2025 Year in Review: Why RWAs are Taking Off in 2026 with Chris Yin and Teddy Pornprinya of Plume

Transcript

So it's a single LP into the AAA CLLOO fund from from Jamus Anderson through centrifuge and now they've got 500 million bucks sitting in there immediately skyrocketing to the number one asset right when it comes to to comes thing. >> My honest opinion is a lot of these general L1's L2s they basically saw something hot and shiny within Art of Aase. So they kind of pivoted towards Art of A. >> You guys had the most active addresses. So I'm curious what is >> who are the Plume users? Why [music] are they the most active? private credit market is not as squeezed and there's not as many cracks as people may think. It's actually quite sturdy and strong.

He does not expect any cracks first half of 2026 or even in 2026 in general. [music] [bell] Welcome back to another episode of Money Moves Fast, our premier weekly show covering all things tokenization, RWAS, and payments. This show is made possible by Polygon, the leading blockchain for payments and RWAs. Money moves fast is the convergence of Wall Street and digital assets. Now sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

>> 2025 year in review tokenization live on rollup TV. Chris Yen, Teddy Ponia, guys. GM welcome. >> G Plume, bro. >> GL, >> good to see you guys. Thanks for coming. Today's show is powered by RWAXYZ apparently. So shout out to those guys. They're absolutely crushing. Um great great tool. And guys, it's Money Moves Fast episode 14 powered by Polygon. An amazing payments chain. Fast, cheap, great payments, stable coin transfers. I'm sure we'll see some of that on today's show. It's the last one of the year. It might not be the last one of the year, but it's definitely the 2025 tokenization year in review. Uh Chris, uh Teddy, it's not your your first time on the show. Great to have you back,

friends of the show. Um, what do you say we dive in? >> Yeah, >> love it. Let's get it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Well, I'll I'll kind of tell you what we're looking at here on the screen. You'll see the first chart here. Um, what I think is uh most relevant about this one is this Janice Henderson AAA CLLLO. Uh, pretty much said we're going to go live and oh yeah, we're going to take the number one spot uh shortly thereafter. and kind of tested things out with like uh 50 million and then quickly quickly 10x that to like 500 million and and beyond.

>> I would just love some some insights from you guys as to the types of RWAs you're seeing get the most traction. I hear CLLO get thrown around a lot. Maybe you could just like unpack some of these terms. When people say AAA, what does AAA mean? CLLO, what does CLO mean? Give us kind of like the basics. People have been hearing about tokenization all of 2025. They want to know uh and get acquainted with it because this is a trend that we believe is going to stick around in 26 and beyond >> 100%. Look, it's a good question, a good point because RWAS are newer in theory, right, to crypto, but people don't really understand what these things are. I mean, look, even me and Tay didn't understand what these

things are for a while, right? We had to learn and figure out real time as things were going like what these things mean, how to think about rating something about asset classes. Big picture though, it comes down to two things, right? Risk and yield, right? And those are the two dimensions that kind of come back and forth. You have some sub things like duration and all that, but big picture you're looking at risk and yield. And the starting point for everything was T bills, right? Because T bills, you know, were the sort of dominant asset that RWAS were kind of, you know, positioned against for the last, you know, two, three years because the um the rate was high. So the risk-free rate from the Fed was, you know, five-ish percent give or take. So that means you could put basically any amount of money into T

bills and you could get a 5% return, right? Very very stable, very safe. It's completely liquid, right? It's, you know, usually these things are T+1, T plus2, which means you can withdraw and within a day or two you get your money back and the and the risk is basically zero, right? It's basically, you know, it is the US government going to default, right? And so very very straightforward, clean and easy asset, but as with everything in life, right? You taste a little bit and you want more, right? And that's kind of where things are going, right? You start with that and people are beginning to sort of want to ramp up on the APY and the yield and now we're getting into more esoteric stuff and we're seeing a bit of a spread. You have two dimensions. You have kind of moving up the ladder slowly

from you know T bills to things like CLOS's. We could talk about what that means in a second and you have other ones that are going straight to the top and now coming down and we're kind of meeting the middle. We'll find out where people coales around and what ends up being like the dominant story. But there are, you know, two sides of the poll right now, right? It's always like a bit of a barbell, right? And so you have tea bills and people are moving up a little bit because the T- bill rates also coming down, right? You know, we've all we've been waiting for the whole year for Jerome to get up there and say rate >> cut May 2026. See you later, buddy. Trump now basically. >> Hell yeah. The golden bull run can finally start, right? So that's what's happening next, you know. So as these

rate cuts are coming down, T bills are going down, right? The rate. So this 5% is down to four now to three, three and a halfish, right? And so that's going down. So people are now searching for new new yield, new places. And obviously you have to dial up the risk and dial up the uh duration in some cases. So CLO's are the next best thing after the T bill, right? So you're not getting a tremendously higher difference in the yield, but you're going from maybe five depending on the type of CLLO to a six or a seven, right? CLO stands for collateralized loan obligation, right? So these are still these are like fully secured assets. You're borrowing against something very straight safe and straightforward, very deep liquidity against them. So you can still withdraw a lot and put in a lot of money without

