2025 Crypto Undercurrents and Deciphering the Signals for 2026

Transcript

So everyone welcome to our event. Uh this is done with the CVA. So thank you very much for being here. Welcome to our wonderful offices at Gen Two. But those of you who have been here before, welcome back. Those who are new, uh come and talk to us after the the event and we'll give you a bit more information about what we do as a business and and the clients that we kind of talk to. First, I'll hand it over to CVA. >> Hi everybody. My name is Max. I'm one of the board members of the Crypto Valley Association, CVA. If you have not heard about us, we are an association, an ecosystem for the crypto industry, the blockchain companies and uh bringing together people at events like this one today at our main uh events, the crypto

valley conference for the web free banking uh event. And um we are not only bringing people together, we are also um representing the industry in political and regulatory environment. We are trying to really promote collaboration between different industries and different countries. But yeah, most of all and most fun of it is to have events like today. Gen 2 um thanks a lot for hosting this event.

joined us only this year, but this is already the second exciting event. Really glad to be here. Really cool to see so many people. And well, if you are not yet a member of the Crypto Association, please scan the QR code over here or over there and join us. Would be great. >> Love the overt pitch. It's always good. >> Please come and join us. Yeah, >> enjoy. Cool. So, um a bit about what Gen 2 does before we start because I have to do that and I want to do that. Uh we are a securization firm. So we take care of the SPVS, the life cycle management, the issuance of the Swiss. We've been doing it for about seven years now. We have

about six and a half billion dollars as service which means we've done a lot of work. We've done we've done the you know the tokenization before it became a thing back when it was an STTO a security token as opposed to RWA. Now next year will change again. We've done a lot of that kind of stuff. We've done private markets, public markets, done wine, we've done assets like, you know, art funds. Uh we've done a lot of cool things and we have clients here as well and a lot of builders in the space. What we're doing now is we're going to have a little end of year kind of eventing crypto and what's going to happen hopefully with 2026. I'm normally on the panels, but this time around I'm going to be moderating, so I'll try not to talk a lot, but that's going to be hard

for me to do. So, I have a couple of people telling me to So we'll do that but I will introduce my panel. Uh first of all we have Moneti from M. Then we have Rich from Bitwise and we have Matas from Obligate who we know very very well. I let these guys give a quick intro about what they do and then we can go from there. >> Thanks Mark. Uh so good evening good afternoon. I don't know really well now with this time of the year. So my name is Maneti. I'm a legal associate at MME and I work in the blockchain and team and with my uh French qualification in my tool kit I founded

so that we could also um help our clients navigate the Swiss and EU in this very regulatory and I'm really looking forward to >> Thank you. Good evening, Ronald from Bitwise. For those who don't know Bitwise, we are man specializ in crypto. We do primarily today and ETFs. That's our core of a business right now. Sorry. And we do all sort of stuff. We have institutional staking business in in London and we also run

into and uh what I am doing I'm responsible for French speaking regions on the sales side Switzerland in it in its entirety included so thank you for having me tonight >> hello good evening my name is Matias I run a company called obligate uh we are an onchain capital markets infrastructure so we enable uh issuers to issue bonds structure products and other tokenized products directly as tokens on chain. So think of us think of gen two like the rapper and also it's always very difficult to find

people who are building in the space and doing it very well. So I think I like to think of these guys the builders innovators who are actually contributing to the space and making it better. So there'll be 20 minutes of maybe Q&A. Well, first my Q&A and then your Q&A will take my Q&A takes precedence over yours. Um that's how it's going to work. Um okay. So if we look at what's happened this year with what's happening in banking, uh ETFs have come out obviously a big play this year. Black doing really well. ST ETFs. Falcon X bought 21 shares. So you know we got companies moving into crypto space.

