here, to, stay, or, we're, gonna, shut, it down, okay, if, you, decide, to, shut, it, down there, are, huge, risks, because, you actually, can't, shut, it, down, all, you, can do, is, make, it, illegal, all, right, if, you make, it, illegal, it, might, be, the, case that, that, was, a, really, bad, decision, for your, entire, economy, because

let's, say, that, that, technology represented, some, new, innovation, and the, u.s, shut, it, down, but, europe, didn't shut, it, down, or, u.s, made, it, illegal rather, europe, didn't, and, then, all, the european, financial, companies, went, on, to just, do, all, of, these, great, innovative things, and, the, us, was, left, behind, and then, the, u.s, has, to, turn, around, three years, later, and, go, that, was, a, really dumbest, decision, governments, hate, making dumb, or, hate, having, to, admit, they, made dumb, decisions, so, you, don't, want, to, do that, okay what, you, want, to, do, is, you, want, to, say okay, let's, just, imagine, that, it's, here to, stay, all, right, how, do, we, wrest control, from, it, in, a, way, where, we, don't lose, control, of, senior, age, and, the dollar, because, that, would, be, very, bad thing, for, the, us, and, so, the, answer actually, is, really, simple, and, we're

seeing, it, play, out, in, real, time, the first, thing, you, do, is, you, say, we, want, to understand, who, owns, what, and, once, you understand, who, owns, what, then, you, go okay, now, that, we, know, what, you, have, we actually, know, what, your, capital, gain, is on, that, asset, that, you, own, and, we, can choose, to, tax, it, at, whatever, we, want no, one, who, invests, in, crypto, right, now would, want, to, hear, this, but, i'll, just make, the, i'll, just, make, not, because, of any, insight, but, if, the, government, at some, point, in, the, future said you, know, we're, going, to, tax, digital assets, at, 80, capital, gains, they, can, do that, because, governments, can, do, whatever they, want, to, do, okay, so, the, 25, year, old in, me, would, have, said, yeah, but, the government, you, know, then, then, everyone will, start, breaking, the, law, and, people

won't, tell, the, government, what, they, have i, don't, think, that, will, happen, the government, has, done, a, very, smart, thing in, in, that, they've, pursued, a, regulatory path, that, before, long, will, allow, them, to know, where, certainly, we're, every american, but, probably, more, or, less everyone, in, the, world, they'll, probably more, or, less figure, out, who, owns, what, and, then, if they, do, debase, the, dollar, and, the, dollar does, collapse, well, guess, what politicians, have, this, huge, pool, of capital, gain, that, they, can, tax, and, so that, that's, where, we, are, i, think, that that's that's, a, healthy, balance, so, so, where that, leaves, us, it, leaves, us, with a, with, a, digital, asset, ecosystem, that provides, a, sanity, check, on, government

policy, which, i, think, is, super, healthy for, a, dynamic, political, system, in, other words if, the, government, becomes, reckless, in terms, of, its, monetary, and, fiscal, policy you're, going, to, see, it, with, digital asset, prices, appreciating, significantly and, people, go, wait, a, second, what, are, you doing, with, my, money, and, that, will, help create, i, think, more, sensible, policy, but if, at, the, end, of, the, day, the, government really, messes, up, and, the, dollar, were, to follow, a, long, way, and, digital, assets went, crazy, they're, just, going, to, claw back, a, bunch, of, that, through, through taxation, this, is, an, incredibly reasonable, take, and, i'm, glad, you articulated, it, to, articulated, it, this way, because, i, don't, think, i've, i've heard, it, explained, this, way, but, it's

like, i, think, what, you're, saying, eric, is like, the, horse, has, already, left, the, barn right, you, know, there's, all, these thoughts, in, the, early, days, that, the government, will, never, lose, its, seniors so, it'll, never, let, bitcoin, be, a, thing it'll, shut, it, down, well, it, hasn't, horse has, already, left, the, barn, it's, not, even going, to, pursue, that, policy, at, least, the us, government, has, now, that, china, has gone, and, pursued, it, by, the, way, makes, the u.s, even, less, likely, probably, to, pursue that, policy, because, they, get, all, the miners, in, the, u.s, they, get, competitive advantage, but, they, still, have, the, i guess, lever, of, taxation, so, they, can always, still, tax, their, citizens, and, you know, you, get, a, capital, gain, on, crypto you, know, 10x, cool, the, government, gets, a piece, of, that, so, thank, you, very, much

right, um, that's, what, you're, saying, and so, there's, really, no, big, threat, from your, perspective, of, you, know, regulators or, the, big, bad, us, government, coming, and squashing, the, entire, industry, you, think that, threat, is, uh, is, overplayed, uh they're, not, going, to, do, that, is, that, the case, yeah, well, i, think, that, i, think, what just, happened, is, that, they, decided, to not, do, that, for, bitcoin, and, and, i, think that, extends, to, eth, i, think, for the, regulatory uh, wrestling, match, is, going, to, be, years in, the, making, and, every, incumbent industry, that's, threatened, by, these technologies, trust, me, is, gonna, be rolling, out, their

their, uh you, know, lobbyists, to, try, to, make, sure that their, business, isn't, you, know, isn't completely, destroyed, by, these technologies, so, it's, not, that, they're the, the, regulatory issues, are, not, fully, settled, but, what i, think, what, we, just, saw, the, government do and, remember, this, is, a, biden, this, is, a biden, sec, chair, it's, not, you, like, no, one it's, not, like, biden, can, throw, gensler under, the, bus, and, say he, he, was, a, rogue, agent, this, was, a, this was, a i, don't, have i, don't, have, ins, i, don't, have, specific insight, information, i'm, just, looking, at this, as, a, as, a, macro, investor, who, pays attention

