140 - The Cosmos Thesis with Sunny Aggarwal & Zaki Manian

Transcript

digital, markets, in, the, future, will, be all, markets, and, I'm, building, for, a future, in, which, digital, markets, are, open source, public, goods, I, don't, really, care about, anything, else, I, just, view, the tools, we've, built, as, cosmos, as, an essential, part, of, getting, there, I, also think, ethereum, largely, shares, this Vision um, and, so, feel, very, aligned, with ethereum, but, like, if, we're, successful, we will, have, open, source, digital, markets that, provide, economic, coordination, for the, entire, Cuban, race welcome, to, bankless, where, we, explore, the frontier, of, Internet, money, and, internet Finance, this, is, how, to, get, started, how to, get, better, how, to, front, run, the opportunity, this, is, Ryan, Sean, Adams, I'm here, with, David, Hoffman, and, we're, here to, help, you, become, more, bankless, today

we, are, going, to, explore, the, cosmos together, this, is, the, cosmos, thesis, we brought, on, Zaki, and, sunny, who, are Developers, app, developers, and, long-time Cosmos, community, members, to, talk, about the, cosmos, thesis, this, I, think, will, give you, a, 0-60, on, Cosmos, in, 90, minutes, I think, it's, a, canonical, episode, for, this community, for, this, ecosystem, in, fact, the guest, said, as, they, were, leaving, this, is probably, the, best, Cosmos, episode, they've ever, recorded, you, remember, you, be, the judge, after, this, episode, a, few, things, to look, out, for, number, one, we, talk, about the, cosmos, thesis, itself, how, it's similar, versus, how, it's, different, to ethereum, number, two, we, talk, about ethereum, as, a, tree, versus, Cosmos, as, a fungus, if, that, makes, no, sense, to, you, now

listen, to, the, episode, and, you'll, see what, we, mean, the, difference, between, the fat, protocol, thesis, and, the, tall, app thesis that's, another, distinction, we, make, and atom, 2.0, a, new, white, paper, was, just released, with, new, token, economics, and, a whole, new, Cosmos, Hub, design, we, talk about, the, new, features, and, differences in, that, design, we, also, asked, Zaki, and sunny, if, they, think, Adams, could, one, day flip, ether, in, terms, of, total, crypto market, cap, David, there's, so, much, we unpacked, in, this, episode, uh, why, are, we talking, about, it, Cosmos, that, is, and, what should, listeners, look, out, for, as, they listen the, cosmos, ecosystem, the, cosmos Community, the, cosmos, philosophy, has always, paired, nicely, with, ethereum, while

also, being, different, I, remember, reading the, cosmos, white, paper, in, in, 2018, and really, having, like, an, aha, moment, it's like, yo, this, is, something, real, that's new, and, it, was, specifically, about cross-chain, interoperability, and, even, to when, I, was, talking, to, Sunny, at, Etc forever, ago, he, was, he, said, like, the cosmos, and, ethereum, communities, have always, been, very, philosophically, aligned and, I, think, when, we, get, into, this episode, The, Listener, should, really, pay attention, to, the, I, think, the, accepted truth, that, Cosmos, and, ethereum, converge at, their, logical, conclusion, in, their design, philosophy, at, the, same, place, they both, believe, in, the, same, general, outcome of, how, these, ecosystems, look, like, but what, they're, where, they, differ, is, how

they, get, there, and, the, how, they, get there, the, Genesis, stories, for, these changes, does, impact, what, these, things ultimately, look, like, Cosmos, started, its Journey, as, a, network, of, interconnected Sovereign, application, chains, that, weave themselves, together, later, adding, a shared, security, model, ethereum, started its, Journey, with, the, Central, Security model, of, ether, proof, of, work, a, canonical single, monolithic, chain, falling, into, now the, beacon, chain, and, then, many, chains organize, around, it, we, have, the, app, train model, in, Cosmos, we, have, the, layer, 3 model, in, ethereum, we're, each, going, after the, same, design, structures, so, the listeners, should, really, pay, attention, to what, are, the, net, consequences, of, a

system, that, emphasized, the, security first, which, is, ethereum, and, ether, the asset, first, which, is, ethereum, versus, an ecosystem, that, emphasized, the, Sovereign app, chain, model, first, and, then, added security, later, what, are, the, net, effects of, that um, overall, I'm, just, uh, we've, used, this metaphor, on, Bank, list, and, I, use, this I've, used, this, in, the, podcast, that, if you, re-roll, the, dice, of, the, crypto industry, over, and, over, and, over, again you, will, see, something, like, ethereum unfold, out, of, that, a, hundred, percent, of the, time, 99.9, of, the, time, and, I, think that's, also, true, for, Cosmos, uh, and, that is, why, I, think, this, the, cosmos, and ethereum uh, there's, like, two, sides, of, the, same coin, uh, we, will, always, see, these, two models, and, I, don't, and, I, think, these, two

models, the, app, chain, model, the, Central Security, model, of, ethereum, that, is, what crypto, has, to, offer, these, are, the logical, conclusions, of, crypto, design philosophy, in, my, opinion, so, I, think, with that, context, I, think, the, listener, should be, pretty, well, equipped, to, go, into, this episode, and, get, completely, downloaded, as to, the, whole, Cosmos, Vision, the, other thing, of, course, to, think, about, as, you're listening, to, this, episode, is, where, the investment, opportunities, in, Cosmos, and David, I, think, I, want, to, talk, to, you, a little, bit, about, that, some, of, my thoughts, on, investment, opportunities, but we'll, save, that, for, the, debrief, and, of course, the, debrief, is, available, for, you who, are, premium, members, it's, our, episode after, the, episode, where, we, talk, about the, episode, that, was, uh, so, upgrade, to premium, membership, if, you, want, to, catch

that, as, well, full, disclosure, going, in, I own, atom, tokens, it, does, not, represent more, than, five, percent, of, my, Holdings, we take, disclosures, very, seriously, at bankless, so, we're, starting, to, mention them, at, the, top, of, every, episode, there's always, a, link, in, the, show, notes, if, you want, access, to, see, all, of, our, bags, our full, disclosures, are, located, there, guys we're, going, to, get, right, to, the, episode with, Zaki, and, sunny, from, Cosmos, but before, we, do, we, want, to, thank, the sponsors, that, made, this, episode, possible arbitrim1, is, pioneering, the, world, of secure, ethereum, scalability, and, is continuing, to, accelerate, the, web, 3 landscape, hundreds, of, projects, have already, deployed, on, arbitrum, 1, producing flourishing, defy, and, nft, ecosystems, with a, recent, addition, of, Arboretum, Nova

gaming, and, social, daps, like, Reddit, are also, now, calling, arbitrim, home, both arbitrim1, and, Nova, leverage, the, security and, decentralization, of, ethereum, and provide, a, builder, experience, that's intuitive, familiar, and, fully, evm compatible, on, arbitrum, both, Builders, and users, will, experience, faster, transaction speeds, with, significantly, lower, gas, fees with, the, arboretum's, recent, migration, to arborstone, Nitro, it's, also, now, 10, times faster, than, before, visit, arboretum.io where, you, can, join, the, community, dive into, to, the, developer, docs, Bridge, your assets, and, start, building, your, first, app with, arbitrum, experience, web, 3 development, the, way, it, was, meant, to, be secure, fast, cheap, and, friction, free, the layer, 2, era, is, upon, us, ethereum's, layer 2, ecosystem, is, growing, every, day, and, we

need, layer, 2, Bridges, to, be, fast, and efficient, in, order, to, live, a, layer, to life, a, cross, is, the, fastest, cheapest, and most, secure, cross-train, Bridge, with, a cross, you, don't, have, to, worry, about, high fees, or, long, wait, times, assets, are bridged, and, available, for, use, almost instantaneously, across, its, bridges, are powered, by, uma's, optimistic, Oracle, to securely, transfer, tokens, between, layer twos, and, ethereum, across, its, critical ecosystem, infrastructure, and, across, V2 has, just, launched, their, new, version focuses, on, higher, Capital, efficiency layer, 2, to, layer, 2, transfers, and, a, brand new, chain, with, polygon, all, while prioritizing, high, security, and, low, fees you, can, be, a, part, of, a, cross's, story, by joining, their, Discord, and, using, a, cross for, all, of, your, layer, 2, transferring needs, so, go, to, across.to, to, quickly, and securely, Bridge, your, assets, between

ethereum, optimism, polygon, arbitrum, or Boba, Networks, if, you've, been, listening to, bankless, you, know, that, we're, fans, of the, modular, blockchain, thesis, the, idea that, blockchains, will, separate, execution from, data, availability, and, consensus allowing, all, three, to, become, the, best versions, of, themselves, and, fuel, has built, the, fastest, modular, execution layer, in, the, industry, by, supporting parallel, transaction, execution, fuel unlocks, significantly, faster, throughput for, the, web, free, world, fuel, also, goes beyond, the, limitations, of, the, evm, with its, own, fuel, VM, which, is, more, efficient and, optimized, opening, up, the, design space, for, developers, and, lastly, fuel brings, a, powerful, developer, experience with, its, own, domain-specific, language Sway, and, a, supportive, tool, chain, called fork, with, fuel, you, can, have, the, benefits

of, smart, contract, languages, like solidity, while, adopting, the, improvements made, by, the, rust, tooling, ecosystem letting, the, fuel, development, environment go, beyond, the, limitations, of, the, evm, if you, want, to, learn, more, there's, a, link, in the, show, notes, to, see, how, you, can, get involved, with, a, fuel, Network, bankless Nation, we, are, talking, Cosmos, today, with two, of, the, best, experts, we, could, find, in the, space, Sunny, Agarwal, is, a, crypto, OG he's, been, in, the, cosmos, ecosystem, since the, very, early, days, in, the, community since, the, very, beginning, he's, a, man, of many, hats, he's, been, all, around, the, space he, started, the, blockchain, at, Berkeley, a student, Club, this, was, the, largest student, Organization, for, the, crypto world, at, the, time, and, he's, also, the co-host, of, the, epicenter, podcast, Sunny how, you, doing