crypto companies moving into space. JP Morgan doing asset back loans now. Okay. So they're giving loans against BTC. This never happened before. This is BTC backed loans by JP Morgan. It's a gent right it's a globally systematic systematically important bank. They're making these loans. So where is the demand? If I can ask specifically for where is the demand now? What is happening in the space? Where is the demand? Is it vanilla products? Is it complex? yield products I mean neurosstructure products dead capital markets person right so >> yeah I think uh what we've seen the last 12 months or so I mean 2024 was all about let's say um trafi going crypto with like crypto ETFs etc right that

coming in but 2025 was all about trafi uh like trafi going defi right so that actually traditional players like brack like Franklin temp started tokenizing simple products money market funds right yield bearing tokens right, things like that. Um, and bringing it into the crypto ecosystem, the DeFi ecosystem, making traditional products accessible in the DeFi ecosystem, what do you call real world assets uh before and I think we've seen a huge sort of uh, you know, J curve on these kind of assets. If you go to real world assets rwa.xyz, you really see I just showed it to a friend yesterday at launch who asked me, "Oh, is it now coming?" I'm like, "Yeah, it's kind of coming." Went from like two billion to 20 billion within a year, right? So it is a massive growth and

what's driving this growth is relatively simple products. So tokenized money market funds used as collateral then for looping strategies and funky stuff in DeFi. Um but the base primitive is something simple. So we started with payments currencies cryptocurrencies then payments as in like stable coins. That was a huge thing. Now it's going into like yield bearing assets but like low end of the risk curve. And I think what we'll see, that's then the prediction for 2026 is we're moving out the risk curve because rates are going to come down. Uh money market funds are not going to be super interesting anymore once Trump hires his favorite Fed person. And um then, you know, people are chasing yield and that's what's going to happen next year. And I think that's going to be great for us

because we're sort of one notch further out on sort of the private credit side, 8 to 12% yield product. So I that's coming, but that's not where the main adoption was in 2025. It was still on the simple money market funds in my view. >> Matias, thanks. You've said a lot already on on that on that side. I will I obviously agree. Um and the figure you mentioned I had 18 billion in in mind of tokenized assets. So it's 20 great but it's still still small and it's great. It's great growth but it's in the wide scheme of things it remains a small number. And If you look at the crypto um crypto sector industry,

it's still small too. And um what we have seen obviously since 2024 is a huge growth and we had the ETFs and uh it depends also where you look at the US there is a big growth and there is still a lot of demand and I think from there for 26 you're going to see continuation of the institutional demand. What we are seeing is Wells, Fargo, bigger banks, Goldman Sachs and others who are only now implementing uh allocations to PS and ETFs ETFs in the US. And uh it's no one has really allocated yet. They're not of zero. So you have to start there first and to get

to that's what Black Rockck is doing today in their uh in their mandates, their portfolio mandates. they have two or 3% of of Bitcoin in the portfolio. So, they're doing it. The others are not all doing it. So, this is this is still needs to happen. IAS in the US are going through the due diligence on the ETF providers. That takes time. It's going through the pipelines and once this demand is actually going through, we're going to see more flows, I guess. And uh you have that uh that have been quite prevalent this year. You have seen what Michael has done and many others have followed have tried to follow at least and some will see what results you have some good examples in there Japanese

planet in France capital B has is trying to replicate this and now to even evolve into something that is where you where the bitcoin is is put to work so some yielding strategies so that that is interesting to see the evolution of those because will have to uh too many of those have launched too late and if we have a price action that like we have right now there might be some pressure on those on those models that's what but I think and then if we come back to uh to Europe what I'm personally seeing a lot is it's still the market is still very fragmented although we had these products for the last five years way longer than the US demand is still

scarce you look at the entire business in Europe it's it's not as big as the US uh it's more conservative market is fragmented uh different rules the UK has just only a week or two ago not a week ago that was 8th of October so a bit more than two weeks can't count time anymore um open up to cryptos finally after three or four years of of ban which made no sense you could buy on revolute your bitcoin but you couldn't buy an regulated framework. So that paradox is now no long no longer exists. France is working on it as we speak. So there is still that that's for 2026. I think

again if the demand follows through which I see from retail asking private bankers independent management and etc to to allocate to crypto then it's going to be very positive. So there there are still a lot of people and talk closer to home here. Swiss banks are also haven't embraced fully either. So there's a lot that needs to happen for you see banks obviously you have you have some banks here that are pretty advanced but go to do you think that P has a lot of they have an effort they have an internal crypto club uh there are some in many banks you have

