#271 Martin Köppelmann & Matan Field: How the dxDAO could become the world’s largest organization

Transcript

[Music] this episode of epicenter is brought to you by top-down experience a new way of hiring as top tell delivers only the top 3% of applicants including highly skilled locked-in engineers if you're looking to scale your team with the very best talent visit top.com slash epicenter hi my name is Brian Furman crane I'm Sonny Agarwal so we're here today with Martin Kerpelman who's the CEO and founder of Knossos and

Martin field the CEO and founder of dollar stack both of them have been on the podcast before and today we're gonna speak about the super exciting experiment that they're doing together which is combining it DeSantis exchange and a doll and yeah it was a great conversation we hope we enjoy it as well so let's go to the interview so we're here with martin cup lemon and martin field so both of them are you know back on the podcast have been here before martin actually twice so your third time here and martin was here three years ago so quite a long time ago to speak about kenosis so we're gonna speak about the very interesting project which is the dodgy change in the TX style so yeah

thanks so much for joining us today guys no thanks for having us thanks so maybe we can start with you Martin so we spoke about gnosis before and you know of course some people will also some listeners who asked me where after gnosis because you guys wouldn't you know were sponsoring the podcast last year but it tell us a little bit you know what is gnosis and what's the evolution that you know psious go through yeah so the core of gnosis is is bridge market and British market platform and we see prediction markets really as a new asset class basically we recently

like coins the term conditional tokens because it's really a lot of you can do with prediction markets you can give any event the likelihood or might make a market for the occurrence of an event but you can do much more you can do you can see how any event is influencing any other event so how is one event happening influencing is likelihood of another event happening but it's also useful for stuff like how does one event happen happening influence the price of off of any asset and that's super interesting also for decision making this is future key discussion how does this decision influence stock of a company your token or something like

that so we say that those conditional tokens and and that's yeah we provide a framework for for those to really create a new asset class let's create part of Knossos then we have a trait part of gnosis so we have all those new conditional tokens that needed to be traded somewhere and that became more and more the the focus of gnosis to provide efficient trading mechanisms for this new asset class but in general for

for tokens if you if you the trading mechanism you why wouldn't you I mean you would allow to trade anything that's from a technical perspective it doesn't make that much of a difference what you trade there so create trait and the third thing we did somewhat Harvison related to our initial vision is the whole part create trade hold a little bit like historically we started to build a motorcycle it because there was no and we wanted to talk and say all so we wrote a motifs equality that was able to hold tokens that became almost the industry standard almost every I cos was is using it and we realized well we we

should like continue that and support that and bring that that additional security of the Melissa quality to consumers so have a smart contract wallet where you as a consumer use a modest equality and you have multiple keys right now on the first setting that's not so safe you have for example one key on your phone and one key on your computer or wherever and it's a convenient way to use it so let's enjoy what Nelson is currently doing create rate and hold very cool that actually makes a lot of sense it helps be like that puts all like you

know your major projects that you guys have been working on in like context so what are some of like the updates since like the last time you were on the last time you guys are on I was three years ago summer 2016 a lot of stuff has changed since then in fact the last time that you were on we were actually talking a lot about the Dow and so kind of interesting that now we're here talking to be talking today but the DX Dow but so one of the things I you know since then you guys have spun out of consensus you guys have done your own token sale which like in my eyes was like you know I think it was in April 2017 and in my eyes I see like the gnosis ico as like the IC o---- that kind of kicked off IC o---- craze and so

how was that whole experience for you guys yeah well it's quite right right yeah you think you mentioned where did the token say it was obviously a well changed lot before the token say we were like a company of where we were still part of consensus until today we are a company of 50 50 people working on those three big big big topics we yeah I guess we were lucky was a token say it was a timing he's very appreciating selling a bit it's a right moment so we kind of

are in a good position have a decent runway of many years [Music] I think it went very well and we are in a good position but still still so much work there's so much like infrastructure is still missing that's just the case so yeah I mean the decision to build stuff like exchanges or exchange technology and and yet another wallet was not something we we did lightly or mean we obviously looked at at the hundred other Texas there are currently being that and

the hundred other wallets that are being built and we still like decided it does not cover our needs and we can we do think we bring additional significant contributions do cool and somewhat on how about you you know you guys were on much more recently only about eight months ago how is that you know the evolution of downstack proceeded since last May yes so likewise I mean we had a really successful were very successful token sale back in may may twenty eighteen and then of course that changed a lot we grew the company our company roughly of twenty five people

so that's well of course that's kind of like stabilizing the company and growing the project and then we made it a lot of efforts on I mean we we already had a working product before the token sale and we insisted to launch a token sale with the road product but I think the last eight months we had the incredible advance in pushing the product from I would say a prototype into a real production ready like a real product a real product that is on a blockchain but looks like a real product and works like a pretty product and has a significant value position kind of like make it way more professional so these eight months were a huge amount of effort to bring like the the most advanced technology on

top of the blockchain and yeah it's really exciting and now we're just launching that and the X that will be one of the first what what maybe with few other downs that we will launch with basically we launched the basic platform I mean we already launched it I don't know six months ago on the minute with an alpha version which again was kind of like a prototype but now in q1 towards the end of q1 we were launching the whole system you know from from the bottom end of the blockchain contracts all the way to the interface and there are few layers in between so the whole system will be launched in public data and the DX that would be one of the first probably the first big Dow on top of the platform cool and yeah we're

going to come back to that in detail in a little bit but before we dive into the DX star stuff let's talk about the Dutch exchange so Martin why did you guys decide to build decentralized exchange and what's different about the Dutch exchange we are first because we needed a place to trade predictions simple as that so so the prediction market obviously is a place where where it already includes the word market so I guess the next question could be why wouldn't we use one of the existing market mechanisms and that is that is because we believe there is a need for

fully decentralized market market mechanism and most of the decentralized exchanges right now are I would call them non-custodial centralized exchanges so that means yes they are not non-custodial you you you you remain in control of the funds but critical parts of the of the of the exchange like the matchmaking keeping the order book maybe even deciding which which tokens can be traded or not are in in central in centralized control and I I definitely

see need kind of also for sales non-custodial centralized exchange but I dog definitely also see a need for like more protocol layer or like like infrastructure layer things that's just slightly above aetherium just some decentralized protocol that allows you to efficiently exchange any token into any other token and my claim is there are few that are the there are like some that are fully decentralized so unit swaps for example one and and there is well you can also do a full-on chain order book or girls doing that wisest X

