2025 Year In Review Special: AI & Tokenization

Transcript

How the mother the back. How the [ __ ] JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. You said it. You finally said it. So, 80 bullets. I'm bullish. We're bullish. down. I'm the H the

mother ble. [ __ ] The rollup is headed to the top. If

we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon boys. >> All right. All right. All right. Happy Friday, December 19th. It is the day of year in review for AI and tokenization. be joined by Paychan, Teddy Ponpaya, and Chris Yin for a review of the two hottest categories in crypto. Rob, what's going on, man? AI tokenization. Very hot categories, not only in crypto, outside some of the strongest narratives. Man, it's been a hell of a week. Good to have you.

>> I mean, those are the two categories that have broken through into the mainstream. So, it's really no surprise that uh this is where the most action is. I think you can, >> you know, you can break each of these category into, you know, a dozen or so subcategories and, uh, there's going to be winners and tons of activity that's happening in each. Um, and so if I was to do that and I was to look at like what are the not only the sectors within each of these categories, but we can also talk about some of the teams that we think are going to be uh teams to watch in 2026.

The categories that I would be paying attention to are obviously tokenization, which includes everything from RWAs to DeFi to stable coins. It's almost like tokenization has eaten all of these pre-existing categories and they're all getting rolled up, if you will, into tokenization because that is the portal. That's the purview by which uh Wall Street and TRDFI is viewing this industry. And so within tokenization, obviously you got stable coins, you've got yield, you've got DeFi, you've got payments, and you've got a lot of the existing infrastructure is now all being referred to as tokenization. And I had someone reach out to me the other day and they were asking like, hey, you

know, I think they saw um JP Morgan's new tokenized fund. Uh obviously JP Morgan did that on Ethereum and you know there's several different networks or venues by which you could tokenize these things but uh you know this person has been tracking crypto kind of like a crypto curious person uh and they um are pretty well verssed in in equities finance uh in general but not as well verssed in >> in crypto or tokenization. And so they reached out to me and they said, you know, what is really going on here? Like what would be a couple of resources where I could learn about what is what is happening here? Um, and I let them know like, you know, obviously there's there's some companies out there like

Securitize who's worked with BlackRock. Uh, Canton Network is particularly um, you know, particularly popular when it came uh, like DTCC. Obviously, they, you know, are tokenizing a lot of their things. But the through line that I think is helpful to understand what is happening in this progression as it's being seen from the more traditional perspective is like first if you think back to the legacy of the the stock market and the wall and Wall Street you have physical stock certificates being traded like by stock brokers. They're waving these slips of paper in the air and in order to to buy and sell

securities in Wall Street, you had to call your broker. They had to pick up the piece of paper to bring >> to the other side of the boiler room and they had to physically give the piece of paper that represented the stock certificate to the other broker that was buying it from them. So there was this whole physical infrastructure that was necessary and that was the way that Wall Street and finance worked for >> 30 you know 50 years if if not longer right hundreds of years even you know thinking back Dutch East India company the first you know stock >> then you have the internet and so then you had this 20 year or so revolution which is still in progress but it's really like the digitization of all of

that physical financial infrastructure yes that was really from you know like mid 1990s into like 2010 2015 which ultimately culminated in high frequency trading. The next evolution from physical to digital is now tokenized. That's the third step in the process where it's a more expressive form of a digital stock certificate. Obviously now we've gone from physical to digital. We've brought all of this online. The next thing is bringing it onchain and making it composable with all of the onchain DeFi apps. Y >> so I I believe that's the next stage in the process. Um I think we're >> that's a crazy history lesson from Rob.

>> I mean it's 500 years in the making and we're in year five out of 500 when it comes to this this industry and so it does kind of give you a sense of uh how early this this all still is. >> Yes, man. Yes. Okay, Rob, let's get fired up because we that was tokenization. We've got the AI super cycle first episode coming up here for an AI year in review which for me is probably the biggest year in AI history ever. I mean this is just massive for this this like the amount of investment the amount of energy that has gone into this industry both figuratively and literally is insane. So guys we'll be

right back. We're gonna get AI Supercycle first and last or sorry, last episode of 2025 probably out now. AI year review. Be right back. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot

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Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Welcome back to AI Supercycle, our premier AI show airing every single week presented by Near. We cover the ins and outs of decentralized AI, privacy, and the future of this massive technology. Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. You can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai.

Now, sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. All right, guys. Welcome back to episode number 14 of AI Supercycle powered by Near, our friends over there with their private AI chat product they recently launched. Absolutely epic. As well as some other really cool features in their latest launches with Near Intense, too. So stoked to have them as our partner for the what I think is going to be one of the best episodes of the year. Here we have Pay Chen. We're going to do a 2025 AI year in review live on Rollup TV. Pay, it's good to have you on. Thanks for joining. Thank you for having me, Andy. Nice to be here.

>> For sure. Uh Rob's here as well, obviously. No cam. Shout out to Rob for making it happen today. >> Good to see you, Pay. >> Good to see you, Rob. >> Thanks for being here. Yeah, I'm excited. Uh I think you have a very unique and and interesting perspective on the market in general, but also uh with AI. So very very excited to talk about everything that has happened this year in AI. >> Definitely. >> Definitely. >> Let's kick off with your role, CEO of the Theor Foundation. huge week for you for you guys. Token launch, TGE, tons of community initiatives, just a lot of stuff happening. What is your role with um this company? How is this week? Give us the intro and then let's kick this off.

>> Yeah, definitely. So, hi everyone. I'm P. I um I'm the CEO and executive director of Theoric Foundation. So I on a day-to-day basis I oversee the um commercial side of things managing the foundation very involved and did a lot of work along the way uh leading up to the TG of THQ. So we uh went TGE on Tuesday and December 16th and it's been non-stop since then. Obviously the market is super challenging and as a company that is super um focused on building the actual tech and the product, there's a lot to prove, right?

and we are just trying to kind of keep our heads down and get through the TG and now look at the stack where we are. But prior to the TGE we already launched the the alpha vault which is a AI managed um uh D5 vault focused on east growth strategy. It's a very unique product that it has a AI layer and also had it has vault of vault infrastructure which means under the main vault there's different strategies we are able to work with both human and agent um curators of strategies and making it just more fun.

So I think yeah let's uh we can get started and can uh talk a little bit more about that. >> Awesome. Yeah I guess um just a couple quick things to clear up for our audience. You guys frame this uh company as an intelligence layer. Kind of walk us through exactly how you guys are using AI today. I know you guys are are doing policy cages. You have this Alpha Swarm product. Um talk to us just a bit more clearly about what the unlock is with your product stack using AI. Um and just kind of you know what exactly is happening under the hood. I know there's a lot. So just kind of a high level overview it would be great. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So you mentioned like the uh the policy cage which is essentially a uh programmable guard rails that we put in place right to define exactly what AI agents can do and cannot do. So we think like we're not trying to limit uh the AI here like the brains is still there but we wanted to kind of limit the um the what what actual things that the AI can touch and handle and control. Um primarily the reason for that is to keep everything that's like stay at state safe right so let's say onchain capital um the key management stuff around that and when the agents can sign transactions all of that is super super sensitive and important to get right from the get-go. So, it's kind of trying to, you know, use analogies like if you

have a very um welloiled and high performance car and you want it to be running as as fast as possible, but you don't want to you do want to define the track where the car runs on. So, you wanted to lock them into a safe track and that's kind of like how we want to uh think about when designing the product with AI at the center. But just going back to like generally what we're building as like a intelligence layer. It's essentially is um thinking about that we're um uh theoric is unique because it's building not just like one product but it's building a stack right the stack has like the top layer of the AI um we call alpha protocol. It's essentially is agent to agent

communication and coordination layer. So it allows agents to register, discover each other and communicate and coordinate, pay each other. All the basic function that you will see in in economy, right? And the second, it's almost like a layer one, but we're not really a blockchain. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um >> and in the middle um is alpha swarm, which is kind of what you're referring to as the intelligence layer, right? That's really important because those are multiple modular uh it's like a modular a like agent swarm but has multiple agents super specialized in different areas. So we use um train training those agents making sure each one of them is particularly strong at doing what they

do. So for instance there's a policy agent understanding all the rules. There's execution agent super fast on onchain execution automation. There is the knowledge agent that can grasp everything about a project, a token, a product, a use case, um a D5 protocol, a platform, right? Like all the knowledge specific agents can come together. So the intelligence layer is really describing um the alpha swarm layer where um the swarm of agents can come together and complete very complex uh tasks like providing liquidities to different dex pools across different chains or different platforms and being

able to find the best yield in a specific asset like ETH or BTC or stable coin >> and they're able to do it simultaneous at once. So there's no single point of failure because it's very scary to think about >> December 2024 we got a lot like lot of like trader agents like singular agents that >> issue their own tokens and say hey please park your capital with us we'll make you best yield right and when that agent goes down >> when the agent goes down or the chat uh GPT like AI chat goes down >> that's you're done right that there's no like accountability built into that get Okay, I think that like this kind of guardrails, it's almost compliance, but

it's like this guardrails, this really safety security focused mindset towards the evolution of this technology. It is and to do that enforcibly, verifiably in terms of like commitment schemes on chain, it's a really good match. It's really good like match made in technology heaven. Uh, which is really nerdy, but I think it's like it's a good application. And when we zoom out and look at some of the stuff that that happened this year as we kind of roll into this year in review, the agents are just getting better. OpenAI launched GPT5 over the summer. It's it's, you know, at the time its strongest AI model. Now we've got 5.1 I believe or 5.2 and you double check. There's tons of improvements. 256,000

token context windows. You can read and process entire books, articles, conversations. you had these huge generative AI to transform operations of government um with Elsa and Intact. Microsoft had this project. So just kind of like giving you guys a bit of a sense of how much actual innovation happened this year in the category. So, as we kind of zoom out of crypto AI, zoom out of of kind of the intricacies here and look at to what happened, I guess let's just start this off, Robbie Pay, what what is a a couple words or a phrase or or a sentence that you would use to describe 2025 in AI? Um, I can give it a shot first. You know, you know, there's

