21Shares CIO: The Next Cycle Is Coming (What My Firm Is Doing)

Transcript

All right, you guys. We are live here in the tokenization tower presented by our friends at Plume. Let's give them some love, man. We've got Adrian Jay Fitz. Good to see you. Welcome to the tower, Adrian, the chief investment officer at 21 Shares. Adrian, good to see you in the city, man. How's the city treating you? Man, it's been amazing. Weather's fantastic. I'm having a great time. And thanks for having me as well. >> Of course, first time here in the Empire State Building, so it's good to have you. I just took some photos of the view, um being a little tourist, but yeah, it's a stunning office. You can be lucky. Thank you, man. Thank you, man.

Well, hey, it is an interesting time in the industry right now, that is for sure. We're going to talk We're going to talk high level on the markets, kind of how you're thinking about this, how your firm is thinking about this. Before we do, Adrian, you've got an interesting background prior to joining 21 Shares. Maybe you just kind of tell us a bit about your foray into being a portfolio manager and and an investor and kind of how that all came about. How I ended up in crypto, basically. I mean, yeah, my background is more traditional, I would say. Um so, I worked in mergers and acquisitions, like in an investment banking, management consulting, but also corporate M&A.

Um but always been close to markets and always had, yeah, a massive passion for investing. Specifically crypto, because it's always been the most fascinating one. It for me it's kind of like the perfect combination of real [snorts] technology and finance and investing. Um and therefore, yeah, I kind of Yeah, I actually bumped into crypto 2013 um because of a a colleague um from from university. And uh yeah, back then uh I I thought there there could be an amazing investment pitch. I actually asked my stepdad for some money. It took a while until he finally uh wired me a

thousand bucks. I invested and 2 weeks later, the market dropped like 70 80%. [laughter] So, um and I sold at the bottom. Um but I was hooked. I was hooked on Bitcoin, kind of lost interest, but then 2016 I when Ethereum came up, um I was back into crypto. Back then did it more out from kind of like passion, aside from my corporate job. Um but then 5 years ago, I thought it was the perfect uh opportunity to make it, yeah, a full-time job, pay my bills. Um and that's how I joined 21 Shares. And ever since been a wild ride. Great, man.

We just had Cathie Wood on the show and we were talking about kind of how her and her firm at ARK Invest is thinking about the space. And she laid out this kind of big four asset thesis, which is obviously Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, and then she put in Hyperliquid in there. And she she kind of spoke about these being her her kind of big three plus maybe Hyperliquid. And that with her uh ETFs, her firm, this was kind of how they were thinking about the space currently as far as like investable DeFi platforms is kind of what she called them. Um you know, when we're thinking about the space holistically, we've kind of started to get sectors, you know, in the space, right? You've kind of got this Bitcoin as this digital gold and everything else thesis or you've got

Bitcoin, smart contract platforms, and everything else at the institutional level. In the dealings with institutional allocators, with higher net worth clients, what are they truly looking for for from exposure to digital assets? Is it just a little bit of extra beta on their portfolio? Is there just like generally curious, your spectrum of interactions with um institutions, high net worths who are coming into the space and just kind of what they think, what the education is required? Just kind of give us a bit of a sense of like what that looks like.

There's a lot to unpack, I would say, yeah. So, first of all, I think I would agree with Cathie Wood. Uh I think we're we're very much aligned on that point. Um and it comes down it's the the first step is the classification. Um I think there's still a bit of a misconception. They see crypto assets as kind of like one asset like one asset. Um but of course, there are different sectors, different value propositions, and even just the nature of the projects are widely different. Um and that's where the education starts. And I think you laid it out perfectly. We always position Bitcoin as kind of like the monetary anchor of the entire asset class. So, of course, it acts more as a

digital commodity, a digital gold. Um then Ethereum, Solana really act as those, yeah, platforms for innovation, really the base layer for a lot of things that build on top of it. Um and then you have all the structural trends, all the innovation, decentralized finance stablecoins tokenization um that build on top of the innovation layer, how how we like to call it. All the different applications, all the different projects. Um when we speak to, yeah, traditional investors, that's kind of the first thing they need to understand, that those are different assets, different value propositions. Um what they always want is

they want to see how to value crypto assets. Uh and of course, you got to start with Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is the most challenging one because it doesn't generate any yields. And therefore, to put like a traditional valuation framework on top of it is is quite challenging. Um however, the story of Bitcoin, kind of like this narrative of a scarce asset, is much easier to tell. Right. Um Ethereum, Solana, or something like Hyperliquid, those are actually really compelling cases once they start to understand it.