I'm, doing, great, uh, you, know, just, got, off of, three, days, of, Cosmo, verse, which, was the, big, causes, conference, and, so, in decompression, mode, right, now I, understand, that, both, of, you, guys, are recovering, from, Cosmos, verse, uh, so, uh hopefully, we'll, get, uh, some, of, that energy, back, into, this, podcast, as, we, go through, we, also, have Zach, emanion, he also, wears, many, hats, in, the, cosmos, and crypto, space, he's, been, in, the, cosmos ecosystem, from, the, very, beginning, as well, he, helped, chip, most, recently cosmos's, IBC, which, is, an, interchange blockchain, protocol, he's, also, working, on the, validator, ecosystem, he's, been, an advisor, to, the, electric, Coin, Company remember, zoku, and, team, from, uh, Zuko, and team, from, Z, cash, and, he, is, a, co-founder

of, a, staking, provider, as, well, Zaki welcome, to, bank, list, how, you, doing, I'm doing, great, Cosmo, verse, was, the, best, but like, I'm, glad, that, I, I've, I, flew, out, of column, I, was, like, I, was, I, was, like, do, I stay, in, Columbia, have, gone, and, then, I I'm, so, tired, I, was, like, I'm, gonna, leave so, this, was, in, Columbia, back, yeah, we, uh we, did, it, in, MIDI, in, Colombia um, nice, but, you, know, Colombia, is, getting a, lot, of, love, this, year, from, the, the crypto, Community, with, Devcon, being, there for, sure, um, it's, great, it, was, there, was there's, actually, a, Bitcoin, Cafe, like, a crypto, Cafe, in, Medellin, that, we, got, to we, got, to, do, some, events, at

um, uh, and, I, I, you, know um, I, think, Bogota, is, going, to, be, very different, but, from, the, experience, of Medellin, ended, up, being, phenomenal, so how, was, the, conference, for, for, people that, weren't, able, to, attend, uh, and, also people, that, are, uh, wondering, what, the temperature, is, during, the, bear, Market what, was, the, energy, like, what, was, the Vitality, like, how, many, people, were, there uh, fill, us, in, on, what, the, Cosmos, first conference, was, like I, don't, think, you, could, tell, that, it, was a, bear, Market, uh, we, had, like, so, you, know we, had, this, is, the, second, Cosmo, verse, we had, the, first, one, was, last, year, in Lisbon, uh, it, was, like, a, sandwich, in between, like, eat, Lisbon, and, the, Solana conference, and, I, think, there, were, maybe like, 500, or, so, people, there, uh, at controverse, this, year, I, think, there, was

about, 1500, people, so, it's, like, three times, bigger, while, we're, in, a, bear market, and, like, you, know, last, time, there was, a, lot, of, like, overflow, traffic coming, from, the, other, places, it's, like here, it's, like, everyone, who, came, here like, came, for, Cosmos, right, and, like, so yeah, just, like, shows, how, much, like there's, a, lot, of, excitement, and, like growth, in, the, last, one, year, even and, a, little, harder, to, get, to, uh, than Lisbon, yeah, definitely, yeah, you, couldn't get, there, uh, you, couldn't, uh, uh, uh, you you, know, you, weren't, already, there, for other, stuff, or, it's, like, yeah, I'd, say, a third, or, more, people, were, just, like, okay like, I'm, in, town, for, uh, uh, uh, for, break point, and, for, near, con, I, might, as, well do, Cosmo, versus, two

um, that, was, kind, of, the, the, you, know, it was, all, I, also, also, like, just, like, again the, origin, of, this, conference, is, is, like very, typical, of, Cosmos, which, is, like, a person, uh, named, cryptocito um, sort, of, uh, he's, a, YouTuber, uh, uh, has a, relatively, popular, YouTube, channel about, crypto, he, got, interested, in, Cosmos in, early, 2021, he, started, to, build, up, a following, in, the, community, uh, Jack, uh zamplin, who, is, my, co-founder, another, one of, my, projects, called, similier, Finance has, another, validator, business, and, I, was also, like, a, core, Dev, in, the, ecosystem, so Jack, and, I, had, been, kind, of, looking, for

people, to, help, us, bring, the, message, of Cosmos, to, the, world, and, we, found, that you, know, cryptocito, was, doing, a, really good, job, we, ended, up, spot, we, had, taken up, there, was, a, marketing, Dow, that, was set, up, called, prop, 34, that, took, money from, the, cosmos, sub, treasury, we, ended, up spending, what, was, remaining, in, that, to sponsor, and, like, give, cryptocito, the funds, to, do, uh, Lisbon, this, time, it, was like, multiple, chains, so, it's, the, same person, now um, you, know, held, this, much, larger conference, in, a, much, more, difficult location, uh, he, had, a, staff, like, 150 people, working, on, it, it, was, sponsored directly, from, governance, proposals, from multiple, Cosmos, chains um, and, you, know, 1, 600, people, could, throw

up, that, were, there, were, After, parties and, events, every, night, it, did, not, feel like, a, bear, Market, at, all, and, uh, and people, I, think, and, then, like, the, other thing, that, was, really, unique, about, this is, there's, literally, never, been, a, cosmos conference, where, anything, was, announced like, really, like, the, little, Chains, would announce, stuff, but, like, ecosystem, level announcements, had, never, happened, before uh, at, a, conference, and, we, actually, were able, to, do, both, the, atom, 2.0, white, paper and, uh, the, announcement, of, usdc, coming natively, to, Cosmos, in, our, conference David, I, remember, like, we, talked, about HCC, you, know, I, was, saying, like, when, we we, had, our, interview, there, I, said, Etc, is my, favorite, conference, uh, and, part, of, it

is, because, you, know, I, don't, know, I, just always, feel, that, etcc, has, a, very Community, just, the, fact, that, it's, a community, organized, conference, rather than, Foundation, organized, conference, it always, had, like, a, more, interesting energy, to, it, to, me, than, even, Devcon, I, I like, BTC, better, than, Devcon, and, like every, other, uh, ecosystem, it's, always like, foundations, on, conferences, right Cosmos, feels, very, much, like, HCC, for, the same, reason, it's, not, a, foundation, thrown conference, it, is, like, random, Community member, decided, to, do, this, yeah, and, it's very, emblematic, of, what, Cosmos, actually is, which, is, a, little, bit, more, bottom, up than, top, Town, orchestrated, uh, and, so what, would, you, credit, the, success, of this, conference, well, uh, the, the, cosmos uh, Cosmos, verse, was, harder, to, get, to, in

a, different, part, of, the, world, uh, three times, as, many, people, showed, up, while crypto, prices, have, gone, in, one, third right, and, so, you, know, one-third, the amount, of, of, capital, in, the, space, yet three, times, the, amount, of, people, showed up, like, why, where's, all, this, energy, in Cosmos, coming, from, what, would, you, guys credit, the, the, Vitality, uh, the, source, of Vitality, here I, mean, Cosmos, as, an, ecosystem, has, just grown, a, lot, I, think, especially, you, know in, the, last, three, four, months, I, think, I think, the, dydx, sort, of, announcement, of like, switching, over, to, Cosmos, uh, you know, I, know, Zaki, was, pretty, involved with, that, what, like, that, I, think, just got, a, lot, of, people's, attention, where you, know, it, was, a, and, people, are, like wait, here's, this, like, project, that's

like, been, building, on, ethereum, for forever, and, like, you, know, why, did, they suddenly, decide, to, like, you, know, make this, sort, of, switch, right, and, so, people start, to, look, into, like, on, looking, at the, reasons, that, why, like, dydx, did, it and, started, learning, more, about, you, know the, cosmos, thesis, is, very, complex, and you, know, it's like, you, know, when, you're, switching, from ethereum, to, I, don't, know, Avalanche, like oh, okay, cool, it's, faster, yeah, it's, like no, but, like, you, know, when, you're switching, to, Cosmos, there's, like, a, whole set, of, like, fundamentally, different things, that, we're, doing, that, like, uh, and people took, one, to, do, with, the, do, idx announcement, people, start, to, actually look, into, that, and, I, think, a, lot, of people, just, got, very, interested, in, the Theses, that, we, have, at, Cosmos, and, that

kind, of, just, like, snowballed, like, from there, over, the, last, few, months, before, we break, down, I, think, the, thesis, and, how this, like, really, complicated, idea, of, how we're, different, from, ethereum um, and, how, we're, basically, different from, the, blockchains, than, most, people are, probably, familiar, with um, the, uh, I'll, also, say, it, was, just, like you, know, we, are, also, basically, like, what four, or, five, months, out, from, the, Terra collapse, and, Luna, was, built, on, top, of the, cosmos, technology, stack, it, was, it was, part, of, Cosmos, it, was, connected, to IBC um, the, anchor, carry, trade, passed, through both, the, cosmos, Hub, and, uh, osmosis, in, a very, large, way, so, we, were, very

economically, connected, to, it, its collapse, was, almost, felt, like, it, felt like, was, a, devastating, blow, to, the ecosystem um, uh, you, know, almost, everybody, lost money, it, was, like, it, was, a, huge, thing um, and, uh, you, know, and, I, don't, know, you know, we, we, can, we, it's, certainly, if, we want, to, talk, about, you, know, how, we, all feel, about, the, the, whole, UST, story um, but, it, was, it, did, feel, like, there, was a, moment, at, which, there, was, a, bottom there, uh, where, we, kind, of, felt, like, you know, it, was, like, unclear, whether, or, not Cosmosphere, is, really, going, to, how, long it, was, going, to, take, us, to, recover and, the, recovery, happened, like, far, more quickly, than, anyone, have, anticipated

um, and, like, you, know, it, basically, I, got I, got, so, much, busier, in, like, maybe, like two, weeks, after, the, tarot, collapse, and it's, just, like, not, slowed, down, like, uh at, all, since, then yeah, that's, really, interesting, you're right, this, is, uh, this, is, not, long, after the, Terra, collapse, would, you, guys believe, that, was, just, like, less, than five, months, ago, when, that, whole, thing imploded, uh, it's, been, it's, been, a, wild five, months, for, us, yeah, I, bet, and, um there's, definitely, a, lot, of, excitement one, thing, I, you, know, I've, been, observing of, course, in, the, cosmos, ecosystem, is, the amount, of, building, that's, going, on there's, also, this, kind, of, renewed interest, maybe, through, dydx, and, others but, even, in, the, ethereum, community

around, app, chains, which, I'm, sure, we'll talk, about, a, little, bit, more um, and, and, really, are, I, think, our, goal for, this, episode, is, you, know, David, and, I cover, a, lot, in, the, kind, of, the, ethereum ecosystem, on, uh, the, podcast, right, so, you guys, have, to, teach, two, ethereum, idiots like, what, Cosmos, is, what, it's, all, about I, will, say, I, was, involved, in, the, cosmos ecosystem, in, the, early, days, and, so, um it's, always, been, a, community, that's, been kind, of, um, I've, been, I've, been, observing and, I've, liked, and, I've, appreciated, kind of, the, the, efforts, of, but, you, guys, have come, a, long, way, as, well, Cosmos, the, idea has, come, a, long, way, and, we, want, to, talk about, that, trajectory, I, think, we, also want, to, talk, a, little, bit, about, the

