#244 Anthony Lusardi: Ethereum Classic Cooperative – Accelerating the Growth of ETC

Transcript

[Music] hi welcome to epicenter so it started with the technologies project what evolution thank you my name is sunny Adorama and today we have on with us Anthony Luce Rd who is the director of the etherium classic cooperative Anthony glad to have you on the show hey sunny thanks for having me yeah so can you go ahead and introduce yourself and you know a little bit about yourself how you got involved into space and yeah

okay great so I first got involved in cryptocurrencies not in a very in a very typical way so in about like 2014 I was bending you know 10 or 20 bucks at a time on dodge coin read coin a bunch of crappy little coins where I was like they're gonna pull a Bitcoin and go way up and I still actually own that $10 worth of dodge coin and so at the start I was just kind of like a lot of people they just hear that there's easy fast money here and use short term traded and everything's great but then I started actually reading a

lot more about blockchain itself and what it gives us and I got really interested in it far beyond the trading aspect of it and so in about 2015 I heard about aetherium I looked at it just a little bit then the crowd sale kind of happens without me even realizing it about three to six months after the crowd sale ended is when I started to actually actually really looking at a theorem and really getting interested and joined the etherium community so I was just on the subreddit so I was posting a lot I wasn't really doing anything though and any sort of

official capacity I was just a big fan and after you know the DAO hack happened and the doubt refund happens a month later and then I've been working on ET cie mostly in a volunteer capacity up until February of this year and the February early March when I joined the EGC cooperative and now I'm doing etc' full-time and so what were you doing were you doing any development for the etherium codebase prior to the the fork and the da no I wasn't doing any development I still don't really do development

I do program occasionally but those are either my own projects or they're very small things I wouldn't consider myself an EDC or a theorem developer I see and so what was like your experience during the dau hack you know were you if you had you had bought into the Dow what was like were you watching it as it happened what was that whole experience like for you so I didn't buy into the Dow for a long time I think I bought into it about a week or two before the Dow hack basically iPhone mode in just a tiny

little bit the reason I didn't buy into the Dow initially is because I do program occasionally and I didn't look at the code at all I just saw that there was this super big super complex project being launched on a blockchain where you're not supposed to be able to change it after and the code seems like it had been written very fast and very rushed so I just thought to myself there's probably bugs here and I'll just sit this out and wait until that part gets fixed and yeah that was my interest in the Dow at the time I thought it was really cool I thought it was great to be

able to give the community a in a way to invest in this fledgling ecosystem it's just a fortune it have played out the way its it and what were your thoughts about sort of as the as the etherium community tried to pick up the pieces and came up with the idea for the fork you know what were your thoughts about it then were you already against the fork when it was proposed by the foundation or is it something that came later on yes so I don't know if the foundation would agree that they proposed the fork that's up to them though it's argue but I was completely against the fork at the start

I didn't think that a fork would happen at all to reap to refund the DAO mainly for two reasons one aetherium in all their communications were saying that this is an unstoppable blockchain and Coda's law and all that fun stuff and then in the Dow contract itself it basically said the code of the dow supersedes the written contract whether or not legally that's enforceable is rather an interesting question since you can't expect people to be able to properly evaluate the code of the dow for most investors but at the same time

I just I couldn't I couldn't understand why we wait you know for the Dow and do this refund and potentially cause damage to the blockchain when previously we all agreed that even if the even if the Dow contract they didn't say that we all agreed that these are the rules at the start of the game we can change the rules in the middle of the game because that's unfair to some people who are playing by the same rules right cool and so obviously you know you weren't the only one with this viewpoint there was a number people who shared that and this is kind of what led us to

this existence of its here in classic you know so let's fast forward a little bit a few months ago the etherium classic cooperative was created could you tell us and not you're the director of this organization could you tell us a little bit about what the etherion class of cooperative is what its mission is what is the goal etc yes so actually the kind of correct that's slightly the etherium classic cooperative started back I think in April of 2017 but it was rather understaffed and so when I joined is when it started to really take off and what the theorem class what the EGC

co-operative is it's essentially an organization to fill in where we have all these different pain points so for example you may have maybe parity has I actually just submitted a PR this morning where they needed a little support for EDC there and somebody to check and do something so I did it there's a lot of community management that needs to happen and needs to be done so we do that there's more awareness raising that needs to happen so we do that we are planning a etc' summit in September of this year in Seoul South Korea so we're managing that there's a lot of things where people