given, the, level, of, scrutiny, around, a bitcoin, etf the, fact, that, they, just, approved, one tells, you, that, the, government in, a, holistic, way, just, said we, might, not, love, the, we, might, not, love bitcoin, we, might, might, not, like, it, we might, even, hate, it but, we, are, not, at, the, point, where, we think, the, u.s, government, and, our financial, system, and, our, political system should, be, in, the, business of regulating interesting, new, technologies, out, of existence, we, are, not, in, that, business and, we're, gonna, let, the, market, figure, it out, and, that, doesn't, mean, we're, never gonna, hear, from, them, again, it, just, means that

it, means, that, that's, what, they, said, and that's, a, really, really, big, thing, so, i think, people, underestimate, how, important that, is, i, think, it's, just, it's, seismic um, now, by, the, way, i, expected, that, as, the end, game, so, i'm, not, sitting, here going, oh, my, god, i, thought, that, was, going to, happen, and, now, it's, not, but, it's, one thing, to have, a, strong, view and, an, informed, view, that, this, is, what would, happen, and, it's, another, thing, for that, event, to, play, out, that, event, has just, played, out, i, think, that's, super interesting, so, the, implications, of, that are, basically, the, government, is, saying you're, saying, this, is, much, more coordinated, than, what, we, see, if, like, you know, the, sec, saying, okay, bitcoin, etf you're, saying, look the, entire, administration, everybody, in the, government, power, were, kind, of, in, on

it, right, it's, treasury, talking, to, sec talking, to, fincen, and, they're, all, saying okay you, can, have, your, bitcoin, people, here, it is, and, so now, maybe, they'll, have, a, different perspective, on, like, privacy, chains, right so, like, cryptocurrency, absolutely because, taxation, is, a, concern, or, maybe they'll, have, a, different, perspective, on something, like, usdc or, a, tether, or, stablecoin, right, because you, know, that, gets, into, some, other, areas but, when, we're, talking, about, these, the biggest, crypto, assets, the, ones, that matter, the, ones, that, are, the, base, layer for, everything, else, the, bitcoins, and ethers, of, the, world right, that's, gone, that, horse, has, left the, barn, now, maybe, they'll, invest, in like, blockchain, analytics, companies

right, in, fact, there's, all, these contracts, with, the, irs, and, blockchain analytics, so, they, can, trace, and, see, you know, how, much, assets, their, citizens actually, hold, but, that's, on, the, kind, of the, taxation, path, um, yeah, that, i, i, think all, of, that, is, a, really, interesting, take eric, and, and, feels, like, an, informed observer, because, so, often, in, crypto, um we, get, regulatory, fund, probably, every two, weeks, okay, and, there's, like headlines, in, our, crypto, media, saying, so and, so, evil, you, know, government, official is, going, to, like, kill, crypto, and, like when, you, zoom, out, and, you, take, this position, on, it, like, this, is, just temporary, noise, and, flood, and, we, don't really, don't, have, to, worry, about, that, in the, short, run, i, want, to, ask, you, another question, before, just, to, tie, off, this

thread, on, kind, of, like, the, the generational, divide, and, young, versus, old because, you, made, this, point, in, your weekly, that, i've, really, loved, is, and, you talked, about, this, and, i, think, this, will speak, to, a, lot, of, our, listeners, the advantage, of, being, young, and, broke, okay i, might, say, young, dumb, and, broke, okay because, that's, you, know, it's, popular song, i, guess um, but, like what, are, the, advantages, of, being young dumb, and, broke, do, you, think, right, versus um, the, establishment, cast, because, like, i mean, young, people, maybe, they, don't, know a, lot, about, finance, they, don't, have these, preconceived, uh, notions, they, also like, don't, have, a, lot, of, power, and, they don't, have, a, lot, of, money, and, you actually, couch, these, things, as, an advantage, why, is, that, an, advantage, in

your, mind for, starters, i, don't, i, don't, think i, don't, think, it's, ever, going, to, be, done um but, i, think, if, you, use, if, you, use, dumb if, you, use, dumb, as, a um no, preconceived, notions, yeah, the, world works, yeah, yeah, because, i, you, know the, the, best early, trade, in, my, career actually, was, uh, was, when, i, was, in, london as, a, prop, trader working, with, uh, hold, was, i, that, would have, been, knife, i, would, have, been, 28.

um so, i, i, i, was, i, was, young, i, was, dumb, and i, was, dumb, on, a, lot, of, dimensions actually, but, i, uh and i, wasn't, entirely, broke, but, i, mean, more or, less, uh, but, i, was, i, was, uh i, had, the, advantage, when, i, was, trading against, um a, lot, of, older, guys, uh, when, it, came, to this, thing, called, the, erm, which, is, the exchange, rate, mechanism, which, was, it, was a, mechanism, that that was, an, agreement, between, european countries, to, keep, their, currencies toggled, to, one, another through, this, exchange, rate, mechanism, in very, narrow, ranges and

i, saw, all, kinds, of, imbalances, that, were being, built, up and, i, mean, i, honestly, i, didn't, really know, what, i, was, talking, about, but, i, was an, econ, major, and, i, did, read, and, i remember, i, went, up, to to, our, chief, economist, i, had, lunch, with him, and, he, served, all, this, sushi, and, i was, like, wow, that's, how, these, guys, this is, how, they, roll, um and, and, i, walked, him, through it'll, the, ins, the, unsustainability, of italy's, finances, and, i, said, i'm, just looking, at, this, and, like, to, me, these guys, are, going, to, go, broke, in, six, months and, i'm, if, he, used, to, work, at, the, imf i'm, expecting, him, to, say, oh, that's, not that's, not, possible, he's, like, actually it's, a, fair, point, and, so, i, ran, down, on the, desk, and, i, just, started, i, started