is doing that so those are basically the two or the three only fully digitalized exchanges I'm aware of all of them have unfortunately significant game theoretic problems around front running around being able to provide enough liquidity because the costs are quite high to provide enough liquidity of those mechanisms so the bottom line is we are really into building something that is a fully decentralized market mechanism is fully decentralized is reasonable or is efficient as possible of course and doesn't have any like game theoretic the

tech vectors like mine yeah minor front running is a big one so could you go ahead and like maybe walk to us a little bit about how the dutch axis stem works and like you know the mechanisms of this have change and how you know I feel most people might if when they think of exchanges they're probably moat usually thinking of order book so that's why what most people are familiar with so how does this compare to a traditional order book mechanism right right so it's kind of just there to to preface that the data exchange is yeah I would make the claim it's right now the only fully decentralized a mechanism that doesn't that cannot be attacked by was front

running especially from from from miners so and we had to do like compromises for that so how does it work yeah it uses the Dutch auction model so let's say something you want to sell what tokens do you want to sell let's say some maker token make it tokens right so so there is a pair maker and that's actually one of the pair's it's quite active on the objects make her either let's say and roughly the system starts every six hours in option so there is a period before the auction where everyone who wants to sell maker tokens like puts puts their maker tokens in this pot and

at some point is the auction start and basically the auction mechanism is now trying to sell all those maker tokens that are all in one pot for as high price as possible so what it will do is it will start a Dutch auction so that means it starts at a high price and high end in our case is defined as two times the previous price so the previous price is roughly the market price so it starts at two times the previous price and then the price or it kind of offers this to the to the market to to anyone who can do is your home transaction on the blockchain at a dropping rate so the price continuously drops and now as a as someone who wants to buy maker you can

as soon as as soon as the price reaches the level where you are comfortable with you can make a bit or you can send ether and at that point you know you have the guarantee that you will get that price or if the auction continues and unless you clear it it will continue you then eventually get the final price and the clearing price is the price where there's enough by demand at that price to clear the the full auction and the pricing function goes like after six hours so it like it's a 1 1 / X function after 6 hours it reaches the previous price in the

goes all the way to zero so after 24 hours it basically goes to zero so then they will we definitely expect that they will then be shortly before there will be a buyer I mean obviously ideally around six hours after six hours when it reaches the market price roughly the market price it should close the origin and so how often does this cycle begin again again more or less every six hours so so once once the as the options cleared there's just a 15 minute fifteen minute like delay period and if then there is enough volume and in the

current design enough volume means at least $1,000 the next option would start immediately so on a liquid on a somewhat liquid pair that has enough demand for $1,000 trade every six I was at least yeah it would more or less every six hours have a cycle and so is the idea here that or like how do you think about liquidity in this context this is something that you think will just naturally come because there will be arbitrage opportunities if there isn't enough liquidity or right so I would say the data option is a good mechanism where the day their to their to use

cases I would say maybe more of it so one for just very illiquid for for for illiquid tokens where you hardly have a market at all so they're there the order book is like where they're like finding price every six hours is already like good enough for liquid tokens why would you use the Dutch exchange for liquid tokens I would say you would only use it for large or you would only want to use it for a large volume large enough volume so that on on the competing liquid market you would

already move the price significantly there because there's yeah slippage so one experiment we are doing just the ten days before the DX Dow will start to demonstrate this claim we will for ten days each day put $100,000 die order in so so we are each day selling or it kind of buying ether so selling die for ISA so gnosis will basically just buy some more either with die and yeah we are very curious what what the final price

will be and how how how the final price will will compare to well to the market price at the time so our claim would be there is no decks currently that can handle $100,000 market order so dodge X should be one that can do that and roughly the reason is because because it basically gives market makers the perfect the perfect setting to do to do arbitrage or to to kind of - well trade on all on everything where they can get liquidity because it's totally predictable so like this orders coming in you can see this hundred thousand

dollar it's starting at this high price and they see over six hours they slowly see it coming and and during this time they can do all the market makers all the arbitrage people can like compete against each other to to to give this to to give that order the best price compare that to a two if you would just put it the market order on a normal exchange then you only get the price that is available at that moment so so so here the market mega connect after they see or it has the guarantees that this volume is incoming that's really cool

so a few weeks ago we actually had James Prestwich on with he works on a project called Summa one and so they were actually using sort of cross chain touch options where they were selling ether in exchange for Bitcoin and so it was actually very interesting to see that uh on all of their auctions that they've been running they've been doing something similar where they've just been putting up their own ether and everyone that's always been being sold almost up like a 10 to 20 percent discount every time I'm like you know the market price on like centralized exchanges so like you know out while reading through your documentation I read about this like Magnolia token and stuff looks these things that will help extend to buy liquidity can you talk a little bit about what these mechanisms are yeah so so liquidity is of course

the biggest the biggest challenge to get the liquidity running and so basically the Dutch eggs has in a built-in mechanism that will only kick in on February 18th and like in parallel to the DX launch and that will basically it's a simple simple strategy that is also trade earn earn it it's a new token and the the the and kind of it's there's no pre mine or whatever so all the tokens said it are purely created from trading on the on the Dutch X and for one for one ISA worth of trade you kind

of every time a new Magnolia token is minted and and the Magnolia token yeah is the token intrinsic to the Dutch X and it we have this fee this liquidity contribution so now you can think all right from each option the fraction is is taken in the in the order of magnitude of 0.5% so in something that's somewhat comparable to fiy 0.5% is taken out of this option and it's like put into the next option as an incentive to start this option so

so basically this is this liquidity contribution is put into the next option and will be distributed among those who participate in this option so if you have a lot of Magnolia you basically have to pay less in oil for this liquidity contribution but you still benefit from others paying this liquid liquidity distribution because a contribution because it's always distributed among all traders okay so so that means if I'm like a market maker I do a lot of trading I get a lot of Magnolia and then I guess it's like when a centralized exchange right if you

trade a lot maybe your fee goes from zero point three to zero point one and so here also the fee goes from the disagree liquidity contribution would go down from 0.5 to you know I don't know what 0.1 or something - because I have a lot of Magnolia but then I still get the distribution each time for those who have less so it can actually mean that even if I sort of trade at the same price every every auction it that's actually profitable for me and then you ensure liquidity that way correct correct so the fee is yeah your effective fee is basically the fee rate or the liquidity contribution you are paying or it's plus the average