kind of look at these blockchain projects as if everything is grassroots and everything is these good happy feelings but really you you need money and you need people working behind that in order to get it so I'll go into later why et Cie maybe does things a little differently so that when you have money being invested in the platform it's not such that it's going to have undue influence Comparative Airy other block chains where it might be a bit more central but yeah we still need these things and particularly for EDC we've suffered on awareness simply because nobody has been

doing anything to improve awareness every a lot of other blockchains have a group or a set of people that help with that an EDC largely because of its origins and initial lack of funding fell behind in that aspect though still actually has maintained its lead in a lot of other areas so when you consider like you know what you described seems to be sort of what the role of the etherium foundation is or at least is supposed to be so what do you can say that like the etc' co-operative is sort of like the you know direct equivalent to the theorem foundation but for the UTC community sort of so I would say the

one main difference is we don't do everything we don't do the majority of the development that's handled by etc' dev and IO HK and we don't really like to involve ourselves with that part too much unless it's something like parity needs some help and it doesn't fall under the purview of somebody else et Cie dev of course also ports code and writes code for parity - so I don't want to take away from that but what if the arm Foundation does is they kind of do everything for aetherium they do all the awareness and marketing they do the programming they do all the event planning they do you know all all

those different grants to different people who are involved and so on et Cie we try and do it differently like we have etc' labs for example that now does grants or initial funding for for startups on that are running on et Cie we a theorem et Cie cooperative than is what does some more of the awareness and community stuff and then the various dev teams do the other part and of course we have volunteers that also do some moderation and other things but we try and keep it a bit more separate so you could imagine that all these

pieces are all individually and independently run whereas for a theorem foundation it's all the one cohesive whole and there's positives and negatives to both of those approaches obviously so you know looking looking back now you we've had the year in foundation for a couple of years and you know we can certainly look at some of the successes and failures there in your opinion one of the things that with this organization you wish to maybe do differently or to emulate from the theorem foundation from the etherium foundation I don't know exactly what we're trying to emulate here we're just trying to

accomplish the same goals as a theorem foundation like coin foundations e cash and arrow I don't know if they have a foundation but whatever they have we're just trying to fulfill some missing roles you know that I mentioned but there's no there's no light there's no set thing that we want to do there's no sub mission it's simply to get people aware of et Cie using et Cie and helping out wherever help is needed for et Cie kind of you know covering any any base that's not covered like providing leadership yeah that's that's fair

that's a fair enough and it's cooperative so levy actually where is it structured as a as an organization so currently it's an LLC we're applying for a non-profit status and hoping to get that approved closer towards the end of the year and that's where we want to be where we're a functioning as a non-profit and able to help develop et Cie in a way that is in doesn't have specific commercial interests you mentioned that we have all of these like multiple teams and stuff could you

look give us like a quick summary of like who are the players in the etherium classic community what are like some of the major dev teams and such yes so we've got a bunch of different teams first of course I want to shout out to all the community members a fire oh the edge and a whole bunch of others that I probably don't have time to mention there they do a lot of stuff for etc' that just goes unnoticed for the most part so they're really important to us even though they're not you know on a specific team they're just son team et

Cie but as far as the teams go we have etc' dev that's lit led by Igor artomonov who has been involved in a TC since the start they do a lot of the core development for e TC so Sputnik VM which is learning I know you're a big fan of they've developed that and they're doing emerald projects slash SDK which is essentially a tool chain to to enable developers to more easily work on et Cie without having to roll everything yourself right now every blockchain you roll everything you need yourself and so they're doing that and they actually

just hired a great guy Darcy Reno who's doing a lot of the day-to-day product project management so they're a team in total of about I think ten people right now and they're looking to double towards the end of the year had 20 so they're growing pretty rapidly and producing a lot for EDC then there's IO HK which of course is led by Charles Hoskinson and he's dedicated a group of people for the past two years as well since he was involved since the start and they're developing things for ET cie - I'm actually waiting to hear on what their remaining roadmap is I'm actually told there's

going to be some surprises from them at the summit which I don't even know which is actually kind of fun because I don't know everything about ECC and it's great that we're that distributed to reach that point and but yeah they've so far developed the Mantis Klein and then they were working on integrating ECC and cardano's so they could swap currencies between each other so that's really interesting then beyond that we have etc' labs who is the one investing in startups they're doing seed funding for them and in exchange for a small