Terra, Luna, collapse, but, let's, save, that maybe, until, a, little, bit, later, uh, first let's, talk, Cosmos, the, idea, and, David said, this, to, me, before, we, recorded, uh that, you, told, him, Sonny, Cosmos, has, been called, an, idea, more, than, an, actual, thing those, are, your, words, I, think, uh, Sunny Cosmos, being, a, thing, uh, isn't, a, thing it's, more, of, an, idea, what, do, you, mean, by that, what, is, the, idea, of, Cosmos, was, the central, thesis, yeah, sure, the, the, central thesis, of, Cosmos, was, that, you, know, we are, going, to, see, a, world, of, not, a, few blockchains, but, many, many, blockchains

most, of, them, being, application, specific blockchains, or, app, chains, and, that, these block, and, there's, no, such, thing, as, a single, final, settlement, layer, the, the entire, in, the, real, world, there, is, no subtle, final, settlement, layer, we're going, to, have, many, many, settlement layers, and, they, you, know, every blockchain, is, going, to, be, the, settlement layer, for, its, own, native, assets, and, its own, native, state, and, that's, what, gives it, fundamentally, sovereignty, right Roll-Ups, and, other, you, know, systems, they don't, have, true, sovereignty, from, from the, main, chain, right, the, main, chain, is what, finally, dictates, uh, what, these, fine it's, the, final, Arbiter, of, Truth, in, you know, this, globalized, system, while

Cosmos, is, a, very, you, know, we, we're, all like, localists, basically, we, we, believe that, like, Hey, we're, not, trying, to, build the, world, computer, as, Ethan, Buckman, puts that, he, we're, trying, to, build, community computers, and, let, these, Community computers, all, uh, talk, to, each, other um, so, yeah, that's, I, know, exactly, you want, to, add, anything, to, that um, all, I, will, say, is, so, there's, another thing, the, the, sunny um, I, know, like, the, cosmos, thesis, really believes, which, is, you, know, so, one, of, the things, we, say, is, that, like, Cosmos, is coming, to, kill, your, fat, protocol, thesis um, the, uh, so, the, fat, protocol, thesis, is that, like, the, way, that, blockchains, will

accrue, value, is, that, you'll, build, a blockchain, it'll, you, know, typically, a protocol, with, a, token, that, token, will have, a, bunch, of, apps, on, top, of, it, but because, the, the, infrastructure, where, in the, network, effects, around, it, are represented, by, the, token, that's, where the, most, valuable, crew, and, the, cosmos thesis, has, been, from, the, get-go, that, the where, the, value, accrual, layer, is, is, the app, layer, that, the, that, like, it's, the application, layer, that, is, the, thing, that and, that, the, thing, that, is, closest, to the, users um it's, the, it's, it's, the, application where, we're, intent, and, Order, flow, and everything, originates um, and, that's, the, layer, of, the, system, uh where, the, value, will, accrue

um, and, we, basically, purpose, built, a blockchain stack, for, people, to, build, the, best possible, app, layers, rather, than, thinking that, like, hey, I, built, another, Fat, perk what, an, analogy, that, I, like, to, pull through, is, like, you, know, if, you're, in the, early, web, in, you, know, in, the, 1990s you, know, a, lot, of, people, were, thinking that, the, way, to, bet, on, the, web, was, AOL and, CompuServe, but, now, with, like retrospect, we, know, it, was, Google, and Amazon, right, the, apps, are, what, were sticky, and, actually, had, user relationships, and, the, infrastructure layers, uh, you, know, really, actually, what ended, up, actioning, was, the, biggest, apps actually, ended, up, building, their, own infinite, layers, and, became, actually, the biggest, infra, providers, as, well, they

were, like, AWS, but, really, it, is, the, the app, developers, are, the, ones, who, like, you know, they'll, they'll, move, between infrastructure, providers, but, users, are sticky, to, the, applications so, we, want, to, we, want, to, leave, that, out there, so, one, idea, you're, presenting, is rather, than, fat, protocol, fat, app, thesis would, that, be, a, way, to, summarize, what you, just, said, Cosmos, is, fat, app, I actually, like, this, term, called, tall, acts because, one, of, the, things, at, least, with osmosis, what, we, really, believe, in, is like, vertical, integration, so, like, you know, we, build, our, front, end, we, build, our Dex, modules, but, we, build, the, chain itself, and, we, just, happen, to, build, like the, primary, wallet, for, the, cosmos

ecosystem, as, well, but, we, have, this, like you, know, the, one, what, we, what, we actually, take, a, lot, of, inspiration, from is, like, apple, which, is, like, a, very vertically, integrated, system, but, that like, gives, them, I, think, the, best, ux, of any, like, any, uh, product, line, right, and so, you, know, I, call, these, the, tall, apps right, for, highly, vertically, integrated so, just, to, put, a, a, visual, a, metaphor, on this, whole, thing, uh, ethereum, has, like it's, got, this, one, canonical, layer, one and, then, we, have um a, proliferation, of, layer, twos, there's like, five, or, six, real, big, ones, and, then like, now, right, now, is, like, a, big conversation, going, on, in, the, ethereum space, with, layer, threes, and, this, kind, of looks, like, a, tree, there's, like, a, big Central, tree, trunk, uh, there, are, like

four, or, five, smaller, branches, but, still pretty, big, that, come, out, of, this, tree trunk, and, then, they, fracture, off, into like, thousands, and, thousands, of, smaller branches, and, twigs, that, eventually, turn into, leaves, and, maybe, these, leaves, can be, like, the, applications, that, you, know capture, the, energy, of, of, the, Sun, for example, but, it, all, it, all, collapses, down to, a, central, point, a, central, trunk, uh and, that, was, really, the, ethereum, beacon chain, and, heat, staking, at, the, very, very bottom, of, this, whole, thing, uh, the, cosmos model, is, a, little, more, of, a, of, a, mesh network, uh, I, kind, of, want, to, say, a spider, web, but, even, a, spider, web, has kind, of, like, a, center, point, but, it, still kind, of, looks, like, a, more, flat, there's not, actually, a, point, in, the, middle, and these, things, weave, together

as, like, a, natural metaphor, is, or, like, the, correct, analogy is, like, a, fungus, the, mycelial, networks that, like, pervade, the, like, forests, and the, Earth, and, and, do, make, it, so, that, the trees, can, actually, live, right, you, know yes, that's, yeah, you, have, definitely, used this, metaphor, but, much, better, than, I have, but, that's, definitely, right, uh, it's Google, searching, mycelial, Network, for those, that, don't, have, an, image, in, their head, as, a, result, of, that, will, definitely definitely, help um, and, so, and, so, the, idea, here, is, that like, is, it, and, the, cool, thing, about, the mycelial, networks, is, that, they're, just like, res, automatically, resilient, because there, is, no, Central, focal, point, can, you guys, kind, of, just, like, lean, into, this

metaphor, and, help, me, unpack, it, a, little bit, more so, I, think, one, of, the, big, things, that we've, really, believed, in, in, Cosmos, is that, like, we, do, think, that, like, the, the if, there, was, like, a, core, difference, of, a vision, let's, say, between, like, sunny, and I, and, vitalik, is, this, idea, that, like um, so, like we, we, think, and, like, these, I'll, try, and like, quickly, unpack, the, argument, like where, like, my, perception, of, vitalik's views, and, our, perception, of, our, views which, is, okay, like, vitalik's, view, is like, monetary, premiums, are, really, hard but, it's, really, hard, to, build, like, a secure, decentralized, censorship

resistance, system, without, securing, it using, a, monetary, perimeter, so, you, have this, thing, with, where, you, have, the, the root, monetary, premium, chain, which, is, the beacon, chain, and, that, everything descends, from, that, monetary, premium chain, uh, uh, is, secured, by, the, and, like reinforces, with, that, monetary, premium chain um, you, know, sunny, at, Cosmo, versus presented, this, idea, of, mesh, security um where, Cosmos, chains, actually, opt, in to, uh, additional, slashing, conditions around, each, other, we, believe, in, like, ad hoc, economic, networks, forming, so, sh, so you, know, the, the, the, you, know, to, you know, you, have, these, like, natural, natural

trade, routes, of, which, the, you, know, UST carry, trade, was, one, of, them, but, like, you have, trade, routes, between, Adam, and osmosis, you, have, have, a, number, of, large crypto, exchanges, run, their, own, Cosmos change, including, okx, and, crypto.com, so then, you, have, trade, routes, between, their user, bases, and, other, Cosmos, chains um, and, you, see, this, like, at, what, we, are sort, of, expecting, is, this, like, network of, value, to, form, between, these, Community computers um, and, if, and, like, some, of, the, ideas that, we're, exploring, now, and, are, sort, of in, their, in, our, in, our, vision, of, the future, is, to, make, sure, that, security, and economic, uh, uh, security, can, travel, with economic, interdependence, but, you, don't

need, this, like, root, structure, yeah, the like, so, I, like, an, example, of, this um, what, what, it, would, be, chains, provide bilateral, security, agreements, with, each other, so, in, this, app, chain, model, people have, always, asked, like, oh, how, are, you going, to, get, enough, Security, on, every individual, app, chain, the, analogy, I, like to, give, it, you, know, I, like, geopolitical analogies, uh, and, so, for, me, the, example is, NATO, NATO, is, a, a, collective, of sovereign, countries, they, all, have, their own, governance, systems, they, don't, meddle in, each, other's, internal, politics, but they, have, a, security, uh, a, mesh, security system, right, they, if, Article, 5, says, that if, any, one, of, the, NATO, countries, gets attacked, they, all, rush, to, each, other's

defense, and, I, think, the, same, thing happened, will, happen, with, Cosmos, chains as, well, and, it, will, be, based, a, lot, off what, I, think, what, zaki's, point, was, it'll be, based, a, lot, off, of, economic relationships, so, if, you, look, at, uh, so I'll, give, an, example, of, osmosis, and axillar, so, axlar, is, you, know, currently the, most, popular, bridge, between um you, know, ethereum, and, the, cosmos ecosystem, osmosis, of, the, Dex, osmosis makes, up, about, 70, of, axelars, tvl, right now, while, four, of, the, top, 10, assets, on osmosis, are, wbtc, die, and, usdc, are, coming via, the, axillar, bridge, so, it's, like, hey we, have, such, high, economic, relationship with, each, other it, would, suck, a, lot, for, osmosis, if axillar, got, like, attacked, if, it's, like

for, axillary, osmosis, guard, attack, we should, be, both, providing, shared, security to, each, other, basically, right, osmo holders, should, be, putting, up, economic stake, backing, axillar, validators, while axillary, Axel, uh, Staker, should, be putting, up, economic, State, backing osmosis, developers, so, basically, by, these two, systems, doing, Mass, security, with each, other, they, actually, have, the economic, value, of, both, of, the, market caps, combined, securing, each, chain, and you, can, imagine, that, this, scales, with more, and, more, chains, you, know, uh, we'll have, a, network, of, five, change, ten, chains and, all, the, sum, value, of, all, of, the, app chains, is, going, to, be, you, know, in, this you, know, it, will, provide, greater, or equal, security, that, to, like, these, L1

systems, today can, we, talk, about, the, trade-off, here which, is, a, trade-off, I, think um, Cosmos, has, made, from, the, very, early days, and, Zaki, just, alluded, to, it, and sunny, I, think, you, you, also, alluded, to, it in, your, answer, which, is um, sacrificing, monetary, premium, uh essentially, saying, that, the, the, token, at the, bottom, of, a, layer, 1, chain, does, not need, to, and, perhaps, should, be, designed not, to, accrue, monetary, premium, so, coming from, maybe, kind, of, the, the, Bitcoin, space and, also, now, the, the, ethereum, space obviously, for, Bitcoin, monetary, premium is, the, thing, that, is, the, app, of, Bitcoin