liquidity contribution everyone else is paying and if everyone else pays a higher liquidity contribution you are a net gainer off of that fee so you you pay a negative fee she wants it that way what if I just wanted to try trading with myself and just like earning back no Lea talking so could I create a bunch of like fake tokens and just like do auctions where I'm the only buyer and seller here we come for one of the reasons why we need to go so yeah so only anyone can add any token to the Dutch exchange protocol any time but only whitelisted tokens will generate Magnolias for specifically that

reason otherwise you create your sunny token and you have hundreds and supply of it and you make a lot of fake fake trades exactly and that's why the we need to doubt to curate such a whitelist but could you still have to sort of fake trading and generation of like me trading with myself yeah sure I mean as soon as you use the real token or but when token that's white listed you can of course well put it on the sell side but also put it on the buy side the thing or also I mean yeah you put it up for sale and then you participate yourself during the auction the thing is that doesn't hurt the Dutch X it would even benefit the Dutch X because you're

nevertheless providing real liquidity because or at least some extent so in an order book you can specifically fill your own order and then you I mean then you can even fake it by pretending or in some models you can fake it by pretending you broadcast this order but in reality you didn't then you just like matches yourself and you can't compete completely it's completely completely worthless to the exchange however here remember you are always or all funds are pulled together into into an option so unless like there's no activity and there's the only one putting funds up for sale if you then participate as a

buyer you also have to well give everyone else basically in this auction that price and if you want to make sure that you don't lose funds the bottom line is every trading activity provides real acridity for those who who just want to trade right but couldn't I so I find some token that nobody cares about I mean it's whitelisted right I mean some some people trading it but I'm doing like I don't know 500,000 per every cycle and I'm just trading with myself then at least that token will be very liquid on the Dutch exchange if you put in one 500,000 that means I or

random trader can like easily put in 10,000 and you are very very much incentivized to do not like keep surprise dropping too much because you risk your 500,000 so so you are like very much committed to give the 10,000 that that kind of piggybacked on your 500,000 order a very good price and because otherwise you risk that others can buy your 500,000 below below market price yeah I guess you could think of it like you know the assumption is that if a token was whitelisted there exists like some other someone else out there willing to buy or sell it and so therefore the Dutch X auction mechanism will work properly because of that yeah

or at least I would say there is there is utility provided by by having sufficient liquidity on the Dutch X so I remember a few months ago when we were in Berlin you and I were talking about like threshold decryption and stuff so is that something that's like in the current version of the depth X protocol is just like a future improvement No so that is diffusion diffusion exchange its own it's a whole topic in a way so the Dutch eggs should really be seen as demonstration and it's life now and everything to to say it's possible to do something fully decentralized and game

theoretically sound but it well I mean six hours days of course there's a big trade-off so we are working on a much more sophisticated exchange dispatch auction exchange using snarks for scalability using threshold encryption for two two combat like front-running and whatever but that's more still in the that's getting out of research stage and into development stage but it's at least nine months ahead or and until that will see the light of maintenance hiring is stressful let's face it it's a long

process of sifting through resumes and interviewing candidates without any guarantee of quality but it doesn't have to be this way companies all over the place are experiencing a new way of hiring with top-down if you go to their Trustpilot page you'll see that of the hundreds of people that have left reviews over ninety eight percent were four or five star ratings including one guy who wants to give his developer a bear hug that says a lot topped i'll gets all this great feedback because they focus on their clients and their top priority is quality they only accept the top three percent of applicants including highly skilled blocks and engineers one of these engineers is Radek Ostrovsky Roddick has experience as a lead software engineer and data scientists for Sony and Expedia then he discovered blockchain and he became totally consumed with aetherium

he worked as a consultant for the firm start on chain and his time-locked app when the top quarter consensus you port and identity blockchain hackathon then he expanded his reach through top towel he worked with a bunch of clients on projects such as smart contract development and a POC that leverages blockchain if you want to hire engineers like Roddick for your team go to top tail comm slash epicenter for a Norris trial a top tile director of engineering will deliver your next hire in as fast as 48 hours and you'll get $1000 credit when you decide to hire we'd like to thank top towel for their support of epicenter well let's move to the topic goes off the dow so why does the Dutch Exchange need it oh yeah on one level so

the data exchange is really meant to be the infrastructure component for etherium so for example many many smart contract systems need at some point the ability to just simply exchange one token for another or convert say they get some income in some token and they want to convert it in another token and and the Dutch eggs should be a mechanism also for smart contracts to do that so remember for example smart contracts they can't sign an order they can't have a spread g44 for to kind of to

participate on an order book so they need such a simple simple way and they still want to get a fair price and so on so it should be a infrastructure component and if it's a smart contract this smart contract can't easily upgrade itself or change itself so so the Dutch X needs to provide a high level of reliability extremely high level of reliability ideally you would have the guarantee that if you kind of use it you have the the very very high guarantee that in the next 10 years ideally in the next hundred years you can just use that thing and now you are of course you you can do a trade off so

it's either you make it completely unchangeable with no upgrade functionality whatsoever you just deploy the contracts are immutable which of course has the disadvantage that you can't prove it and you can't and like everything you every parameter you said mean evils things like this whitelist everything has to be like correct in the first first try and then you can never do anything about it the alternative is of course your centralized entity that can make an upgrade but then you also lose this strong guarantees because you now dependent on this central parties it has the keys to do it so we think now is

very reasonable or it is the most reasonable middle ground between it can still provide given that the Dow is widely distributed and has like 10,000 reputation holders it can provides those strong guarantees that you're not reliant on a single entity and a single point of failure if you want so but it still is agile and then and can make upgrades and improvements and yeah and provide a better better system and so you mentioned that the Dutch exchange has been running for six months so does the the TX Dao take over the Dutch

exchange smart contracts or can you talk a little bit about how this transition is gonna work so when we deployed to dodge X we we well threw away the key or that there is no way to upgrade it so the Dutch X instance that is life right now and main that will be in the in this form as long life on May night as long as main it exists and maybe storage rent will eat it at some point but whatever we have to deploy new one we have to deploy a new version of the Dutch exchange which as owner and the Dow will obviously be the owner and the owner has