percentage of the company you know giving them office space mentorship and all that nice stuff so I'm really looking forward to see what comes out of them and then we also on the et Cie cooperative side we have not only me but we have a gentleman by the name of Christian Zhu who's in China and he's essentially doing the same stuff I do on the western side of the world he does on the eastern side of the world in China Korea and Japan and yeah that's those are the main teams I don't think I'm forgetting anybody of course we also have you know parity develops note software for et Cie - it's honestly the software that I run the most of I

probably have about a dozen parity notes and as several get et Cie notes - but yeah shoutouts to parity for being such a great team yeah I mean I know like 60% of like the node on earth you in classic are you been running parity node so like I think they've done a really good job of like it like I feel like if they hadn't built in and like continued their support with you in classic like we won't have have like this month this many nodes and people like even aware of a theorem classic if like you know one of the major clients wasn't running it well another one I've heard of is the etherium Commonwealth or I think in classic Commonwealth well is that also one of the like main dev teams so they're not a

dev team they up until recently maintained classic ether wallet and classic mask classic mask they've sort of stopped maintaining or halted maintenance on and then classic ether wallet is still maintained by one of their members and yeah they don't do any of the core network development though they did some of the side wallet stuff and we they were particularly necessary helpful at the start when we weren't sure if my ether wallet was going to support et Cie and that type of thing now it's obvious they have and support a lot of other

coins too but yeah that's what a theorem Commonwealth has been involved in but now they've pretty much shifted focus to kalisto so they don't work on as much et Cie stuff anymore I also heard that meta mash will be soon supporting if you're in classic as well that true yes hopefully so there's a PR but damn Finlay obvious justifiably said that the PR was too complex and we need to break it out into different PRS for different parts of the features so we need to do that and then hopefully we'll be able to get e TC into meta mask what's it like having so many teams

working together in tandem I mean is the is the cooperative playing a role there and sort of doing some kind of product management or is this happening organically amongst the teams the co-operative is doing organic project management most definitely okay so yeah it's fun it's there's a there's a lot to keep track of and then there's you know we're working I'm working with Darcy and Kevin who are my main contacts on both et Cie Devon IO HK to streamline the process a bit you know there's still a bit of uh there's still some friction that we're working out but we're we'll get that solved but yeah right now since

March when I started it's been it's been a fun few months getting started up and ready so you talked about friction one one thing that I wanted to ask is you know regarding the the etherium community for those of us who don't actually work and like built Co it'll build stuff and like our coding you know what's work where's their overlap with the if your community the broader human community and where are the sort of friction points tell us about you know the interactions there was that like yes so I wouldn't say there's that much friction between etc' n-ath I think when it comes down to any blockchain or any

sports team or anything else any political party you have this small core contingent of true believers who believe that anything that isn't them is bed and they have a very outside outs oversized voice and tend to influence a lot of discourse online but I would say for most everybody on the etherium and a theorem classic side well we don't really agree on everything and yes some people are a bit more combative and some people are a bit more friendly there's not as much

animosity anymore I think there was a lot of fighting at the start because it was like kind of going through a divorce there was a lot of bitterness on both sides but we've all we've kind of gotten over that and now I'd say we're even okay ish friends we're actually at the ECC summit going to be having Virgil Griffith and Bob summer will of aetherium coming and talking about you know working together more and Bob I'm sure is gonna be talking about being nicer to each other so you were recently at an con in Toronto and you spoke there

I believe I read a blog post where you said that actually these were like italic and some other key figures in the ERR community came to your talk tell us that what was that like for you to be there at the conference what was a reception what was your talk about first of all and what was a reception to it yes so the talk was about just how very similar et Cie and ETH actually are so when you look at us code wise we're very highly compatible and interoperable same with a lot of other aetherium based software forks and there's this kind of thing where because we formed our own

different groups we kind of stopped collaborating and working with each other which seems rather unnecessary because you have these open source projects and it's kind of like you know somebody went to your github repo and forked it and now is maintaining a whole separate codebase when maybe you don't need to for every single case there are probably are cases where it's necessary and makes sense but there's a lot of where it's just a natural thing of we became each each other's other and so my talk was alone that it was also too update everybody there on where aetherium was and I mean where et Cie

was in the sense of its development and community and that type of thing and overall the reception was great everybody was welcoming there were maybe two or three people who were very standoffish and that was a little weird like I would walk into a group and start talking to people and there were two people who would always find a reason to leave but other than that everybody else was great I'm very happy that they had me Virgil was the one who invited me to his conference and that's also why Virgil's you know of course invited to our conference now and but at the start I