Because once again, you have the staking yield and this could act all the transaction fees that are being accrued, they act as some sort of cash flow, and then it becomes much more of a um yeah, >> [clears throat] >> valuation that you can put on top of it. And that's what they what they like to hear. So, Cathie also came in and said uh her firm's uh base case for Bitcoin by 2030 is 730,000 and her bull case is 1.5 million. That's ballsy.

That's a bold uh claim. I mean, we can talk about timing, but I think in the long run, I would agree with that uh with the price target. Um if it's going to be in 2030 or 2035 or um 2040, remains to be seen. But I think what she actually want to get to is just uh the long-term investment case for Bitcoin. Um and it does take a bit more patience because it is about uh monetary debasement, the devaluation of of fiat currency, and this is not going to happen overnight. Um but eventually, it will materialize. Yeah. And and recently, I don't I don't know if you've seen the Etherealized team put out this

productive money thesis for Ethereum. Um and and they were actually saying that Ethereum might go to 250,000 based on the backing of this productive money thesis. You're smiling here. I'm not sure how much ETH you hold. >> [laughter] >> Um I found that to be uh very aggressive and very very obviously long-term thinking with this idea of this asset that has a a a different consensus mechanism than Bitcoin and potentially a longer-term solution to the security problem that is superior to Bitcoin.

Do you Do you guys care much about the dynamics of the consensus designs, the security dilemmas between a proof-of-work network, a proof-of-stake network? Do you guys Do you guys think like more about kind of how how Bitcoin may solve its uh problem of being not not uh not not valued high enough to be worth mining, thus a large drop in hash rate, a large drop in mining pools, thus a much less secure network? Like Like do you guys apply this framework of thought to also reach any sort of similar conclusions with regards to ETH being potentially a better investment long-term than Bitcoin? Or do you find these types of takes to be

um very kind of like small-minded and kind of narrow rather than just understanding that all of these institutional flow is coming to Bitcoin and that Ethereum's just kind of gaining that ground? That's a tough one. You're putting me on the spot. I mean, it sounds like I have to choose a camp. Uh 200k? 250, man. 250, that's so aggressive. That's so aggressive. I thought Tom Lee is already like at the highest in regards to ETH price predictions, but 250k is uh I mean, what would the market cap look like? I mean, out of this world. 50 trillion, okay. I think it might take a while.

I understand where they're coming from. Of course, you have kind of it being, as you said, productive money, but it also has some sort of store of value attributes because in regards to smart contract platforms, it is the most decentralized. So, you could make that case. Is it going to rival Bitcoin? Pah, it's hard to quantify that. I think it comes down to more of a philosophical question. Um I love all crypto assets, but nonetheless um always Bitcoin first, and I don't think Ethereum will flip Bitcoin anytime soon.

Um When it comes to the research itself, of course, we we take that into account as well. I mean, we talk to traditional investors, usually we don't have to go that deep into the technicals. Um of course, we we we we we try and explain the difference between proof-of-work, proof-of-stake, what it means in regards to decentralization, security. What they actually care about is just the yield, the staking yield. That's what they're most interested in. Um but usually those conversations are very high level and that's something that yeah, we from the research team uh look into internally um and also kind of have fun conversations just like this.

>> Yeah, yeah. Uh you know, on a similar train of thought then, is is this quantum subject something that Absolutely. >> larger institutions, allocators, or high net worths are asking you guys about? Like, "Hey, you know, I want to allocate a couple million bucks to Bitcoin, but I'm hearing about this quantum issue. Like, is this something that I should pay attention to?" I guess like what I'm trying to get at is people are saying that there's a bit of a narrative headwind here on the quantum side when it comes to it being uh prohibitive for these larger allocators. It's getting in their way. It How accurate is that? Is it something that they're really concerned about?