I I would just say extraordinary in terms of growth, right? How would you describe the evolution of AI in 2025? and then let's get into some of the specific events, prediction markets, and more. Um, Rob, I'll pass it to you actually first if you have something to uh add there and then let's go to pay. Uh, it's difficult to sum up in in entirely in one word. I I almost want to use two words like one to describe the first half of 2025 uh and then one to describe the second half. The first half felt pretty groundbreaking uh as we you know took a lot of the machine learning a lot of the

uh the deep neural network math that was used but it finally became tangible. Maybe that's an even better word is finally LLMs became tangible in the first half of 2025. Um and that's when we got LLMs and that's when they started to do things on chain and and a lot of that was really exciting. um these things have gotten a lot more uh usable and a lot more um they they've gotten a lot more context and I think they're a lot more believable and useful and effective. The second half of 2025 um is when I think we got uh much more incremental returns on the performance of these things. Um, I guess uh I I would probably use a word like

integrated the the second half of 2025. I personally I didn't see a lot of model improvement. I don't think these things got uh drastically better with each of the releases. We saw that in Chachi BT5 it sort of fell short of expectations. 5.1 5.2 these things are just very minor increases in the performance. But what I do think uh was um I what I think happened more so in the in the second half of this year was that we started to get these AI products in integrated into the existing apps and systems that we use on a day-to-day basis. We saw Gmail like now has actual AI uh responses baked into it. One click and it's actually pretty good. Uh you see this in

Google Sheets. You see this across the entire entire Google suite. We're replacing search across the board. So I think the first half of 25 had drastic improvement in the models. The second half we're starting to make improvements in the UX and we're starting to bring them more or make them more integrated into our everyday uh systems. Those would be my two words. Groundbreaking and integrated. Pay uh I'm curious. I'll kick it over to you. What do you what do you think if you were to come up with a word or two to describe this year in AI?

I I definitely echo what you said Robbie like all of all of this feels like a much closer in reality. I think I would um use the word uh this year we witnessed AI going from capability to um operational reality or operationalization right so you start seeing large enterprises and companies are putting AI in front of the audience the users they're stepping to demos they're showing up at workplaces they're handling much more aggressively and directly with customers and doing research writing codes and managing even now like capital right so they're really coming into operations so the second

point is now how do you address the trust issue because capability wise AI can do all the stuff but are they reliable can we trust them how much capital can you um put with them and other information and data right so I think you start seeing the qu the focus of the question start shifting from can they do it to like should we trust them doing it and From my corner of world, we're just so focused on the niche of AI and crypto intersection. Um, which is where I think the gentic AI is being mostly discussed, right? Like we're now web to SAS company trying to bring AI into the product and day-to-day and automated things, but we really think of

AI as um a gentic individual like an economic actor. So I think it is um where actually I think you start seeing this year more of a um kind of the the re the rise of agents and autonomous agents is now becoming a real thing. Um so yeah so like we we have a lot of kind of um definition or work around how do we define the scope and and the power of the agents? How do you make them auto autonomous but but also within control have like a measures in place to make sure they don't go off rail and drive things off cliff right um the final thing I would say is you know this is

just like where I feel like AI is now meeting the real um economy having them managing capital coordinating resources uh writing legal contracts and negotiating everything right this is this is where you you move um the economy from softwarebased to uh AI and economic agents based economy. So it's it's super exciting. I think >> doomed. Yeah, I think we're being replaced in in certain areas, but it's for all for good reason. >> Just something to add real quick there. Um I saw this tweet from CL 207, the OG cat on crypto Twitter. He's like, I'm getting bullish on Amazon 2026. And I'm like I go down and I start to read why.

And he's like, why? Cuz I think that Amazon's going to put out a a release saying we're going to replace half of our employees with drones. and robots by September and and then that then their their margins are gonna look a lot better. Um Rob, did you have something to add? >> I I mean just on that I think hardware and robotics are uh very intertwined with the AI rise as well. And I think that's when a lot of this and efficiency and a lot of these new things start to get unlocked when we when we you know use AI as the software in a robot's brain if you will and then you get the best of both worlds. But I wanted to ask Pay a question actually because you know we've seen um you know how difficult it is to bootstrap liquidity in DeFi and

theoric is kind of out this cross-section of DeFi and AI and you know something actually occurred just a quick a quick tangent here is that you know something occurred in my mind like prediction markets um are becoming very very popular. there's a lot more teams that are building on these prediction markets, but it's very very difficult to bootstrap your own markets just like it's very difficult to bootstrap your own uh DeFi markets. And so I wanted to ask Pay, are are you guys um looking to generate liquidity in your own smart contracts, kind of rise that through, or are you guys mostly focused on look, we're going to we're going to uh be like an aggregator or a portal, if you will, to existing DeFi apps. we're going to

allow you to deposit in those and we're going to provide some of the AI capabilities to coordinate amongst those apps. Do you that's you know I I I do think that um you know there's kind of a distribution play and then there's a tech play. I was curious which which side you're taking. >> It's spot on. We So the interesting context here is that we we start with a letter. We we really wanted to kind of just like dive deep into agent being the best alpha um generator of the industry entire industry like forget about I'm not not calling names right forget about like math edge and all the RE7s right out there like we want agents to be the

curator and the generator of the the strategies. So that was actually when we started building Alpha vault. We really thought about the first um move would be doing this hatched LP strategy vault curated by agents purely and we actually used AI to do all the back testing work and prove that very substantial amount of alpha can be easily generated in a very small amount of TV or let's say like 25 million can generate like 25% of that um as an alpha very easily as AI but >> when it comes back to >> that's a crazy claim 25% returns like or alpha on $25 million is just easy for this AI. That's >> if you can really deploy that agents and

fully trust it to do, right? Um that's back testing and >> I'm not giving any agents by private keys, guys. Sorry about that. >> Yeah, you can you can you can manage the key though. >> There you go. There we go. >> Or at least be a sign majority signer. >> Um so we we thought about that and then there's um a bunch of obviously like complexities going into that. you need to uh if it's east you know growth growth strategy you need to constantly hedge so you arrive at delta neutral in east terms east is falling in this market so that is not you know even if you're like a super maxi of east you have some concern about like accumulating east right so I mean based on like kind of market conditions we uh we did a lot of pack testing we know it

can be done this is something we're going to build in Q1 2026 but we decided to before the TG we decided to take the second round which is what Robbie described is an aggregation layer or distribution play uh which is essentially why we did the allocator agent first in the uh currently live in the alpha vault. So alpha agent is kind of like a portfolio manager and the risk uh manager in digital economy. So it sits at the main vault level and it monitors it takes in the TVL and makes a decision how much of that TVL it's going to put in each of the sub vaults that has distinctively different diversifying strategies. So right now Alpha vault has

two sub vault and two curators. One sub vault is the uh is lido strategy vault. It's a um leveraged uh looping strategy and then curated by Melo who happens to also be our uh vault infra provider. So they've seen a lot of different strategies in their time of building Melo um core vault right and the second is uh the um course one uh MEV max. So this is using like OS and deploying into a ecosystem. they use a different strategy also with ETH as a coordin we're trying to use those at least those

two vaults to uh really perfect u allocated agent capabilities and over time in Q1 we're going to add a third vault and that will be the hatched LP vault managed by agent and that's something that we're putting a lot of effort in >> I I think it's honestly kind of hilarious that the first industries to get innovated uh by AI or these like white collar jobs like >> headed managers taking financial advisor like this robo advisor is going to be so much smarter, so much safer, so much better, >> so much better than any financial advisor and all of the tokenized funds are going to be the tools by which these robo advisors are going to offer their

customers. >> It's insane. It's insane. Um, it's like you gota be like a in 2035 you've got to be like a you've got to have some like artistic talent and be like a singer, songwriter, dancer or you've got to be a plumber. Like there's no like there was no white collar jobs ever left. >> I'm glad we didn't choose financial advising as our category of choice for the career uh all of us here. or not, there's anything wrong with it. But yeah, Coinbase just rolled out their advisor product on their announcement on Wednesday and that thing is going to outperform and really be there in that kind of assistant AI fashion. Guys, let's get into some of the prediction markets that we have for for models, for AI training, etc. We'll be right back.

Quick break and we'll bring these up on the screen for you. Um talk talk the AI models um main best model and and a couple. Let's go to a quick standby, guys. We'll be right back. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. from the team that pioneered cold storage.

Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. >> Yeah, there we go. Alrighty, guys. AI year in review. Here we go with some of the prediction markets. Rob, best AI at the end of 2025 from our partners at Kelshi. Right now, Gemini is absolutely crushing it. 92% chance of being the winner because of their uh GP Gemini 3 Pro launch. Gro is 6%, ChatGpt is 3%.

$15 million of volume on this market. Guys, I must say I spent most of my year using ChatGpt five when they launched it. Since then, before that, it was kind of a mix. I've been using Notebook LM on Google and Gemini notes. Gemini notes are incredible. Better than Fireflies for calls, the Google doc, like the Google integration here for Gemini, plus this new model for videos and images is insane. Gemini 3 Pro, if you can see on Kowi, right at about August, September, you saw how Gemini just started to fly.

You see the the second half of this chart. You see in September down below, Gemini is the green one. It went kind of like parabolic run from about 50% all the way to 90% where it is now starting in about August. And I that's very much aligned with the GP with the Gemini 3 Pro launch. Guys, what's your take? Pay Rob, what do you guys think here? Is this right? Is Kelshi right? Are the people putting their money on this right? Um, how do you guys think about this? What is your favorite model? What's the best AI at the end of the year?

I yes I I think like um it this looks kind of it looks right to me because from my personal experience we use AI a lot of work and you know not only just for product development and back testing um but also communication marketing and personal messaging posting right like like instantly you you realize like after using Chedip for quite a long time and then you see the gro and and then you experience Gemini Gemini is like kind of like by are the the best of all like just overall experience and overall output. Um because I constantly compare the outcomes across all three of them. I would say occasionally I go to Croc. I like the sense of humor that Croc has like the others don't. It just has like

that like Elon Musk print footprint there. Um it's very funny and so like if I want a good joke or when I say like please mix things like a funny joke in there, I go to Croc. Um but um Gemini consistently I think better above um than others. Robbie, I don't know how you feel. >> Um yeah, I primarily use chat GPT as my main driver because it kind of had the first mover advantage in my in my own technology. Uh and it had some like it just took up real estate on my phone and then I just went to it to it and I had that behavior just baked in. I think um what's interesting about these markets is that I actually looked a little bit deeper into this and and the way in

which they resolve which model is the best uh is according to this website called LM Arena. Uh and so what you can do is you can put in a prompt into LM arena and it is essentially a uh a rollup or an aggregator of all of these models and then you choose which model you think gave you the better response. So it has this mode called battle. You put in a prompt and then it gives you two two responses for each prompt and you pick which one. And so what this means when you say best AI is that uh according to this website more people are choosing the response from Gemini than any other model. Um and I think this is what we're going to see. I can

even anticipate like in theoric you have robo advisors using different models and they're competing for your business and for your capital. And I think this is this is the schematic that we're going to see a lot more of. Um, personally, I like to use Gemini for any kind of deep research. If I know that there's something that I want to do like just one, you know, one back and forth, like one cycle, I want to ask one question. I want to get one answer like like search something I would normally Google. I use chatbt for that. Anything that I know, I would probably click multiple links. I would probably check multiple sources.

That's when I go into Gemini and I do a little bit of deeper research. But I do like Grock, too, because Grock I always I do find myself pressing the little button at the top of people's tweets just to like the content searching is super content searching on Twitter is where I like to use GR. >> Completely agree, Rob. I think you're actually spot on and um pay this probably is very applicable to how you guys are thinking about adoption from Theoric's perspective, which is Chashbt. app was on my phone, Rob, as you said, early and it was just there now and it was like the I was speaking to it.

Great. Uh, notebook LM got on my phone. Grock got into Twitter and just click the click. And so it's like if there was an AI Gro for example, a let's say let's say a Theoric agent model that has their automated agent stuff that was in Rabby wallet and I just could click it and like talk to it and use it. that distribution integration is like incredibly useful because I mean I mean obviously right there's for obvious reasons there but like I think Rob like it would be funny to actually ask that that website LM Arena which model it thinks will like be the best at the end of the year and watch it kind of have different models show their biases if

they think they're the best or if they think somebody else is the best. And anyway, uh we'll do that now and let's check back in at the end of the show. P, anything to add there on uh on what Rob and I just kind of said there? >> Yeah, I think um I think it makes a ton of sense. I mean, we it's I want to comment on your what you just said about the distribution and kind of baking into the um the stickiness of user behavior platform, right? Um obviously there are two products we're talking about here now since TG, we have THQ is actually a product, right? like we need to now think about the stakeholders for that token itself. But then on the other side

um of a vault as a where agents and AI is used a ton and we want to push to the real human users and attract TVL continue to build on top of the 24 million that we currently have. We want to surpass 100 to go to next. The more strategies you deploy, the more TV you need all of that stuff, right? So we we definitely right now we are um foundable I guess accessible through like our own UI but also Melo front end where uh yield hunters can go to Melo look for all the vaults they'll see us there's turtle club who is our TVL bootstrap partner so they have a liquidity dashboard for us they have the the campaign for the TVL where you can see

more of the the points kind of how everything's calculated and the accumulative yield so so to speak like not only the ease but also others. I think we need to do more. Um I think we need to get on all the dashboards for vaults. We need to get into the apps that live in u people's phones, right? So the Phantom, the MetaMask, the all the other um Coinbase wallet. We're in the base ecosystem, right? So we need to be in that app. >> Um so the app will be naturally come >> and that's where I think Gemini is winning. Like sorry to just cut you off there about like the app thing, but you just like spurred me off where it's like Gemini has a really good model and like the Gemini 3 Pro that they just launched

is great. But once again on Google Docs it's there on Google Meets it's there on uh Google on Gmail it's there on cheats it's there. It's just like it's just there and it's so deeply integrated into Google's stack right in this example in your example in theoric stack and it's like >> it's just there and it's so useful because it it I guess like the big thing here Rob is this kind of concept of this M MCP evolution too. It's this cross multi-platform kind of like API calls that is really great. So it's like for pay it's like can theoric's agent work across one chain one app and one and another app on a separate chain or you know x y and z right in in Google it's like notes

sheets meet it's kind of like this multi-platform multi-use case approach that is making these AIs better than others in my opinion >> well I think that's why the the word for 2025 and AI is integrated like that is at least for the second half of 2025 because that is what I'm finding myself use AI this way. The native integrations I think is where we tend to go. I use Grock on X. I use Gemini on Google Docs and and Google Chrome and Gmail. And then JGPT I do think has started to take on search. I I think Google was late to the party in integrating Gemini into Google and so it became more useful to

use chatbt especially on voice mode. That's how I like to use it and and use it as my search model. So I I do think um now that these uh these LLMs are getting integrated into social media and uh browsers that is going to be the moat and it's really an extension of their existing product suite. So in order for Grock to get more distribution and and distribution and activity is going to be what separates the performance of these models because the more data that they have and the more prompts that they get, the better trained they are. So I think Grock as a model is dependent on how successful Twitter is in gaining more

social media market share and Gemini as a model is is dependent on you know the existing Google product suite. Um, and these things are going to start to diverge. I think right now they're very, very similar in their models, but because they're being trained on very different data, I think they're going to ultimately uh become more uh niche and optimized for those use cases. >> Yeah, love it. Love it. All right, guys. Let's move to the next one and the and the last one. The second and the last image uh to talk about here for the AI year in in review 2025 is which AI company will have the best coding model on January 1st 2026. Now guys as you can see here when the distribution part of the equation when the multi-asset the

multiplatform multi-functionality kind of concept is stripped away from you know different platforms and distribution and get directly down to coding Mr. Sama is in the lead. 85% say Sama, 16% say Anthropic, 3% say Google. Guys, I have not really used much of these uh coding models. Rob Pay, I'm not sure if you guys do a ton, but how would you guys rank this? Is this right? 85% OpenAI. Are they just that much better at coding than Claude and Anthropic? Is are they just that much better?

>> Um Pay may have more than I do on this. I just I did type this into the uh the notebook or gives you two different uh responses. Assistant B says, you know, clearly clawed three and a half sonnet uh is the best. The other one uh says, you know, GitHub copilot, if you're already using VS Code uh for more powerful general purpose coding, no IDE integration needed, sign up for GPT4 via OpenAI. So there's definitely um a sense of uh competition.