putting, all, these, trades, on, and, the, old guys none, of, them, could, conceive, that, this rate, mechanism, could, ever, break, because you, had, central, banks, on, both, sides, of it, and, it, was, very, it, was, one, of, the, it was, like, one, of, these, systems, that, just converged, everything, into, these, tight ranges, and, as, it, did, it, created, all, the all, the, older, guys, who, just, saw the, invincibility, of, it, would, make bigger, and, bigger, bets for, narrower, narrower, spreads and or, small, and, smaller, profits, effectively and, it, created, a, highly, explosive situation, if, the, underlying, economies fell, out, of, balance, right, and, so i, was, just, dumb, enough to, to, actually, be, able, to, to, see, that

that, was, a, real, possibility, and, so, and, i was, young, and, i, had, i, really, had, nothing to, lose, um, and, so you, know, i, had, my, job, to, lose, and, at, the time i, i, just, i, don't, want, to say, i, didn't care, i, just, but, i, i, i, cared, less, about say when, i, walk, into, work, every, day, right now, i, care, about, all, of, my, clients, i'm their, fiduciary, i, care, about, everyone who, works, here, i, care, about, my, fam, like there's, so, many, other, considerations, i'm thinking, about, what's, in, the, best interest, of, the, us, when, i, was, 20, years old, trust, me, i, didn't, think, about anything, so so now the, thing, is a, healthy, society, needs, a, lot, of, guys like, me right, now, at, 55, but, it, also, if, you're

going, to, have, a, vibrant, economic, system particularly, when, technology, is, enabling the, potential, for, so, much innovation, and, what, does, innovation, mean innovation, leads, to, higher, productivity work, which, everyone, society, should, want to, be, able in, in, a, sense, to, work, jobs, that, are, less strenuous, and, maybe, for, less, amount, of time, and, yet, have, all, the, creature comforts, and, food, and, every, shelter, that they, want, so, all, these, things, are amazing, for, society, but, you, kind, of, need to, have you, know, the, 28, year, old young, dumb, and, broke, guy, who, just, walks in, and, says, well, this, is, stupid, i, can't believe, you, guys, don't, see, that, it's, so stupid, let, me, actually, do, something

about, it, right, and, i'm, not, i'm, not, going to, say, that, like, i, wasn't, the, only, one who, participated, in, breaking, that, system it, wasn't, even, that, i, broke, it, it, was, a system, that, was, on, its, last, legs, and, so george, soros um you, know, became, very, famous, for, for making, a, billion, dollars, when, that system, broke, in, a, day, and, he, wasn't, 28 years, old, he, was, older, but, like, it, takes an, ecosystem, of, of, people, who you, know who, have, who, can, afford, to, make, mistakes and, not, have, it, destroy, the, rest, of their, lives, like, to, me when, i, think, about, mistakes, that, i, could make at our, firm, right, now, and, trust, me, we're

willing, to, take, a lot, of, risk, right we've, talked, about, some, of, the, risks that, we've, taken, it's, not, that, we're, not risk, takers, it's, just, that, it's, just, a little, bit, more, measured, and, thoughtful about, how, we, approach, things, right, but you, need, to, have, that, whole, kind, of, you need, to, have, that, whole, ecosystem, if you're, going, to, have, a, really, vibrant economy, and, so i, think, that, if, i, made, huge, mistakes running, this, firm, right, now, would, would society, give, me, the, chance, to, start another, firm, like, this, it, probably wouldn't, realistically, right, when, i'm, 28 i, didn't, even, think, about, that, so, you need, you, know, you, need, those, those characteristics, now, the, last, thing, i will, say, about, that, is, that in, relation, to, the, piece, that, i, wrote what, makes, that, interesting, for, markets

right, now, is, because, you, have, real, one of, the, big, tensions, in, society, is, that you, have, the, baby, boomers, that, we've already, talked, about, how, they, in, many respects, have, have, rigged, the, system, or you, know, nudged, the, system to, favor, their, interest by, the, way, they're, the, ones, that, own, all the, assets, and, even, amongst, baby, boomers they're, still wealth, inequality, right, but, they're, the ones, that, own, all, the, assets and, the, younger, people don't, nothing, and, and, this, isn't, just, a normal, state, of, affairs, this, is historically, we're, talking, about, huge dispersion, between, these, groups, relative to, what, a, healthy, society, or, or, relative to, long-term, averages, in, this, country so

what, what, happens, is, the, old, people, what they, want, they, just, want, to, stay, rich and so, they, are, tending, to, not, want, to, take risks, with, that, money, and, so, they're owning, bonds but, the, young, people, are, saying, you, know what, we, are, done, with, you, guys, we, do want, universal, basic, income, you, guys screwed, up, the, planet, we, want, green energy, we, want, to, remake, everything, and i, know, it, i, know, that, it's, biden, leading that, and, he's, a, million, years, old, but it's, the, young, people, in, his, party, that are, kind, of, pushing, those, policies, so the, youth, is, fighting, against, the, old people, so, the, old, people, own, all, these bonds, and, now, inflation, is, going, up, and they're, they're, becoming, less, wealthy this, is, a, disaster, so, if, you're, old you're, going, i, want, to, own, bonds, because