initiatives internal initiatives but the executive compliance is blocking >> it's really just vanilla products at the moment >> it's vanilla ETFs, ETPs. These are really basic >> and and that's because it's the equity. It's a it's a proxy. You can do that. And main focus in Europe 80% maybe XRP but yeah I know I know how many people in here know what a is okay just to gauge sort of like we we need to know like what the audience is like to know. I think we're using Explain explain what is a >> that's that's now a way to uh there are

some companies who have so it's a digital asset treasury that's the definition of that some companies like strategy who was micro strategy for micro seller has decided to create uh to focus purely uh its business on on putting bitcoin into its treasury and to be to become bitcoin treasury Some other companies have been bit gone on the bandwagon seeing that it was hyped and and made the their uh stock price rise very quickly. So some have jumped on that bandwagon for the wrong reasons. But anyway uh some it works or it doesn't work. But the idea is to have a company who is storing in their treasury some bitcoin and because of the

characteristics of bitcoin it's now a macro asset. And the ide uh it's a it's a way of diversifying uh US location. >> I think it's an excellent definition. I think the key angle for many people is access, right? Because NASDAQ or whoever wherever whatever stock exchange listed equity that you can just anyone can buy, right? Whereas as we as you just explained, right, so Bitcoin even in the UK is hard to buy on like traditional rails, right? So you can just buy it off of the you know footsy or NASDAQ company their shares and you get a proxy.

So that's like a new phenomenon and uh yeah it's been really the year of the debts but already the decline again I guess we've already come to that point. Then you have you know credit credit companies getting rated right so what's the rating of of sailor's company junk status and that's for a reason because the opco doesn't make any money now compared to what's happening right so let's quickly move on there's a couple of more topics that I want to get to and um one is about okay so when we're looking at institutional demand what is non-negotiable space right so talk about custody talk about y Marina would love to talk about.

>> Yeah, of course. And I think when we talk about uh the demand like we always have to look at both side like the demand and the supply and right now what we can really see is that both actually don't really speak the same language right now because for example if you go back to finance data for 2023 you can see that um there is only approximately 40 banks and security firm that are really involved into crypto asset services and Yeah, but I mean it's it's very that's what I was going to say. It's very good for Switzerland and for us and I mean for the crypto enthusiast that we are here. Maybe it's not yet enough but that's where actually the number you

should not just look at the number you should also look at the quality in a way because when you look at the service they are actually providing it's mostly custody and trading and so uh they really actually stick to what they know and the thing is that um You could ask yourself why actually they are sticking to this part and it's because um they have already an existing framework in which they have to fold crypto asset and that's always actually a bit the tricky part. I mean Richard just explained about like Swiss banks they are quite innovative about that and that's true but still for example we have a lot of question from traditional banks coming to us and ask us hey can I do actually a long credit uh on crypto asset and

you're like yeah maybe but you need to have a look actually if it is not going to trigger any raise in your capital requirement then it will be oh actually I would like to offer more custody yeah why Not but and I would like to outsource that but there is this whole guidelines also about outsourcing for the banks where they are still responsible for uh the the service provider they take and so they have to be very you know delicate in who they choose and be able actually to list the risk and benefit of having this service provider uh completing this notion and I mean this whole you know um framework that needs to be adjusted it's really

well um replicated in Mika where some sometimes you hear actually people say Mika was drafted for the financial institution. It's true in a way because they don't need to do you know this additional license they just need like the regulator in advance before they give their services like they like they need to explain okay what how am I going to fund what are my requirements um how am I going to adapt my IC system and system and for example when you have speaking with a bank it's usually like two people they don't speak the same language because you have one who is like out of AML and the other one is like me I need to know everything and

even like the color of your of your bedroom so I mean that's a totally different world and the thing is that with Mika and all this regulation coming into we have more speaking the same language and so I think also it will you know spur also an offer to align way more and I think we will see more alignment in 2026 >> globally >> in Europe. >> Yes. Um I think yeah you're right uh to make it to have a proper broader institution adoption we need obviously regulation to allow access which is slowly happening

and talking for Europe it is happening obviously it's happening in the US we need that we need everyone on board and we also know that talking for Europe for inance with what they really It is still complicated for banks just to how to how to look and how to do due diligence on these these products because first of all they're not used to the uh to the structure itself. So they have to look at that. So it's such a complicated structure but then there is the entire service providers issue. How do we look at these are more cryptonative companies generally for the time being you see

more and more traditional coming into play France you have trying to push to do but that generally for for investors they need to do they don't know how to do it what to look at what questions to ask etc so once we have passed that hurdle of educational educational hurdle it will get much faster much better but we need regulation we need knowledge we need good solid players in the fieldise the big guys will feel like we're still at the bottom part of the >> what we call it early institutional adoption [laughter] >> ramp down before the ramp up that's