It comes up quite a bit, I would say. Um I don't thought I don't I don't know if it kind of stops them from allocating. Um but the question, yeah, it pops up quite quite often, especially uh in the bear market. Which is kind of a bear market phenomenon, of course. Narratives like this, uh they they they they they usually are a bit more aggressive and fueled during uh bad price performance. Sure. But nonetheless, uh they always ask about quantum computing. And I think we should take it seriously. And I think the the the crypto community does take it seriously, as well. Um I mean, we've seen a lot of proposals and and conversations within the Bitcoin

developer community uh with BIP 360 and 361. Um Agree or don't agree, I'm just happy that something's going on and the discussions are starting. Um and the same for Ethereum and and and Solana. This this needs to be tackled in the long run. But we don't see it as the immediate risk. Um You met Eli, our global head of research, as well. Um our team, they did kind of like a also a very deep dive uh research report that we're going to release shortly, um where we kind of interviewed a bunch of different uh experts from the field just to understand and grasp how how imminent and uh yeah, how how big of a threat it

is. Sure. I think the takeaway is so, yes, we need to take it seriously, but it's not going to happen overnight. >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um so, it was quite funny, actually, um when the kind of four-year cycle timing was happening in October-ish last year, September, uh a lot of larger, you know, people call them suits, people call them institutional allocators, were saying that it was dead. In hindsight, it looks like the four-year cycle is on. You guys put a 2026 kind of outlook and report out stating that, you know, looking at ETF flows, you know, one could infer that this typical kind of classical expectation that a lot of the investors

in the space have kind of come to either grow to hate or to love or to both is is likely not going to play out. And I think the way to think about it properly is that it's just going to be accelerated slightly. I think people right now think it's going to be accelerated drastically, such that we go from to new highs like directly from here, for example, by summer, fall. But the way I'm more so thinking about it is that it's going to be accelerated by a matter of 100 days or so, or a quarter or a quarter and a half, which by those numbers would put us around new all-time highs sometime middle of next year, uh sometime around June or July of 2027, bottoming sometime sooner than, you know, Q4, more like end

of Q2, early Q3, that, you know, in the next couple months. But no one has a a consensus around this right now. That's what makes a market. I'm curious, are you still standing by your take that that it that that the cycle is broken? And maybe you could just illuminate how nuanced you guys are in thinking about that. I would say it is nuanced, but in regards to that prediction, I would give us a five out of 10. Okay. Because just looking at price action, it perfectly matches the four-year cycle. It's almost unbelievable.

>> isn't it? It's a simulation. Uh no matter if you have institutional adoptions, big asset manager, the price action looks the same. Yeah. Uh which is crazy. Um I think where where we are right, and that's kind of like where the nuances kick in, is of course the market structure is different. And that structural demand from the institutional side is something we haven't seen before. So, I would totally agree with you. Um the cycle still needs to play out to perfectly match it. Um but of course, just comparing it to the to previous cycles, a lot has changed, as well. And this could kind of imply that we might see um yeah, a a a different scenario in the future. Yeah, for ex-

for example, stablecoin supply has made new all-time highs, yeah, which has never happened any previous bear market. Absolutely. And and just the same with the ETF flows, cuz they they are very constructive, actually. I mean, despite prices being down 50% uh in the US, I mean, ETF Bitcoin holdings, so they were only down like 5%. So, it clearly shows that some of those traditional investors, they're much more patient. Um and they they hold through this volatility right now. Um and in Europe, even more striking, since the all-time high in October, we actually seen almost a billion in net new assets. Uh so, we see continuous uh new new flows coming in.

Um and that shows a bit that they're starting to behave a bit more anti-cyclical, which is quite good. >> Yeah, and then on the on the Europe versus the US versus Asian front, I'm curious how you're thinking about the regulatory climate as it affects the uh demand to invest. Obviously, I mean, we've made a rule on the show, we're just not talking about the Clarity Act anymore. >> Oh, that's good. >> Until until it's passed, we just I mean >> Yeah. I mean, it's just I think it's overblown, anyways. I think it's really important in the long run, but I don't see it as that massive catalyst that would bring us out of the the bear market. But let's close that topic. On the European side then, what is the What are the more important, innovative

regulation uh you know, proceedings and developments that have been happening? Is there anything that you're particularly privy to or that kind of your European client client set are paying attention to as as potentially kind of like a green light to invest? Or is it is it is it in a similar spot? Is it a different spot than the states? How how How do these two uh continents kind of you know Yeah, of course, in in in Europe, we kind of had the markets and crypto asset um legislation, MiCA. Yeah. Um which kind of puts a a regulatory framework around crypto assets in in the EU.