affecting anything. And you can still withdraw in basically one or two days for most of these assets. And that's what this Janice Henderson fund is. you know, it's a AAA CLO fund, right? So, what you can do now is put any amount of money. We see with Grove here, put $500 million in, right? So, it's a single LP into the AAA CLLO fund from from Janice Anderson through centrifuge and now they've got 500 million bucks sitting in there immediately skyrocketing to the number one asset, right, when it comes to to come to this thing, right? So, it's been a big move because now you're getting real six, seven% right on a $500 million asset, right? That's just not a thing you see elsewhere. >> Risk too, right, Chris? like not T bill level or money market level low, but like relatively low. And so we had the

stable watch guys on uh yesterday doing a stable coin kind of yield coin year in review, if you will. >> Yep. >> And we talked about how Sky has done an incredible job of diversifying their yield sources >> for sure. >> And how that is going to lead to their success over something like an Athena, which just solely is relying on the basis trade currently. And I think what you're presenting to us is exactly what somebody like Sky is thinking effectively and other RWA providers and then all obviously like like these funds. So just to be a bit more clear here and then Teddy I'd like to get your perspective here on the institutional fund metric side. So you know if you look to the left of the chart January 1 end of it is obviously kind of where we're at now. We saw effectively a rise from I mean you could

call that I would say a hundred million dollars or so in the in the beginning of Jan and then that thing quickly rose to the to a billion come August. So we 10xed or so from January to August 10xed. Then we did another 3x nearly from August to November basically until middle of November. And now it looks like we're about to go higher. Um, so if my math's not mistaken, that's a 30x. Um, [laughter] with that being said, Teddy, where does this go 2026? And what do you want to add to Chris's point just generally on the risk risk adjusted yield kind of uh dynamic happening today?

>> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think I think, you know, I think Chris basically hit the nail on the head, but you know, to be honest, what Chris said wasn't super obvious to folks when we started building out Flume. you know, the fact that you could literally deploy insides into these more liquid, you know, assets that are actually generating real yield back to users wasn't really a thing until Plume came around, right? I think people were, you know, yield farming, going between different chains, you know, deploying into different DeFi protocols. But as we've seen in the past few months, you know, DeFi isn't as safe as uh you know, it's crazy to crazy to believe because, you know, when we first started Clue, people were like, "Oh like Rabbas, like what's actually happened to my money here?" So um what we're seeing right now um and like you

just described like this exponential growth in RDAS is basically uh you know a huge information gap being filled in in between right like a lot of folks are finally understanding the assets that we're bringing on whether it's like private credit you know treasuries um all these different alternatives on plume but the biggest thing that you know we're doing differently is actually allowing permissionless access to these different assets and you know in 2026 what Chris and I are starting to see is a lot of folks that have been very traditional players in the space like the securitizes all these big players in the in in the you know the art of a space that we're close friends with and that we're partnering with. They're actually asking for help from us to really deploy these assets permissionlessly into these different distribution channels to really gain you

know real users um and uh you know activity and utility on their assets. So I think you know this year was a pretty good start for arts. I think it's still pretty early on if you ask us. Yeah. Um but you know all the places uh you know all the pieces of the puzzle are being put in place where you know the regulatory regime is you know um you know opening up a bit a lot of institutions are coming in the space I mean JP Morgan I mean dude they you know they've been researching Ethereum for years and you know they're finally deploying some funds on so a lot of stuff is happening u not only in the US and uh actually a lot globally so in Asia and the UAE Chris and I we just came back from a long trip out in the

Middle East and in Asia. And I think what a lot of folks don't realize is the art of opportunity isn't just stuck in the US, right? There's a lot of velocity in the Asia, a lot of velocity in the Middle East, a lot of velocity honestly anywhere outside of the US. >> A lot of capital, too. You know what I mean? And they want to put it somewhere, >> you know? They're they're it's like investment seeking capital from >> from large entities. And I mean, Teddy, just to kind of, you know, double down here, basically what we're saying is RWA's had their breakout year this year. tokenization really had a breakout year. I think where where you guys are looking to kind of take this industry to the next step and generally where it's going to go I believe is just like you know as

you guys say RWA FI just generally actually taking these assets bringing them into onchain ecosystems and then creating onchain economies with them and so guys I'm going to just put you both on the spot and then we'll move on from this fun question. Is Janice Henderson going to dominate 2026? Will we see them at the top of the board on December 31st, January 2026? Will it be Superstate? Will it be somebody else? What is your predictions, guys? [laughter] >> And if there's no answer, no comment, we can move on. But come on.