>> So funny that they're biased. >> They're absolutely biased. They're talking their own book. Pay, what do you think? >> AI for coding agents. Yeah. >> I mean, we're just one of the many companies that use heavily use AI, right, in day-to-days and research and product development. I I can vouch for cloud being kind of the primary cloud from anthropic. So I guess anthropic in this case. Um but yeah I'm not sure the the number but like anthropic definitely stands out as >> the coding side >> correct coding back testing uh reasoning training it's the mostly um I heard um I've been hearing the most from my engineering team research team right so I know that they're using it heavily for developing alpha swarm and different

models and thinking about um the trading strategies and back testing the outcome the yield and all of that um Yeah, I I feel like pretty strongly about that. Um, >> interesting. >> I'm sure. Yeah, open eyes like overall in the rapid prototyping and coding is probably still mostly used or heavily used. Isn't it kind of an interesting phenomenon where your engineering team at the ORIc is going to be using these open AI anthropic primarily as you said models to code to help code and then what they're trying to code and create is another separate AI model agent. It's like AI inception. It's like what's going on here? Like we're using the LLM

to create another LLM but it's very specific use case type of one. It's very interesting, isn't it? It's weird. It's weird. Yeah, it's a we're entering a gentle economy, right? >> Yeah. >> Both sides like a full loop. >> Yeah. >> There's no no 401k over at Theoric. You use Theoric to manage your 401k. >> Yeah. And Theor's 401k management tool is brought to you by whoever trained Anthropic and how good obviously their engineers are and everyone's has engineering work. It's not like just you know press a button and things built. But obviously, I mean, let's just say if we're gonna make predictions about kind of on the same train of thought around like the jobs and the Amazon and the drones,

you ought to think junior engineering roles and the the idea of doing a compai major in university has diminished significantly. >> Oh, I I' I would push back on that. Okay. >> I would say look, AI is a calculator. like you don't see like less mathematicians and statisticians and computer scientists and all these all these uh STEMoriented uh careers diminish as a result of a more powerful calculator being uh created. Go back to like uh the printing press. Did you think you know authors and journalists and writers were going to go out of business? No. It actually gave them more tools and a more powerful means of distribution.

>> And I I I think that's what's happening. I think we have a fellow math major in the crowd here. Pay, I'm not going to say who it is, a math and philosophy major here from the University of Florida who's really upset that his math major is not really worth it. Just ask AI anything at any time. Like, why do I why do I need a math major? >> I use my math degree every day as a podcast host. >> Hey, what do you think about junior engineering roles going forward? Uh how do you see coding evolve with AI in 2026? And honestly, I think it'd be cool to talk g get your perspective too more specifically on some of these solidity and EVMbased programming coding agents which are really firmly able to now do smart contract development, white hat

exploiting, if you will, white hack uh uh vulnerability searching, etc. How do you see the evolution of programming with regards to the broad scope and then in the in crypto native land as well going forward? So I think um I still see the the great need for smart contract developers and talk about the human ones not the agents uh we need them because like I think because these this uh space is evolving so fast there's always integrations with each other there's nuances there's edge cases to test like you just can't um predict what kind of plumbing and you know smart contract level integration will involve and what kind of scenarios

and we're creating new use cases as we move forward right, as as an industry in general. So, I I do think there's we're desperately, you know, we're looking for smart contract developers. I'm not going to lie. We're looking for strategists and we're look for all the technical talents um as we kind of move forward as a as a project. Um but I think yeah like junior engineers I think will enter the market with a very different outlook and they need to understand that um their strength needs to be a combined you know how to work with AI and work with AI tooling right so meaning like you got to be very good be good at like vibe coding because it it kind of improves your efficiency and your speed of turnaround of of the tasks but it still needs

someone you're not going to ask someone in marketing major to do engineering work um because it's like so now it's so trivial. You still want to someone have the back the background of and you know coding background understanding how to audit and how to interpret codes and be able to capture the hackable like areas like look for the bugs right that is still very much needed um and I think a math background is very very relevant in this uh in this world like as we move forward everything is kind of algo driven and math tied right it's going to become a lot more numbers relevant versus like content driven and and all of that. So yeah, I mean um >> insane

>> the job market will be very different but you you need to be able to do the job but with like an AI in the back in the back back of your mind basically know how to use them to accelerate your work. >> Hey Chen, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on today. What a week for you guys at the Ooric. Fun conversation today. This is this has been an incredible year in AI as well. Guys, it's AI Supercycle episode 14 signing off here. Pay, thanks for your time. >> Thank you, Andy. Thank you, everyone. >> All right, guys. We'll be right back. Quick standby. >> Thanks, We'll say bye and get our 2025 year in review tokenization segment up next. See you guys in a sec.

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and payments. This show is made possible by Polygon, the leading blockchain for payments and RWAS. Money moves fast is the convergence of Wall Street and digital assets. Now sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. >> 2025 year in review tokenization live on Rollup TV. Chris Yian, Teddy Ponia. Guys GM welcome. >> GL, bro. >> G, thanks for having us. >> GL, >> good to see you guys. Thanks for coming. Today's show is powered by RWAXYZ apparently. So shout out to those guys.

They're absolutely crushing. Um great great tool. And guys, it's Money Moves Fast episode 14. Powered by Polygon, an amazing payments chain. Fast, cheap, great payments, stable coin transfers. I'm sure we'll see some of that on today's show. It's the last one of the year. It might not be the last one of the year, but it's definitely the 2025 tokenization year in review. Uh Chris, uh Teddy, it's not your your first time on the show. Great to have you back, friends of the show. Um, what do you say we dive in? >> Yeah, >> love it. Let's get it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Well, I'll I'll kind of tell you what we're looking at here on the screen.

You'll see the first chart here. Um, what I think is uh most relevant about this one is this Janice Henderson AAA clo uh pretty much said we're going to go live and oh yeah, we're going to take the number one spot uh shortly thereafter. and kind of tested things out with like uh 50 million and then quickly quickly 10x that to like 500 million and and beyond. >> I would just love some some insights from you guys as to the types of RWAs you're seeing get the most traction. I hear CLLO get thrown around a lot. Maybe you could just like unpack some of these terms. When people say AAA, what does AAA mean? CLLO, what does CLO mean? Give us kind of like the basics. People have

been hearing about tokenization all of 2025. They want to know uh and get acquainted with it because this is a trend that we believe is going to stick around in 26 and beyond. >> 100%. Look, it's a good question, a good point because RWAS are newer in theory, right, to crypto, but people don't really understand what these things are. I mean, look, even me and Tay didn't understand what these things are for a while, right? We had to learn and figure out real time as things were going like what these things mean, how to think about rating something about asset classes. Big picture though it comes down to two things right risk and yield right and those are the two dimensions that kind of come back and forth you have some sub things like duration and all that but big picture you're looking at risk and yield and the starting point

for everything was T bills right because T bills you know were the sort of dominant asset that RWAS were kind of you know positioned against for the last you know two three years because the um the rate was high so the risk-free rate from the Fed was you know fiveish% give or take and so that means you could put basically any amount of money into T bills and you could get a 5% return very very stable, very safe. It's completely liquid, right? It's, you know, usually these things are T+1, T+2, which means you can withdraw and within a day or two you get your money back and the and the risk is basically zero, right? It's basically, you know, it is the US government going to default, right? And so very very straightforward, clean and easy asset, but as with everything in life, right, you taste a little bit and

you want more, right? And that's kind of where things are going, right? You start with that and people are beginning to sort of want to ramp up on the APY and the yield. And now we're getting into more esoteric stuff and we're seeing a bit of a spread. You have two dimensions. You have kind of moving up the ladder slowly from you know T bills to things like CLOS. We could talk about what that mean in a second. And you have other ones that are going straight to the top and now coming down. And we're kind of meeting the middle. We'll find out where people coales around and what ends up being like the dominant story. But there, you know, two sides of the poll right now, right? It's always like a bit of a barbell, right? And so you have tea bills and people are moving up

a little bit because the tea bill rates also coming down, right? You know, we've we've been waiting for the whole year for Jerome to get out there and say rate cuts. May 2026. See you later, buddy. Trump's office now basically. >> Hell yeah. The golden bull run can finally start, right? So that's what's happening next, you know. So as these rate cuts are coming down, T bills are going down, right? The rate. So this 5% is down to four now to three, three and a halfish, right? And so that's going down. So people are now searching for new new yield new places. And obviously you have to dial up the risk and dial up the uh duration in some cases. So CLOS's are the next best thing after the T bill, right? So you're not getting a tremendously higher difference in the yield, but you're going from maybe five

depending on the type of CLLO to a six or a seven, right? CLLO stands for collateralized loan obligation, right? So these are still these are like fully secured assets. You're borrowing against something very sta safe and straightforward, very deep liquidity against them. So you can still withdraw a lot and put in a lot of money without affecting anything. And you can still withdraw in basically one or two days for most of these assets. And that's what this Janice Henderson fund is. You know, it's a AAA CLLLO fund, right? So what you can do now is put any amount of money. we see with Grove here put $500 million in, right? So, it's a single LP into the AAA CLLO fund from from Janice Anderson through Centrifuge and now they've got 500 million bucks sitting in there immediately skyrocketing to the number one asset, right, when it comes

to to come to this thing, right? So, it's been a big move because now you're getting real six, seven%, right, on a $500 million asset, right? That's just not a thing you see elsewhere. >> Risk too, right, Chris? Like not T bill level or money market level low, but like relatively low. And so yes, we had the stable watch guys on uh yesterday doing a stablecoin kind of yield coin year in review if you will. >> Yep. >> And we talked about how Sky has done an incredible job of diversifying their yield sources. >> For sure. >> And how that is going to lead to their success over something like an Athena which just solely is relying on the basis trade currently.

>> And I think what you're presenting to us is exactly what somebody like Sky is thinking effectively and other RWA providers and then obviously like like these funds. So just to be a bit more clear here and then Teddy, I'd like to get your perspective here on the institutional fund metric side. So you know if you look to the left of the chart, January 1, end of it is obviously kind of where we're at now. We saw effectively a rise from I mean you could call that I would say a hundred million dollars or so in the in the beginning of Jan and then that thing quickly rose to the to a billion come August. So we 10xed or so from January to August.