got I can say I was a little nervous I just figured that I didn't I really thought most people were going to respond nicely to me and not have any issues but in the back of my mind I was like there's one guy here who is just a die-hard aetherium true believer who is going to try and start an argument with me so I was prepared for that and it never happened so it was actually great to see cool well could you tell us a little bit about this etc' summit I know those one last year as well and unfortunately I was I really wanted to go I couldn't make it you guys are doing another one this year so can you tell us a little bit about you know what about

the some and where it will be what is the sort of the goal of the summit like what do you hope to achieve by getting like everyone in this community in like one geographical location for a short period of time what's the what do you want to see come out of that weekend or week as far as the e.t.c summit itself goes yeah we're holding it in Seoul South Korea on September 12th and 13th the reason we picked Asia and particularly South Korea is because we want to do more outreach internationally when you look at a lot of crypt currencies a lot of stuff tends to be

based in the US so we wanted to go somewhere else first for our conference there's also a lot of trading activity on e.t.c in South Korea but I feel like the trading out activity actually outweighs the actual knowledge of e.t.c and other cryptocurrencies so I think it's important to inform people that yeah you're trading these things but here's why they're important beyond the fact that you can maybe make money on them and that's not an endorsement saying you can make money on cryptocurrencies you can also lose money but what we wanted to do too is bring together a lot of different people so

etc' obviously doesn't have the same level of funding as a couple other block chains but we do have a good amount and we want to use it responsibly where it's most important to be where where the impact of it is the biggest so we don't want to just do something where we start a gigantic fund and throw money everywhere we want the best bang for our buck here so what we're doing is we're pulling together the developers we're pulling together general users we're pulling together a lot of businesses and we're pulling together people interested in the financial aspect of e.t.c as well and presenting talks that at the very least all them should appeal to any

general audience and then each audience in and of themselves has some talks that may have extra appeal to them so for example we'll be going through the developers road maps will be EDC labs is going to be talking about their new projects eg C dev is going to do live demonstrations of IOT and then talk about Emerald project and sidechains and then we have a couple talks on why maybe immutability matters and how Forks work you know some of the I don't want to say ideology but for lack of a better word the ideology of blockchain and then some

of the finance stuff on kind of market dynamics and eat ECG which is the publicly traded derivative of e.t.c that traded on OTCQX right now and we're even going to have a really nice talk on Asics and why they matter and are they dangerous being given by another company Lindsey that's interested in producing EGC Asics and yeah there's a lot of a lot of stuff going on cool so like you know it seems really cool that this is we've had a look bringing together of the etherium classic community you know you mention all these different people that you know we're

gonna have developers there people who are interested in the financial aspect people who are interested in like businesses what do you think it is that like brings people into the etherion classic community in the first place like is it normally just like speculators or you know is it more like me or my reason was mostly like idealistic reasons and stuff what do you think is like usually the what is the driving force of the growth of the new classic community or the current community I don't know if there's one specific thing that draws people like you said different people have different motivations for doing things and I think

that's very good for e.t.c because we're trying to be this very general blockchain slash mission-critical computing platforms where if you have something important you can use it so I don't know if there's any specific draw for etc' but there's a lot of things where EDC appeals to a lot of different people for different reasons so we've touched a lot on the community aspect of ADC but I wanted to sort of circle back now and come back to the project itself and any at the origins et Cie was sort of created out of the Dow

hard fork the original idea was very much idea ideological and this was the difference in ideology where parts of the theorem community were for the fork and one part of that same community was against the fork but now that we're one year I think when you're and 1/2 M it's actually the two-year anniversary coming up ok right so that's time fly that's right another two years in both projects sort of have their own development communities and their own product product roadmaps and potentially even you know as a product as a as a developer product very

different volume compositions so I'm interested in hearing from you you know how do you sell et Cie to someone say someone comes up to you and says hey I want to build a next killer daph and you know I'm considering all these all these platforms right whether it's you know hear him and he plastic or it could be like Cardona know it could be eoz whatever like how do you sell a GC to someone as the platform on which to build their DAP okay so one just to go back to the dough I would actually disagree and say that the split was really close to 5050 there's just a lot of people willing to go along with the hard fork because it's easier and more

advantageous in other ways and that's up to them and their own way you know whatever is most valuable to you but how do I sell etc' well for a lot of blockchains right now what they do is they focus on the end user and within etc' and maybe within like the Bitcoin community for example you actually see this thing where that to us and I don't want to disparage anybody else who's focusing on solely the end user right now but that's kind of putting the cart before the horse so what a theorem classic wants to focus on is machine to machine communication and IOT types of things where you can take