yeah like the abilities to by these tokens to upgrade the contract and through the update mechanism basically do abjure changes so why can't you you know use this same mechanism actually forever where instead of having to have a proper upgrade path we just keep on leaving the old version of the dot checks sitting on aetherium and just like keep deploying new versions and as people want to switch over to the new version they can move their liquidity over to the new version right I think I think that would be a sensible strategy if if that thing would be its own like like Depp and and end-users would directly like trade on it and then the end users could just

decide to switch to the new version or or like stay on the old version however if you really want to build many layers on top and you see this this exchange more is again infrastructure component you want to build all the defy decentralized finance applications they for example those those things are the all the margin trading that leak needs needs the price feed and the data X by the way should provide quite reliable or hard to manipulate the price feeds they need a price feed they need a liquidation mechanism and you want to build smart contracts layers on top end

and maybe another smart contract layer on top and then only in application then it becomes really messy if if all of those layers and layers have to have their own operate mechanisms or then so III do think there is there are fundamental infrastructure components where ideally you can build on top of them and it have the guarantees that say that they will will run and be maintained for yeah will run and have continuous liquidity for for a long time and just just assume there would pieces fork and everyone would move to the new

one but there's one contract it's still running on the old one and then suddenly this the old one runs out of liquidity and it's then really not anymore a very reliable price price feed or you get the prices yeah all those things on the other hand though isn't this also can be seen somewhat as a security security vulnerability as well which like you know when we're doing like programming like you know if you're this is why you do package locking we're like you don't want your your underlying library should just like to swap out from under you break interfaces etc of course of course I mean absolutely so the DX tau is the radical experiment and

it has to prove itself that it can can provide this this level of reliability and it has proof has to prove itself on many levels so it has to prove itself the DX tower has to prove itself on a like technical level the contract needs to be need to be need to be but secure obviously it has to prove itself on a on a like yeah social or or on a game theoretic level that kind of the the the actions of the towers value system of the Dow yeah there are many there are many isn't and things that first need to be proven but eventually I would say Dow

might be able to to provide those strong guarantees that it that it like keeps keeps things going does updates does like stays on top of the total on top of the most recent technology but doesn't yeah but but again you are not dependent on a single actor but on this collective this is 10,000 people or maybe more maybe maybe to add add some thoughts on this so basically well for cruise is good so first two things for cruise is one only good for upgrades but it's not good for you know many other kind of decisions that I can make so it down can

make many decision at the fork a rule cannot make but I think more for cruel is good as a focal is a great governance actually mechanism it's the best centrist mechanism for decision that are very very infrequent so if you need to make a decision once in a year I would say that probably for cruel is probably the best governance mechanism but is but but once you want to make many many small decisions and now we can kind of like enter like what card is in including in the in the upgrade situation we what what do we call upgrade token whitelisting is talking whitelisting an upgrade do you want to fork every time you know the crowding decide about whether to you know to list a token or not so once you are starting

to speak about tens and hundreds and eventually thousands and tens of thousands of decisions a year then fork will just make absolutely no sense and you will have to have it out to make collect decisions at scale when I'm saying about at scale I means s scale in terms of throughput of decisions but then scale of throughput of decisions correlate with scale natural scale of the hotel so if you have you know thousands of people they will have thousands of ideas to execute on and that's something that's simply you have to have a Dow if you want to harvest that potential so like yeah I think that it kind of actually makes a lot of sense

so I've had this just like similar discussion a lot with will Warren from zero X about like you know does does your X protocol really need a governance mechanism and because my you know I was kind of making a similar claim there saying that okay look you can upgrade you can just launch your xv2 and then all of the real Ayres who are like you know can just point to 0 x v2 but I guess like sort of the big difference here is that work and my perception of that works for 0 X because it's centralized real layers and they can like individually just choose to point to the new version of the 0 X contract but if you're really trying to focus more on like the whole a larger decentralized finance ecosystem its kind

of hot you know who knows what the up like you know it might not be centralized three layers who are pointing at at the X tau at dr. X it could be like you know other decentralized apps that are pointing at it so it kind of you do need like a more coordinated system than you would in something like 0x for example yeah i mean i i i would i would even are try to argue that even in 0x I mean the minimal feature that you need which is maybe an upgrade once a year yeah I would say yeah I agree with you like like fork is just just as good but if it's also think that for 0x you couldn't think of many more things that you could do in the Sandra's fashion and for these you need those as well so Martin you mentioned this you know is

ultimate ambition right that something fdxtra could make ten thousand decisions a year or maybe more and I guess that ties into very much what we spoke a few last time right so holographic consensus and sort of you know the mechanisms of tau so can you explain a little bit how is that gonna work and and I was specifically curious also about you know reputation right there is this thing called reputation was just gonna have a key role in the TX tau sure yeah so so firstly reputation I mean it's it's it's a sensitive word and and you know some people interpret it differently and even

more so and when you compare it with rep a fogger so let's just clear the definition when we say reputation we simply mean voting power like you're the weighting of the weight of your voting is your reputation it's just a number and but the way that this reputation is is is you know is allocated to you can be anything you think of it can also be related to some tokens such as locking of tokens will probably speak about that but reputation is we just mean your voting power the second thing about reputation is to say so often people talk when they talk about reputation what do you mean and again that's very different from the rep token of augur what they mean is that reputation is not transferable now

it is partially true but then we need to decide what we mean by transferrable but I think there is what people usually not speak about is a more important feature of reputation which is relation is slash about it's reductive all so I can in fact while in the contract of like the reputation country itself it is non-transferable so you cannot transfer your petition directly from an address to an address you can do that indirectly so I can hold my reputation in a smart contract and then have a token owning that smart contract and then I can transfer that the ownership token to another address and indirectly transfer the reputation to a different owner so but still my

reputation score that is tied one to one and solidly to this address in this case the smart contract address can be deductible by the owner of the reputation system which in this case is the Dow so if I'm making something which is socially unacceptable the Dow can decide to slash my reputation and that's in fact that's a critical element I would even say boldly that I think that's the only way to fight with for example on chain bribery attacks so this is a this is roughly about the reputation and maybe just just really quickly about our graphical sensors I mean the whole problem or the whole the big I think the biggest problem of

that was triggering this line of thoughts is that well basically you get into a into a scalability problem right from the game justice justice just as much as you get to scalability problem with consensus protocol with blockchain in the same way in fact brilliant obviously you get a scalable scalability problem with the centralized governance and you cannot really it seemed naively okay you cannot make many decisions that are also resilient so this this this started kind of like the line of thought or graphic consensus which is basically allowing you to make decisions by relatively a small amount of reputation part of the Dow so that does they are