>> so it's it's a bit further down but we it's it's early days on on let's move on to asset management because obviously at two we speak to a lot of multif family officers hedge funds that want to sec it mean to be an asset manager in this Typically what happens in our world infy world is that we replicate what we see and put it on chain or put it in crypto because we can right basis any kind of trading strategy most people here probably know a lot of those strategies that's what's happening now we're just moving over financializ still the same

last capital market. >> Look, I mean I think we've started as I said like what has where have we seen adoption, right? One is really to spot crypto, right? That's what you guys are doing with ETFs. Um then we've seen this is like an access game, right? Getting access to to cryptocurrencies. Um then we've seen, you know, what we're doing is tokenized actual Right. So these are don't need to have a link to cryptocurrencies. Um and in that space it's been relatively simple products right as I said before money market funds etc. Um we're let's say one notch further out the curve. So what we're doing is basically um tokenized bond

funds in a way right um what we're now sort of you know enabling asset managers to to create their own tokenized strategies right. Um but of course like you have sort of that you have like two worlds. So you have that this institutional world where it's still very simple products but about access and then you have the the cryptonative defy world where it's much funkier stuff than we've ever imagined on like any structure product trading for right so um like looping highly leveraged strategies etc and that's sort of converging now that's the interesting thing because a lot of these primitives like money market funds or or yield bearing assets from real world assets are used for um as collateral on defy trading strategy

And then you can lend against it. So once you have them tokenized in the DeFi ecosystem, you can borrow against it, right? On the lending borrowing markets in DeFi, but then you can use the proceeds. So it's basically Lombard lending, right? But you can leverage up, right? You can leverage up and you don't need a central counterparty for this like a bank. You can actually do it peer-to-peer with DeFi smart contracts, right? And that's sort of why the interesting bit now that this sort of what what's called the DJ world the degenerate crypto people who are like seeking you know 30 40 50 100% yields right are all of a sudden starting to use very traditional type of assets like a bit black rockck or or Franklin Templeton or Benji token um as primitives for their strategies. So I

think the two things are actually converging there. I think a lot of it's also about leverage. Everyone's land wants leverage and they want to borrow against something tokeniz. >> All right, let's move into the red space. I know people don't want to talk about this but it's a really important space to be in especially in especially because we're here right so uh everyone when when we do panels across the world what happens is people always don't like their home markets tend to crap on those markets think oh we we move too slowly here. given what's happening in the US, right? Trump, love him or hate him, he's doing some incredible things for our our little ecosystem. He may be bad for humanity, but he's very good for our little ecosystem. So, given what's

happening with the Genius Act, clarity act, what's happening, how fast >> um actually the US are just catching us up in this >> Yes. in a way because I mean uh Europe and specifically specifically sorry Switzerland was always a very first mover in this space like uh FINMA in 2018 was one of the first to have this ICO guidelines very clear function bases um like uh bring a lot of legal security and then Mika came uh on stage a bit later 2023

but is interesting is actually how we did it because we did it a bit in a different manner like as always the European people like to create something specific for like a specific purpose like put their mind into it whereas like I think what was very interesting from the Swiss perspective is that we just managed actually to fold in a very pragmatic manner the crypto asset object into our existing framework which made it more like easily to read for people who are already actually um evolving in the industry. Um so I think actually uh what's going to be very interesting as the next chapter is going to be how Switzerland and EU are going to be able to fine-tune quickly their framework in

order you know to not to keep their first mover advantage and not to fall back and still remain in the competition. >> A lot happening in the state too. >> Yeah. Um yes because just sorry so no to talk about rect in the university no one wants to do history of law I have to do a little bit here it's just like in the past in Switzerland uh when we were actually wanted to issue a stable coin and that is still the case today because we just have a consultation for now but you needed like to have this double this very usual fashionable dual system which was SRO membership because we consider this one to one uh redemption claim uh back token as deposit on the banking