it's, going, to, pay, me, my, coupon, and, i, can stay, wealthy what, you, what, you're, terrified, of, is when, someone, goes, actually, no, if, you, own bonds, you're, going, to, start, becoming less, wealthy, year, by, year, because inflation's, going, to eat, away, so, you're going, to, have, to, go, take, risk, okay, you got, to, take, risks, so, what, does, that, mean if, you, take, risk, it, means, that, you, might buy, something, and, it, might, fall, 50, in value so, you, don't, want, to, do, that, and, that's that, is, this, dynamic, that's, happening, in markets, right, now, that, is, it's, going, to create, a lot, of, opportunity, by, the, way but, when, you, look, at, what's, happening, in the, digital, asset, markets, the, young people, are, saying, i'm, not, even, playing your, game, if, if, you, bought, all, that, gold after, 0.8, old, guy, because, you, were

worried, about, inflation, because, you, were expecting, me, to, work, my, my, butt, out, off for, the, next, 10, or, 15, years, so, that, i would, pay, an, even, higher, price, for, your gold, guess, what, i'm, not, doing, it, i'm buying, bitcoin, so, you, can, own, your, gold and, you, can, figure, out, who, you're, going to, sell, it, to, you, want, to, sell, to, some people, in, india, getting, married, good luck, or, some, chinese, like, good, luck, but i'm, not, buying, that, and, so, that, we're seeing, some, of, those, tensions, in, in markets, right, now, and, and, how, those, i mean it, really, is, this, is, a, terrible terrible, market, environment, for, older people, for, that, reason, and, the, young people, like, look, even, if, i, buy, a, bunch of, crypto, and, or, i, i, invest, in, this project, or, i, build, this, company, and, it

fails 28, who, cares you, know, what, i, mean, like, they're literally, not, even, thinking, about, it it's, beautiful, it's, beautiful, eric, i feel, like, you're, nailing, it, completely right, so, you, made, this, uh, you, know statement, in, in, your, post, there, as elderly, gold, owners, ride, in, portfolio pain, confused, why, the, price, of, yellow metal, is, falling, with, inflation, rising our, young, people, look, to, the, digital future, buying, bitcoin, ether, solana, nfts that's, exactly, what's, happening, and, just to, put, some, color, on, that, because, i didn't, actually, know, this, you, were talking, about, like, how, much, pain, the older, demographic, is, with, with, bonds basically, when, they're, you, know, not, in full, risk, assets, when, they're, not, in stock, so, us, inflation, over, the, past, year was, 5.4, percent, you, said, so, older, people

who, own, the, risk-free, 10-year, treasury notes, to, secure, their, retirement, they lost 11.1, 11.2, percent, here, actually, they're losing, money, right, by, not, investing, in crypto, essentially, or, at, least, having, a portfolio, with, these, risk, on, assets, like stocks, that, is, some, of, the, generational pain, that, we're, talking, about, here, and, i guess, the, opportunity, from, being, young dumb, and, broke, the, the, other, thing, i'll say, is, like there's, fractals, of, this, also, eric, that play, out, even, in, crypto, and, one, of, these things, uh, dave, and, i, have, been, exploring is, like, this, whole, more, recent, trend when, i, say, recent, it's, like, three, to, six months, of, new, d5, 2.0, um, portfol, like, uh protocols, right, and, these, defy, 2.0

protocols, right, some, some, people, are calling, it, zoomer, fi, because, the, kids who, are, building, it, are, like teenagers, they're, 18, they're, 19, they're 20, okay, and, they, weren't, around, to, buy bitcoin, or, ether, when, it, was, cheap, right and, so, they, are, they, are, the, new, fractal of, the, new, like, people, that, need, to, take risk, in, this, world, yeah, and, so, like, the older, d5, people, like, you, know, maybe, not so, much, david, and, i, because, we're, trying to, understand, all, the, perspectives, here but, like we, are, kind, of, the, baby, boomers, of decentralized, finance, because, there's this, new, cohort, that's, coming, to, the space, and, they're, questioning, everything and, they're, like yeah, we, like, what, you, guys, built, and that's, all, great, and, it's, less, risky, and it's, all, safe, but, like, we're, doing, this other, thing, over, here, right, and, so, it's

very, funny, how, these, uh, these, things play, out, in, fractals, and, they, just, keep repeating, arbitrary, is, an, ethereum scaling, solution, that's, going, to completely, change, how, we, use, defy, and nfts, and, now, it's, live, and, has, over, a hundred, projects, deployed, gas, fees, on ethereum, l1, suck, too, many, people, want, to use, ethereum, and, it, doesn't, have, enough capacity, for, all, of, us, and, that's, why teams, like, arbitrary, have, been, hard, at work, developing, layer, two, solutions, that makes, transactions, on, ethereum, cheap, and instant, arbitrary, increases, ethereum's throughput, by, orders, of, magnitude, at, a fraction, of, the, cost, of, what, we, are, used to, paying, when, interacting, with, arbetrom you, can, get, the, performance, of, a centralized, exchange, while, tapping, into ethereum's, level, of, security, and decentralization, this, is, why, people, are calling, this, ethereum's, broadband, moment where, we, get, to, add, performance, onto

decentralization, and, security, if, you're a, developer, and, you, want, to, save, on, gas costs, and, overall, make, a, better, user experience, go, to developers.offchainlabs.com, to, get started, building, on, arbitrom, and, if you're, a, user, keep, an, eye, out, for, your favorite, defy, apps, being, built, aren't arbitrary, many, d5, applications, on, the ethereum, l1, are, migrating, over, to, layer twos, like, arbitram, and, some, are, even skipping, over, the, layer, ones, entirely and, deploying, directly, on, layer, two there's, so, many, apps, coming, online, to arbitrarily, so, go, to bridge.arbitrum.io, now, and, start bridging, over, your, eth, or, any, of, the tokens, listed, and, start, having, the, defy or, nfc, experience, that, you've, always wanted, living, a, bankless, life, requires taking, control, over, your, own, private keys, not, your, keys, not, your, crypto that's, why, so, many, in, the, bankless