>> I think um theis, um it's >> it's hard to look at anything in the future with any certainty. Look, I don't even know what I'm doing tomorrow, right? So, that's probably the starting point. But, you know, I do love to predict. I do love to throw around no matter what. So, I would say this. I think the answer is no. Right? I'm a big fan of Jan Janice Anderson. We work with them all the time. We have a bunch of stuff there. So, I think they're high quality products, great people, and great great services. But I think people are going to want to diversify, right? If you look today, if you if you're on the RV XYZ page right now, if you scroll down a little bit, right? Um, into the table below that gives you the the stats on each of these things, right? If you

look here, I think the number one distinction here is if if you look at the there's there's a column for holder count, right, across these things. And I always think that's what matters more, right? Um, and if you look at the holder count for these assets, you know, unfortunately, you look number one, 10 holders, number two, 45 holders, none of this is is one holders look so sketchy, man. You're like, who's actually using this stuff? >> Correct. Correct. Exactly. And it's not to say it's a bad thing. You have to start somewhere. So, I'm very positive. I think it's actually incredibly bullish and good that this is happening, but we need to go to the next phase of people actually using this. And I think as that comes into play, we've seen with things like Athena as an example, right? USD, great product and a great team.

Obviously, shout out to Athena. I think they've done incredibly well for themselves. You look at things like Maple, you look at USDS, right? You look at the holder counts for those and the TVL that goes for those as well. We're not talking 1 billion, right? Athena got to what, 12, 13, 14 billion. Maple's up to 5, six, you know, um USDS has always been kind of 567, right? So these products are retail money, right? Um being able to get to five, six, seven, 10 billion in TVL overnight as well, right, in the course of a year. And that's a much more sa diversified set of users. And so just say when you tap into that user base and actually have real users against this thing the TVL skyrockets in new way. So just to say just provably if you look at USD USD as an example they have you know hundreds

of thousands of users right and to and up to 10 12 billion in TVL. So if you look at that alone if you can get you know you have one user or two users getting a billion dollars in TVL right when we see this begin to crack into the mainstream next year with crypto and billions of dollars flowing in and hundreds of thousands of users there will just be more money coming in and there will be new winners to be crowned. So, will it be Yennis Center? Could be, you know, but could be could be a bunch of other things. And so, I think I think there's a good chance it's something else. >> It's hard to say who's the who the winner will be next quarter, >> you know what I mean? So, it's like, all right, guys, let's flip to the next uh

uh sheet here and data point. I think it's going to be something around just generally who's kind of dominating on the network side. Um, you know, I think that a lot of people think about to tokenization from the fintech perspective, but it's also obviously the the, you know, the the yin-yang here is the offchain and the onchain, right? And so, we got to talk about the onchain. Um Ethereum number one, dominating by a country mile. We were told back in the day, 2020, 2021, 2022 institutions are really coming this time, Ethereum's credible neutrality was going to matter. it was going to be important to have this credibly neutral decentralized censorship resistant base layer. What happened was securitiz went multi-chain.

Everybody went multi-chain. Nobody cared about Ethereum. Ethereum was left in the dust. You know, theoretically mind share and kind of some believers were kind of like guys, I thought institutions were going to come to Ethereum only. Well, we got L2s, we got all this other stuff, all L1's, etc. But by the numbers, it's quite clear that Ethereum is dominating and will continue to dominate. I believe in this RWA category. How do you guys think about the chains? Plume's in there. Red. I see red. It It's It's still day one, boys. It's still day one. Okay. >> That's right. >> Um, but how do you look at this list from a competitive standpoint, from a non-biased standpoint, even? How do you look at this list as a founder? And I know you guys both want to dominate here. Where do you see this going?

>> Yeah, Tony, please go for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think look, you know, Ethereum obviously they're taking a big part of the chart because they've just been around forever, right? You know, when a lot of the folks Chris and I spoke with in the beginning days, they're all starting on Ethereum because that's what they're used to. You know, it's basically the chain of choice for a lot of institutions and a lot of these folks coming in. And then you're right, like over time, a lot of these players started coming in. My honest opinion is a lot of these general L1s, L2s, they basically saw something hot and shiny within Art of Aase. So they kind of pivoted towards arts and they were trying to do anything to be relevant in you know on crypto Twitter amongst everyone globally talking about uh

crypto in general and then there's like a whole subset of you know more focus chains like plume uh that started popping up and so you can see here like that's why the chart you know I think Ethereum still holds a big part of this chart because they've just been around forever they've been battle tested a lot of folks are very used to deploying their assets and funds there first before going multi-chain um but as you See, there's a lot of other players that, you know, I don't to be frank, I don't even know what they're doing in art. I don't know why they're here, but [laughter] >> there's a competitor in them. >> Yeah. >> So, I mean, Teddy, >> I think >> Yeah, please.

>> Oh, yeah. Go ahead. No, go ahead. >> I was going to say, so this thing started at five bill or so, just over five bill, right, Rob? Around early Jan. And then this thing ran to almost 20 bill. So, a good 4x this year across the board. Um, what do you guys think led to this drive? Is it just this this tokenization kind of like mania if you will that's been going on? I mean this thing is up a good four times. Stable coin value. We're look as you can see we're about to cross 300 billion. Obviously a lot of this was driven by stables. Um but this specifically is not including stable coins.