10xed. Then we did another 3x nearly a from August to November, basically until middle of November. And now it looks like we're about to go higher. Um, so if my math's not mistaken, that's a 30x. Um, that being said, Teddy, where does this go 2026? And what do you want to add to Chris's point just generally on the risk risk adjusted yield kind of uh dynamic happening today? >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think I think, you know, I think Chris basically hit the nail on the head, but you know, to be honest, what Chris said wasn't super obvious to folks when we started building out Flu. You know, the fact that you could literally deploy insides into these more liquid, you know, assets

that are actually generating real yield back to users wasn't really a thing until Plume came around, right? I think people were, you know, yield farming, going between different chains, you know, deploying into different DeFi protocols. But as we've seen in the past few months, you know, DeFi isn't as safe as RDA is. Uh, you know, it's crazy to crazy to believe because, you know, when we first started, people were like, "Oh [ __ ] like R of like what's actually happening by money here?" So, um, what we're seeing right now um and like you just described like this exponential growth in RDAS is basically uh you know a huge information gap being filled in in between, right? like a lot of folks are finally understanding the assets that we're bringing on whether it's like private credit you know treasuries um all these different alternatives on

plume but the biggest thing that you know we're doing differently is actually allowing permissionless access to these different assets and you know in 2026 what Chris and I are starting to see is a lot of folks that have been very traditional players in the space like the securitizes all these big players in the in in the you know the art of a space that we're close friends with and that we're partnering with they're actually asking for help from us to really deploy these assets this permissionlessly into these different distribution channels to really gain you know real users um and uh you know activity and utility on their assets. So I think you know this year was a pretty good start for RDAS. I think it's still pretty early on if you ask us. Yeah. Um but you know all the places uh you know all the pieces of the puzzle are being

put in place where you know the regulatory regime is you know >> um you know opening up a bit. A lot of institutions are coming in the space. I mean JP Morgan I mean dude they you know they've been researching Ethereum for years and you know they're finally deploying some funds on so a lot of stuff is happening um not only in the US and uh actually a lot globally so in Asia and the UAE Chris and I we just came back from a long trip out in the Middle East and in Asia. And I think what a lot of folks don't realize is the art of opportunity isn't just stuck in the US right there's a lot of velocity in the Asia a lot of velocity in the Middle East. a lot of velocity honestly anywhere outside of the US >> a lot of capital too you know what I

mean and they want to put it somewhere >> you know they're they're it's like investment seeking capital from >> from large entities and I mean Teddy just to kind of you know double down here basically what we're saying is >> RWA's had their breakout year this year took really had a breakout year I think where where you guys are looking to kind of take this industry to the next step and generally where it's going to go I believe is just like you know as you guys say RWA FI just generally actually taking these assets, bringing them into onchain ecosystems, and then creating onchain economies with them. And so guys, I'm going to just put you both on the spot and then we'll move on from this fun question. Is Janice Henderson going to dominate 2026? Will we see them at the top of the board on December

31st, January 2026? Will it be Superstate? Will it be somebody else? What is your predictions, guys? And if there's no answer for no comment, we can move on. But come on. >> I think um it's um it's >> it's hard to look at anything in the future with any certainty. Look, I don't even know what I'm doing tomorrow, right? So that's probably the starting point. But you know, I do love to predict I do love to throw [ __ ] around no matter what. So I would say this. Look, I think the answer is no, right? I'm a big fan of Jan Janice Anderson. We work with them all the time. We have a bunch of stuff there. So I think they're high quality products, great people, and great great services. But I think people are going to want to diversify. Right?

If you look today, if you if you're on the RV XYZ page right now, if you scroll down a little bit, right, um into the table below that gives you the the stats on each of these things, right? If you look here, I think the number one distinction here is if if you look at the there's there's a column for holder count, right, across these things. And I always think that's what matters more, right? Um and if you look at the holder count for these assets, you know, unfortunately, you look number one, 10 holders, number two, 45 holders, none of those is is one holder, eight holders look so sketchy, man. You're like, who's actually using this stuff? >> Correct. Correct. Exactly. And it's not to say it's a bad thing. You have to start somewhere. So I'm very positive. I think it's actually incredibly bullish

and good that this is happening. But we need to go to the next phase of people actually using this. And I think as that comes into play, we've seen with things like Athena as an example, right? USD, great product and and a great team. Honestly, shout out to Athena. I think they've done incredibly well for themselves. You look at things like Maple. You look at USDS, right? You look at the holder counts for those and the TVL that goes for those as well. We're not talking 1 billion, right? Athena got to what 12 13 14 billion. Maple's up to 56, you know? Um, USDS has always been kind of 5, six, seven, right? So, these products are retail money, right? Um, being able to get to 5, six, 7, 10 billion in TVL overnight as well, right?

In the course of a year and that's a much more diversified set of users. And so, just say when you tap into that user base and actually have real users against this thing, the TVL skyrockets in new way. So, just to say just provably if you look at USD, USD as an example, they have, you know, hundreds of thousands of users, right? And to end up to 10 12 billion in TVL. So if you look at that alone, if you can get, you know, you have one user or two users getting a billion dollars in TVL, right? When we see this begin to crack into the mainstream next year with crypto and billions of dollars flowing in and hundreds of thousands of users, there will just be more money coming in and there will be new winners to be crowned.

So will it be center? Could be, you know, but could be could be a bunch of other things. And so I think I think there's a good chance of something else. >> It's hard to say who's the who the winner will be next quarter. >> You know what I mean? So it's like all right guys, let's flip to the next uh uh sheet here and data point. I think it's going to be something around just generally who's kind of dominating on the network side. Um, you know, I think that a lot of people think about to tokenization from the fintech perspective, but it's also obviously the the, you know, the the yin-yang here is the offchain and the onchain, right? And so we got to talk about the onchain. Um, Ethereum number one dominated by a country mile.

We were told back in the day, 2020, 2021, 2022 institutions are really coming this time, Ethereum's credible neutrality was going to matter. It was going to be important to have this credibly neutral, decentralized, censorship resistant base layer. What happened was securitiz went multi-chain. Everybody went multi-chain. Nobody cared about Ethereum. Ethereum was left in the dust, you know, theoretically in mind share. And kind of some believers were kind of like, guys, I thought institutions were going to come to Ethereum only. Well, we got L2s, we got all this other stuff, alt L1's, etc. But by the numbers, it's quite clear that Ethereum is dominating and will continue to dominate, I believe, in this RWA category. How do you guys think about the chains? Plume's in there. Red, I see red. It it's it's still day one, boys.

It's still day one. Okay, >> that's right. >> Um, but how do you look at this list from a competitive standpoint, from a non-biased standpoint, even? How do you look at this list as a founder? And I know you guys both want to dominate here. Where do you see this going? >> Yeah, Teddy, please go for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think look, you know Ethereum obviously they're taking a big part of the chart because they've just been around forever, right? You know, when a lot of the folks Chris and I spoke with in the beginning days, they're all starting on Ethereum because that's what they're used to. You know, it's basically the chain of choice for a lot of institutions and a lot of these folks coming in. And then, you're right, like over time, a lot of these players started coming in. My honest opinion is

a lot of these general L1s, L2s, they basically saw something hot and shiny within Art of Ace. So they kind of pivoted towards arts and they were trying to do anything to be relevant in you know on crypto Twitter amongst everyone globally talking about uh crypto in general and then there's like a whole subset of you know more focus chains like plume uh that started popping up and so you can see here like that's why the chart you know I think Ethereum still holds a big part of this chart because they've just been around forever they've been battle tested a lot of folks are very used to deploying their assets and funds there first before going multi-chain um but as you can See, there's a lot of other players that, you know, I don't to be frank, I don't even know what they're doing in

art. I don't know why they're here, but but >> there's a competitor in him. >> Yeah. >> So, I mean, Teddy, >> I think, >> yeah, please. >> Oh, yeah. Go ahead. No, go ahead. >> I was going to say, so this thing started at five bill or so, just over five bill, right, Rob? Around early Jan. And then this thing ran to almost 20 bill. So, a good 4x this year across the board. Um, what do you guys think led to this drive? Is it just this this tokenization kind of like mania if you will that's been going on? I mean this thing is up a good four times. Stable coin value we're look as you can see we're about to cross 300 billion.