nation, already, have, their, ledger hardware, wallet, which, makes, proper private, key, management, a, breeze, but, the ledger, ecosystem, is, much, more, than, just a, secure, hardware, wallet, ledger, is, the combination, of, the, ledger, hardware wallet, and, the, ledger, live, app, and, if you're, used, to, seeing, all, of, your, crypto services, and, favorite, defy, apps, all, in one, spot, ledger, live, is, where, you, want to, be not, only, does, ledger, let, you, buy, your crypto, assets, straight, from, the, app, but it, also, hooks, into, all, of, the, d5, apps and, services, that, you're, used, to using, ledger, live, you, can, stake, your ethan, lido, swap, on, dexes, like, paraswap or, display, your, nfts, with, rainbow, you can, also, use, wallet, connect, inside, of ledger, live, to, connect, to, all, the, other defy, apps, that, keep, coming, online, defy

never, stops, growing, and, the, ledger, live app, grows, alongside, with, it, so, click, the link, in, the, show, notes, to, see, all, of, the defy, apps, that, ledger, live, has, and, stay tuned, as, more, apps, come, online, and, if you, don't, have, a, ledger, hardware, wallet what, are, you, even, waiting, for, go, to ledger.com, grab, a, ledger, download, ledger live, and, get, all, of, your, defy, apps, all in, one, space, uh, you, know, we, don't, have too, much, time, left, eric, this, has, been, an absolute, pleasure, to, talk, to, you, about these, things, just, want, to, tie, a, few, more things, off, because i, think, throughout, this, conversation you've, really, made, the, case, for, digital assets, in, particular, like, bitcoin, and eth, and, i, want, to, get, into, maybe, the entire, thesis, of, of, um your, firm, on, this, on, both, bitcoin, and

eth, um, and, like, i, guess, maybe, uh, you come, to, a, conclusion, on, it, um, so, much, of what, we've, been, talking, about, with, the monetary, policy, change, the, you, know technological, change, that, crypto, and bitcoin, uh, brings, is, sort, of, a, a, new, way to, think, about, money, and, you, wrote, this in, your, case, for, digital, assets, um, money is, an, illusion, perhaps, the, greatest, the world's, greatest, mass, delusion, you, say money, is, not, real, it, never, has, been, it never, will, be, it, is, our, collective, faith in, the, meaning, of, money, that, gives, it value i, want, to, talk, about, that, because, that is, uh it's, not, contrarian, in, crypto, circles right, but, it's, still, got, to, be institutional, contrarian, right, like, not a, lot, of, people, have, given, much, thought

into what, money, actually, is, so, tell, us, how did, you, come, to, this, conclusion, what's been, your, thought, process, this, idea, that money, is, an, illusion, uh, mass, mass, the greatest, the, world's, greatest, mass delusion, and, what, the, nature, of, money actually, is uh money, i've, i've, studied, money, my, my whole, career, i've, studied market, history, i've, studied, manias um and i, you, know, one, of, the, great, things, that trading, does, that, is, a, little, unique amongst, professions, is, it, just man, it, just, forces, you, to, just, have, to

confront, your, mistakes, and, your, errors or, you, die, and, there, are, a, lot, of, other industries, where, people, can, probably persist, with with, making, mistakes, for, you, know perhaps, way, too, long um and it's, all, you, know, so, over, over, that, that period, of, time i, think, i've, just, i've, had, to, confront the, this, fact, that, central, banks, can just, kind, of, keep, doing, what, they're doing, and, it, kind, of, works, and, um [Music] and, there, are, no, rule, there's, no like, there's, no, notion, of, what's, fair unfair, in, markets, and, you, kind, of, you just, you, get, forced, to, have, to, look, at you, have, to, get, you

you're, forced, to, look, at, all, these different, issues, like, markets, and, manias and money, and you, know what, what, do, they, all, mean, how, do, they all, fit, together, you're, kind, of, forced to, just, keep, hammering, your, head, against the, wall, and, just, looking, at, it, from, all different, angles, and, what, what, you ultimately conclude, and, it, really, is, a, conclusion which, is, why, i, wrote, it, i, mean, money there, there, is, no, such, thing, as, money there, is, a there, is, this, notion, that, we, have, of what, money, means, and, it's, a, little, bit like, the, sky, is, blue, we, just, you, know it's, a, it, goes, back, to, some, stuff, we were, talking, about, earlier, where, you know, we, assume, that, the, world functions, based, on, centralized, power, and we, assume, that, money, money, means

something, and, it's, so it's, so, central, to, just, what, we, think about, throughout, our, lives, because, we use, it, all, the, time, that, we, we, kind, of can't, possibly, fathom, that, it, isn't, real and, that, gives, the, government, enormous power, over, us, because, they, can, then, play with, something and, that, we, misunderstand and, if, you, start, on, you, know, if, you, look at if, you, look, at, what, governments, do, with fiat through, that, lens, a, lot, of, things, start making sense, that, might, not, have, made, sense, in markets, if, you, didn't, see, it, through that, lens, so, that's, kind, of, how maybe, that, was, a little, obtuse, but, that that's, kind, of, how, you, end, up, getting there, and, you, and, you, you, come, to, see it's, like obviously, money money, is, useful, you, have, to, pay, taxes