>> This this chart does not include stables. What drove this [clears throat] trend and what do you expect to be the main drivers for next year? >> Totally. I mean, look, I think the short answer is when there's a chart and a goal it then people play into it, right? I think that's the real answer here. The art of this stuff is in no way uncorrelated to the rise of art of XYZ. Again, shout out to Adam and Charlie, right? I think they've built a great thing and it's I I it's wonderful that like people can actually see this and begin to coales on what are the right ways to look at what the right metrics and they keep adapting up the time as well, right? So, if you look at this, it really comes down to that. People are still trying to figure out, right, what

are the right ways to look at these? What are the right numbers? And so you look at a few of these graphs and people say, "Okay, how can we get up on here?" Right? It turns out they can see the winds turning and they can see they can see the and trying to get into the game here and and create a story. There's no it's no surprise also on this list is a couple chains that were kind of, you know, old and dated and just not really a thing anymore, right? And now they're kind of re retrying to trying to reinvent themselves into this new thing. Of course, there's a bunch of very relevant good ones, too, right? Um but it's a mix of a bunch of different chains, right? Because they realize that if there's a chart measuring stats, you can easily play into it, right? And so

you look at a bunch of the deals here and some things are going on. It's again it's the same thing. You have a single user buying this and putting something that's already tokenized on chain, right? To then to kind of have this thing and and get your number up, right? And so that's what this list is today. Doesn't mean it's bad though, right? Again, everything's got to start somewhere. But that's what this is, right? Today it's a lot of random stuff happening to try and, you know, sort of get a grip on what's h what's really going on in RWAs and begin to feel our way around, right? It's like that it's the sort of the sort of like the blind guys and the elephants, right? You know, it's a bunch of people like feeling around like what is this thing? Is it real? How do we pinata? You know what I

mean? just everyone's kind of taking their cracks at it. >> But you mentioned holders. We got 578,191 RWA holders on chain. Like guys, like >> Yep. >> Can we get a golf clap? Like like let's go. [laughter] 600K on chain. Come on. >> Exactly. That's pretty damn good. I mean, it's been great. >> That number was probably really damn low end of last year to be honest. >> Yes. >> Yes. I think it was Oh, man. Let's see. >> It was like 200 I think, right, Chris? >> It was even It was even less. I think it started the year 80,000 I think. Is that is my my recollection?

>> Yep. 85,000. >> And this is the total holders over all of these networks. >> Yes, that's right. >> When we look at a per network view, I think this chart is going to look very different. >> Um because like Chris and Teddy are saying is that on the prime prime the the largest capital base of these RWA products, it's normally one holder, five holders. So obviously holders are up but different chains are taking different approaches when they're going to market with these products. Chris, there was one thing that you mentioned earlier that I I would love to just kind of loop in because and give us a really well-rounded perspective of of this market. You mentioned risk and you

mentioned yield and those are two of the primary dimensions but you also mentioned duration and I think this is something that is a flying a little bit under the radar but is going to become important and maybe with duration that's why Ethereum is leading in this credibly neutral like secured against world war II like people are seeing 40 50 100 years into the future could you just describe what is duration as it relates to RWAS >> totally duration is a very simple concept all we're talking about duration is the idea that um these assets do not come back in a short period of time. So you put your money in and there's some period of time in which you have to wait until the money comes back. There's duration for two things. Duration on principal and duration on yield, right?

And again people don't really understand the distinction between these things, right? But those are two things you have to think about here, right? If you look at your average T bill, right? The duration on that is what you know that's why they say T+1 T plus2 or T plus. It means you can get the money back in one or two days, right? But if you think about other RWAs, RWAS typically are some sort of lending, that's what this is, right? You're lending to the US government, you're lending to, you know, a Vietnamese coffee shop or some kind, you know, you're lending to whatever it might be, right? So depending on who you're lending to and how you lend to them, the duration is different, right? So take take for example um the classic example from last cycle was um was our friends at Goldfinch, right? Where you

were lending out to emerging markets, right? And you would be able to sort of in one click of a button, you know, spread money all across the world, right? >> They were very emerging. We call those emergent markets. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that comes to the risk as well with duration, right? Because and and how to think about secured versus unsecured all these different dimensions. But the duration piece ends up being you know if you lend your money to let's just call it a um you know an auto shop in in in uh in Malaysia or something, right? Like who knows if that's good, if that's real, if that's bad. You know when's the money come back? They've got like if you lend money to auto shop in Malaysia, they have to actually run the business, you know? So the money the cycle in that

money can be anywhere from you know 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 14 24 you know 48 months we've seen with things like real estate you know we was on the phone with a real estate project yesterday very very good one but their duration the shortest they can get down is 15 months which means you put your money in you don't get it back for 15 months right and the thing that's a huge a huge mismatch here is usually duration is correlated with yield right so the longer the duration the higher the yield right generally speaking it's not completely true we actually have a bunch of assets that have come out that are short duration with high yield we get to that in a second Right. But big picture, right? That's the focus right now is how do you get to high yield but short duration