Obviously a lot of this was driven by stables. Um but this specifically is not including stable coins. >> This this chart does not include stables. What drove this trend and what do you expect to be the main drivers for next year? >> Totally. I mean, look, I think the short answer is when there's a chart and a goal it then people play into it, right? I think that's the real answer here. The art of this stuff is in no way uncorrelated to the rise of art of XYZ. Again, shout out to Adam and Charlie, right? I think they've built a great thing and it's I it's wonderful that like people can actually see this and begin to coales on what are the right ways to look at, what are the right metrics and they keep adapting updating things at the time as well, right? So,

if you look at this, it really comes down to that. People are still trying to figure out, right, what are the right ways to look at these? What are the right numbers? And so you look at a few of these graphs and people say, "Okay, how can we get up on here?" Right? It turns out they can see the winds turning and they can see they can see the fact and trying to get into the game here and and create a story. There's no it's no surprise also on this list is a couple chains that were kind of, you know, old and dated now and just not really a thing anymore, right? And now they're kind of re trying to trying to reinvent themselves into this new thing. Of course, there's a bunch of very relevant good ones too, right? Um but it's a mix

of a bunch of different chains, right? Because they realize that if there's a chart measuring stats, you can easily play into it, right? And so you look at a bunch of the deals here and some things are going on. It's again it's the same thing. You have a single user buying this and putting something that's already tokenized on chain, right? To then kind of have this thing and and get your number up, right? And so that's what this list is today. Doesn't mean it's bad though, right? Again, everything's got to start somewhere. But that's what this is, right? Today it's a lot of random stuff happening to try and, you know, sort of get a grip on what's h what's really going on in RWA and begin to feel our way around, right? It's like that it's the sort of the sort of like the blind guys and the

elephants, right? You know, a bunch of people like feeling around like what is this thing? Is it real? How do we pinata? You know what I mean? just everyone's kind of taking their cracks at it. >> But you mentioned holders. We got 578,191 RWA holders on chain. Like guys, like >> Yep. >> Can we get a golf clap? Like like like let's go. >> 600K on chain. Come on. >> Exactly. Pretty damn good. I mean, it's been great. >> That number was probably really damn low end of last year to be honest. >> Yes. >> Yes. I think it was Oh, man. Let's see. >> It was like 200 I think, right, Chris?

>> It was even It was even less. I think it started the year 80,000 I think is that is my my recollection. >> Yep. 85,000. >> And this is the total holders over all of these networks. >> Yes, that's right. >> When we look at a per network view, I think this chart is going to look very different. >> Um because like Chris and Teddy are saying is that on the prime prime the the largest capital base of these RWA products, it's normally one holder, five holders. So obviously holders are up but different chains are taking different approaches when they're going to market with these products. Chris, there was one thing that you mentioned earlier that I I would love to just kind of loop in because and give us a really

well-rounded perspective of of this market. You mentioned risk and you mentioned yield and those are two of the primary dimensions but you also mentioned duration and I think this is something that is a flying a little bit under the radar but is going to become important and maybe with duration that's why Ethereum is leading in this credibly neutral like secured against world war II like people are seeing 40 50 100 years into the future could you just describe what is duration as it relates to RWA >> totally duration is a very simple concept all we're talking about duration is the idea that um these assets do not come back in a short period of time. So you put your money in and there's some period of time in which you have to wait

until the money comes back. There's duration for two things. Duration on principal and duration on yield, right? And again people don't really understand the distinction between these things, right? But those are two things you have to think about here, right? If you look at your average T bill, right? The duration on that is what you know that's why they say T+1 T plus two or T plus. It means you can get the money back in one or two days, right? But if you think about other RWAs, RWAS typically are some sort of lending, that's what this is, right? You're lending to the US government, you're lending to, you know, a Vietnamese coffee shop or some kind, you know, you're lending to whatever it might be, right? So depending on who you're lending to and how you lend to them, the duration is different, right?

So take take for example um the classic example from last cycle was um was our friends at Goldfinish, right? Where you were lending out to emerging markets, right? And you would be able to sort of in one click of a button, you know, spread money all across the world, right? They were very emerging. We call those also emergent markets. >> Exactly. Exactly. And that comes to the risk as well with duration, right? Because and and how to think about secured versus unsecured all these different dimensions. But the duration piece ends up being you know if you lend your money to let's just call it a um you know an auto shop in in in uh in Malaysia or something, right? Like who knows if that's good, if that's real, if that's bad. You know when's the money come back? They've got like if you're lending money to auto shop in Malaysia,

they have to actually run the business, you know? So the money the cycle in that money can be anywhere from you know 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 14 24 you know 48 months we've seen with things like real estate you know we was on the phone with a real estate project yesterday very very good one but their duration the shortest they can get down is 15 months which means you put your money in you don't get it back for 15 months right and the thing that's a huge huge mismatch here is usually duration is correlated with yield right so the longer the duration the higher the yield right generally speaking it's not completely true we actually have a bunch of assets that have come out that are short duration with high yield we get to that in a second But big picture right that's the

focus right now is how do you get to high yield but short duration because look crypto right in trady people are used to longer duration we have 401ks we have these pension funds we have big pools of capital that are permanent money in crypto I'm absolutely so used to the liquidity being able one click of a button 247 and that's the magic of crypto >> that's like yes it is a magic yes yes >> that's what we want about this thing right but that's the ex and you're totally right that's the mismatch Today, people are used to be able to say, "Look, I'd rather have incredible risk, right? Who knows what this thing is built off of, but at least I can pull my money out anytime, right? Whereas, you're really now reducing the risk by a huge amount, but you're going to have to

wait 3 to six months sometimes. People are very uncomfortable with that at this point, right?" Like, look, DeFi has been around for four, five years max. So, the idea of holding something there for two years is ridiculous, right? So, that's duration risk right now. And that's what this means and that's a dimension we don't think about. That's why people are bullish on Ethereum and that's why things happen because people are thinking about you know when you're thinking about a long duration asset you know you do have to think about where it's going to live how you interact want that thing to live in the safest place >> you know I hope that gives you enough meat to chew on because on this >> I think wall I think Wall Street is the the the audience and the and the uh the market segment that is most concerned

about duration and that's why we're seeing these institutional products on Ethereum but if Contrast that with the chart that's up now. You see like I want to I want to ask Chris and Teddy what their audience segment is like what is the what is the topography like what are the demographics of an asset or excuse me an a user of Plume because Plume is the number two arguably I don't know why they have Salana listed above you guys because it seems like Plume >> Well I think it's the most recent basically. Oh, okay. The most recent there. But for the >> month, if you do the aggregate, which is one tab over in asset holders, that's the that's the one that'll show you the >> You guys are in your a bit of your first >> market here live. Strap in. Don't worry.

We got bear spray. >> I can bring you some bear spray. That thing's going to go over the course. That was a test. >> Over the course of July was a test pump, boys. >> Over the course of 2025, you guys had the most active addresses. So, I'm curious, what is >> who are the Plume users? Why are they the most active? >> For sure. For sure. >> Teddy, go ahead. >> Yeah, I can start. I mean, if you look at the tab Chris was talking about, in aggregate, we're the largest chain by Arab wallet holders, larger than Ethereum, Salana, all these other chains even combined. The reason why that is is because we've actually structured a chain where we can make these products feel a little bit more like things that you know onchain users are used to. So, you know, our assets feel a bit more

permissionless, bit more liquid and composable through our Nest product. And so if you look on chain at the stats, a lot of our users are within PUSD. They're within our Nest different uh different Nest vaults. And what users are actually doing that they can't do on other chains is looping RBAS. So they can put money into an RBA asset on Nest, take that collateral token out, put it onto Morpho on Plume, and on Morpho, there's like 11 different or I think it's like nine different or 10 different um you know, different lending markets, and they're all actually denominated within NLP tokens. And you can borrow against that and do these different looping strategies that the onchain audience is you know quite used to to be frank like you know Andy I'm sure you you know you farmed a bunch of stuff Robbie you too um and you know these use

cases before we existed just did not exist and that was the biggest issue with artay you know anyone can tokenize anything I think tokenization being becoming a little bit more commoditized but how do you actually get these users involved and how can you actually put these assets to good use and from what we've seen on chain to really drive retail adoption. This art looping strategy is only like the first use case that we've introduced. We have a bit more coming out, but this use case has driven a lot of uh you know retail demand, which is why on the charts you can see that you know all these users, they're all on Bloom right now.

>> And and Teddy, what are the what are the assets? And based on the three dimensions that we talked about earlier, risk, yield, and duration, where do Plume's users fall? Are they I I would take it they're probably low duration, high yield, low risk, right? That's the magic trifecta of all three. >> I would actually argue they're higher risk than most like Wall Street type investors but >> certainly right you can get it with low lowrisk ideal, but yeah, where where are they at on >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um we have a lot of looping going on through one of our vaults uh called Nbasis. Uh the underlying actually we work pretty closely with the superstate team. So, it's their USCCC fund that takes up a majority of the vault and then their

treasury fund as well. And so, you know, these yields are high enough where the math makes sense. Like, if you're borrowing at like six or 7%, the yields got to be at least like 9 or 10 to then make sense for you to loop it a few times. So, you know, these assets are pretty liquid. I think it's like T plus 3, T plus 4. Uh, the yields are closer around like 10 percentage or it moves a lot given the market right now. I think right now it's a you know different time um in space but um yeah I mean these assets are the ones that are seeing a lot of looping demand and kind of like what Chris is saying earlier we have a lot more different types of art assets coming on that are in different asset classes like there's some payi assets

that we're looking at where you know the yield on it is almost like you know 14 to 16 to 17% or so. Um, and so what we're doing right now is really just educating folks on how these use cases work and then we're going to hit them with a bunch of different new assets and they're going to be like, "Holy [ __ ] like this actually works on Plume and we actually understand this now." Like the biggest issue before was >> there was just a huge information gap like I mentioned earlier. Like no one really understood what they were doing. But we're making this, you know, feel a lot more like home for these folks. And Chris, I know you wanted to chime in there.