right um, in, ethereum, I, think, the, community, has uh, most, recently, and, more, recently adopted, monetary, premium, as, part, of, its security, Defense, Force, and, when, we've had, Justin, Drake, and, others, on, on, the podcast, is, kind, of, like, maybe, less, the fat, protocol, thesis, and, more, kind, of, the fat, money, thesis, which, is, the, idea, that if, you, can, create, monetary, premium, in your, base, layer, asset, you, essentially get, like free, security, it's, like, mimetic, security for, your, entire, network, for, the, entire tree, trunk, and, all, of, the, chains, that are, built, on, top, and, so, why, not, number one, and, then, also, secondly, how, can, other layer, ones, compete, against, essentially

free, security, it, gets, a, chain, and, an ecosystem, with, monetary, premium, and, this is, something, I, think, Adams, has, you, know Cosmos, and, atoms, being, the, token, of, the cosmos, Hub, at, least, which, is, just, one Hub, in, the, mesh, network, of, course, is, not the, thing, the, cosmos, universe, is, much larger, than, just, one, Hub, but, uh, in, the in, the, cosmos, Hub, design, it's, been, kind of, sacrificed, the, idea, of, atoms, is, not to, accrue, a, monetary, premium, but, it seems, like, you're, giving, that, up, what about, this, trade-off, uh, Sunny, what, do you, think so um, so, about, the, you, know, getting, the free, Economic, Security, I, actually, think that, the, mess, security, is, actually, a non-rent, extractive, way, of, getting, uh free, Economic, Security, when, you're

building, on, top, of, an, L1, that, has, this monetary, premium, there, is, actually, some you, know, rent, that's, being, extracted whether, it's, like, you, know, being, forced to, pay, transaction, fees, in, that, token, or giving, the, Mev, value, to, that, to, that base, layer, or, while, with, the, app, change system, you, don't, and, you, use, economic relationships, to, uh, you, know, natural naturally, forming, economic, relationships to, provide, that, security, basis um, now, to, your, other, to, the, question about, like, so, this, might, anger, some, of your, listeners, but, uh, you, know, I remember, I, had, a, tweet, a, little, while ago, saying, that, like hot, take, the, cosmos, ecosystem, is, a, bunch of, undercover, Bitcoin, Maxes, and, I, know you, replied, to, that, like, yes, I, realized

this, two, years, ago, uh, and, for, me, I actually, started, building, working, on Cosmos, because, I, wanted, to, build, the, app layer, for, Bitcoin, I, saw, you, know, I, was in, I, was, working, on, ethereum, stuff, for, a while, I, saw, you, know, I, I, was, at consensus, for, a, little, bit, and, to, me, the I, don't, know the, monolithic, World, model didn't, make, sense, and, I, was, like, okay wait, a, second, Bitcoin, is, an, app, chain maybe, we, just, need, to, build, more, app chains, and, have, everything, uh, you, know we, can, build, the, the, app, layer, for Bitcoin, Bitcoin, will, just, remain, this simple, chain, and, its, only, purpose, is, to you, know, control, the, issuance, of, the Bitcoin, system, and, then, Bitcoin, will flow, off, of, the, Bitcoin, BTC, will, flow off, the, Bitcoin, chain, and, be, be, the, main money, of, the, entire, Cosmos, Network, that

we're, building, you, know, I, guess, I'm, a little, bit, less, of, a, Bitcoin, Max monetary, Maxi, as, I, used, to, be, but, you know, I'm, still, you, know, I, I definitely, put, myself, more, in, there, you dabble, yeah, I, dabble, I, don't, but, here's there's, actually, a, new, project, that, like kind, of, um, came, out, of, hiding, a, little bit, at, Cosmo, verse, uh, which, I'm, really excited, about, it's, called, Babylon, it's actually, a, way, of, using, Bitcoins, like monetary, premium, security, layer, to provide, security, to, all, the, cosmos chains, and, any, proof, of stake, chain, so what, it, is, it's, a, way, of, checkpointing proof, of, stake, block, headers, into bitcoin's, proof, of, work, system, and, you it, you, know, augmenting, proof, of, stake security, with, the, proof, of, work, security of, Bitcoin, and, you, know, you, kind, of

actually, get, a, lot, of, cool, benefits, with this, you, get, like, you, know, proof, of stake, really, secure, in, short, time, frames fast, finality, all, that, not, grease, occur in, long, time, frames, with, whole, long range, attacks, and, all, this, kind, of, stuff proof, of, work, not, very, secure, in, the short, time, frames, really, secure, in, long time, frames, and, if, you, actually, overlay these, systems, together, you, actually, get a, little, bit, of, The, Best, of, Both, Worlds and, so, uh, I, don't, know, I, think, Babylon is, actually, in, a, little, way, like bringing, back, that, idea, of, like, using the, base, monetary, uh, premium, chain, and having, it, provide, security, to, all, these chains, as, well, but, in, this, sort, of, like mesh, Network, Paradigm, you, know, it's, not it's, an, opt-in, system, it's, chains, that want, to, use, Babylon, can, it's, not, a, like

a, hard, requirement, before, we, get, to, Zaki with, the, same, question, just, uh, one, other follow-up, for, you, Sunny, so, isn't, this the, problem, though, when, we, take something, like, Bitcoin, and, we, Port, this to, Cosmos, is, we, lose, the, root, Economic Security, of, Bitcoin, now, Bitcoin, becomes like, a, lesser, secure, Bitcoin, the, native Bitcoin, on, the, Bitcoin, blockchain, so native, Bitcoin, on, the, Bitcoin, blockchain of, course, is, secured, by, all, of, the miners, right, it's, got, Bitcoin, level Sovereign, resistant, uh, security guarantees, now, when, we, move, Bitcoin, to Cosmos, now, we, have, to, trust, whatever, app chain, set, of, validators, for, our, our security, of, that, Bitcoin, asset, it becomes, a, less, secure, asset, when, it's

ported, in, that, way, because, we're, not, not sharing, the, security, isn't, this, a challenge, that, you, see yeah, so, you, know, uh, getting, secure Bridges, to, bitcoin, is, definitely, an important, Focus, for, you, know, it's, not it's, not, you, know, something, that, we're definitely, want, to, help, promote, more, of right, like, we, are, you, know, we've, been trying, to, help, Jeremy, Rubin, with, like getting, some, of, the, op, CTV, stuff, and like, you, know, more, secure, covenants, on bitcoin, which, will, allow, for, more, secure Bridges, effectively, I'm, a, big, fan, of, the the, drive, chains, model, Drive, change, is effectively, like, how, how, you, would, do IBC, for, Bitcoin um, so, you, know, I, think uh, what, I've, what, I've, learned, is, that

like pushing, on, bitcoin, development, too, hard like, if, you, the, more, you, push, at, it, the more, it's, like, kind, of, uh, pushes, back, at you, and, so, you, know, I, think, that, we're we're, building, for, the, long, term, here and, I, think, that, and, I, think, the, Bitcoin core, developers, have, like, a, 10-year 50-year, 20-year, mindset, you, know, and, I but, I, think, the, I, think, the, core Primitives, that, will, make, Bitcoin, be able, to, securely have, the, same, trust, assumptions, as, IBC will, exist, within, you, know, a, few, years Zaki, what's, your, take, on, this, whole, uh monetary, premium, thing, do, you, think, it's Much, Ado, About, Nothing, do, you, think monetary, premium, actually, doesn't, matter as, much, as, maybe, bankless, and, kind, of ethereum, and, Bitcoin, Community, think, it does

so, what, I, would, say, is I, would, I, think, too, many, teams, who, build l1s, so, like, again, so, one, thing, that, I think, is, again, is, sort, of, important, to remember, about, Cosmos, is, Cosmos, is, a 2014, project, basically, but, we, started, J like, Jay, started, it, I, started, hanging out, with, Jay, I've, been, work, we've, been talking, we've, been, working, on, it, and talking, about, thinking, about, Cosmos, back since, then, it's, gone, through, many, names but, basically, the, core, thesis, has, been the, same, uh, we, are, very, long-term Builders um, we, were, building, the, stuff, before there, was, any, money, in, it, we'll, be building, it, you, know, if, the, money, goes away, like, We, just, it, it, like, it's, an idea, that, seems, so, correct, that, it, just

has, to, be, built um, and, the, so, in, that, Spirit, of, building for, the, very, long, term, I, really, don't believe, in, building, something, that's, so fragile, that, if, you're, if, you, like, sort of, lose, the, meme, the, whole, thing collapses, right, where, it's, like, bit, you know, the, pro, problem, with, and, like honestly, I, admire, ethereum's, current monetary, premium, I, think, you, know, I think, vitalik, has, done, a, vitalik, Justin Danny, have, done, an, extraordinary, job they, don't, really, always, listen, to, me but, you, know, we, saw, that, with, Tara, a little, bit, right, they, lost, the, meme, and the, entire, system, collapsed, exactly right, so, how, do, you, build, systems, so start, by, Building, A, system, that, is

secure, in, the, absence, of, a, monetary premium, if, you, happen, to, also, get, a monetary, premium, great, you, get, like, this uh, additional, security, additional, value you, could, do, you, could, you, could, do things, differently, with um but, if, you, don't, but, if, you, don't happen, to, have, that, and, you've, still built, a, sound, system, then, you, know, it'll keep, going, uh, and, you, know, whereas, like you, know, you, we've, seen, the, flip, the other, side, of, it, which, was, also, built, on our, Tech, which, is, like, what, do, you, what does, it, look, like, when, you, build, a completely, unsound, system, the, minute, you lose, the, meme, everything, dies, uh, which was, which, was, Luna, let's, earmark, uh, this question, for, later, but, since, we're, on the, topic, of, monetary, premium, we'll, come back, to, atom, 2.0, and, the, new, economics

that, were, introduced, but, just, really quick, Zacky, so, we, can, earmark, this, for for, later, in, the, in, the, episode um, is, atom, 2.0 increasing, the, potential, for, monetary premium, of, atoms, in, your, mind, does, it make, it, better yeah, yeah, it, absolutely, is, is, part, of the, vision, that's, part, of, the, design, it is, part, of, the, vision, to, increase, the possibility, increase, the, probability that, Adam, may, have, a, monetary, premium um, Ethan, Buckman, that, is, that, is, cool that, is, cool, that, makes, me, as, a, as, a monetary, premium, Maximus, which, I probably, am, in, addition, to, a decentralization, maximalist um, it's, cool, to, see, the, cosmos, Community doing, that, can, I, give, a, little, example