the benefits of blockchain and use them you can use blockchain to your benefit and do it in as seamless and transparent of a way as possible so on your side as the developer you might need to invest some time in making sure that these things run smoothly and laying the groundwork and your back-end rather than using solely the et Cie chain itself as the backend for everything because right now what we see is there's a trade-off when you're programming distributed applications is that if you want high degrees of distribution and decentralization then you sacrifice the

total processing power you know you have the processing power on any any really distributed trustworthy system your processing power isn't very high when you go to something like iOS then your processing power can be a lot higher and you can maybe use a OS as your back end but you end up dealing with the whims of the 21 validator nodes and so there's trade-offs there but etc' is there if you want to have trusted computing and then do it in a way that you know it's trusted and distributed but you don't need to do everything on main chain so

one of the main things that EDC is going to be focusing on and I'm sure etc' dev could speak to this much better than I could is side chains and the ability to do most of your computation off chain gain your speed benefits therefore when you when you need speed and then when you need trust lessness you can use the main chain interacting with that in a seamless way such that if you have something on your side chain and you want it back on the main chain so that everybody can trust that everything's working right or being or that nobody can revoke it from you then you move back to the EDC main chain so really our core benefit there is that

you get a lot of control over the data that you need but you get trust lessness when you need it so is this something that you consider to be used what about a court differentiator them with ECC as a comparative for instance uh yeah absolutely okay I would say that for the most part when I see depths being built on eth they tend to be very very focused on the core user and that's not a bad thing but I think that focus right now is not going to work out because that focus puts them in a situation where they're

using ETH as the backends for everything and they're hoping that plasma is ready in time and deployed on main chain and working right they've essentially written something for a super slow database and they're waiting for that sequel upgrade to come and make everything work but right now with even minor mild usage of depths on any truly distributed blockchain you end up with very high fees and a very long wait time so etc' is aiming to avoid that issue I'm sorry just I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the focusing on the core user on the end user so

they're focusing on things that the end user can go and use immediately and then they're using the ethereum blockchain as the full complete database for everything and that's not going it doesn't it doesn't scale block chains don't scale well anybody who tells you a blockchain scales well right now is selling you something that's not true and I don't actually think that aetherium is selling that their blockchain is scalable today they know it's not and they're working on plasma and other things to address that I just don't think that timings going to work out well okay I mean let's say there so perhaps Sonny has a bit more insights than I do on this but I mean from from from my perspective so a theorem is

working on on these off chain solutions as well so you mentioned plasma but there there are other projects that you could use with aetherium or you could use sort of as a society chain something like true--but for example to do complex computations how is okay of course these projects are not built by etherium but I think I'm quite sure you can use them with a theorem to perform computations more complex computations off Shane how is that different and how is etc' positioning itself as a better competitor on this front yes so okay obviously there are other ways when

I sell plasma I actually should have said Casper I mixed up my terminology it's just that plasmas using a type of Casper consensus algorithm so I got a little confused there but uh going back yeah there are other scale off chain scaling solutions the way e.t.c differs itself there is that we're going to do it in a way that it's very seamless so our off chain processing and EVM and sputnik VM all execute the same as the main chain the only difference is who has control to change those side chains versus the main chain so it should make

development on e.t.c very smooth but of course I'm not familiar with every off chain scaling solution on aetherium so I couldn't speak to and properly compare all them so you know I saw one of your tweets if you just I think a day or two ago was about like how augur is using like you know they just released recently and it just uses like an absorbent amount of gas to just deploy a contract I try to deploy a contract the other day it's like 6 million gas or so so is one of you know at cosmos which is where I work you know one of the our philosophies is that like smart contracts are really meant to be used

just sort of like that as contracts like they're meant to be this like one-time-use thing what are you really need scripting capabilities and then what do you want to build applications you really want to build them on these like application specific side chains like side chains that are designed not with a VM or something like that for specific use case what are your thoughts on this and then is the goal for the etherium classic side change to focus on EVM side chains or these application specific side chains I agree with your analysis they're exactly like 100% but the goal for ET seesaw chains is to do

application-specific side chains so plasma for example is a side chain for aetherium that attempts to be one holistic whole and achieve finality throughout its operation whereas ET see if you have you know your auger you launch it on your own side chain and then if you have your golem you launch that on another side chain right and so to build these application specific block chains are you guys developing tooling around this for example like you know I know something about this project called Emerald SDK I don't really know too much about it