scalable but in a way that guarantees that that representative that that's sorry that small group is actually representative in the sense that decision made in those oops actually reflect what the entire reputation system would would think if they would just have the tension to consider those decisions so does resiliency so as far as I know as far as I know that's the only current mechanism I am aware of that resolve this the tension between scalability and resilience in the domain of the centrist governance and that may be also one element that brought our two projects together is that that is used through that this is the chief more or less through prediction markets so so you

have like prediction markets for the proposals that ask this question will the proposals will that proposal be yea accepted by the by the vote and that curves in way as a filter or you oh yeah as a way to to prioritize or like boost boost proposals so if the market has a high confident that is that this proposal will be accepted then it might be fine to lower the thresholds or these requirements for the vote mechanism to accept this proposal yeah maybe just the comment on that I mean for a long time

this this you know this big question was on the table and people have realized that governance systems you know the regular notion of governance system you know voting with static reputation they are relatively resilient but are very not scalable and the same time markets are usually no more effective but they are very not resilient you can easily manipulate them so the solution eventually was to actually combine the two so the decisions are made by voters by reputation holders only but then in order to scale their capacity there is another system in market prediction market of people who only make predictions they are not making decisions they in that case is in this in this manner it's it's a different

from who turkey the predictors do not make a decision but they just predict what the voters will say and by doing that prediction they basically scale the capacity of things that the water can decide about so I have a question here now Martin right like no this is all about creating markets for like everything and and you guys made the point that you know reputation can be sort of transferred right like it can be hope by the smart contract and then maybe that controls reputation then you could sell kind of shares in the smart contract I mean why not just make reputation like fully tokenize and transferable it seems like almost making

where they're naturally a market could be you don't allow a market or yeah I mean I mean the point so firstly the again the important point is less whether it's transferable non-renewable and as I said in some sense it's indirectly transferable so I'm admitting that's a conversation Martina and I had like for the past three years so it is transferable and but but it's it's deductible and that's really what matters it less so it's true that making it unchanged just like directly transferrable in a way kind of I just open it up more you know maybe potentially more opens up

more problems and we see we don't see the reason to do it to do that but it's not the main point the main point is the deductible and we I would say that you probably can transfer and then you can sell your application in a very very small scale like maybe to your brother but you would not be able to scale ibly you know have it like an on chain marketplace where you can you know buy as much reputation as you want or as much as purchase one so so that's it's similar to this situation where for example off chain you know people talk about bribery in those so often bribery is not is not I would not call it an attack vector so often bribery is something that is very it's very hard to

coordinate and scale up but on chain robbery is super attacker like it's a huge attack vector so you you want to make sure this thing are not scalable and on chainable if I understand correctly wanted to the main reason you're trying to avoid the transferability is so you have stuff be flashable and so if someone does something you know not according to social consensus they can be slashed by the doubt why not you know we have a similar problem as well in the proof of snake world and we solve this using on bonding periods where why not have a system where you know it's untrue if you want voting power you have to bond the tokens and then you have to go through a long on bonding period but once they go to the unbounding period then they're

transferable again as isn't that also a potential solution this is this is an equivalent solution and I'm just work representing is just just more generic than that so basically one of the way so in fact they're actually the relevant way the relevant way for the X now but more generally one of the way to have reputation is indeed locking some tokens so you look some tokens and then reputation story is simply the number that reflects how much voting power you got from locking the tokens and and then you can actually you can play with it with a formula much more generally for example it can be the amount of tokens that you locked but it can also be the amount of tokens that you locked time the time that you lock it for or many other formula and more generally you can

also have reputation system that are not coming from tokens so yes the answer is that it is equivalent but much more general than that and well maybe to jump there in that is actually one of the one of the main mechanisms how the reputation of this DX tau will be distributed so one thing that's super important to us is we fed up or we we tried to set up the the the initial distribution of of this reputation or the ownership or if you undertake holder ship of the Dow to be really broad and

to be kind of this a fair decentralized no no no pre mine or no no kind of pre allocation to gnosis or to to Dallas Texas two things or three things you can do so one is trade on the Dutch exchange and earn those manolio tokens that will distribute 50% 50% of the reputation roughly 30% will just not graffiti exactly 30% will be given to those who lock down tokens and that will be all tokens so we expect a currently a number of like 50 years see 20 tokens it will be whitelisted on the Dutch exchange so

any year see 20 tokens it's wide listed and traded on the Dutch exchange holders of this token can just like lock down this token for up to a year and depending on how much values they lock for how long they will get fraction of that 30 percent eight percent to 10 percent to ether the same for just locking down ether and the last 10 percent will be auctioned off for Gen tokens that's the the Dow stack tokens so the Dow will start having those gent oaken's and they are used to kind of subsidize governance mechanism so in a way the Dow

will pay out those gent oaken's for successful proposals or more specifically it will use those giant tokens to incentivize the prediction markets or to incentivize for people to make predictions that or can find good proposals is there a cap to the amount of reputation like so what is the initial supply of reputation because it seems that to me that like the 50 percent that's distributed by Magnolia as well as the 30 percent that's distributed by locking ERC 20s both require the whitelist but it seems that the whitelist doesn't exist

until the DX now exists so it seems to be like a circular yeah it's one of the few things we like unfortunately have too well just predefined and so yeah we have to predefine the whitelist we basically tried to do where the the it's somewhat random but the top or most of the top 50 maybe we can extend it 200 tokens and if anyone wants to be on the list they can contact us and then we will make sure that it's also added but I mean we we have to like it just it just worked for us because we have to evaluate each token and is there is there is it actually a real token in the sense that