about, the, mass, security, and, other, like justification, of, it, gold, is, probably, the asset, in, the, world, like, the, the, one Bearer, asset, in, the, world, that, has, the most, monetary, premium, right, now, it, has, a market, cap, of, about, 11, trillion, dollars the, top, 10, companies, by, market, cap, in the, world, have, a, higher, market, cap, than gold, combined, and, so, if, you, go, the, and that's, the, option, model, right, it's, like oh, value, comes, from, real, real, actual like, revenue, streams, and, like, same, way that, company, you, know, market, caps, come from, and, so, if, the, top, 10, companies, in the, world, have, a, greater, market, cap, than gold, why, can't, the, top, 10, app, chains have, a, greater, market, cap, and, security system, than, a, monetary, premium, basis, so your, point, there, Sunny, is, just, it's

about, like, total, Economic, Security, not Economic, Security, does, not, need, to, come from, monetary, premium, it, can, come, from, a productive, asset, that, is, adding, value, so like, Facebook, stock, for, example, uh, and like, if, you, have, the, top, 10, companies then, you, get, a, market, cap, exceeding, gold it's, interesting, yep, so, in, in, this, mesh Network, model, of, security what's, stopping, one, chain, from, just being, way, more, useful, and, Central, than the, others, and, might, that, chain, also, get some, Network, effects, and, some, liquidity liquidity, premiums, and, so, while, it, all starts, off, as, like, a, pretty, diffuse mycelial, Network, that's, very, horizontal one, chain, call, it, osmosis, as, like, the

liquidity, Center, of, Cosmos, what's stopping, osmosis, from, kind, of, just, like positioning, itself, in, the, very, center, of everything, because, everything, has, to hook, into, osmosis, for, liquidity, and, then while, the, cosmos, idea, the, cosmos ecosystem, never, actually, created, like, a beacon, chain, right, an, actual, this, is, the center is, what's, stopping, something, like osmosis, from, basically, becoming, that anyways and, what, in, your, answer, Sonny, could, you just, uh, Define, what, osmosis, is, for people, who, are, not, familiar, with, the cosmos, ecosystem yeah, sure, so, awesome, uh, osmosis, is, a, uh it's, a, DEX, app, chain, right, so, it, is, a you, know, currently, it's, an, amm, based

system, but, you, know, we're, adding, more concentrated, liquidity, style, stuff, and you, know, our, goal, is, to, build, the, best decks, possible, and, you, know, we, looked, at like, other, dexes, on, other, ecosystems whether, it's, uniswap, or, serum everything's, always, like, constrained with, the, limitations, of, the, platform it's, built, on, and, we, had, a, lot, of, ideas about, how, ux, should, work, how, like, uh, new functionality, especially, around, like privacy, and, like, new, things, that, you, we just, were, so, constrained, by, building, on like, the, like, the, you, know, we've actually, we, actually, thought, about, like building, it, on, an, evm, and, like, we're like, this, doesn't, actually, work, the things, we're, trying, to, do, won't, work, on here, and, so, you, know, by, having, our, own chain, that, we, can, go, you, know, especially

if, you, want, to, do, a, lot, of, stuff, at, the Privacy, layer, right, you, know, we, need, to go, be, able, to, change, how, the cryptography, in, the, code, base, works, well we, also, have, to, go, change, how, the wallets, work, and, like, you, know, you, have to, have, this, like, full, stock, control, and that's, sort, of, what, we, did um, and, osmosis, was, you, know, so, this, IBC thing, this, inter-blockchain communication, protocol, that, allows Cosmos, change, to, talk, to, each, other, it it, it, existed, for, a, little, while, but then, osmosis, sort, of, came, along, and, like it, was, like, the, first, killer, app, of Cosmos, right, and, there, will, be, there, are already, more, I, think, killer, apps, coming and, but, right, now, it, is, sort, of, where the, center, of, user, activity, and liquidity, has, aggregated um, you'd, say, it's, the, first, but, would

you, disclude, Tara, Luna, just, because, it blew, up, because, I, was, uh, looking, like giraffe, a, year, ago, so, Tara, Luna, was, uh they they, took, a, little, bit, longer, to activate, IBC, so, they, activated, I, that you, know, they, had, you, know, Tara, was, had quite, a, bit of, traction, but, they, were using, the, Costless, SDK, stack, and, then they, acted, I, activate I, mean, I've, talked, to, them, about, it, you know, they, they're, like, oh, there's, no benefit, of, connecting, to, the, cosmos ecosystem, you, know, we're, the, only, app and, then, osmosis, came, along, and, they're like, oh, okay, there's, something, worth connecting, to, which, is, why, they activated, IBC um, so back, to, your, question, about, like, the, you know, the, how what, we're, building, here, is, highly organic, systems, right, and, that, that's

the, whole, premise, of, Cosmos, is, like, you know, you, let, organic, systems, arise, and you, let, like, uh, you, know, the, natural Network, effects, happen, and, you, know natural, connections, will, happen, and, in any, organic, system, hayekian, system, uh you, have, power, laws, right, there, are things, that, are, it, is, fundamental, to, the nature, of, how, hayekian, systems, work, that there, will, be, power, laws, and, you, know obviously, as, an, as, an, osmosis, developer I, I, intend, osmosis, to, be, at, a, certain end, of, the, spectrum, on, those, power, laws but, you, know, I, I, think, our, goal, is, not to, be, you, know, we're, not, trying, to, build a, hub, and, spoke, system, right, I, think that, would, defeat, the, entire, point, of what, we're, trying, to, do, with, Cosmos, and we, are, you, know, that's, why, osmosis, is

contributing, heavily, to, like, things, like mesh, security, and, like, making, sure, that you, know, we, we, a, lot, of, people, had, asked us, like, hey, us, why, aren't, you, doing, like routing, through, osmosis, right, you, you know all, this, you, have, all, this, assets flowing, through, osmosis, if, someone wanted, to, send, a, token, from, you, know regen, chain, to, secret, Network, chain, for example, you, know, why, aren't, we, actually we, had, a, we, had, the, opportunity, to, allow it, to, have, all, go, flow, through, osmosis but, like, that's, just, just, not, the, vision for, how, Cosmos, works, and, we, like specifically, said, no, no, this, like, whole system, is, bad, we, sh, everything, should, be doing, point-to-point, routing, all, chains are, the, router, the, hub, for, their, own

native, assets, and, so, I, think, that's, also kind, of, why, we, wanted, to, build, this first, option, as, well, was, so, that, you know, I, our, team, you, know, me, and, Dave, and other, folks, we, had, spent, three, years building, the, uh, core, stack, of, you, know building, the, SDK, and, IVC, and, at, some point, we, wanted, to, go, build, an application, and, by, building, the application, we, can, kind, of, help, set, how you, know, be, the, good, actor, be, the, first good, be, the, good, actor, that, sets, the cultural, norms, for, how, app, change, should be, built, so, so, in, that, answer, is, it, is the, answer, yes, a, chain, could, become, the liquidity, focal, point, of, the, entire Cosmos, ecosystem, but, we, will, also, build surface, area, and, routes, around, that liquidity, Center, that, doesn't, like

formally, instantiate, it, as, a, winner, even though, it, might, be, winning, it, is, not, the winner, and, it, will, never, be, like, locked in, there, is, that, a, summary, of, your answer, David, doesn't, just, feel, like uniswap, basically, on, ethereum, yes, yes yeah, you, know, unistop, has, quite, a, bit, of competition, they, still, make, up, over, 50 of, volumes, on, ethereum, but, like, you, know it's, still, a, free, and, fair, market, that like, you, know, if, unit, stop, goes, down this, ethereum, doesn't, die, right, there's so, many, Alternatives, that, things, can flow, through, as, well, I, think, the difference, though, is, that, uniswap, is largely, a, platform, for, ether, liquidity more, than, it, is, uni, liquidity, and, when there, is, an, absence, of, a, monetary premium, asset, that's, like, instantiated or, formalized, in, the, cosmos, ecosystem

perhaps, the, osmosis, token, becomes, that asset, if, it, is, providing, its, own liquidity, to, its, own, asset, and, the osmosis, token, is, the, most, liquid, asset inside, of, Cosmos, and, starts, to, become the, money, of, Cosmos, I, think, that's, a difference, there, that's, worth, uh, worth poking, at, a, little, bit, because, then, that does, start, to, like, bacon, bacon, the osmosis, token, more, formally, into, the broader, Cosmos, ecosystem, than, uniswap does, for, the, uni, token, because, then, the osmosis, so, can, start, to, fill, the, role that, ether, plays, in, the, ethereum ecosystem, what, would, you, think, about this yeah, so, we, did, do, a, little, bit, of, that where, like, osmo, is, the, base, liquidity pair, of, uh, most, of, these, pools, but, I actually, don't, think, that's, going, to, be

a, lasting, thing, because, as, we, move towards, more, concentrated, liquidity, and order, book, style, systems, I, think, the, ux kind, of, Demands, for, stable, coins, to, be the, uh, you, know, the, quote, asset, for, most of, these, pairs, uh, you, know, people, if they're, putting, contrary, to, liquidity positions, they, want, to, say, hey, I, want, to put, it, between, 90, cents, and, a, dollar, ten right, not, like, denominating, things, in osmo, so um, you, know, I, I, I, think, with, osmosis, you know, another, thing, though, is, like, we we're, we're, not, just, the, cosmo, stack, so it, depends, on, what, you, call, Cosmos, like you, know, we, are, uh, funny, enough, you, know we're, actually, the, second, biggest, decks for, DOT, uh

like, that, is, funny, yeah, and, it's, like, so we, have, a, lot, of, Doc, coming, over, we, have you, know, Ethan, wbtc, are, the, third, and fourth, most, liquid, assets, on, osmosis, we have um, and, you, know, we, are, working, on building, up, connections, to, more ecosystems, you, know, our, one, of, our, goals is, we, want, to, be, the, place, that, if, you have, Ethan, ethereum, and, you, want, avex, on Avalanche, you, can, the, osmosis, should, be the, best, place, to, Route, it, both, from, a ux, perspective, and, liquidity, perspective I, don't, know, if, this, is, true, with respect, to, monetary, premiums, but, I, have always, seen, the, cosmos, ecosystem, they sort, of, import, different, monies, into their, kind, of, trade, route, Network, rather than, build, up, their, own, monies, maybe

maybe, thing, things, are, changing, with, uh with, atoms, and, kind, of, the, new, design and, that's, that's, being, more, conducive to, monetary, premium, but, importing Bitcoin, for, example, tokenized, version, of Bitcoin, importing, eth, now, more, recently importing, usdc, which, has, got, to, be, a, big boom to, the, cosmos, Community, Zaki, do, you, have any, thoughts, on, this, and, just, in, general how, big, do, you, think, is, the, move, for, um Circle, and, usdc, to, be, Now, supported, on Cosmos, are, you, kind, of, a, stable, coin maximalist, and, do, you, have, any, issues with, this, particular, staplecoin, design that, it's, a, bit, more, centralized, for instance so um, occlusion, so, okay, I, wanted, to, make, a couple, of, points, that, like, just, kind, of