is that kind of in the realm of like helping people build applications specific block chains or you tell us a little bit about that yes so et Cie dev could speak much better to this than me and they actually have a a very early demo github called sidekick is I think is the name of the repo where they have some of the documentation on how the side chains will work but yeah emeralds project is intended to be a way to wrap up whatever et Cie dev produces such that you have these very easy to use very portable and consumable objects that let you do everything from and I

don't want to overstep my bounds but I would assume manage a side chain to have your have a cohesive UI design to manage Hardware while it's addresses talk to the different networks and all that all that stuff so yeah I think Emerald SDK is going to be a whole cohesive way to tie all their tolling together but I'm sure they'll also be talking about it a lot more at the summit and we'll have a live stream of it too if anybody wants to watch and learn before we start go continue talking about site change I think the design of site change really depends heavily on

consensus mechanisms and so you know one thing I've always noticed within the if you're in classic community is that you guys tend to be much more Pro proof of work than let's say the general aetherium community and could you explain a little bit about why that is is there any thought like of like you know switching to proof of stake in after maybe you know let's say maintain a theorem switches and like it was a resounding success is this something that if you're in classic would be interested in looking into them these are obviously my views only why we say proof of work for one like you kind of

touched on proof of stake is in very very early stages when it comes to blockchain the most reliable longest-running consensus mechanism that we have is proof of work so we want to stick to that now because we don't know the emergent properties of proof of stake and we if we're going to keep this mutable blockchain we need to proceed with caution and yeah that's that's the basic reason why we don't want to do proof of stake right yet if we saw proof of stake running for a good 5 or 10 year me personally if I saw a proof of stake running for a good 5 or 10 years without

any major issues or centralization then I would be more apt to throw my hat into the ring and say yeah I think proof of stake works here but there's you know there's a lot of things with proof stake that create potential centralization issues because for example a lot of proof of state consensus algorithms just and they involve having some of the base currency and locking it up so when you have a relative leave finite base currency even if even in an inflationary model you're not

going to be if somebody gets a large portion of that and most people aren't going to care about staking at all and not going to do it then if you get under my own assumption that's not based on any math if you get 10 or 15 percent of the total coin coin cap then you essentially control the network and all of a sudden your coins even though they have this individual value they've all of a sudden acquired this new property that is far far more valuable so if it was a billion dollars worth of coins

that you possessed all of a sudden those billion dollar coin billion dollars worth of coins might be 2 or 3 billion dollars to the right person who's interested or they might be so valuable to you in the sense that you have control over this entire network that you'll never give them up and you'll always be that one block producer so we see that right now on a lot of block chains like Bitcoin and et Cie and other ones where we're seeing some some mining pools having way way too high hash power and we want to get that down and more distributed we have the option to get that down by bringing in people who maybe they weren't even involved

previously but they don't require anybody's permission to join and start doing with proof of stake my biggest concern is that it becomes a very permissioned Network I hope that doesn't happen I want to see a permissionless 2 centralized blockchain no matter what it is but that's one of my fears personally a proof of stake right yeah and you know these are some of the things that we're trying to tackle a lot Kosmos as well with proof of work though you know within classic one of the things that like you know always been bugging me a little bit it's a little bit scary is that you the if you're in classic is the a minority chain on a certain hash algorithm which means

what I mean by that is like you know it has like less than 10% of the hash power of aetherium and which means a small coalition of aetherium miners can suddenly a 51% attack at there in plastic there's a cool website that just came out like a month ago that like show like how much it would cost to like dump to 51% and attacked different chains and a student plastic was like you know one of the top chains on that thing so what are your what is the community's thoughts on this and has ever been discussion of you know hard forking the perfect work algorithm especially now that there's rumors of like eat hash

ASIC miners I often know that there's one mining pool that has 46 percent of the hash rate which to me was a little bit I've shaken back by a little bit what I thought on this as far as 51 percent of tax obviously 51 percent attacks are always an issue for your network the things though that I think we need to remember about 51 percent attacks is that one if you get exactly 51 percent of the network cash you're still depending on some luck that your attack works I'm you it you're depending on luck in the short term so when you look at crypto 51 app they have the cost

per hour if you want to increase your luck you need to go for longer in order to act in order to reliably pull off your attack I don't know what the exact numbers are on there but I actually like looking a cryptic crypto 51 because it's very interesting I just don't know if the prices they have listed there affair but that aside 51% attacks are still of course an issue so there are different ways to handle it Minero for example when they found out there were a sick miners they went into the hard fork they had a couple reasons for that one of them being kind of ideological in that they want to resist