Um and it's being implemented right now. The good thing is from the 21 Shares side, it doesn't really change much for us. Of course, it legitimizes the underlying asset class, but ETPs uh in Europe, they have been around for uh almost eight years now, since 2018. So, the regulatory clarity in regards to those traditional uh vehicles has been has been quite clear. Yeah. Um I think what stands out is maybe the UK.

Because in the UK, for a long time, we had a um ban on on retail. And that has been lifted uh end of last year. So, the FCA actually lifted the retail ban, um which is good to see. And I think it comes with a bit of pressure to the banks, because they've seen that a lot of potential client money actually flows out to, I don't know, crypto exchanges. And of course, they want to make sure to internalize all of that money. Um and therefore, the FCA finally got more comfortable and lifted the FCA uh the the retail ban. And therefore, we also have uh ETNs uh listed there.

I think other than that, in terms of regulatory What's maybe interesting is um UCITS. Sure. Cuz for instance, in Europe, you don't have crypto ETFs. You don't have a Bitcoin ETF. Because in the EU, um they ETFs, they're under uh UCITS regulation. And what that means, basically, is to have an ETF, you need to fulfill a certain amount of diversification criteria. And of course, that's not possible on a single asset.

That's why you also don't have gold ETFs in Europe. They're also called ETCs or ETPs. Mhm. Um and it's the same for uh for Bitcoin. Um nonetheless, within some of those UCITS funds, um you can now have kind of like those bigger uh diversified uh funds, you can now have up to uh 20% uh Bit- crypto allocation, as well. Um so, we see more crypto flowing into those more traditional vehicles, as well, which is quite good. And that obviously unlocks a lot of uh potential institutional flows. And are you seeing more activity and interest on the uh passive ETP or ETCC or ETF side? Like,

how how What's the split in passive versus active um products? Because in the in the traditional world, active products were very popular, yeah, but struggled from a fees perspective, being quite prohibitively high and we're just now seeing some inception of more actively managed crypto ETFs at least here in the states. What's the kind of spread between passive and active products and do you do you kind of have any take on how this you know market share changes in the coming years too?

That's a very good question. I mean active ETFs they I would say they're taking off just recently right over the last couple of years you see the JP Morgan Pimco all coming out with their actively managed ETFs and they're gaining much more traction. In Europe it's quite interesting. I would say the majority almost everything is still in passive vehicles. You do have so-called AMCs actively managed certificates but they never gain much traction. So if you look at the landscape I would almost everything is in still in passive ETFs or ETPs. And would you expect that

to continue then? >> Potentially potentially. What's also interesting the first product we actually launched was a basket so it was the top five crypto assets by market cap cuz we always thought investors they might want to get diversified exposure. But it's actually not been the case until now um traditional investors they they they want to pick single trackers. They want to pick single assets which is quite fascinating. That might change in the future but for now they're clearly on on on picking their own bets.

Um when it comes to active I think eventually it will come through and we will see more actively managed ETFs and they will be more successful as well. Yeah because I think like investors want to kind of turn their brain off and allow a manager to allocate to a basket of assets you know based on the you know whether it's a risk on or risk off type of market. You know you can think to allocate to if you're just thinking about like the big three or big four you can think about you know allocating in a different fashion based on the market condition. But I can understand that you know look I just want to own Bitcoin or I just want to own ETH and you know that's it.

>> I think once they get a bit more comfortable I'm pretty sure they're going to pick some some actively managed ETFs as well but I think for now they they they still at step one. Um but it will come. It was the same with hedge funds it took a while until that took off but eventually people want to want to want to bet on people's performance. >> Sure sure sure. Yeah and the reason that I ask about some of the regulatory side in Europe and in the states and just kind of how I think about it is we've recently seen in D5 specifically on chain quite a bit of attacks and exploits and just kind of really insane insane you know situations unfolding and JP Morgan came out you know ironically you know like a couple

days after this recent KelpDAO exploit and said look this is slowing the institutional adoption of crypto but my my current you know way of thinking is I don't think it's really slowing the institutional adoption of crypto. These guys are coming in allocating to ETFs tokenizing their kind of non-speculative assets anything from T-bills to funds etc. and they're bringing it on chain and they're launching ETFs. I found that it was and I've kind of thought it's more of the retail people that are kind of becoming much more disoriented with the state of this D5 ecosystem that they've come to know and love and so I just wanted to ask like have you been fielding questions about that as of late in the past couple weeks like hey I saw this

exploit or hey I saw this hack like what happened should I be worried should I pull my money out what's kind of the state of that of that yeah? I mean we didn't get too many questions. Of course we were prepared internally kind of like providing sales notes and everything just to make sure if the question arises that we can answer them but from the traditional side they I wouldn't say they weren't concerned but maybe they didn't even know that that hack happened. >> of what I thought too. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. It's really like that. But I agree with you. I mean it's of course it's unfortunate with with with the recent hacks and even on my side when was the last time you used D5?