Pop, the, stack, a, little, bit, that, like, all descend, really, nicely, down, this, so, one thing, that, I, think, is, very, different about, another, thing, that's, a, real difference, between, Cosmos, and, ethereum um, is, that, in, Cosmos, most, of, the, core devs, also, work, on, apps um, versus, in, ethereum, there's, like, like you, go, to, like, uh, uh, like um, like, um, like, uh, what, devconnect, in Amsterdam, and, you, see, this, like, massive disconnect, between, like, the, ethereum core, Dev, community, and, the, ethereum, app community, in, Cosmos, every, single, quartet like, most, of, the, like, well-known, core devs, inside, of, Cosmos, and, the, people, who sort, of, guide, and, Steward, the, other, core

devs, who, don't, want, to, think, about, Apple Air, concerns, almost, every, one, of, them has, an, app, so, like, I, have, sommelier Finance, I, also, work, on, agoric, and, agoric stable, coin, called, IST, I, work, on, the usdc, Chain, uh, or, or, the, chain, the generalized, asset, issuance, chain, that usdc, is, coming, on, to um you, know, and, I, helped, close, that close, the, deal, and, the, announcement um, and, so, there's, like, this, whole um, uh, uh which, like, gives, this, very different, feel, uh, feeling, to, the, whole ecosystem, and, also, kind, of, help, solidify this, whole, oh, it's, going, to, be, a, mesh instead, of, it's, going, to, be, like centralized, around, one, thing, because, we all, have, our, own, apps, we, all, have, our own, you, know, and, like, economic

incentives, to, like, make, sure, that, like different, coins, in, the, ecosystem, all succeed, and, Thrive um, and, so, we're, all, we're, all, constantly constructing, different, routes, and, trade routes, and, it, does, sort, of, preserve, this sort, of, decentralized, nature, of, the ecosystem, so, then, like, go, all, the, way, up onto, the, stable, coin, thing um, so, you, know, in, in, many, ways, the, uh you, know, the, I, I, would, say, like, the, the way, the, usdc, announcement, was, structured I, think, was, oh, we're, coming, to, a, lot, of change, so, it, just, like, sounds, like, okay we're, coming, to, a, lot, of, chains um but, like, honestly, what, I, would, say, is the, biggest, thing, that, I, have, seen, from the, sort, of, discussion, and, conversation with, usdc, around, Cosmo, but, coming, to

Cosmos, about, coming, to, so, like, one, of the, differences, between, Cosmos, right, is like, on, all, the, other, chains, except, for uh, uh, polka, dot, that, they're, launching on the, chain, like, the, apps, where, the, chain is, going, to, be, used, and, the, chain, where they're, issuing, are, the, same on, the, cosmos, ecosystem, they, are, issuing on, an, interchange, secured, chain, both, the understanding, that, the, majority, of, the usage, is, going, to, be, on, dydx, osmosis, say protocol, like, all, of, these, you, know Agora, all, of, these, things, so, what, I would, say, is, that, like, one, of, the, things that's, been, exciting, to, me, has, been seeing, usdc from, go, from, sort, of, ignoring, the

multi-chain, world, and, sort, of, just, like okay, we're, like, we're, gonna, maybe, we're gonna, like, we, were, on, the, like, L worldwide, kind, they, were, kind, of affiliated, with, the, fat, protocol, thesis where, they're, like, we'll, go, to, the fattest, protocols, we'll, issue, usdc, there to, okay, we, get, it, it's, all, multi-chain we, gotta, like, make, usdc, much, more natively, multi-chain um, which, is, honestly, a, challenge, for, a lot, of, the, bridging, protocols, like, you know, when, when, Sunny, says, you, know, axelr is, is, is, the, is, the, biggest, bridge, in osmosis, it's, almost, all, stable, coin volume, and, you, know, we're, bringing, usdc natively, to, Cosmos um the, the, like, most, rapid, Bridge, tokens in, general, are, primarily, stable, coins going, from, where, they, aren't, to, where

they, are, and, we're, much, more, entering, a universe, of, stablecoin, ubiquity, like, you know, essentially, now, you, know, if, you're building, a, new, L1, and, you, just, build, IBC support, you're, going, to, get, usdc, from Cosmos um, uh, from, the, from, the, from, the, from the, r, chain, like, seamlessly, and permissionlessly, which, you, could, never do, before, so, these, things, are, like, I think, the, circle, announcement, was, kind of, underplayed, as, exactly, how, big, deal it, is, because, like, literally, what, they were, just, saying, like, the, literal logical, implication, of, of, usdc, coming onto, uh, Cosmos, is, now, usdc, is, available to, any, L1, Builder, who, implements, the interblock, chain, communication, protocol and, they, get, usdc, for, free

I, think, that, is, the, big, deal, and, I, I like, the, idea, of, usdc, on, Cosmos, more than, say, something, like, some, kind, of, a Bitcoin, because, uh, usdc, itself, is, is already, a, centralized, it's, an, IOU, for, a dollar, in, a, bank, account, owned, by coinbase, right, it's, not, supposed, to provide, Sovereign, grade, security, it's not, a, crypto, native, money, at, all, and, so putting, that, on, Cosmos, just, seems, to make, sense, you're, not, really, sacrificing uh, any, of, the, um any, of, the, security, or any, of, the, kind, of, the, sovereignty, of the, money, because, it's, just, already, a dollar, it's, a, digital, dollar, but, okay, so um I'm, gonna, lay, out, another, question, I guess, I, have, for, you, guys, and, this, is again, maybe, from, a, dumb um, you, know, ethereum, Kool-Aid, Drinker, uh

point, of, view, and, you, guys, tell, me, where I'm, wrong, yeah, um, okay, so, uh, layer, twos versus, Cosmos, let's, talk, about, that, so um, yes, the, future, is, multi-chain what, people, don't, necessarily, understand is, that, there, are, kind, of, two multi-chain, visions, I, think, at, play right, not, to, say, that, both, won't, coexist I'm, sure, they, absolutely, will, co-exist but, one, is, kind, of, a, cosmos, multi-chain vision, and, the, other, is, maybe, an ethereum, multi-chain, vision, and, let, me uh, lay, out, the, the, ethereum, kind, of multi-chain, vision, because, I, understand that, a, little, bit, more, but, the, basic idea, is, all, of, the, chains, settle, back and, use, the, security, of, ethereum, right and, so, yes, the, ethereum, ecosystem, or

Universe, if, you, will, will, have, app chains, and, yes, app, chains, are, a, force Cosmos, is, absolutely, right, in, its, thesis about, this, that, app, chains, are, going, to be, a, big, deal, I, think, you, guys, have, led the, way, in, probably, the, ethereum community, is, like, oh, yeah, we, get, it, now like, we, understand, app, Chain's, big, deal yes um but, the, way, that, the, ethereum community, is, doing, app, chains, is basically, like, as, part, of, maybe, call, it a, layer, three as, part, of, kind, of, a, roll-up, so, you've got, arbitrum, and, there, are, any, trust strategy, we, just, had, um the, folks, from ZK, sync, uh, on, the, on, the, podcast, last week, or, a, couple, weeks, ago, at, the, time of, record, at, the, time, of, uh, people, will listen, to, this, and, um, that, episode, was

about, essentially, spinning, up, app, chains inside, of, what, they, called, the, layer, 2 which, just, means, basically, settled, down to, ethereum, at, the, root, at, the, end, of the, day, so, secured, by, ethereum, and, the benefit, of, this, you, guys, are, going, to emphasize, the, cost, but, let, me, tell, you what, the, benefit, is, of, this, IC, is, you get, ethereum's, level, of, security, or something, close, to, it, with, maybe, a, few minor, trade-offs, without, having, to, pay for, it, right, so, if, you, spin, up, your, own Sovereign, chain, there, is, a, military there, is, a, security, Force, the, police, in the, military, you, have, to, fund, and, those are, called, the, validators, of, the, system they, secure, the, chain, for, you, if, you're on, uh, ethereum, you, settle, down, to ethereum, you, benefit, from, a, theater

ethereum's, Economic, Security, you, don't have, to, pay, your, own, military, and, police force, and, so, that, has, both, economic advantages, it, seems, like, you, get, to preserve, much, of, the, sovereignty, though you, guys, maybe, will, disagree, and, say well, it's, not, completely, your, own, your own, kind, of, sovereignty, in, that, app chain, but, you, get, those, benefits, and then, you're, kind, of, tapped, into, the ethereum, network, and, the, ethereum community, cross, chain, bridging, becomes much, more, secure, you, get, a, lot, of benefits, from, from, that, path, so, contrast that, if, you, will, with, the, Cosmos, app chain, model, and, um, yeah, tell, me, tell, me where, the, the, ethereum, strategy, breaks down, uh but, we, have, a, name, for, that, system, it's called, Empires, and, colonies

and, we're, building, for, Sovereign, systems um start, yeah, okay, so, that, was, the, very memeable um, of, of, the, put, down, I'll, do, the, a little, bit, more, so okay, so, first, point, is, I, don't, think like, like, I, I, think, that, the, you, know part, of, the, goal, of, you, know, part, of like, the, dialogue, between, ethereum, and Cosmos, which, I, think, most, people, in ethereum, don't, really, realize, this, but this, dialogue, has, been, going, on, since like, 2014., one, of, the, co-founders, of Cosmos, was, like, an, early, guest contributor, and, gets, get, uh, uh, uh, person like, we, have, been, these, have, been

existence, systems, that, inform, each, other and, honestly, we've, been, trying, to, get convinced, ethereum, to, like, move, towards something, like, what, the, current, vision is, for, a, very, long, time, we've, been, like okay, guys, like, yes, like, we, get, it, but like, you've, got, to, understand, the, app trade, thing, like, that, has, to, like, be part, of, the, vision, and, like, it's, taken, a long, time, because, like, they, went, down this, like, sharding, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, off ramp, and, I, was, like, what, are, you, doing and, like, it, was, like, there's, a, couple offerings plasma, sharting, it, took, them, so, long, to like, be, like, single, slot, Vitality, app Shades, Okay, cool, so, they, kind, of

pixelated, a, little bit, and, they, came around, to, the, cosmos, Vision, yeah, I, I, you know, I, I, was, I, hung, out, with, vitalik, for like, a, week, earlier, this, year, and, I'm like, if, I, I, finally, convinced, you, it's taken, seven, years, but, I, finally convinced, you um so, I, I, was, so, that, you, know, there's, a there, is, a, friendliness, always, to, the ethereum, community, we, are, we, are, we, I've always, viewed, each, other, as, brothers, and in, many, ways, like, I, think, the, mission, of the, cosmosite, if, that, world, like, you're describing, of, the, ethereum, world, the idea, of, Cosmos, will, have, succeeded, and that, that's, why, we're, all, here, so, that's first, of, all, of, us, now, what, I'll, just, go