because look crypto right in trady people are used to longer duration. We have 401ks. We have these pension funds. We have big pools of capital that are permanent money. >> I'm basication in crypto. I'm absolutely so used to the liquidity being able one click of a button 247. And that's >> that's the magic of crypto. >> That's like the crypto. >> Yes. Yes, it is the magic. Yes. Yes. >> That's what we want about this thing, right? But that's the ex and you're totally right. That's the mismatch today. People are used to be able to say, "Look, I'd rather have incredible risk, right? Who knows what this thing is built off of, but at least I can pull my money out anytime, right?" Whereas, you're really now reducing the risk by a huge amount, but you're going to have to wait 3 to six months sometimes, and

people are very uncomfortable with that at this point, right? Like, look, DeFi has been around for four or five years max. So, the idea of holding something there for two years is ridiculous, right? So, that's duration risk right now. And that's what this means, and that's a dimension we think about. That's why people are bullish on Ethereum and that's why things happen good because people are thinking about you know when you're thinking about a long duration asset you know you do have to think about where it's going to live how you interact want that thing to live on the safest place you know I hope that gives you enough meat to chew on because on this >> well I think wall I think Wall Street is the the the audience and the and the uh the market segment that is most concerned about duration and that's why

we're seeing these institutional products on Ethereum but if You contrast that with the chart that's up now. you see like I want to I want to ask Chris and Teddy what their audience segment is like what is the what is the topography like what are the demographics of an asset or excuse me an a user of plume because plume is the number two arguably I don't know why they have salana listed above you guys because it seems like plume >> well I think it's the most recent basically >> oh okay the most recent there but for the majority >> month if you do the aggregate which is one tab over in asset holders that's the That's the one that'll show you the >> You guys are in your a bit of your first bear market here, lads. Strap in.

[laughter] Don't worry. We got bear spray. I can bring you some bear spray. That thing's going to go over the course. That was a test. >> Over the course of >> July was a test pump, boys. >> Over [laughter] the course of 2025, you guys had the most active addresses. So, I'm curious, what is >> who are the Plume users? Why are they the most active? >> For sure. For sure. >> Teddy, go ahead. >> Yeah, I can start. I mean, if you look at the tab Chris was talking about, in aggregate, we're the largest chain by Arab wallet holders, larger than Ethereum, Salana, all these other chains, even combined. The reason why that is is because we've actually structured a chain where we can make these products feel a little bit more like things that, you know, onchain users are used to. So, you know, our

assets feel a bit more permissionless, bit more liquid and composable through our Nest product. And so, if you look on chain at the stats, a lot of our users are within PUSD. They're within our Nest different uh different Nest faults. And what users are actually doing that they can't do on other chains is looping arts. So they can put money into an art asset on NAS, take that collateral token out, put it onto Morpho on Plume. And on Morpho, there's like 11 different or I think it's like nine different or 10 different um you know different lending markets and they're all actually denominated within NLP tokens and you can borrow against that and do these different looping strategies that the onchain audience is you know quite used to to be frank like you know Andy I'm sure you know you farmed a bunch of

stuff Robbie you too um and you know these use cases before we existed just did not exist and that was the biggest issue with artase you know anyone can tokenize anything I think tokenization being becoming a little bit more commoditized but how do you actually get these users involved and how can you actually put these assets to good use and from what we've seen on chain to really drive retail adoption this art looping strategy is only like the first use case that we've introduced we have a bit more coming out but this use case has driven a lot of uh you know retail demand which is why on the charts you can see that you know all these users they're all on plume right now >> and and Teddy what are the what are the assets and based on the three dimensions that we talked about earlier, risk,

yield, and duration. Where do plumes users fall? Are they I I would take it they're probably low duration, high yield, low risk. Right. That's the magic trifecta all three. >> I would actually argue they're higher risk than most like Wall Street type investors. But >> certainly, right, you can get it with low lowrisisk ideal, but yeah. Where where are they at on Yeah. Yeah. So, um we have a lot of looping going on through one of our vaults uh called NBasis. uh the underlying actually we work pretty closely with the superstate team. So it's their USCCC fund that takes up a majority of the vault and then their treasury fund as well. And so you know these yields are high enough where the math makes sense. Like if you're borrowing at like six or 7% the

yields got to be at least like nine or 10 to then make sense for you to loop it a few times. So you know these assets are pretty liquid. I think it's like T plus three T plus4. Uh the yields are closer around like 10 percentage or it moves a lot given the market right now. I think right now it's a you know different time um in space but um yeah I mean these assets are the ones that are seeing a lot of looping demand and kind of like what Chris is saying earlier we have a lot more different types of RTA assets coming on that are in different asset classes like there's some payi assets that we're looking at where you know the yield on it is almost like you know 14 to 16 to 17% or so. Um, and so what we're doing right now is really

just educating folks on how these use cases work and then we're going to hit them with a bunch of different new assets and they're going to be like, "Holy like this actually works on Plume and we actually understand this now." Like the biggest issue before was >> there was just a huge information gap. Like I mentioned earlier, like no one really understood what they were doing, but we're making this, you know, feel a lot more like home for these folks. And Chris, I know you wanted to chime in there. >> Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again.

Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get [music] a treasure at treasure.io. Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. [music] Go to habachi.xy XYZ to start trading today. >> Yeah. Can I just ask one thing real quick guys? Um T plus 3 T plus4 um do you guys just cover that duration risk and have some sort of like way to cover it? Teddy, how do you think about how that or Chris how does that exactly work?

>> Totally. Totally. So there are two ways to do it. One is you just like live into it. Meaning like if the user tries to withdraw, you wait three days, right? And you can get the money back. Now we like instant liquidity, right? Because we're crypto. the entire purpose and the the reason why you know you see these numbers today this chart up here so it's like 580,000 total RWA holders of which you know nearly 300,000 are on plume 280,000 so it's overuge little over 50% of the entire market >> shut it's exactly it's it's more so we have more users of RWS on plume than the rest of the next 10 chain combined right including all these things >> correcting and it's be it's it's because we we think I think we're one of the few that and one of the and I think it's

happening in this way unless That's why we're excited to to expand other chains as well. But like we're one of the few that are thinking about this from a cryptonative perspective, right? I think at the end of the day, it's all supply and demand. It's a market, right? And a market has two sides. You have assets and users, right? And because, you know, we grew up in crypto, right? Farming things and using things. We've always wanted to interact with these assets like crypto. And the the dimensions of crypto are very simple, right? They're liquid, they're permissionless, and they're composable, right? That's the idea behind cryptonative assets. And so, we've tried to formulate these RWAs to fit that experience, right? We always think the magic is this unis swap like UI, right? To from swap. That's what you want to do for these assets, right? And

then be able to plug this into Pendle, plug this into Morpho or whatever you want to do and make this very easy to use. That's how we think about these things. You shouldn't even know it's an RWA, just like with stable coins, right? You have no idea. It doesn't even matter, right? Tether, we were just promised. >> Sorry, you guys do cover it, but you could also just offer duration to users. They may be a bit upset about it. Yes, you do. Just cover it. No, no, no. I mean, look, I'll listen to the rants all I just wanted to make sure they're on the same page. >> No, no. So, so there's two ways we we provide um there's two ways. One, we have some vaults that are just straight up we'll cover it, right? Meaning the user will just will have to wait three

days, right? But for many of our vaults, we we're doing aggregate vaults. We do composite vaults to blend a lot of these things together because these assets don't fit that dimension perfectly. Liquid composable and high high yield, right? So, the only way to do that that we have today is we combine multiple assets together to get you there. And what the what's in there is a very healthy liquidity buffer. So, you can always get out if you want. Ultimately, if we draw on the whole thing, sure, you got to wait two, three days, but we have a liquidity buffer, so you can get out anytime. And that's how a lot of the the RDB protocols work today. >> I I love you guys, but I have to ask because this chart is so insane. Out of the 300,000 users, are they all KYC to participate in these products or do you

have any idea? Are any of them bots and syibles? Like, give us some sort of sense of of of this user base. >> Yes, >> totally. Totally. I was going to say, so basically what we've done is, you know, we actually we've integrated our chain and our product into all these different distribution channels. So if you look at some of our recent announcements, we're integrated into Alibaba's web3 wallet, right? Their users go to the earn section. They can deposit straight into our assets. Uh we're integrated with OKX. We're doing a few more really large partnerships and exchanges and other wallets in Q1 and Q2. But the idea with Nest is you can actually permissionlessly deploy these assets. So if you're outside of the US, what users can actually buy is a token that

represents the economic interest and the yield of the asset. And therefore they can, you know, if you're outside of the US, you don't actually don't need a KYC for these types of vaults. And that's been, you know, a huge contributor to the exponential growth on this chart to be honest. And by plugging into these different B2B or B TOC channels, we can then really drive up the volume and drive up the users and really, you know, make this thing sing. That's right, Chris. I know you wanted to say something. >> Oh yeah, Chris, did you have anything else? >> No, no, we have both in so many words, right? We have KYC users in here, but a big part of this is making this non KYC and make usable. Now, we run AML at the sequencer level and at the chain level and at the bridge level, right? So, you

know, one thing that we do make sure is that we run uh you know, we work with a bunch of partners on Glean Predicate and Elliptic and and TRM and all these folks to really make sure that at the end of the day the money's fine because you can't have non AML money, right, go into these assets, right? Because ultimately these are institutional assets, right? And so they need that clarity. We've worked with a bunch of providers to say, "Hey, look, are you comfortable with this?" And they, you know, we've been able to to get it so far. And so that's been the idea. So we want to make sure there's some degree of control and checking on this stuff while keeping the door open on a user experience side. >> Yeah, it makes sense. And I think you guys are taking this a very in a very