I mean I I use it all the time to like send our team payroll and to do >> Yeah. you know field customer you know client payments all sorts of stuff but like you know using D5 all the time it's been you know it's it's progressed slowly downwards over years. Especially compared to the old crazy times I would say where you were still like that. >> Yeah absolutely. I mean I was around during the Wonderland and Ohm it was it was it was fun it was definitely fun but I think those times are over and by the end of the day I look at the bright side of things um it kind of it exposes the the the vulnerabilities of of those projects as well in my

opinion and make them more robust in the long run. And if you want to become a bit more institutional ready I think that's the the the the the right way to go yeah. But it's just interesting to see that some of those even the the communication around D5 some of them go from decentralized finance to like on chain finance and stuff like that but I think what D5 really shows is just how capital efficient those protocols can be and I think that's where traditional asset managers look very very closely and see how they can use some of those concepts to integrate it into their operating model.

Just like a hyper liquid for instance I think I do think it's best example. Yeah. So so zooming out from like the internal ecosystem on a more of a macro view here folks are a little bit concerned with the lack of performance from the crypto market off the lows stocks going to all-time highs this AI trade this AI bottleneck trade anything that is a part of this AI supply chain getting absolutely repriced extremely high extremely fast. Honestly the entire global stock market looks and feels like a 2017 Bittrex chart. It's it's it's insane right? And so from the macro perspective you know thinking about the SpaceX IPO this open

AI IPO this Anthropic IPO these large scale liquidity events coming to the global market how how are you thinking about the duration of this AI trade right now and thinking about like these big events this year? People are saying that the stock market can't handle it. People are saying that it can and these are going to be huge huge winners. How do you think about this like this AI bottleneck trade right now and this kind of how long this mini mania can last? Well that's a that's a good question.

Everyone wants to know right? AI bubble or not absolutely absolutely. I think it's hard to tell. I think even here in the AI craze I take a lot of comparison to maybe the altcoin market. I would say maybe there's a bit of a hype and too much euphoria but I do believe you you going to have some companies that that will continue to outperform and I think there's still a lot of good bets to to to make. I think it's it might be too early to call the top Yeah. When it comes to that.

>> Well if the if the IPOs haven't launched yet then it's kind of like a pre-token project where the sky's the limit right? But I've been kind of formulating an idea that if these IPOs do kind of come through in Q3 maybe in Q4 but I think that would be probably the max attention on that trade and also the max um not pain but like max lack of attention and apathy on the crypto trade. And it's been like this before I would say. I I do believe kind of like the the entire AI narrative took a bit away from just yeah the the the retail investing scale in the crypto space. People just got so excited about AI and that's where they

put their money. Um I think I'm quite happy when all of those IPOs are over and maybe the AI market cools down a little bit maybe people are flocking back to to the to to the crypto market. >> And I've spoken to several investors about this and they've said that you know quite a few of these early investors into this AI trade are also similar early crypto investors. So I think there's like a thesis here that's going to start to look at like a reshuffling of flows from that AI trade back into well you know those investors aren't just going to be like happy they're they're going to be like all right what are we going to do next? And I think if crypto is in you know a semi-depressed state I think that could be a really nice setup for Q3 Q4 Q1 next

year as that you know trade kind of completes right? I almost I almost think of of these IPOs as like the completion of that trade. From there on out it's a whole 'nother investment thesis on it but until then it feels like all energy all focus is there. You know open AI is going to drop one model Anthropic is going to do this it's just Like on a weekly basis it's absolutely nuts what's going on right now. But I agree with you and then you're going to have some some some quality projects that might look undervalued on a relative basis and potentially we're going to see that capital rotation back to some quality project in the crypto space.