a six for as long as possible even though I believe there does also believe a six on proof-of-work are inevitable the other one being technical was something like kryptonite is very a seqable I think some people who are probably listening don't realize that there's different levels that each of these algorithms could be a six at and kryptonite was one that could be really ace it's kind of like Bitcoin with the sha-256 and so as far as etc' goes we're not too concerned about 51% attacks for example even on crypto 51 you need a

twenty thousand dollar investment for at least an hour's worth of 51% attacks and you need to have if you're gonna 51% attack you still need to have a lot of e.t.c so the fact that it's rather expensive to acquire and that such attacks are difficult to pull off maybe not too technically difficult but particularly difficult in getting away with your stone goods when you consider every major exchange this kyc ammo most people that have access to that type of capital to reliably pull off a 51% attack are

probably better served by just mining or something to that effect and I think you see you know very very small networks get get 51% attacked but I don't think you'll see ones get it if there's not a two or three hundred percent at least surplus of available hash rate I think that's when you end up in a very dangerous situation and then as far as Asics go we don't think that the best approach is to resist them we think the best approach is to get as many ASIC

manufacturers working on ET hash mining so what we want to do is we want to get as many different manufacturers and mining pools using Asics as possible and producing them as possible because right now for example we have ET hash and the two things you could mmm reliably mine with this dagger hashimoto hashing this consensus algorithm is you can mine with AMD and NVIDIA cards if either AMD or Nvidia became super interested in mining cryptocurrencies there's your 100% control of the network

you don't even need both of them you need one of them to decide that we're producing mining hardware and they could pump out their own a6 and run them themselves so we don't think while GPUs are great right now we don't think that long term they're that great and they also waste a lot of electricity for the amount of hash rate they produce so we'd like to see a six which are far more efficient producing more hash rate for the same amounts of energy use or potentially less and those are my thoughts on Asics of I of course don't speak for the entire community but the majority are pro staying proof of work for a variety of

reasons I wonder if in some scenario like I mean of course as public companies Nvidia and other chip manufacturers have a obligated an obligation to make a you know as many profits much profits as they can if at some point it became obvious that by simply shifting all of their production rather than selling those cards shifting that production to mine cryptocurrencies you know one could demonstrate that they would make more profits than they currently are actually just selling the cards through like whatever gamers or whoever if shareholders could force them or not maybe not force but like through some

legal mechanism pressure pressure them to to actually like shift their business to a group remaining yeah absolutely I mean it's a it's a potentiality it's probably a little far out there because GPUs are such a reliable system but or such a reliable market for them but I could definitely see a situation where you know maybe they used they start to dip their toes into Jeep into ASIC manufacturer it's really not hard for somebody like an AMD or in a video to scale that up so you know 51% attacks are like one type of attack another like you know some eye related topic I wanted

to ask was I think I like you know I brought it up on Twitter with you a few weeks ago but you know recently there was this like bog in the parody client where they were essentially like literally just not even verifying signatures and you know in aetherium luckily parody was like you know it's less than half the hash power but on a theorem classic parody no minors actually make up the majority of the hash rate and you know that I said majority of the nodes as well and so I was like wondering like you know I found the within like a couple minutes and like you know I wanted to like try to see like you know could I pull off the attack on the testing at just to see

like oh did I actually find the bug and then I was thinking to myself like what happens if someone attacks aetherium classic on the client-side code um what is the community response to that so clearly we can tell that like if it was a EVM level like a smart contract bug the etherium classic you know philosophy is no that's part of the thing you should have audited the code there's that but does that reasoning also stretch into the client code is it the users responsibility to be auditing the client code and making sure it's bug free Wow what are your thoughts on this yes so I think it's obviously that that bug was crazy props though to a couple

members of parody reaching out and letting us know and informing in a way such that we were able to get the major mining pools updated once they were updated that you know closes off the vulnerabilities so I closed off pretty quick I couldn't believe it when I saw these messages though I was beside myself but yeah it was we got a pretty quick response there as far as that goes though the no I would say that if there was a blatant bug in a client software that that violates any of the rules the pre agreed rules of the network like

we're validating transactions that shouldn't be validated that under the de-facto rules are incorrect then no we should absolutely fork to fix that because you have to fix bugs and all software and bugs do occur it's just it's not there it's not the network's responsibility to fix a smart contract level bug that's the responsibility of whoever deployed the smart contract there are ways to deploy some our contracts in very mutable fashion says we're seeing currently with like Bank or freezing funds and that type of thing and there's trade-offs there but as far as the base system itself if