thoughtful way because what what's happening, it's not onchain versus offchain anymore. everything is moving onchain like the the DTCC own you know 99.79% of you know stock clears on it and it's going to all be tokenized so it's all going to be onchain I think the question is centralized versus decentralized and we're using centralized in the front end and decentralized in the back all of the centralized exchanges Coinbase is using Morpho in the back like you mentioned OKX is going to you know you guys use Plume in the back there's the Nest that's integrated with Alibaba Alibaba obviously centralized But you know we we have plume in the background to provide this yield and these products to to the world if

they're not ready to manage self custody. So I think this is this is the direction that we're headed and this is how we bring everyone on chain. They're accustomed they're used to they trust and they're familiar with centralized frontends that they need if they want to talk to a customer support they can. if they forget their password, they don't have to, you know, dig up the seed phrase in the backyard and they can still have that customer support along with the uh the the digital asset products in the back end. So, this is something that I I anticipate we're going to get a lot more of. Eventually, we'll get to a place where it's not just Coinbase and OKX offering, you know, Morpho and A vaults.

um it's you know Bank of America and you log into your Wells Fargo and you'll you'll have access to Janice Henderson's AAA CLLO in the back end um and and all of it is tokenized and and I and I know we're coming up on time but I I wanted to ask one more thing kind of looking ahead to 2026 we know Jerome Pal's out we know you know the the administration's taking control of the Fed you see you guys see the money reign we know the Fed cuts are coming and you know Teddy you had mentioned you know there's a lot looping demand here. Um, and we have to have some incremental yield above the stable coin borrow rate, right? If borrowing is at 6%, maybe it's nine or 10% that we need to generate.

I'm curious how you guys see Fed rate cuts affecting this. I'd imagine it will bring the cost of borrowing fiat down. That will bring down the cost to borrow stable coins. Will we have a wider spread that we can capture by looping or will it also bring down the yields? talk through what Fed rate cuts in 2026 could do to the RWA RWA market onchain. >> Yeah. Um so yeah I mean like you know with rate cuts coming like it it affects certain assets right you know like the assets Chris was talking like on the treasury side you know these yields will go down borrow rates will also go down but what we're doing differently is actually now we're focused on very quality assets like I kind of touched upon earlier that are more like in

different asset classes that could be like payi related or some private credit and the beauty of these assets is you know they're not really affected by these interest rate cuts as much right um you know they're always uncorrelated yields they're paying back users with with stable coins. So, as the spread kind of widens a bit, like you were saying, Robbie, and this goes back to your question earlier, actually, on who our users are, um you know, a lot of users will start actually doing more looping on Plume and within these different vaults. And we're seeing actually right now a lot of our users are, you know, um in in emerging markets and you know, Africa and Southeast Asia, these places. The reason for that is because if you really think about it, the assets that we brought on chain, they're basically assets that you can't

really access unless you're working with like a Morgan Stanley private wealth management arm, right? To get access to an Apollo private credit fund or a Wisdom private credit fund. It's it's pretty much impossible out there unless you know you have a high like a net worth over like 5 mil. >> Like if I walked into the bank and asked for that product at my local bank, they'd be like, "Buddy, uh >> yeah, exactly. >> What?" Yeah. [laughter] >> Exactly. Exactly. So the fact that we can actually, you know, supply these assets and give these opportunities to folks in parts of the world where maybe their currency isn't as stable or, you know, these opportunities just aren't really in front of them. Even for folks like, you know, us, um, you know, it's just, it's just a huge opportunity that we're opening up and the unlock is just

massive. And I think right now we're really setting the stage in the scene for 2026 to really pick up on not only the looping side but just Arts in general, right? And um you know I know I know Chris definitely has a few words how fast it is. >> Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the [music] current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. Yet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Trade on anything. Economics, weather, [music] sports, crypto, and more. All on couchy.com 24/7 for the world's biggest prediction market. Private credit is on the screen, too. Talking us through rate cuts. Private credit. I did see a macro post from my friend Krueger Macro. Alex Krueger, one of the best macro voices on Twitter. talk about he sent me this excerpt in a private chat about uh private credit market is not as squeezed and there's not as many cracks as people may think. It's actually quite sturdy and strong.

He does not expect any cracks first half of 2026 or even in 2026 in general. Great news there from Krueger Macro. Talk us through rate cuts, yields, private credit, uh RWAS. >> Yep. 100%. I mean, look, it's going to go nuclear. That's the answer, right? I mean, very, very short story is as rates go down, borrow rates go down, right? people are going to want to find more money. It's very simple, right? And not only do they need to search for higher higher yield things, right? Because you can't just park money in tea bills anymore, right? The the hurdle rate to actually get to to different assets also going to go up, right? Excuse me, go down. And so the the sort of aperture is going to open and and the sort of pipes going to open, so more money is going to flow in. And so it's going to be a mad