I mean it took it is in some way it can be an attack vector if there's one malicious token then then someone could grab way too much yeah yeah if you're going to put your sunny token and then control the sunny economy then you you you you you maliciously generate a lot of magnolia and basically wipe up the value from no Lia so so that yeah we want to make sure that there is no sunny tokens on the at the beginning and then that that will be the guard for later on yeah do you need price Oracle's for each of these tokens as well done well that's exchange actually this is really interesting because it's it's you're

just now seeing how two systems use each other so one system you a system a uses B and this is B uses a but this is just the beginning we already have in mind you know I have three four five systems that we would like to attach to that and we already see like the bi-directional interdependence of them and that's that's really the power of unchain dubs I mean that they could really emerge and and you know integrate with each other and keep the centralization and that's I think that's something that we haven't seen before that's that's also the powerful theorem so what what about the you know economic value of the reputation token like what it does it have value and what will drive its value

so yeah let me make this outrageous statement I think there is a small small chance but I would probably go on record and say it's like one well maybe not exactly what was it one percent chance that the dig style will be the biggest organization on earth in 10 years the biggest organization means like control the most resources or yeah control the most resources so Kenny can you can you expand it that justify that what will

that look like I mean that's an outrageous statement which is of course great but right right I mean I mean I think that we need to like like separate into parts so we really need they here to speak about the potential of Taos and and I think the way Matt Tom and me and my dad jump in anytime she doubts are really probably the next year the next big big like step forward in in in ways how humans organize so I like this quote that dows might be as important as the invention

of the firm in the 16th 17th century because they they are yeah in my expectation or our expectations the old the only mechanism that allows coordination strong coordination between 10,000 up to millions millions millions of people and so we think those are significant be significantly more efficient in in in in decision-making in in processing processing input from from yeah 10,000 1 million members in in

coming to decision so this may be overused term of collective intelligence and stuff like that so that's I mean probably talk about more about that but that's roughly the general idea that there is a good chance or it's small its I mean it's still a small chance but there's a good chair is a chance that the doubt will really be the next evolution in will replace firms is kind of the most powerful things for for humans to organize now we can talk about why might sadik's now have a chance to to be the first style that kind of achieves that scale or it kind of makes

those through puts those large achievements and we would say the timing finally might be right so I think with the doubt two and a half years ago we already got got an idea of like how things can explode and go wrong of course but but but I mean this beside that kind of going wrong part it already for those who were close to it it was it was magical kind of what what happened one once this was what style was created and suddenly all teams in the space were like looking at this Dow and trying to

interact with us down and become part of the style make proposal supposes down it was this huge magnet for I mean this was really just a period of five weeks I believe already right I recall it correctly but again it gave already an idea of what what what would might be possible and yeah the dick style in a way does the more conservative some somewhat more conservative approach in the sense that it doesn't like start with a big token sale but it starts with this yeah big reputation and distribution period but it is I mean it might decide well it will be up to the tower to decide to to do a token sale or other forms of rate

raising capital once once its life so it has the DX now has a full power to do anything that's that's possible on aetherium right now and that's much much more than than two and a half years ago so this towel can well it can't have dollars this is a trivial one but we have now died and all the stable coin cyst I can host well host website and in control content so we have E&S and IP vessel can host a controller domain and and that alone kind of means the business model of of let's say Bloomberg and and TechCrunch and New York Times

I mean basically most of the value of those three companies is just captured by their website or by their or by by kind of their their their kind of their ability to publish information that is kind of curated by them there is not much more the style can can take all a lot of a lot of the smart contract systems that that are developed are open source it could deploy them it could it could mine I mean projects could decide to on purpose handover upgrade ability to the style because they want to give up their centralized control they they

they often do have so yeah there's very few maybe I can just edit that so like I guess why why did the X now can be can be so big so I think I mean I'm slightly repeating and echoing what Marty says but I just be more pissed specific they claim the bold claim about doubts or expectation is that they can be sort of like super scalable organization so the problem of centralized organizations is really that they they do not scale well meaning that they can they can scale but when they scale become less and less effective so less and less if you wish effective per person and this decay factor is really you know it's really

strong and you know every time that you invent new technology you kind of like allow to stretch somewhat that factor and then you know we went from firms to AmeriCorps / Asians but still the pay that you're paying for scanning is very very big so very big organization are very ineffective and we believe that thou the centralized organization actually can keep effectivity when they grow and maybe we don't know we will see but maybe they can even increase effective it just like network effect they can increase the effective ET per person as they grow and if that is true then those two corporations will be the same thing that network effect you know in the early internet days where two previous apps so

for example a network effect based social media to previous old media they just took over because they become more effective as they grow and they completely become pre-madonna dominant in there so there is expectation the Dow's will basically in a way eat up the domain of production in some sense and then the second thing to identify is that because of this exponential network effect I think then there is there is just a enormous advantage for early movers so basically that that is to say that the first dial that will be successful in that sense that it can super scale itself effectively will

probably be the biggest eventually at least biggest in its own domain so then the last point is just to ask whether we are ready whether whether the technology is in place in this in the sense of making it able to scale up and whether its its technology is ready in terms of not having a huge breakdown of course we don't know and that's why you know that's why Martin is saying just 1% there's so many things can get wrong but we want to say that the technology has matured so much in the last few years that there is some chance some non-negligible but small chance that things are ready to scale up without a major breakdown and if that happens in the premise that those super are super scalable will just

see that the first Dow basically eating up its own domain and then you can ask god but what is this domain so I would say that the DX now is really deify now it's decentralized financed ow that check is just you know its first products first asset but there are so many tools that you want to decentralize that can be decentralized financial financial tools and if DX Dow succeeds I would I would expect it to be the basically the the largest financial organization in the planet you know without some of course everything is you know these are these are the the pink the the the hopeful scenario but but but of course I and everything cannot go wrong but I think definitely we are

trying to argue that the technology has made such a such a big mileage in the past few years that the DC is possible okay this is a super fascinating so thanks so much for explaining this now in in the traditional financial world where we have banks right banks can get to a certain size or like you know different companies can get to a certain size and I guess the biggest companies you know maybe they have like a million employees who had something like Walmart now you've made the point right that the effectivity to some to some extent decreases right so this tends to be this kind of limit like we don't have companies of like super enormous or you know much more enormous size and then

the other thing is we have things like antitrust law and and some government regulations that say okay we actually have to make sure that no company you know totally dominates a market now with what you're saying if what that's true right that actually there are network effects around the dow and the efficiency increases as it grows I mean what's the ultimate outcome here is the does this mean that there would be if if it turns out like that and let's say defy ends up being you know financed ends up just being eaten by decentralized finance and then you have this defy Dow that you know completely consumes defy like what is the ultimate outcome here right so I want to clarify

something I mean the problem so yes one problem of companies that they cannot grow above a million people let's say but the problem is harder if the problem is that not only they I mean even in million even in 100,000 they are not not not effective and they are not effective because the interest incentives are not lying so the incentive of the owner of the company or the you know other influencers of the company well it's the owner or I don't know the the the biggest stakeholder or the CEO or the Board of Directors means their incentive in the instead of the stakeholders and the incentive of the employees and instead of the clients all these sentence are not well aligned and that's why it's not effective and it's not