>> Yeah. Can I just ask one thing real quick, guys? um t plus three t plus4 um do you guys just cover that duration risk and have some sort of like way to cover it Teddy how do you think about how that or Chris how does that exactly work >> totally totally so there are two ways to do it one is you just like live into it meaning like if the user tries to withdraw you wait three days right and you can get the money back now we like instant liquidity right because we're crypto the entire purpose and the the reason why you know you see these numbers today this chart up here so it's like 580,000 total RWA holders of which you know nearly 300 00,000 are on plume 280,000. So it's over little over 50% of the entire market.

>> I mean it's exactly it's it's more so we have more users of RWS on plume than the rest of the next 10 chain combined. Right. Including all these things. >> Yeah. >> Correct. And it's be it's it's because we we think I think we're one of the few that one of the and I think it's happening in this way and that's why we're excited to to expand other chains as well. But like we're one of the few that are thinking about this from a cryptonative perspective, right? I think at the end of the day it's all supply and demand. It's a market, right? And a market has two sides. You have assets and users, right? And because, you know, we grew up in crypto, right? Farming things and using things. We've always wanted to interact with these assets like crypto. And the the dimensions of

crypto are very simple, right? They're liquid, they're permissionless, and they're composable, right? That's the idea behind cryptonative assets. And so, we've tried to formulate these RWAs to fit that experience, right? We always think the magic is this unis swap like UI, right? To from swap. That's what you want to do for these assets, right? and then be able to plug this into Pendle, plug this into Morpho or whatever you want to do and make this very easy to use. That's how we think about these things. You shouldn't even know it's an RWA just like with stable coins, right? You have no idea. It doesn't even matter, right? Tether, we were just promised. >> Sorry, you guys do cover it, but you could also just offer duration to users.

They may be a bit upset about it. Um, you do just cover No, no, no. I mean, look, I'll listen to the rants all day. I just wanted to make sure they're on the same page. >> No, no. So, so there's two ways. We we provide um there's two ways. One, we have some vaults that are just straight up we'll cover it, right? Meaning the user will just will have to wait 3 days, right? But for many of our vaults, we we're doing aggregate vaults. We do composite vaults to blend a lot of these things together because these assets don't fit that dimension perfectly. Liquid composable and high high yield, right? So the only way to do that that we have today is we combine multiple assets together to get you there. And what what's in there is a very healthy liquidity buffer. So you can always get

out if you want. And ultimately if we draw on the whole thing, sure you got to wait two, three days, but we have a liquidity buffer so you can get out anytime. And that's how a lot of the the RDB protocols work today. >> I I love you guys, but I have to ask because this chart is so insane. Out of the 300,000 users, are they all KYC to participate in these products or do you have any idea are any of them bots and syibles? Like give us some sort of sense of of of this user base. >> Yes, >> totally. Totally. Oh, no. >> I was gonna say, so basically what we've done is, you know, we actually we've integrated our chain and our product into all these different distribution channels. So, if you look at some of our recent announcements, we're integrated into Alibaba's web3 wallet, right? Their

users go to the earn section, they can deposit straight into our assets. Uh we're integrated with OKX. We're doing a few more really large partnerships. So if you're outside of the US, what users can actually buy is a token that represents the economic interest and the yield of the asset. And therefore they can, you know, if you're outside of the US, you don't actually don't need a KYC for these types of vaults. And that's been, you know, a huge contributor to the exponential growth on this chart to be honest. And by plugging into these different B2B or B TOC channels, we can then really drive up the volume and drive up the users and really, you know, make this thing sing. That's right, Chris. I know you wanted to say something.

>> Oh yeah, Chris, did you have anything else? >> No, no, we have both in so many words, right? We have KYC users in here, but a big part of this is making this non KYC and make usable. Now, we run AML at the sequencer level and at the chain level and at the bridge level, right? So, you know, one thing that we do make sure is that we run uh you know, we work with a bunch of partners predicate and elliptic and and TRM and all these folks to really make sure that at the end of the day, the money is fine because you can't have non AML money, right, go into these assets, right? Because ultimately these are institutional assets, right? And so they need that clarity. We've worked with a bunch of providers to say, "Hey, look, are you comfortable with this?"

And they, you know, we've been able to to get it so far. And so, that's been the idea. So, we want to make sure there's some degree of control and checking on this stuff while keeping the door open on a user experience side. >> Yeah, it makes sense. And I think you guys are taking this a very in a very thoughtful way because what what's happening, it's not onchain versus off-chain anymore. everything is moving onchain like the the DTCC own you know 99.79% of you know stock clears on it and it's going to all be tokenized so it's all going to be onchain I think the question is centralized versus decentralized and we're using centralized in the front end and decentralized in the back all of the centralized exchanges Coinbase is using Morpho in the back like you mentioned

OKX is going to you know you guys use Plume in the back there's the Nest that's integrated with Alibaba Alibaba obviously centralized But you know, we we have Plume in the background to provide this yield and these products to to the world if they're not ready to manage self custody. So I think this is this is the direction that we're headed and this is how we bring everyone on chain. They're accustomed they're used to they trust and they're familiar with centralized frontends that they need if they want to talk to a customer support they can. if they forget their password, they don't have to, you know, dig up the seed phrase in the backyard and they can still have that customer support along with the uh the the digital asset products in the back end. So, this is something that I I anticipate we're

going to get a lot more of. Eventually, we'll get to a place where it's not just Coinbase and OKX offering, you know, Morpho and A vaults. Um, it's, you know, Bank of America and you log into your Wells Fargo and you'll you'll have access to Janice Henderson's AAA CLLLO in the back end. Um, and and all of it is tokenized and and I and I know we're coming up on time, but I I wanted to ask one more thing kind of looking ahead to 2026. We know Jerome Pal's out. We know, you know, the the administration's taking control of the Fed. You see you guys see the money reign. We know the Fed cuts are coming. And you know, Teddy, you had mentioned, you know, there's a lot of looping demand here.

Um, and we have to have some incremental yield above the stable coin borrow rate, right? If borrowing is at 6%, maybe it's 9 or 10% that we need to generate. I'm curious how you guys see Fed rate cuts affecting this. I'd imagine it will bring the cost of borrowing fiat down. That will bring down the cost to borrow stable coins. Will we have a wider spread that we can capture by looping or will it also bring down the yields? Talk through what Fed rate cuts in 2026 could do to the RWA RWA market onchain. >> Yeah. Um so yeah I mean like you know with rate cuts coming like it it affects certain assets right you know like the assets Chris talking like on the treasury side you know these yields will

go down borrow rates will also go down but what we're doing differently is actually now we're focused on very quality assets like I kind of touched upon earlier that are more like in different asset classes that could be like payi related or some private credit and the beauty of these assets is you know they're not really affected by these interest rate cuts as much right um you know they're always uncorrelated yields they're paying back users with with stable coins. So, as the spread kind of widens a bit, like you were saying, Robbie, and this goes back to your question earlier, actually, on who our users are, um you know, a lot of users will start actually doing more looping on Plume and within these different vaults. And we're seeing actually right now a lot of our users are, you know, um in in emerging markets

and, you know, Africa and Southeast Asia, these places. And the reason for that is because if you really think about it, the assets that we brought on chain, they're basically assets that you can't really access unless you're working with like a Morgan Stanley private wealth management arm, right? To get access to an Apollo private credit fund or a Wisdomfree private credit fund. It's it's pretty much impossible out there unless you know you have a high like a net worth over like five mil. >> Like if I walked into the bank and asked for that product at my local bank, they'd be like, "Buddy, uh >> yeah, exactly. >> What?" Yeah.

>> Exactly. Exactly. So the fact that we can actually, you know, supply these assets and give these opportunities to folks in parts of the world where maybe their currency isn't as stable or, you know, these opportunities just aren't really in front of them. Even for folks like, you know, us, um, you know, it's just, it's just a huge opportunity that we're opening up and the unlock is just massive. And I think right now we're really setting the stage in the scene for 2026 to really pick up on not only the looping side but just arts in general, right? And um you know I know I know Chris definitely has a few words so I'll pass it to that.

>> Yeah. >> As you go >> the rate cuts >> private credit is on the screen too. Talk us through rate cuts private credit. I did see a macro post from my friend Krueger macro. Alex Krueger one of the best macro voices on Twitter. talk about he sent me this exhib. It's actually quite sturdy and strong. He does not expect any cracks first half of 2026 or even in 2026 in general. Great news there from Krueger Macro. Talk us through rate cuts, yields, private credit, uh RWA.