law. So triggering AML and banking law. So but you could circumvent not sorry long term. You could actually make your way around. [laughter] Save the lawyer. I just show you. Oops. Um so you could just make your way around the bank guarantee. I mean it's everything is in the exemption in the law. I just want to make sure. Uh you could make your way around the bank license by having either the bank a bank guarantee or For example, if you had a very like small level of volume, for example, 1 million, which was never the case for stable coin, but still. Um, so you had this dual um uh this dual this duo that was happening in the past. And

now what is very interesting is that uh in July last year, FINMA published this horrible uh guidelines uh where actually we did not just wanted to have the KYC of the at the redemption and insurance time but also through the whole time of the stable coin. So at this point all our crypto uh stable coin project just told us well sorry we're leaving point. The only one remaining actually were the one where stable coin was used in a very network because that it would make sense because they they would know actually who was using the stable work in their network. um and maybe learning and seeing what was happening in the EU because in DU you had like this uh for

under Mika if you want to issue let's say uh something like um circle or whatever you need like EMI so money license to be an money institution plus uh you need to have this white paper and then came a bit later the genius act with a bit the same idea like you need to be a bank or a money transmitter uh so learning from that I think and having also in mind that and that's where also Switzerland is very pragmatic I think because they I think in the proposal they did this year where they say you know what now if you want to issue a stable coin you will need this payment in institution license which is very close actually to a banking license e- money license actually plus you will

need actually a white paper they are preparing actually the territory for equivalency I think they want actually to be able to say to Europe or to the Well, actually we are something a bit similar. What do you think then? I mean it's a whole political discussion and that cannot really imagine. I mean with a Trump maybe difficult to discuss but I mean the for and um in the EU for example there's really this equivalency regime that exists and it will be the same. I mean it's just in the end will be political discussion but I think it's also um it will just also be so benefiting for the whole ecosystem because it will mean that if I have something in Switzerland then I can

actually address uh what people were actually asking I can address EU territory and the US which will be amazing and not having you know to have a e- money license almost everywhere which is like a huge um cost like usually like for example we had a quote in the US recently it at least half a million half a million just to of legal fees. You didn't even make any money yet. So quite a quite an endeavor if you want to go into that space. So that would be actually amazing. >> Is it really big for Switzerland? I don't think people realize how big that is. So I think we do a lot more top gun type marketing here as opposed to Swiss.

I think it's I'm not obviously but I think we do a lot more than I think you get a lot. I think another topic which is institutions want to get in. It's a really big deal. We have conversations with clients institutions who want to get in every week. Uh it's a bit of a a topic but I'd like to see how we can do that properly. So if I could ask you what are the biggest hurdles in we don't deal with those institutions.

No I think uh you're already seeing it with, you know, again, I'm coming back to these like simple primitives, the money market fonts, etc. So, the big products out there from like Franklin Temple, from Black Rockck, etc. Um, or other like UBS did it with Singapore guys, but they also DGFT. Exactly. Um, they um they could be used in DeFi, right? So they created securities which then on the primary market always going into KYC um you know identified parties but the token itself is then um like the stable coin right can also be transferred um freely afterwards right on a secondary

market but when you redeem or issue redeem you need to be KYC right so this is basically the the hybrid access uh I'm not going to say circumventing but like the the access >> [laughter] >> um into um into DeFi, right? And DeFi is then the uned area where you can basically you have a wallet and you you can trade, right? Like you you can connect to an exchange, a decentralized exchange like unis swap or curve etc. and you can swap your this token which happens to be a money market fund against another token which might be bitcoin or something else right um so this is defy right this is one part of let's say permissionless defi but then What probably you're

alluding to is then what can you do in terms of actually financial activities within this permissionless ecosystem and that's then the cool part right then these assets can be used as collateral on platforms like a where you can then again do permissionless lending and borrowing so you're basically just connecting to a smart contract and on the other end you have other parties who want to borrow wanting to lend for example um and then there's a a marker rate which adjusts and the collateralization ratio which is is determined And basically you can use this asset and really have collateral mobility and uh and borrow and lend against it and then you can leverage up and do things whatever you want with it basically right so going back to your question in terms of institutions and

defi right I think it's on the supply side they're already very active right I don't you know supplying assets then can go into defi um so institutions love distribution whereas on the demand side I think it might be even cannibalizing a little their own business model. If I think about banks who do lumbard lending, right? Sort of like that's sort of like if then your investors can do the same thing much more efficiently on a like do you really want to offer this question mark?