scramble next year, right? For people to try and suck in as much money as humanly possible into their asset to make their asset the thing of the year, right? Just like we had the TV bill cycle of the last two years. Now we're beginning to see CLLO's private credit what's going to be and we've seen a lot of talk around private credit just like you said Andy right like there are some people saying look it's actually pretty dangerous and a lot of bad stuff is actually some people think it's probably not that it's actually not that bad so we'll see where it goes I think it is it's it is variable some of the stuff is kind of crazy you know honestly right some of the stuff is incredibly sketch that we've seen you know and some of the stuff is actually fine and people just

don't understand it right and so we'll have to figure this out >> yeah with a 10% uh average APY here you ought to think there's risk involved there's >> Yep that's higher than Stock market risk. Stock market will say 7 to 8% a year is what you expect from S&P. So, you know, on the risk spectrum, you're probably even further than that. Um, but not much further. $22 billion of active loans today on chain in RWAs looking like the leaders figure. I know that this is also an interesting dynamic where they have like one product and not many holders as well. Um, but interesting capital allocation them.

Maple, tradable, fat, a couple others. Guys, I think this is gonna hit 100 billion in 2026. I think that's actually low. I think this get 50x in 2026. >> Hell yeah. >> Hell yeah. >> My bet 26 is a 50x promise. I think it's 25 to 50x locked. That will put us at >> math guy. [laughter] 400 billion to 400 billion to range. way to get exposure on the growth of this asset. Like think if this is right, [laughter] >> here's what's going through people's minds. It's like if I buy the CLLO product because I think this is going to, you know, the RWAS are

going to go nuclear, I get 7%. And it's like, okay, yeah, that's great, but I think RWAS are going to four or 5x. I want the four or 5x. I don't want the 7%. How do I How do I get the four or 5x? >> 100%. Look, one, I think it's important for everyone to use a couple of these things to get a feel of which ones are going to work, which one's going to take off. And that will help you then dictate where do you actually make the bet? And look, the bet's always in infrastructure. Which tools are going to power this? Because like you said, I can put a billion dollars into into Cos. I'm just getting 7% all the way up, right? How do you actually get real exposure to this and bet on this category, right?

You got to bet on the tooling and the infrastructure is going to power this stuff because as the volume grows, those products will start to generate fees and spit off cash and grow as well. And those are going to be real businesses. And that's what we're really excited about. So I would look at applications that are really building uh and bringing new assets to market tools in and around these things right whether you're doing lending borrowing leverage um you know insurance uh all these types of things there's a lot of interesting happening around these assets and of course core infrastructure as well you know the chain level um and up and down so I think across all three all of them are going to go nuclear and going to explode and so you know if it's me I'm betting on all of them right and that's what you

know for us at plumeros we've got the base layer but we also have a bunch of applications that we're taking around right because that's the whole point we think that this is a big trend not just for one area. It's going to be across all of crypto. And so I think there's a tremendous amount of protocols that are really interesting here that are going to go absolutely insane next year. >> Hey, happy holidays, boys. >> Be specific. >> Top three, Chris. Top three applications. [laughter] >> Let's see. >> Oh my god. >> Dangerous question. >> Put your freaking camera on if you're going to ask these questions, bud. [laughter] >> Oh man. Three tough, dude. Three tough.

But look, I think it's a ton of interesting ones. You know, I'm obviously a big fan of what we're doing with Nest, right, which is our yield protocol and aggregation point. You know, I still think there's a tremendous amount to do with USDS and Sky and Maker, right? I think they've done an incredible job. So, I think there's more to go there. People think that they're big already. They're not. There's so much more to go. So, I think that's a very very straightforward bet. I'm I'm so bullish Athena, right? Athena also knows what they're doing and they're not idiots. Those those guys, you know, they've done very well in the basis trade. There's a lot more to come there. I think on core infrastructure, I look at things like um different lending protocols here. I think Morpho is an adjacent area is obviously I think, you

know, a killer. I think obvious obviously going in this area as well and you have newer things as well you know you have some of the um some of the insurance protocols like cork you know you have some of the uh some of the ones like you know the the 3F labs recently is another one that does looping against these things and so I think whether you're going early stage or later stage all of them like that's the beautiful thing about this market this market is literally trillions of dollars that's going to come in right so if that happens >> exactly if that happens all of these are going to explode so I think the majors are going to be great new ones are going to be great um and and and tooling and asset issues all around >> ladies and gentlemen of rollup TV.

There's a new category of assets to be invested in in 2026 as we roll out our holiday campaign. You will see our market map kind of shape up over the next couple weeks and and we'll drop the full one and we're going to tell you what assets and what protocols and what teams we're looking at for 2026. It looks a lot different than 2025 and 2024. And we're very we're very highly highly convinced on of our thesis here. nearly certain what we talked about today is really really in line with what we believe here to come. Guys, stay tuned for the holiday campaign for the for the awards. Thanks for joining us on Money Moves Fast episode 14. Um been absolute pleasure, guys.

>> Thanks, boys. Thanks for having us, man. Happy holidays. >> Happy holiday. >> Happy holiday. Abel and