to, like, what, is, the, specific sort, of, technical, reason, is, in, my, mind, a blockchain, is, three, things, it's, an execution, environment, it's, a, data availability, system, and, it's, a, system, of bridges ethereum, is, trying, to, say, hey basically, we, want, to, build, one, of, all, of this, like, there's, like, one, canonical place, you, bridge, to, where, you, have, where you, post, your, fraud, proofs, where, you post, your, uh, uh, uh, your, yours, uh, uh, zero knowledge, proofs, we'll, provide, one, data availability, aware, called, dank, sharding um, and, then, you, can, investigate, all, the execution, environments, that, you, want the, cosmos, vision, is, Bridge, wherever, you

want, we, have, IBC, you, can, go, anywhere, you can, Bridge, anywhere, IBC, can, can, enable you, to, bridge, anywhere um post, your, your, zero, knowledge, proofs and, your, your, your, uh, fraud, groups, and everything, wherever, you, want um, you, know, Celestia, is, kind, of, part, of the, cosmos, family, it, is, a, data availability, focused, app, chain enabling, a, like, a, a, a, roll-up, type ecosystem, and, you, can, post, your, stuff there, and, then, we've, given, you, a, free toolkit, for, building, execution environments and, so, the, differences, between, the ethereum, environment, ecosystem, right, now is, one, for, the, most, part, the, execution environment, toolkits, are, not, free

um uh, which, is, which, is, I, think, a, big reason, of, you, know, why, do, idx, for instance, came, to, Cosmos, and, why, other chains, have, come, to, cosmoses, there, is, an advantage, to, being, like, hey, wait, the execution, environment, is, not, the, product of, some, company, that, like, raised, like Bill, you, know, 100, in, a, multi-billion dollar, evaluations, exactly, with, that, is that, is, that, like, um, tendermint, is, that kind, of, the Cosmosphere, it's, open, source, out, of, the box, open, source, Apache, 2, licensed, public goods, got, it, you, know, collaborated, on, by many, different, people um, where, there's, many, different, experts all, over, the, ecosystem, who, sit, in, chats with, each, other, and, just, like, work, on, it and, debug, it, every, day um, much, of, it, is, funded, by, the, Adam holders, but, it's, like, again, we, use, the

atom, fundraiser, we, use, the, speculation speculative, energy, around, Adam, to, like build this, public, good, for, everyone um so, that, was, that, was, that, was, so, that's that, I, think, is, the, best, I, also, just, I think, it's, actually, just, the, best framework, for, this, like, I, mean, you, know if, you compound, if, you, you, know, Robert, Lesnar treated, a, couple, weeks, ago, a, couple months, ago, he's, like, you, know, compound chain, tried, to, build, an, app, chain, on, you but, I, think, they, just, chose, the, wrong stack, they, chose, substrate, and, spent, a year, banging, their, head, against, the walls, and, gave, up, and, and, like, Robert Russell, said, like, hey, I, actually, think if, we, chose, the, cause, of, SDK, as, the stack, to, do, this, on, I, think, this, could have, worked, and

um, you, know apart, from, a, builder, perspective, I, think there's, actually, just, like, one, of, the big, things, is, we, can, just, build, faster with, the, causes, SDK, that, we, could, with Roll-Ups, right, like, build, so, in, rollups today, you, kind, of, have, like, two, model two, real, Frameworks, right, now, which either, everyone's, building, these, like evm, compatible, systems, but, like, I mentioned, you, know, the, stuff, we're trying, to, do, it, doesn't, work, on, the, evm we, need, we, need, a, custom, uh, framework for, that building, optimistic, rollups, or, ZK Roll-Ups, for, really, custom, State machines, is, actually, really, hard probably, the, closest, you, know, the closest, thing, right, now, is, Cairo, from from, the, starkware, team, and, you, know it's, really, impressive, what, they've, been able, to, do, but, I, mean, I'll, say, that

writing, a, text, of, the, complexity, of, what we're, trying, to, of, Osmosis, trying, to write, this, in, this, new, programming, thing called, Cairo, that's, like, very, Cutting Edge, you, know, it's, it's, like, trying, to write, in, like, you, know not, even, see, it's, like, a, proto-c, like it's, like, versus, you, know, the, stuff, that we, can, do, and, like, go, and, roster, just like, build, faster, and, I, think, build, the applications, and, build, the, ux, framework so, I, guess, like, you, know, maybe, one, one thing, is, how, to, compare, a, lot, of, this stuff, is, the, ethereum, ecosystem, and Cosmos yes, maybe, they're, more, moving, towards the, same, place, right, now, the, same, end goal, the, ethereum, ecosystem, decided, to spend, a, lot, of, time, focusing, on, you, know that, things, like, the, duck, said, like, the

fraud, proofs, and, bloody, proofs, the, data availability, stuff, while, I, think, the cosmos, ecosystem, has, focused, much, more at, a, higher, level, layer, of, the, stack, at the, you, know, the, state, machine, stuff, I think, the, cosmos, VM, is, probably, the, best designed, VM, in, all, of, crypto, because, how it, does, interchange, composability um I, that, the, the, cross, chain composability, that, we, have, in, Cosmos, is way, more, advanced, than, anything, else, you know, other, ecosystems, yeah, you, can Bridge, tokens, right, in, Cosmos, we, can have, like, Dows, on, one, chain, like, do transactions, on, another, chain, like that's, like, so, and, I, think, maybe, part, of that, comes, from, the, you, know, like documention, that, all, the, core, devs, of Cosmos, are, app, developers, as, well, and, so

that's, kind, of, informs, the, decision, and priorities, that, that, that, we, do, and, so that's, sort, of, one, of, the, trade-offs, and no, we, will, eventually, have, fraud, proofs and, validity, proofs, and, all, that, stuff for, Cosmos, SDK, chains, as, well, but, we were, just, like, oh, we're, going, to, build, a better, ux, and, like, app, features, first, I think, this, is, very, much, what, the, what the, difference, is, is, Cosmos, is, starting like, app, down, and, and, ethereum, is, almost starting, from, kind, of, like, the, base protocol, up, a, bit, more, and, so, I, yeah, I think, a, big, part, of, your, answer, was, hey the, cosmos, SDK, is, just, badass, if, you're trying, to, build, a, chain, and, like, there's nothing, comparable, in, the, ethereum community, yet, I, know, we've, we've, heard the, optimism, team, talk, about um you, know, a, Bedrock, which, is, kind, of

their, version, of, creating, kind, of, a, uh almost, like, a, WordPress, for, chains, we just, kind, of, you, know, stamped, them, out and, these, would, be, Roll-Ups, but, Layer Two, Out, of, the, Box, yeah, layer, two, out, of the, box, but, it's, not, it's, certainly, not there, yet, what's, interesting, I, think I'll, take, is, that, you, know Roll-Ups, like, to, talk, about, how, much, how like, secure, they, are, and, stuff, compared to, like, but, if, you, go, to, l2beat.com, you can, see, the, actual, screen, we, know, it, we know, it, yeah, I, would, say, the, IBC, system right, now, is, actually, more, secure, than any, of, the, most, of, the, Roll-Ups, in practice, today, well, we, also, had, um vitalikon, who, was, like, wondering, if we'll, ever, get, to, a, place, in, optimistic Roll-Ups, at, least, where, where, fraud proofs um, actually, work, because, we're, not, we're

not, there, yet, right, um, although, I, will say, ZK, EVMS, are, looking, pretty, pretty good, from, a, tech, perspective, and, uh, from from, from, that, side, of, things, but, yeah it's, it's, very, interesting, I, guess, one comment, I, want, to, make, and, then, just, a quick, question, is, it, does, seem, like because, all, of, the, cosmos, core developers, are, also, app, Developers, app chain, developers, they, probably, from, put on, your, app, chain, hat, you, guys, are, just willing, to, use, whatever, technology, app chain, technology, is, best, right, and, right now, that, seems, to, be, Cosmos, for, you, but like, if, there, was, a, way, to, do, kind, of, of Cosmos plus, settling, on, ethereum, you, might decide, to, migrate, your, app, there, it's

just, not, been, the, best, approach, to, date right, the, cosmos, Community, has, has provided, the, best, app, chain, tools, the brave, wallet, is, your, secure, multi-train on-ramp, into, web3, and, it's, built directly, into, the, brave, privacy, browser gone, are, the, days, of, managing, multiple wall, extensions, that, put, you, at, risk, of fishing, spoofs, and, tracking, with, the brave, wallet, you, can, securely, manage your, crypto, assets, across, more, than, 100 different, chains, including, ethereum layer, tubes, Solana, and, more, all, without downloading, risky, extensions, the, brave wallet, is, easy, to, set, up, and, removes, a headache, of, jumping, between, Wallace, and extensions, it's, lightweight, but, packed with, great, features, like, built-in, token swaps, buying, and, holding, nfts, with, a gallery, view, and, support, for, Hardware wallets, but, also, much, more, than, that because, Brave, is, shipping, new, features

every, single, month, with, a, mission, to make, web3, easier, to, navigate, for, its over, 55, million, users, while, extensions are, a, thing, of, the, past, so, get, started with, Graves, web, 3, ready, browse, today, an experience, of, decentralized, web seamlessly, without, all, the, Clutter, you can, download, the, browser, at, brave.com banklist, and, click, the, wall, icon, to, get started, in, all, of, my, years, in, crypto, I have, never, been, hacked, scammed, or, lost money, to, a, thief, and, a, lot, of, that credit, goes, to, my, ledger, Hardware, wallet the, love, your, Nano, X, and, The, Ledger, Nano S, Plus, Hardware, wallets, allow, users, like you, and, me, to, secure, and, manage, all, of our, crypto, assets, and, our, nfts, all, with the, security, of, storing, users, private Keys, offline, and, Out, Of, Reach, from hackers, The, Ledger, Nano, X, is, the, perfect Hardware, wallet, for, managing, your, crypto

and, nfts, on, the, go, because, it, connects to, your, phone, with, Bluetooth, and, has, a nice, big, screen, for, easy, transaction readings, Ledger, has, also, upgraded, the iconic, Ledger, Nano, s, and, made, the, new Ledger, Nano, s, device, more, defy, and, nft friendly, making, it, the, perfect, Hardware wallet, for, beginners, Ledger, has, truly maximized, for, both, ease, of, use, and security, so, discover, which, Ledger, device is, best, suited, for, your, journey, by, going and, visiting shop.ledger.com, nexo, is, your, financial hub, for, all, your, crypto, needs, next, so let, lets, you, buy, crypto, instantly, with your, credit, or, debit, card, or, via, bank transfer, they, also, have, an, awesome Advanced, trading, platform, called, nexo Pro, that, pays, you, rewards, when, you, swap crypto, assets, and, nexo, also, lets, you earn, interest, on, your, crypto, in, Bitcoin eth, or, other, assets, and, they, also, give