[laughter] >> A couple about this as well. No, I mean I completely share your point and it comes back back a little bit even to your first question which is like we have two um sectors which still don't speak the same language actually and so um even though we see some progress it's still very very explained earlier this one's about laws though right so how do we adapt our existing laws to work and DT paradigms across Europe across the this one EU maybe >> um so actually we don't really have to

adapt it yet in a manner like in a manner that defy has always been out of every regulation like if you look at the genius act we say out if you look at Nika out if you look at Switzerland out the thing is that you could think oh okay then it's super great actually it's can do a lot. But the problem is also that in that um in that way that the regulator in that case usually regulates more with enforcement rather than regulation because I think all the law makers are aware that it's very difficult to squeeze in DeFi into a framework and that's why actually none of them dare really like to have a look at it yet. I mean maybe it will evolve

in the future when they will have a better understanding of what's happening in the space but for now I really believe we are going to stay in the same level and so when we have actually a D5 project that comes to us the only things that we like what we do actually is that we have to just guide them with the guidelines that we have the discussion we also have with the regulator and that's where actually the dialogue with the regulator is very important is that we have to guide them so that they can structure the product in such a manner that we think it is actually decentralized because what the regulator doesn't really like is when we tell him it's decentralized and when actually can like uh analyze someone or like identify someone who is actually

the operator because he has control over the tech. He has control over the governance the majority of the governance token and so he can say in which direction he's going. So um for now on we don't really have to adapt [laughter] but uh because we already have some guidelines and we are actually we that's where actually I think our services is like the most has the most value added is because we really with the project in a manner that it is decentralized and we explain to them the risk it goes into a certain uh a certain direction on another >> law is useless

no nothing >> institutional guy okay fair enough so let's quickly move on to tokenization's talking about I know not a lot of people are actually doing it first First of all, can we define what tokenization actually means? >> My definition of tokenization would be um translate. So taking something from the real world and translating and using it exactly like actually your definition was really good with proper like taking something into your real world, drop it and then having the rail and then you usually you would like your real to be a DT or DT.

It's all about accessility. >> Yes. And I think we make the distinction even more clearly because we don't tokenize assets. You know, strictly speaking, we don't take existing real world assets and represent them as a token. We actually enable, you know, companies to issue their assets as in token form. for example, their securities, their their bonds, their their structural products. I think that's where again the DT act came in. And I just wanted to do this very short analogy. You talked about history. So, you know, why was Switzerland so early in adopting this tokenization law, this DT act, right? is because you know Switzerland you know securities used to

be stored you know in a you know trao right in a safe underneath typically the stock exchanges right at the uh six and our friends there and the central securities depository in paper piles right and you had like registers in terms of like uh which banks uh own these stocks right and then all of a sudden these registers went digital right and Switzerland was already very early in recognizing actually yeah security can just be represented digitally on servers right on centralized servers and then decentralized ledger technologies DTS came and the law that's my naive understanding as a non lawyer was adapted in an elegant way to say well if this server is just one server where the digital ass this digital security is

stored or a sufficiently decentralized ecosystem doesn't really matter if the bond is a bond the stock is a stock the fund is a fund right so that's that's the beauty about the Swiss um you know DT act that it allows you to represent these you know traditional securities just as a token. So we call these like onchain assets rather than tokenized assets because tokenization always refers to the process of taking existing asset which has already gone through the laborous process of an issuance in a traditional ecosystem t plus 10 >> we can take care of that >> exactly exactly that's what these guys do um directly cutting out this process to actually just issuing the asset directly on chain right but the end

result is the same you just have the asset represented as a token Just maybe to finish on the law declaration to Switzerland, if you want to actually uh like compare you know the DT uh regime like in the EU compared to Switzerland like first of all as you say like it was very early on and on top of it we had this notion even in the code like about this ledger based security. So we even have like this notion in our code uh whereas you know uh in the we a pilot act like we just have a pilot regime. It works exactly the same like it's it has the same ideas but um it's still like something which is not uh

that has not been clarified. There is only have been a few entities that has obtained uh like a DT infrastructure uh license and things like that and still they don't really know what's going to happen tomorrow. in Switzerland. So you have this uh standalone license with the DT infrastructure license a multilateral license and you have this um ledger based security which it already implemented in the code. So already has a very strong you know civil civil law like >> we may actually see uh more issuance on chain in Switzerland as opposed to >> [laughter]