with, your, money, so, there's, you, know there's, certain, things, that, the government, can government, forces, you, to, have, to, make money, because, you, have, to, pay, taxes, in it, right um, so, the, you, know, there, there, are reasons, that, you, have, to, have, it, and, the reasons, you, have, to, work, for, it, but, in terms, of, what, it, really, means, it, doesn't like how, could, something, mean, a, whole, lot, if the, government, could, just, create, seven trillion, dollars, of, of, new, money, i, mean like, what, does, it, mean, right, um, and, then and, that's, what's, so, interesting, about the, case, for, digital, assets, because i, tell, you we've, talked, a, lot, about, the, technology today, but, we, haven't, really, talked, about just, owning, assets, like, how, do, you, how do, you, invest, now, right, how, do, you, what do, you, do, if, you, believe, in, some, version

of, the, of, what, we've, all, talked, about today so, then, what, do, you, do, with, that, right you, can you, can, go, out, and, you, can, create, a company, and, build, a, new, protocol, and, you could, do, that, you, could you, could build, an, asset, management, company, i'm doing, that, um, you, could, build infrastructure, in, this, you, know, you could, you, could, build, a, chain, analysis kind, of, kind, of, there, are, a lot, of things, you, could, do, you, could, build right you, can, also, just, buy, some, of these assets, and, so, when, you, start, looking, at these, assets just, take, bitcoin, it's, just, it's, unlike anything, that, i, have, ever, seen, in, my career, so, it, has, no, it, has, no, tangible value

but, has, a, limited, supply and, what, you what, you come, to, see, is, like, something, that, has no, tangible, value but limited, supply, that's, credible, it, could become, invaluable, and, that, doesn't really, make, sense, in, traditional investment, world, people, go that, makes, no, sense, because, if, i, buy, a piece, of, dirt, and, i, put, a, building, on, it then, it, you, know, i, have, rents it's, like, yeah, that's, true, i, mean, that's true, but, uh that, you, know, but when, you, look, at, most, investments, and then, you, look, at, something, at, bitcoin it's, so, utterly, foreign, and, why, is, it, so foreign, it's, like, because, it, actually has, limited, supply, so, every, other, thing that, i've, ever, invested, in, other, than

other, than, fine, art, and, i, don't, really own, i, own, art, but, not, fine, art, like, i don't, own, the, mona, lisa, there's, only, one mona, lisa, in, the, world, right, and and, so, that, could, that, could, be, as valuable, as, people, choose, it, to, be, right because, there's, only, one, of, them, in, the world, but, there, are, a lot, of, dollars, in the, world, and, they, can, just, make, more, of them, so, i, would, you, know, like, what, is that, value, really, worth, but, there, also there, are, a lot, of really, nice, apartments, in, new, york, city and, if, the, price, goes, up, they're, going to, build, make, more, of, them, and, there's, a lot, of, farmland, in, the, world, if, the price, goes, up, they'll, level, another forest, in, the, amazon, and, you, know, there everything, in, the, world, has, a, supply demand, and, a, supply, a, supply, function

relative, to, price, gold, does, everything does bitcoin no, matter, what, the, price, does, if, it, goes up, or, down they're, not like, we, know, how, much, is, going, to, be made, and, that, and, so, that, creates that, actually, forces, you, to, then, if, you think, about, bitcoin, in, money, terms, it forces, you, to, kind, of, look, at, fiat for, what, it, is, and, it's, like, well, that that, actually, i, mean, fiat, is, a, real illusion, bitcoin, is, an, illusion, and bitcoin, forces, you, to, have, to have, to, admit, that, it, has, no, real, value but, for, like, it's, pure, it's, like, okay well, this, is, what, we're, going, to we, are, assigning, a, value, to, it, and, it means, nothing, like, that, there, is, no tangible, value, other, than, this, network

effect, of, what, we, agree, on, and, so, it's, a really, cool, thing, in, that, way, because we, don't, really, ask, those, questions, of dollars or, euros, or, yen, or, our, rmb, even, though those, are, all, fictitious, but, we, were forced, to, ask, those, in, digital, and, i think, older, people, are, looking, at, that and, they're, going i, reject, that and, younger, people, looking, at, it, and, i think, they're, saying wait, a, second, you, guys, make, money, out, of thin, air, and, we, have, this, thing, that, we all, kind, of, think, is, pretty, incredible and, there, is, a, limited, supply, of, it, so maybe, this, is, actually, more, real, than that um, and, so, so, for, younger, people, anyway, i think, that's, the, that's, the the, thesis, for, it, and, then, and, then

more, savvy, older, people, are, coming around, to, that, and, and, that, that, that's what, will, drive, the, value, higher, it's this sorry, that's, the, red, pill, my, friend that's, the, red, pill, i, was, talking, about eric, one, thing, i, really, appreciate, about this, conversation, and, and, how, you, think is, everything, is, very, pragmatic, uh nothing, is, too, too, crazy, to, out, there and, the, crypto, world, definitely, falls victim, to, people, that, think, in, too, much of, a, crazy, terms, and, so, i, want, to, uh, put one, of, my, most, pragmatic, takes, as somebody, who's, known, to, be, a, little, bit pie, in, the, sky, i, want, to, give, you, my, my most, pragmatic, take, as, to, how, this future, comes, and, there's, a, there's, a line, that, i, like called, uh, that's, goes, um, society