effective I mean you can look at it from it from it from affectively point of view it's just not effective like be more effective but it also look it from it from you know more social point of view it's not but then you know I don't want to get too much of subjective you know terms like just but it doesn't serve the incentive of most of the people that are involved in that organization that's the point and and if a dhow can maintain effective et at scale it also means that by definition that it can maintain in the alignment of interest at scale and if that I mean all of the trust laws and regulation that you need to have in order not to have one company controlling the market is because that that company is controlled by a single

person or maybe a few persons some some some of these huge companies actually controlled by a single person and then it leads to a such a distort of alignment of interest of 1/2 billion a literally 1 2 billion and and here we have if if we are right in our you know in our wild guess then then basically that that that body can take over the market but in a way that maintains the line of interest of all of those billion people involved so you don't need to worry about the trust laws you basically get what you get at the end you simply get and that's all what does about you simply get a very well effective and you know in a way

fair but very fair is built into effective coordination between a 1 billion agents around trade interest but um like you know in modern most companies today like no don't employees also have like a lined interest usually they have stuff like options agreements and whatnot or and even like you know something that things that aren't even traditional companies I got you know there was some news last year about like uber and airbnb trying to distribute equity to like what are currently they're contractors so you know could we could it don't we already see this shift to words like especially in the 90s what you know with the big thing that

happened in the 90s was like executives started getting paid compensated primarily in equity rather than salary and so we or do we not already see sort of this shift towards incentive alignment even in traditional companies or you know 21st century companies like uber and airbnb absolutely I mean absolutely I mean it's just actually strengthening our claim this transition from centralization to decentralization this transition from a huge distortion of US interest a lot of interest into more equitable or I don't know balance or whatever you call it alignment of interest is evolution it is absolutely an evolutionary transition it's the it's the devil mystic evolutionary transition and we see that

transition happening for decades and the only thing is that each time it new technology is coming in it enables you to set up a you know a higher level of that coordination and installation alignment but we also experience that the human grid you know wherever there is a way to take over power you know so you had like system that kind of like started in in course of the centralization but then some there was some power construction that could resent relies them and we've seen that over and over again and I think and in that sense I think the blockchain has really changed the rules in the sense that it allows for technology that in a

way maybe cannot be captured I mean of course we we need to worry a lot about that and make of the and that's all that's one of those things that can go wrong of course all of the game theoretic you know rules here that the system can won't be able to be captured that at some point it's really no frontier in that sense I'm another question I have really quickly about the reputation token is you know doesn't the non transferability in in a way maybe limit the potential future decentralization of the system because like you know a lot of tokens today are like pretty centralized in their distribution but the idea is that over time market

mechanics will help decentralize them but if we don't allow reputation to be bought and sold on like public markets how do we expect what if the initial distribution that comes out next month is like super centralized what what is the mechanism for resolving that evenly so first of all I would say if if we if we don't achieve like at least a sufficient level of decentralization and I would say that you can for our eternal goals at least that 1000 participants ideally 10,000 participants well the Dow will not be interesting it's one element the other element is if it gets like this sufficiently decentralized initial distribution of

course it needs to like have much more reputation holders over time and there are already ways built in that of course new reputation is issued so one one thing that is by default built in into the protocol is anyone can make a proposal towards this Dow anyone you don't have to have reputation if that proposal is accepted by the Dow you will gain you will get some seven reputation and we just like today did the math roughly I think the numbers we or we were trying to set those parameters how

what what all those should be and we roughly kind of said and if the if if the Dow runs successfully for one year and successfully means like they're constantly proposals they're constantly like accepted proposals then after one year it should distribute another 30 percent or kind of the new 30% disparate reputation in in this first year to those who made those proposals so theory also the Dow could you know decide to print a bunch of new reputation and then auction that off on bocek's correct correct I mean well it could do that or

I mean it could it could also just decide to continue like incentivizing like trading on the Dodge X if it says okay there's not enough liquidity then it will just do whatever whatever whatever things is is useful to grow the Dower to grow the ecosystem it will control over time but just just chime in I mean again we said that there is an assumption here we said that more decentralized is better so if that is true then if the Dow will even if even if it is you know that's say that if the first phase of distribution was you know just mildly successful and rather than the expected one thousand you know reputation holders we just have 100 but

the things that if those 100 believed in that the end of the Dow if they believe that this centralized is good they then have the incentive the interests to keep on this reputation so they can you know they can tell you so many other ways and they just have the incentive to grow and grow that that Dow secondly there is also the mechanism of delegation and of course is another way to kind of like you can have it's kind of like a mild form of transfer ability of reputation that can be retractable or not retractable depending on the conditions so yeah just to say that definitely this in translational rotation is important and we more so we're saying that it's evolutionarily advantageous and and thus will happen and if not in the first Dow

in the second now that will make it better I I guess before we wrap up I'm curious so it do you see you know if the Dutch if the DA style becomes this defy Dow you also think that the in the future maybe something like enosis prediction markets would be managed by the DX style so certainly yeah so so I mean we we are like we are not yet going all in on the hundred the DX now but if if it would like turn out to be a diode that gives kind of the guarantees like we will trust the doubt that it would make

reasonable decisions then of course if we have any smart contract system that that needs or that needs to have some maybe parameter change upgrades we would probably always give that power to to the yeah to the dig star because again we we think platforms are more attractive if they are decentralized it's more attractive to build on top of it design first platform we want to build decentralized platforms and that's all that that means we have to give away control and we think the DX Dow or something like the DX that was the right thing to give it to I guess I have another question sort of related here so

is there a role optic no the G no talking somewhere here yes so the G note well no not-not-not in the in the DX tau so or not directly yeah not in the DX tau and again that it was important to us that that yeah dig style should not be a nossa style there is right now role for gene Oh in the Dutch X and that is something super interesting to like watch so right now I described this liquidity liquidity contribution

mechanism and Magnolia so that's one part so you can like have a lot of Magnolia and that gives you an advantage by paying a little less in the critic contribution and effectively gaining field and the other thing you can do is you can use our and that's kind of or that was always is always the idea behind gnosis Geno that you lock down Geno and you get free credits and we call them out pre like to two and a half years when I was last on the show as it was called with still but now whatever so right now in the DX Dowell uses owl so you can pay part of this liquidity contribution and also roughly that means