>> I think it could happen, right? >> I mean, that's what the Swiss stock exchange tribe with the SDX, right? Exactly. To to do that in tokenized form. I think the original idea and Tomzy who was the parent brain was his brainchild is on our board. So the original idea was actually to just make you know traditional stocks that trade on the stock Swiss stock exchange also accessible for example in a tokenized form or onchain form right on the SDX so that they have full mobility if you want to trade on the weekend you happen to trade the the tokenized stock if you trade week and then it settles next day like on Monday or so into your traditional infrastructure so you have full mobility. Fortunately that's not

exactly how it was implemented. So it was sort of a little bit of a or how we say in German and um now yesterday or whatever couple days ago it was announced that they officially gave their you know stock exchange license back to the regulator right so they they shut down right but actually that's the whole idea yes and then of course you have like as many stocks as there are traditional stocks on chain >> look I think if you're issuing debt I think this is the best place to do it under the so under Swiss law is a really big deal >> and that also means structure products trackers.

>> Final thought before what have you seen about what have you seen in 2025 that excites you about 2026 in our little ecos? I like it. >> Um me I would say the that for the first time we saw that regulator didn't you know put the task of um having to deal with the crypto industry and the crypto regulation for the next year like we could see that more and more regulator were really like sitting at the table due also to like the US starting to sit at the table which was which is very interesting I think and at the same time

you could see how like it triggers also like the movement from the other jurisdiction already has a framework to say okay how do I stay actually with the competition in line with the competition. So I think 2026 from that aspect is going to be very interesting because we are going to see like a lot of changes like calls for it's already started for example in Europe like uh the IMF like the Italian regulator the Dutch regulator like they ask ESMA for more clarity they ask ESMA to like take over a bit more the role of uh being like the watchdog for the whole Europe and not just you know having like all the states like just having 28 flavors of ma and just having something

a bit bit more harmonized. Uh so I for that I think as a lawyer it's going to be a very interesting year. >> Selfishly two things on the back of the regulation is the opening up focus only in for Europe the opening up of few countries and regulators kind of saying okay now you can sell this uh in particular. So that is very positive and seeing what is how the US are pushing forward. So if they deliver on the regulation I think push other countries with them pull other countries with them. Uh and then as I was also alluding to before still a lot of places where you go to

where there is absolutely no exposure and people are still still being trying to get educated and And the demand coming from it's really coming from the retail from the individuals they want it and they are forcing now everyone bankers independent managers to get exposure. So everyone is now having to look at it for us. >> So for us, for me it's uh love it or hate it. Two things that the thing that excites me about 2025 and that's going to be promising for 2026. It's the same thing. Trump and Trump. So why uh thanks

to Trump, let's face it. I mean, 13 months ago, Jaime Diamond was saying, you know, crypto is illegal and JP Morgan will never touch a public blockchain. This year, JP JP Morgan launched a token on a public blockchain, right? That's that's just unthinkable. It would have been unthinkable pre-Trump. And it's just become the reality that all the big US institutions have launched not just pilots, but actual products. uh on the blockchain ecosystem. So that's super exciting and I think that's driven a major adoption this year of actual real real institutional adoption. And the selfish thing of 2026 is that I think thanks to Trump rates are going to go down to zero

again which is going to make our products way more attractive relative to tokenized money market funds. So that's actually hopefully going to be very good for us. >> Cool. Thank you very much guys. I'm gonna open up the Q&A if anyone has any questions. Please uh speak up. Give you the mic. You were quite selfish with your questions though. >> Um, a quick question around the stable coin regulation that you mentioned u previously. So, um, what's your take on Swiss stable coin and like the adoption of Swiss stable coins in the next couple of years? Are there any like maybe you mentioned some changes coming up? Could you elaborate maybe a bit more? And

yeah, when do you think it will be probably available for retail to just hold stable coins in the world. >> Well, first of all, like sorry business school kicking in um like I don't really think whether having a Swissbased stable coin is that interesting is that interesting for us as a country because we are not in the same position as the US. we don't need like to pay our uh external balance sheet uh commercial balance sheet like we actually have a strong money we have uh industry in now so I don't really see the Swissbased stable coin being a thing in in Switzerland but to go back to your question I see however maybe a euro or