progresses, one, grave, at, a, time, which, is a, little, bit, dark, but, the, basically, it's more, just, like, hey, like, the, future, that we're, envisioning, it'll, come especially, when, everyone, that, doesn't believe, in, it, passes, on, and, leaving behind, everyone, that, does, believe, in, it could, you, could, you, reflect, on, that, uh perspective, as, to, how, this, future actually, arrives, well, i, i, don't, disagree with, what, you, just, said, uh, and, it, is, it is, grim, but, it's, true, but, that's, i, don't know i, mean, hopefully, we, all, have, good, lives and, when when, we're, you, know, we're, we're when, we're, old, we'll, just, go, right, so there's, nothing, wrong, with, that, and, and um and, so yeah like, i, think, there's, a, certain progression, to, life, and, it's, great, to

see, younger, people, i, have, four, kids, i i, just, want, to, see, them, all, do, do, so much, better, and, more, interesting, things in, their, lives, than, than, i, do, and, so, and so, when, i, see, young, people you, know, young, dumb, and, broke, people like, i, was, talking, about, my, 28, year, old self, i, i, think, it's, amazing, and, i, think that, there, are, new, ideas, even, if, i, don't agree, with, all, of, them, they're, going, to lead, to, something, better, so i, i i, think, that, this, you, know, kind, of, this new, future that, is, coming number, one, i, think, it's, inevitable, but, i think, that the, sooner, it, comes, the, better i, am i, think, it's, in, the, u.s, national interest to, bring, this, forward, and, to, be, the leader, in, the, world, in, this, whole, new

you, know, digital, innovation, um and and, so, i, think, it, will, come by, and, hopefully, we'll, play, our, our, you know, small humble, part, in in, educating, and, then, working, with government, and, regulators, to you, know, create, a, a, firm, stable, but always, evolving infrastructure, upon, which, all, this innovation, can, be, built, and, i'll probably, focus, a, lot, more, on, what happens, in, the, financial, services, area but, i, think, getting, that, foundation right, the, thing, is, finance, is, so integral, to, the, way, society, operates, is if, you, can, get, you, can, kind, of, get, get the, right, foundation for, the, financial, world

all, sorts, of, other, things, will, be, built around, it, on, top, of, it, with, greater endorsement, by, political, systems, and, all the, parts, of, government, and, it'll, be more, widely, adopted, by, a, broader, group of, people, so, i, think, like, it, will, happen because the it, it, won't, it's, not, a, total, revolution where, the, old, system, just, crumbles, and the, new, system, takes, over, it's, this, it's going, to, be, this, transition, period, and, i think, it, will, it, makes, sense, to, me, that that, there, will, be, crossover, players like, we, would, i, would, view, us, as, a crossover, player, right, we're, not, a, huge firm, we're, a, multi-billion, dollar, firm but, we're, not, you, know, we're, not, the, big legacy, financial, institutions, and, and we'll, kind, of, help

bring, in, large, pools, of, capital, to, this space, to, make, all, sorts, of, investments and, bridge, legacy players, i, think, a, lot, of, the, weaker, ones will, fail in, the, coming, you, know, 10, or, 15, years and, so, there'll, be, a, lot, of, dead companies, but, there'll, be, legacy companies, that, transition, and, become more, efficient, and, better, um, so, i, think that, will, i, think, that, will, happen, it's not, some, crazy, revolution, but, i, think, it will, be, a, time, of of, enormous, change, and, then, if, we, get, it right, i, think, we, will, have, a, renaissance that, comes, out, of, this, i, think, we're seeing, the, early, signs, of, that, already but, for, me, it's, a, very, optimistic path, that, said you, know, any, transition, period seems, really, bumpy, and, and, for, people

who, resist, change, which, is, almost, 100, of people, i, mean, i, probably, do, too, but, i'm at, least, know, that, humans, all, resist change, so, i, kind, of, try, to see, that, in, myself, and, just, say, okay, i gotta, blow, through, that, because, that's my, job, and, i, have, to, help yeah, and, so, anyway, but, i, think when, so, much, change, is, upon, us, most people, are, going, to, really, struggle, with that, even, if, it's, leading, us, to, a, much better, place, and, i, think, that, that's what's, going, on well, eric, through, the, course, of, this conversation, which, has, absolutely, been, a blast, i, think, you've, you've, served, as the, bridge, from, greenwich, thank, you, for teaching, us, about, that, teacher to, crypto, i, got, it, right, by, the, end, of this, podcast, and, so, we, appreciate, this, i want, to, end, with, this, question, because

we, love, asking, macro, guys, about predictions, you, guys, are, famous, for, your you, know, fantastic, predictions, give, us, a prediction, in, terms, of, where, we're headed, and, you, know, choose, your, own prediction, you, want, to, do, the, price, of uh, eth, bitcoin, end, of, the, year, or, in, a couple, years, do, you, think, that, we're going, to, have, another, cycle, like, a, 2017 cycle, and, then, things, are, going, to bubble, up, and, we'll, have, a, blow, off, the top, or, do you, think, we'll, be, in, a, super cycle, or, just, give, us, some, prediction that, you, feel, you, know, reasonably strongly, about, making, right, now um, i'm, a, longer, term, uh, and, by, the, way i've, i've, haven't, shied, away, from, day trading, over, the, course, of, my, career, but at, this, stage

i'm, uh, i'm, a, longer-term, investor, uh investor, in, macro, um, and, i, think, that i, have yeah, i, have, competitive, advantage, in that, space, so, that's, kind, of, what, i stick, to, um i, think i'll, leave, you, two, things, one, is, that i, think, the, mark, when, it, comes, to bitcoin, because, i, think, your, listeners are, really, interested, in, that i, think, bitcoin people, currently, look, at, bitcoin, as digital, gold and, i, think, that, it's, a, it's, helpful, for people, to, have a, mental, model, or, a, framework, to, think about, anything, brand, new, because otherwise, they're, just, lost and, i, think, it's