>> Yeah yeah. I'm curious how much you guys in the research right? I obviously spoke to Elliot about it you know a bit more in depth but there's a kind of growing you need to have a business what is your on chain business model? What is your token model? Are you doing buybacks? What is your revenue? You need to have clear transparent financial modeling for the public. You need to have, you know, these things starting to look more like equity structures with investor relations and quarterly calls and these like live streams that are happening and these these types of things, right? Like the space just generally maturing to look more like the equity market and I think a lot of this is driven by when you own equity specifically, you get some sort of wealth effect in terms of you know that

you know there there's a fiduciary duty to the shareholders and that doesn't really exist in the token market currently. I'm just curious your kind of more broad view on how that how you anticipate the token model evolving and the token market evolving and how much attention you pay to this because perhaps it's just a bear market phenomenon. Everyone is upset about their their assets and so they're kind of pointing fingers or perhaps this is like the start of a new era for the crypto market. >> Yeah. I mean, we always said fundamentals do matter also in crypto. I mean, let's look at the previous old coin seasons. They've largely been liquidity events, right? Especially during COVID, we we had so much money

laying around. We were just throwing at random projects and they all went up. Um and I think those times might be over because as you said like investors, they take a much closer look and they want to understand okay, are they actually revenue? Are they actually cash flow being generated? And I think that truly matters. I think it's becoming much more of an equity analyst approach where they want to see okay, the business model and the tokenomics behind that. Um even on the retail side, uh I think we we we're calling the BS a lot of times.

>> Yeah, of course. >> And we want to see some some some real use cases or some real revenue models. It's a show me the money market right now more than it's ever been. Yeah, which is a good thing. And I mean, look at some of those you could even make the case that some of the the the the bigger projects, if you look at the fundamentals, they have maybe have like eight active users. Yeah. Um but still billions in market cap. Is that justified? Of course, there's not enough to liquidity to price it correctly, but those are some of the questions that we got to ask ourselves.

Right. >> And I think that's where we really truly want to see okay, some true developer activity some thoughtful tokenomics, revenue models, actual projects being built and solving uh real-time use cases. >> And so perhaps as the 20 kind of 2017 cycle was led by Ethereum's emergence and the ICO craze, as the 2020 and 2021 cycle was led by the alternate L1 kind of new chain craze, then the 23, 24, 25 cycle was kind of L2s >> Yeah.

>> and a variety of infrastructure kind of like blockchain infrastructure. Perhaps it's this next cycle where the the leading assets are those that look like a business, right? And that those kind of lead the the market out. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think especially when it comes to the application, some of them might be more equity like. Yeah. >> And I don't necessarily think it's a it's it's a bad thing. Yeah. Um I think it makes sense. It's much more appealing to traditional investors. Um and that's how kind of like how you drive flows. Yeah. Yeah. Adrian, just kind of closing out with 21 shares at the forefront of a lot of this ETF and ETP growth as well as working with a lot

of these larger scale clients onboarding, you know, new investors into the space through your products. What what is the focus for you guys throughout the rest of this year? Obviously, it's kind of like a build year, right? It's kind of Yeah. getting your feet under you, be prepared for the next wave from a systems perspective, a personnel perspective. How do you kind of think about maximizing this time in the market which is quite a bit more calm than perhaps what you're used to to to reap the you know, the outsized outsized benefits of the upcoming bull. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the good thing at 21 shares.

Um and I think we're really proud in regards to our track record. This is not our first bear market. Uh we've been around for almost eight years. So, we've gone through bears and bulls and uh usually we know how to handle them as well. And I think that's that's what sets us apart compared to some of our competitors. And that's why we feel pretty much prepared. Um the good thing I would say compared to previous cycles is the interest is truly here. We're not fighting for existence anymore or for actual meetings.

Um they really they truly are trying to understand okay, how should we handle and deal with crypto assets, how should we allocate, how should we size them within a multi-asset portfolio? And in regards to media or traditional investors, private banking, we get so many requests and it all leads back to to to to education. I think that's really really important. We had a lot of unlocks in regards to regulatory clarity, in regards to institutional railways, um but I think the education is the last missing piece for yeah, some of those big allocators to invest in crypto.

Beautiful. But we obviously we are product issuer. >> Yeah. We're going to come out with uh more products. Uh we're here to provide access to make it very simple for for for traditional investors to uh get access to this asset class and therefore of course, we're going to come out with more innovative uh products and are here to spread the gospel of crypto. Awesome. Ladies and gentlemen, that is Adrian J. Fees, the CIO of 21 shares. That also wraps our show for today.