US stable coin being something still in in in our like in in Switzerland um the thing is that Now uh we uh still work under you know the duo that I was explaining which is the SO membership plus bank guarantee. The thing is that since uh Fin my guidelines in 2024 when you had to identify you know all the holders of the stable coins for the lifetime many banks didn't really want to touch this subject anymore because it was also like a signal from FINMA that guys actually stop doing that [laughter] a bit in a way. So like no banks really like I know it's interesting in coming to like in giving any bank guarantee and so now we're at the consultation phase

of this new uh regime where we will have the crypto institution um the sorry the payment institution license so which is a bit like a e- money license or banking license. It's actually replace what we was in the past the fintech license which was the lighter regime for banks but there is no cap like in the past for fintech license when you could only you know receive deposit up to 100 million. So that's very good because for stable coins like if you don't have the volume like there is no business uh business opportunity in it. So that's the first thing uh and then plus you have the white paper because they took I think the inspiration from Nika and so we have this February then there will be further

discussion and so I think in two years you will be most probably able to finally apply for the final setup but we are still very early you know in the discussion of this so now actually that's where I think it will be very because we are actually in the process of with like a client who has a stable coin and we are still um going to see whether unlocking this new legislation is going also to unlock the banks to give back again bank guarantee for this kind of product knowing that there will be maybe a grandfathering period you know something for the transition which it's not very clear right now how you can transit because there are a lot you know like there is a a few project

in Switzerland with stable coin less and less or let's say there are but not the most active uh one and so it's going to be interesting also how the how Fimma is going to explain well how is the the playbook basically How are you going to translate from the old the world to the new world? Does that answer your question? >> Yeah. So basically it will still take two years or so until we actually are Swiss the CHF basically like a USC but in Switzerland USD CHF >> I mean we will have the legislation to do it then the fact whether there will be actually someone who we have a lot of clients actually coming and who wants to do that you know so it's it's totally possible and we will have actually the

legislation to do that but and having I think like a a theater like an equivalent CA shape. I don't really see it. I mean maybe but I don't really think it's the it's the uh I don't think it's really the economically it doesn't really make much sense. I think but maybe maybe Matias and >> one issued about the lien already on the li BCHF right so that there is supply like the question is about adoption right

but I mean in terms of like issuing securities um you know on chain for us right we tically We is settled them in in dollars. We denominate them in dollars, some in Europe, right? But there's also Swiss companies who would like to raise in Swiss Frank and we settle in a digital Swiss Frank. So it's not just you know the Treasury thinking about uh you know how to pay off their external balance sheet. Uh but it's also like just pure you know uh companies that want to raise Swiss Frank that might you know issuate Swiss Frank just to add to what Andler said before right now there is a public consultation going on for the new proposed law we have time until end of January to

provide so the crypto value association together with blockchain federation and a bunch of other association organizations in Switzerland are collectively trying to align on the feedback that we want to provide to the regulator. As of right now, the proposed law is kind of good for some elements of the crypto ecosystem, but pretty devastating for the rest of the world, especially everything that is under the regime as of today. So, we are really trying to bring everybody together and provide a proper proposal for what has to be changed in the new version of the law. so that Finland the state secretary for international finance questions um

amend their new proposal in order to address this. So everyone in here who is uh interested to really contribute right now is the best time. We have already the main aligned draft the blockchain federation was published today but the crypto value association is still gathering input and more work on the detailed deep dive in this proposing how to make things better going forward. So, please reach out to us if you want to uh contribute. If you are interested in the current state of the word, reach out to us. It's not a secret. We really all want to bring everybody together and there are just a few things that we need to address with FINA and SIP to make everything more clear. And a lot will

change if all of this goes live in two or more years from now, but hopefully it will be a good There any more questions? We'll leave it at that. Thank you very much guys. >> Thank you.