there's a bug in the base system you fix it even Bitcoin which has been a hundred percent of mutable since its start about seven or eight years ago had a buffer overflow attack that created billions upon billions of coins out of thin air they immediately forth the blockchain five hours later and achieve the longer the higher difficulty and that became the canonical chain and that transaction no longer exists so there's also precedent for that being an acceptable route and I would definitely agree with that type of route I wasn't good for the clothes today episode here I'd like to talk a little bit about your point of view regarding how etc' can continue to remain relevant

in in the broader ecosystem especially when aetherium is I guess taking up a lot of the mind share when it comes to sort of blockchains on which we could deploy smart contracts what are your plans here and what are some of the things that you can point to as indicators that UTC is and can and will continue to remain relevant in the ingress yes so I mean one big one might be the coin based listing one of the theory ET C's biggest issues that it's had to deal with for a long time is that it in my mind unfairly did not have access to

those Fiat pairs that a lot of the other bigger cryptocurrencies had access to and I think we're not we're not at any risk of losing relevance now and I think we're in a position where we're going to gain a lot of relevance we now have a lot more attention being paid to ET cie we have we're on every major exchange we are developing dev tools we're seeing partnerships we're seeing interest from ASIC manufacturers we're seeing et Cie dev for example starting some pilots with OpenStack we're gonna see et Cie labs come out with a bunch of projects

now I think we're only going to gain relevance and I think we're already a lot further ahead than people sometimes think we are because we were all conditioned from a very early age and blockchain to go look at coin market cap and compare market caps but when you look at the proof-of-work coins the top four are all of the coin base powa owns in in terms of volume and the fifth PLW coin is a theorem classic where actually a rather well use chain relative to many of them we do more transactions per day than Bitcoin cash considering the fact that we're account base and MB cash is

you TXO is kind of interesting that we even beat out that because being account base you have lower threshold there and yeah there's a lot of interest in activity in e.t.c now and now that we're able to increase our awareness I think we're only going to see us gain relevant rather than lose it and it's really great to see keeping this immutable philosophy going into blockchain because I think we need to reach a critical Maxima where blockchain has distributed itself throughout society and only at that

point are we going to be able to say immutability and that type of thing is guaranteed so I'm really looking forward to seeing e.t.c gain more and more relevance in the market cool so when we talk about point base is that something that they did on their own or was there some sort of interaction with members of the community with their lobbying being done for them to to list et Cie doesn't lobby it's coin like at all you see so many other cryptocurrencies they hop on your like tags and stuff on Twitter and ruin all your searches and TweetDeck but no we had no idea what was that it was on the 12th I think I just came home

that day and I was just up all night answering questions and talking to people and completely unexpected I don't remember what time I ate dinner that night but yeah no there was no there was no lobbying or anything that I'm aware of to get ezc listed I think they just looked at the coin itself saw that it had had a long history of existence saw that it did very decent volume relative to other coins despite not having these fiat pairings and all those things and then some made it up to their decision at least that's my view on it I don't honestly know so tell us what's the development roadmap you know for the foreseeable

future and where can people get involved if they're looking to either learn about need to see contribute to build apps on the platform cetera yeah so if you're looking to get involved in etc' go to a theorem classic org check out all of our resource links in our community links there you'll find discord channels telegrams everything to talk to us I personally am one of the admins of the discord so if you want to ever reach out to me or some of the et seeds of people where we're over there as far as the roadmap goes obviously we're going to you know build outside chains and we're going to have Emerald project to make

development easier and then beyond that we'll just have to wait and see there's from what I understand there are a lot of projects interested in et Cie so I'm looking forward to seeing what they are and seeing them develop great well Anthony thanks so much for coming on the show tonight it was great to finally dive into you see we've had as mentioned Charles on a few weeks ago view a month or two ago and we have some discussion about if you see but we've never really had a full-length conversation about it was great to learn more and looking forward to seeing what arises in the future yeah thank you both for having me

it was been a great talk and thank you to our listeners for once again tuning in excellent releases episodes every week and you can find us on iTunes SoundCloud or whoever you get your podcasts we're also on youtube so you can watch us there at youtube.com slash episode PC you can follow us on Twitter as well at f7c and if you're looking to a support show you can do some iTunes review that's a great way to get people to know the show and we're also very always very happy to see you but thank you so much every look important feedback [Music] [Music]