>> Yep. 100%. I mean, look, it's going to go nuclear. That's the answer, right? I mean, very, very short story is as rates go down, borrow rates go down, right? people are going to want to find more money. It's very simple, right? And not only do they need to search for higher higher yield things, right? Because you can't just park money in T bills anymore, right? The the hurdle rate to actually get to to different assets also going to go up, right? Excuse me, go down. And so the the sort of aperture is going to open and and the sort of pipes going to so more money is going to flow in. And so it's going to be a mad scramble next year, right? For people to try and suck in as much money as humanly possible into their asset to make their asset the thing of the year, right? Just

like we had the TV bill cycle of the last two years. Now we're beginning to see CLOS's private credit what's going to be and we've seen a lot of talk around private credit just like you said Andy right like there are some people saying look it's actually pretty dangerous lot of bad stuff happen actually some people think it's quite not that it's actually not that bad so we'll see where it goes I think it is it's it is variable some of the stuff is kind of crazy you know honestly right some of the stuff is incredibly sketch that we've seen you know and some of the stuff is actually fine and people just don't understand it right and so we'll have to figure this out >> yeah with a 10% uh average APY here you ought to think there's risk involved there's >> Yep that's higher than Stock market

risk. Stock market will say 7 to 8% a year is what you expect from the S&P. So, you know, on the risk spectrum, you're probably even further than that. Um, but not much further. $22 billion of active loans today on chain in RWAs looking like the leader figure. I know that this is also an interesting dynamic where they have like one product and not many holders as well. Um, but interesting capital allocation them. Maple tradable fact a couple others. Guys, I think this is going to hit 100 billion in 2026. I think that's actually low. I think this get 50x in 2026.

>> Hell yeah. >> Hell yeah. >> My bet 26 is a 50x promise. I think it's 25 to 50x locked. That will put us at >> math guy. 400 billion to 400 billion to range. way to get exposure on the growth of this asset. Like think if this is right, >> here's what's going through people's minds. It's like if I buy the CLLO product because I think this is going to, you know, the RWAS are going to go nuclear. I get 7%.

And it's like, okay, yeah, that's great, but I think RWAS are going to four or 5x. I want the four or 5x. I don't want the seven%. How do I How do I get the four or five? >> 100%. Look, one, I think it's important for everyone to use a couple of these things to get a feel of which ones are going to work, which one's going to take off. And that will help you then dictate where do you actually make the bet? And look, the bet's always in infrastructure. Which tools are going to power this? Because like you said, I can put a billion dollars into into CLS. I'm just getting 7% all the way up, right? How do you actually get real exposure to this and bet on this category, right? You got to bet on the tooling and the infrastructure is going to power this

stuff because as the volume grows, those products will start to generate fees and spit off cash and grow as well. And those are going to be real businesses. And that's what we're really excited about. And so I would look at applications that are really building uh and bringing new assets to market tools in and around these things right whether you're doing lending, borrowing, leverage um you know insurance uh all these types of things there's a lot of interesting happening around these assets and of course core infrastructure as well you know the chain level um and up and down. I think across all three, all of them are going to go nuclear and going to explode. And so, you know, if it's me, I'm betting on all of them, right? And that's what, you know, for us at Plumesworth, we've got the base layer, but we also have a bunch of

applications that we're taking around, right? Because that's the whole point. We think that this is a big trend, not just for one area. It's going to be across all of crypto. And so, I think there's a tremendous amount of protocols that are really interesting here that are going to go absolutely insane next year. >> Hey, happy holidays, boys. >> Be specific. >> Top three, Chris. Top three applications, >> man. Let's see. Oh my god. >> Dangerous question. >> Put your freaking camera on if you're gonna ask these questions, bud. >> Oh man. Three stuff, dude. Three stuff. But look, I think there's a ton of interesting ones. You know, I'm obviously a big fan of what we're doing with Nest, right, which is our yield protocol and aggregation point. You know, I still think there's a tremendous amount to do with USDs and Sky and

Maker, right? I think they've done an incredible jobs. I think there's more to go there. People think that they're big already. They're not. There's so much more to go. So, I think that's a very, very straightforward bet. I'm I'm so bullish Athena, right? Athena also knows what they're doing and they're not idiots. Those those guys, you know, they've done very well in the basis trade. There's a lot more to come there. I think on core infrastructure, I look at things like um different lending protocols here. I think Morpho is an adjacent area is obviously I think you know a killer. I think obvious obviously going in this area as well. And you have newer things as well. You know, you have some of the um some of the insurance protocols like Cork, you know, you have some of the uh some of the ones like,

you know, the the 3F labs recently is another one that does looping against these things. So I think whether you're going early stage or later stage all of them like that's the beautiful thing about this market. This market is literally trillions of dollars that's going to come in. Right. So if that happens >> exactly if that happens all of these are going to explode. So I think the majors are going to be great. New ones are going to be great. Um and and and tooling and asset issuers all around. >> Ladies and gentlemen of Rollup TV there's a new category of assets to be invested in in 2026. As we roll out our holiday campaign, you will see our market map kind of shape up over the next couple weeks and and we'll drop the full one and we're going to tell you what assets and what protocols

and what teams we're looking at for 2026. It looks a lot different than 2025 and 2024. And we're very we're very highly highly convinced on of our thesis here. Nearly certain. What we talked about today is really really in line with what we believe here to come. Guys, stay tuned for the holiday campaign for the for the awards. Thanks for joining us on Money Moves Fast episode 14. Um been absolute pleasure, guys. >> Thanks, boys. Thanks for having us, man. Happy holidays.

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the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets. Now I'm up 25% on Rivian in 3 weeks. It's the future of finance. We're actually CTOing this stock according to Anom. Um, RI IVN is the ticker, not financial advice. This is definitely not a stock pick show. It's up another 10% today. I

bought right before it had this vertical ascension. That's looking good. I'm long Zcash right now. End of yesterday's stream, I remember I looked down and I was like, I had one of these moments solo like, where's Rob? This market's cooked. It's all over. And that was the bottom signal. It's fire. so far. Like, dude, Santa rally, can we please have a bounce, please? I mean, look, Zcash is up 15% today. Hyperlid is up 9%.

Things are only down like a couple percent this week. Obviously, Bitcoin went from one >> I mean, Hyperlid just had a liquidation cycle happen, right? It dumped from from 30 to 20 to in a matter of four days. So that's a liquidation cycle that just happened there, right? So here's the thing man. >> Okay, here's the thing, guys. Here's the thing from Sage. Robert Clais, please tell us the thing. I'm going to call my financial adviser. Come on, hit me. >> I remember when coins used to go negative 80% and no one batted an eye.

>> What are these? >> Yeah, these people Bitcoin's at 87K and we're like crying over here, >> for a lack of better term. What are these pansies complaining about? >> I don't know, Rob. But I'm telling you, I'm telling you, Christmas rally would be nice. Be pretty nice. Guys, this is our 99th episode. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure uh doing this show. >> We got to clarify. This is number 99 of Rollup TV. Obviously, >> thousands and thousands of interviews, >> 1899 episode, actually.

Dude, so cat's bullish CL 207's bullish Amazon thesis is hilarious. >> He called the top. Okay so um guys, just chill. Just buy assets that are going to go up. Almost every founder I spoke to at Breakpoint regrets launching their token. Crazy. Crazy right?

>> I mean, I guess like if you look back at like.com bubble >> y >> the coins that did well launch it's, you know, everyone wants to launch at the bottom and then paint a beautiful chart on the way up. >> Yeah. RIVN coded down 90% from IPO. Moondat, >> right? That's more like it. >> Wow. Plume Salana now live real world yield. How do we not talk about this? I feel like they were probably shipping this announcement on the stream. I'm so dead. Yo, y'all just shipped this on the stream.

That was a fun chat with the Plume guys. You're in review tokenization. Um, real world on Salana. Very cool. Both those chats were good, man. I think those uh year and review vibes is great. It's been an incredible year. I mean, this is the biggest year ever for the rollup. >> It is. And I think we've got a lot uh that we're going to unveil headed into 2026. Plume guys know about it. There's uh there's quite a bit of exciting things. Um I'll just say that, you know, there's some categories we're really excited about. I do think um a lot of the biggest companies in the world now have onchain strategies and are

going to launch products onchain and I think there are I mean Chris did a pretty good job of answering that last question right >> yeah he did he gave us exact names of companies all of that >> you can go and you can buy these products and if you're looking for 7% that's what you're you know you want to do um but I would be interesting interested in like a prediction market is maybe even a more direct uh p a more direct exposure to the RWA market.

>> Dude, Plume retweeted Alex's tweet. That's so electric. >> Yes, buddy. >> Shout out Alex. Shout out Alex. Alex is the man. Saw that guy in NYC hooked up. >> Wow. New Daily just launched that. Sorry. Uh please continue. I am just uh scrolling the feed here, kind of basing out. What do you say we close this out and have ourselves a weekend, lad? I think you're coming down. Let's have a beer or two. Go play some some golf. >> Yeah, that's the plan. You want to grab us a tea time for Saturday morning? >> I got a basketball alumni game, but let's take this off stream. Ladies and gentlemen's rollup TV fans, haters, lovers, desirers,

friends family foes. ladies. Ladies and gentlemen, >> Andy, yo, >> happy Hanukkah, man. >> Yo, man. Merry Christmas. I'm not Jewish, but happy Hanukkah. Much love, man. >> Happy Hanukkah and merry Christmas to all of >> you guys tomorrow. >> Jewish Christian >> brothers. >> Happy holidays from a rollup gang. Happy holiday. We're very very relaxed because we've successfully executed our December goals, our our biggest biggest months of the entire existence of this company.

November and December 2025. >> Guys, don't trade on leverage. The coins are going to go up. >> Slow money in crypto wins. Is that what you said? Yeah. It's been six years. Six years. >> Six years locked in. >> All right. Yeah. See you on the moon, bud. All right. Yeah. Quant just call. Bitcoin's going to 250. See you guys there. Peace.