if you have to you know and all you kind of get the slight advantage similar like you can get the advantage with Magnolia and will be super interesting to see what what the dow does with that so in theory the dow could fog out um gino just to say just to be precise I mean work out in the sense of luck check not even I mean that we don't we want that would I wouldn't it wouldn't even to change the whole contract it can just it has the ownership in an ability to change the logic and basically kick out do you know but then we also believe that there is actually advantage of the Dow to maintain it maybe and we'll see how it's for fun you know how it plays out but maybe there has incentive to be

aligned with ignosi economy right so kind of the the the the way we envision it is that there will be those those many or reputation holders offices there will be token holders to start to do a larger extent of of all the different token projects and they kind of prove that by locking down token so ideally the DX tile will have like part of the knows community apart of this your X community a part of the whatever call them I don't know status and many others so ideally the the Dow will have shared interests with those groups and

we would see gnosis as a company as like someone interacting was this Dow and and probably once in a while and making proposals to build stuff for that Dow and ideally that I would see that as valuable and therefore not don't fork out you know but it's it's that is definitely in the risk I guess we are taking if you believe in decentralization if you believe in giving up control yeah that's a consequence that you give up control and you risk that you lose control cool well thanks so much for coming on guys it was

really really interesting to speak about I mean I also remember you know back back in the day we did about the Dow when that was happening and and I I remember that you know incredible momentum and excitement around that and certainly it so we saw obvious back then even though this was such a primitive attempt of the incredible power that does have so if you know finally we're at the point where this is kind of coming back and maybe if a much different level of maturity that's something incredibly exciting now we're gonna have of course links to a bunch of different stuff but probably some listeners do want to get involved

and you know participate in the doll do you guys have some maybe final words to a pointer so what should people look out for what's a timeline here so one final word is the thing is risky those if unforeseeable consequences you can lose everything you you you kind of and so on so if you do it with that expectation then well one when it I mean definitely the the Dow steak channels in the gnosis channels are chance where we you will get relevant information DX Dow dot dowse tech dot IO I believe is is will be the website where from starting

February 18th this is this initial distribution period of the of the reputation will start and you can there do the different actions like locking down tokens and so on and get of course all the relevant information and this period will then this period will go for 30 days so for 30 days starting February 18th yeah you can do all the actions to you become part of this Tao and then there's like just in two weeks like cool down or kind of initiation period and then starting

early April the dollars life and and and develop its own life and maybe just one one last comment so with gnosis we made we obviously yeah obviously gnosis in the obstacle like kicking off is Dow but it's really important to us to to make tears this is not an Aussie style so we already made the the pre commitment and we will make this announcement a few times we will burn all bridges on April early April so basically once this once this initiation period is over we will we will basically

say gnosis involvement is over for now gnosis is often is over maybe eventually we will then start again like in interacting with Dao as described before but at that point we will basically say either this thing develops its own life and kind of does something out of its own or it will die and we will have to die we won't we won't do anything so we will we will close our github repository will look closed kind of the communication channels and we really want to make it should develop its own like ways where where does it communicate how do people coordinate that we think really I mean we saw it like projects like like like well

obviously Bitcoin that it helps that at some point the creator steps back and and and allows the thing to become to be not limited by the creator basically yeah maybe to add so of course as Marty says like dog stuck in osseous channels are are open and although it is like I said we were you know Bernie goes all bridges and and and now second doses will not you know will not drive we've just been exist knowledge but will not drive not drive the Dow once it's alive it has a life of its own but there are some places I mean so firstly there is

there is a forum that we're setting it up for that and again we're not we don't want to have any ownership of that forum what we're setting up a forum where people can speak so it's it's the dow talk not org when you can already go there dow talk dot org and right now well of course right now it's not live so there's no no discussion but we you know people can decide on their own to have a discussion there secondly you know we're building the whole stack so in that sense you know we will the contracts and the protocols and you know in more layers of technology but at the end of that stack there is an interface which is called alchemy which is right now under the domain alchemy note down stuck at i/o so that's an interface that

could be you which you can operate and participate in in the dow but again we have no wish to have a control in that interface and in that sense there's there's already a bunch of other alternative interfaces by independent actors that are being built up to also serve as gateways to the dow but anyway you can you could define you can participate in that dow through that interface and of course they participate in the reputation bootstrap period to get reputation yeah i would mention that that is i would recommend everyone looking at the the genesis down so that is the dow stack or dow that's running

right now and you can its of much more limited I guess in scope and but it's super interesting to see like it currently is like 120 people tongue maybe and it's super interesting already to see or to feel like it it's developing its own life it's developing its own rules its developing its own value set and you can there yeah it's a simpler and earlier version of the protocol but you already can get a sense how the dig style then might look like right so if you go right now to alchemy no Taoist Aikido I hope you need will find the genesis top right now there is only one doubters Genesis now it

operates in under the alpha version of this stack and the interface and the protocol everything it's clunky it is slow it is you know it has a bad UX it's you know everything that you wouldn't like for a product and yet you know we just launched it completely annoying just like completely quietly with 50 people and now you just grow 225 and it's completely making actually stuff produce 200 proposal out of which I think 60 something has passed almost sounding proposal there were documents few interfaces modules browsers three meetups like thing that we haven't you know suggesting Rosalee we haven't thought about and we know we could not you can definitely not I guess it's it's

surprisingly an effective way we kind of like fueled we funded that Dow it wasn't enough experiment and I think it was a super effective way to together return on that on that fund so this is just the sandbox it's a prototype and very soon in this q1 before even the DX now launches we will launch the the system in beta it will be completely different world different application much you know much more slicker fast design many more features and so on so forth so but yeah so we are we are we are waiting for the beta cool well Martin and Martin thanks so much for coming on I'm really

excited to see how this all turns out sounds like an amazing experiment and yeah I'll be following it closely so thanks so much for joining yesterday thank you so much thank you for joining us on this week's episode we released new episodes every week you can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and if you have a Google home or Alexa device you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of the epicentre podcast go to epicenter TV slash subscribe for a full list of places where you can watch and listen while you there be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released if you want to interact with us the guest or other podcast listeners you can follow us on twitter and please leave us a

review on iTunes it helps me behind the show and we're always happy to read them so thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week [Music] [Music]