i, think, it's, a, reasonable, mental, model to, have, and, they, say, well, bitcoin, goes to, 575, thousand, dollars, it'll, be, equal to, gold, that, just, assumes, that, no, one sells, their, gold, by, the, way, and, you, know but, anyway, um i, think, that i, think, that, eventually, bitcoin, will, go is, will, be, way, more, valuable, than, gold and, that, uh, and, that, as, we, approach, that level, or, maybe, surpass, whatever, that goal, crossover, level, is, people, will begin, to, believe, we'll, begin, to, start seeing, that, it, wasn't, the, right framework, but, i, think, for, the, time, being it's, it's, fine, because, it's, a, it's, a price, that's, way, far, away, but, i, think we'll, end, up seeing, that, that, gold, is, an, inert, metal

it, hasn't, changed, in i, don't, know, in, however, many, billions, of years, and, uh, and, bitcoin, will, evolve over, the, next, couple, years, so, i, so, i think, that's, that's, one, thing, which makes, me, you, know, really, positive, on, on this, this, whole, space, the, second, thing that, i, that, i will, tell, you, is, that, i have, studied financial, manias, over, my, career and, what, i, see, from, the, macro, inputs from, the, technological, change, and, from to, use, david's, term, the, paradigm, shift that, we, see, the, inputs, that, i, see are, un are, unlike things, that, i've, seen, historically, i think, we, could, i, think we, could, legitimately, have, the, largest

kind, of speculative, boom, in, human, history and, i, know, that you, know, that, plays, out, over, the, over the, coming, decade, and, i, think, that, a, lot of, it, will, be, based, on on, technological, developments, that, are incredibly, valuable, and, a, lot, of, it, will be, garbage, um, because, that's, just, the nature, of, things, but, i, think, it's, i think, we're, in, we're, in, a, period, like that and, so the, important, thing, to consider, when if, you, believe, that, you're, in, a, period like, that, is, that, you, need, to, you, need to, be very, open-minded, about, what, prices, and all, sorts, of, things, could, do, and, uh, and i, think, we're, seeing, signs, of, that, like in, nfts, you, start, seeing, things, that most, people, can't, comprehend, and, i, think

those those, tend, to, be, the, things, i, paid, most attention, to, because, i, think, they're reflecting, some, underlying, change in, the, way, markets, operate, in, the, world and, uh, maybe, how, humans, operate, and some, of, these, tensions, and, how, they're playing, out, but, i, so, those, are, the, those are, the, two, things, i, i'm, i'm, very attuned, to, that, i, think, we, i, think, we could, be, in, the, the you, know, early, stages, of, of, just yeah, remarkable, moves, um so maybe, that's, not, specific, that's, not certain, that's, but, you, know, that's, great love, it, that, guys, uh, eric, peters, bitcoin bigger, than, gold, the, largest, speculative mania, possibly, in, human, history, get prepared, for, that, you, are, prepared, if

you're, listening, to, bankless, eric, uh thanks, so, much, for, joining, us, this, has been, an, absolute, blast, we've, really appreciated, your, time awesome, you, guys, thank, you, so, much, it's a, real, pleasure, to, be, honest, this, is, fun all, right, action, items, for, you, bankless listeners, we, referenced, a, few, reading materials, some, notes, for, you, read, eric peter's, weekend, notes, the, one, it's called, young, and, broke, you, can, read we'll, include, a, link, in, the, show, notes also, the, world, belongs, to, those, who, let go, another, fantastic, weekend, note, read you, can, also, read, the, case, for, quantum change, and, the, case, for, digital, assets that, eric, has, published, on, the, one, river website, as, well, include, links, in, the show, notes, and, if, you, have, not, already become, a, bankless, premium, member, this, is your, reminder, to, do, that, just, 22, a, month

what, do, we, give, for, that, uh, a, market opportunity, report, every, monday, access to, the, inner, circle, discord, where, we, can level, up, as, a, group, you, get, the, podcast debrief, so, right, after, this, david, and, i are, getting, on, a, show, we're, doing, a debrief, of, our, discussion, with, eric, you get, access, to, that, discounts, nfts, and more you, could, sign, up, for, that, in, the, show notes, on, the, bankless, website, as, well bank, newsletter.banklesshq dot, com, slash, subscribe, will, get, you there, risks, and, disclaimers, of, course bitcoin, is, risky, eth, is, risky, all, of crypto, is, risky, so, is, the, traditional world, you, can't, get, away, from, risk, folks you, could, lose, what, you, put, in, but, we are, headed, west, this, is, the, frontier it's, not, for, everyone, but, we're, glad

you're, with, us, on, the, bankless, journey thanks, a, lot, hey, we, hope, you, enjoyed, the video, if, you, did, head, over, to, bankless hq, right, now, to, develop, your, crypto investing, skills, and, learn, how, to, free yourself, from, banks, and, gain, your financial, independence, we, recommend joining, our, daily, newsletter, podcast, and community, as, a, bankless, premium subscriber, to, get, the, most, out, of, your bankless, experience, you'll, get, access, to our, market, analysis, our, alpha, leaks, and exclusive, content, and, even, the, bankless token, for, airdrops, raffles, and, unlocks if, you're, interested, in, crypto, the bankless, community, is, where, you, want, to be, click, the, link, in, the, description, to become, a, bankless, premium, subscriber today, also, don't, forget, to, subscribe, to the, channel, for, in-depth, interviews, with

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