you, an, instant, crypto, line, of, credit with, as, low, as, zero, percent, APR, and, they also, give, you, access, to, a, crypto, backed MasterCard, of, course, earning, you, more crypto, when, you, use, it, so, enhance, your financial, life, with, nixo, who, ensures, all credit, lines, are, over, collateralized with, insurance, on, all, custodial, assets next, though, the, right, place, for, your crypto, so, click, the, link, in, the, show notes, to, join, over, 5, million, users, who are, getting, the, most, out, of, their, crypto um one, question, though, and, this, is, a throwback, maybe, to, to, 2018 2017-2018, and, this, was, I, remember, at, the time, there, were, two, big, interoperability chains, because, this, was, the, narrative, it was, uh, polka, dot, and, it, was, Cosmos um, and, you, just, were, talking, about, a

failed, attempt, from, the, compound, team, to actually, build, something, in, in, substrate that, you, know, the, poke.tech, has, Cosmos won, that, war, do, you, think, Cosmos, versus polka, dot, is, Cosmos, ahead, and, I'm, asking for, obviously, you're, probably, going, to say, yes, because, you're, on, team, Cosmos but, like, give, me, some, I, objective reasons, for, why, you, think, that's, true um, yeah, okay, so we, could, talk, about, a, little, bit, about, I mean, we, have, many, friends, at, parity, in the, in, the, polka, dot, Community, uh, IBC two, polka, dot, is, also, being, built, by, a team, called, composable, Finance, another exciting, thing, just, talking, about, all the, ZK, progress, is, ZK, IBC, has, gone, from being, like, maybe, it's, like, five, years

away, to, like, maybe, it's, like, a, year, away um there's, like, a, lot, of, exciting, teams that, have, have, kind, of, come, in, and started, building, uh, the, the, building blocks, of, ZK, IVC, which, would, potentially allow, for, much, more, interoperability with, ethereum, so, just, like, kind, of, talk about, all, those, things, but, then, like like, get, to, the, heart, of, your, question polka, dot, versus, Cosmos, which, model, is winning um dot, Market, capwise, dot, is, winning but, okay, so, like, you, know, you, heard, in the, same, sentence, it, like, basically, the same, presentation, from, Circle usdc, is, launching, a, polka, dot, it's launching, before, it's, launching, on Cosmos, absolutely, true

does, polka, dot, have, an, app, that's, going to, Mint, a, billion, dollars, of, usdc, on, it no right, we, have, dydx, like, when, usdc, goes live, on, on, on, on, uh, on, uh, Cosmos, the floor, mint, is, a, billion, dollars just, to, move, the, dydx, user, base, from starkware, to, with, to, to, Cosmos, this, is the, cut, like, I, mean, that, that's, like it's, a, very, hard, number, it's, a, very, hard metric, but, it's, like, like, this, is, what happens, when, you, bring, the, best, apps, to your, ecosystem, and, you, don't, collect rent, from, your, app, developers, you, you build, an, ecosystem, into, which, of collaboration, in, which, they, can, Thrive

and, we, can, Thrive, you, get, the, best, apps and, then, as, assets, and, stuff, move, to, the ecosystem, you, you, get, these, like exponentials, of, scale, that, like, are, not possible, uh, you, know, well, in, other ecosystem, what's, interesting, about, that is, it, feels, like, polka, dot, has, maybe done, the, strategy, where, they've, tried, to split, the, difference, between, ethereum and, Cosmos, and, because, they've, been, in the, middle, like, the, middle, just, hasn't held, right, whereas, like, ethereum, it doesn't, just, like, yeah, the, middle doesn't, hold, and, so, ethereum, is, just like, hey, where um, we're, an, Empire, I, guess, I, don't, think particularly, think, they're, an, evil empire, but, in, in, an, Empire like, they're, not, metallic, certainly, not evil, no, one, would, say, that, but, it's, all it's, not, evil, there's, some, rent

extraction, and, there's, all, sorts, of things, right, I, get, that, and, it's, not nearly, it's, as, I, don't, consider, it nearly, as, adversely, selective, as, as polka, dots, sure, you, are, getting, these enormous, Network, effects, from, it, well but, so, you, have, that, and, it's, like, it's kind, of, like, uh, the, United, States, right and, all, of, the, chains, are, sort, of, States within, the, United, States, there's, a federalist, kind, of, like, notion, to, it, but a, you, know, Confederacy, of, States, as, well and, then, you've, got, Cosmos, on, the, other side, which, is, just, like, Anarchy, almost it's, not, Anarchy, but, it's, almost, like hey, anything, any, city-state, can, spin, up we'll, we'll, do, a, network, if, it's advantageous, we'll, do, Sparta, and, Athens will, make, an, alliance, but, maybe, we, won't Maple, go, to, war, but, maybe, we, will, and like, it's, like, it's, very, loose, but

there's, no, rent, collection, paid, to, the kind, of, the, cosmos, Hub, then, you, have polka, dot, which, kind, of, tried, to, split the, difference, here, where, they, tried, to have, kind, of, the, uh, you, know, the sovereignty, of, all, of, these, chain experiments, but, then, they, ask, the, chains to, pay, rent, economically, bat, back, to, dot holders, right, you, have, to, rent, out, your parachain, in, the, polka, dot, Network, right and, it, just, seems, like, that, model, is, not picked, up, from, an, economic, perspective and, this, is, why, very, much, right, now, in crypto, maybe, this, has, always, been, the case, I've, I, just, see, these, two, sides there's, ethereum, on, one, side, and, there's Cosmos, on, the, other, and, these, are, the two, kind, of, parallel, ideas, that, are playing, out, in, crypto, before, us, in, 2022.

we've, used, this, metaphor, before, uh, Ryan is, the, one, that, put, this, into, my, brain is, that, uh Nature, has, made, a, crab, like, 10, 15, 20 different, times, throughout, history, and these, crabs, are, unrelated, to, each, other like, on, the, bio, uh, evolutionary, line, and that's, just, because, the, crab, is, a, good strategy, and, some, of, the, lines, I've, been using, on, this, like, metaphor, is, that, if you, re-roll, the, dice, over, and, over, and over, again, about, how, the, crypto, industry forms, you'll, get, ethereum, every, single time, and, it, also, I, think, goes, to, show with, Ryan, was, just, saying, you'll, also get, Cosmos, it, is, the, Central, Security model, of, ethereum, versus, the, app, chain model, of, Cosmos, and, that, is, like, the whole, thing, maybe, bitcoiners, will, be

like, oh, and, there's, also, the, proof, of work, money, uh, strategy, as, well, maybe that, maybe, that's, also, true, but, uh, my opinion, that's, a, type, of, app, chain, yeah okay, sure, that's, an, app, chain, right, uh so, it's, it's, one, of, these, two, flavors maybe, maybe, it's, a, 50, 50, split, maybe it's, an, 80, 20, split, but, it's, definitely not, 100, zero, I, definitely, will, take, that into, account, I, want, to um, talk, about, Mev, I, want, to, go, down, the Mev, Rabbit, Hole, a, little, bit, uh, because I, think, that, will, also, help, uh illustrate, the, incentive, for, apps, to, be their, own, app, chain, uh, Sunny, can, you talk, about, the, Mev, model, of, ethereum, and like, we, can, use, uniswap, as, an, example Dan, elitzer, just, put, a, fantastic, article talking, about, uh, uniswap, and, all, of, the

money, it, makes, as, Revenue, versus, the money, it, leaks, to, the, ecosystem, and, just like, real, just, to, speed, run, that, article of, roughly, one-third, of, the, economic energy, that, go, through, uniswap, is captured, by, uh, liquidity, providers, the actual, like, service, providers, of, uniswap about, one-third, goes, to, gas, payments, to transact, on, unit, Swap, and, one, more, third goes, to, Mev, payments, front, running, back running, like, Arbitrage, opportunities, so there's, this, application, on, on, ethereum called, uniswap, and, of, all, the, costs, it takes, users, to, use, uniswap, about one-third, of, that, cost, goes, to, profits for, liquidity, providers, one-third, goes to, gas, payments, which, goes, to, Ether holders, and, one-third, goes, to, Mev, Bots

which, are, Mev, pop, and, so, the, claim, here is, that, there's, a, leaking, a, lot, of, value anytime, you, use, uniswap, so, sonny, can, you talk, about, this, in, like, the, cosmos perspective, and, how, Cosmos, and, app chains, uh, solve, some, of, these, problems that, some, of, these, Mev, problems, and, are a, less, leaky, ship, when, it, comes, to, uh value, capture, and, value, accrual, for, apps yeah, sure um, yeah, you, know, Dan's, uh, that, was, like uh, proposal, hey, we, should, build, like, a uni, chain, and, I, was, like yeah, we, we, did, it's, called, osmosis and, Dan, knows, this, Nathan, is, a, major investor, in, osmosis, uh, but, so, the, uh yeah, so

uh, Anatoly, from, Solana, had, a, you, know how, to, tweet, a, couple, of, months, ago, at this, point, but, he, basically, said, you know, he, also, doesn't, believe, in, the monetary, premium, uh, thesis, right, and, he actually, said, that, like, I, I, don't, think that's, my, I, don't, know, about, the monarchy, premium, stuff, is, a, little bit too, hand, wavy, for, me, but, the, value, of l1s, is, the, Mev, that, they, capture, and like, you, said, exactly, that, like, you, know uniswap, is, leaking, that, Mev, value, to, the user, to, to, the, base, layer, of, uh, of ethereum, right, for, osmosis, you, know for, as, a, vertically, integrated, chain there's, sort, of, three, sources, of, revenue right, I, could, see, it, we, have, our, app Revenue, which, is, like, you, know, it's, a Dax, training, fees, and, all, that, kind, of

stuff um, there's, your, transaction, fee, Revenue but, my, take, is, actually, that, transaction fee, Revenue, should, never, be, a, meaningful source, of, Revenue, uh, this, is, sort, of, my like, concern, with, the, whole, EIP, 1559 like, sound, ultrasound, money, like, thesis is, that, like, in, any, world, in, which, the transaction, fee, okay, why, is, what, are, you paying, for, with, transaction, fees, you're paying, for, like, block, space, of, a, BFD compute, system, and, the, point, is, that like, you, know, I, think, that, the, FD, block space, and, bft, compute, systems, is, going to, be, cheap, in, the, long, run, because there's, going, to, be, so, many, chains, and you, know, they're, going, to, have, a, lot, of

uh, you, know, as, more you, even, in, the, ethereum, model, as, more uh, usage, moves, onto, Roll-Ups, the, demand for, base, layer, block, sprays, will, go, down massively, and, like, users, are, not, going to, in, any, world, if, transaction, fees, are too, low, it's, not, a, meaningful, source, of Revenue, if, they're, too, high, users, are not, going, to, use, it, and, you, know ethereum, had, this, like, kind, of, like, you know, it, had, this, like, two-year, period, in the, last, starting, two, years, ago, of, like oh, okay, you, know, that, was, high, enough there's, really, high, fees, but, users, were still, using, it, because, there, was, no, real Alternatives, right, but, I, don't, know, if that, like, is, a, especially, with, Roll-Ups and, app, chains, and, all, this, new, stuff coming, out, I, don't, know, if, that, I, don't know, if, users, are, going, to, be, willing, to

pay, hundreds, of, dollars, again, for transactions, uh, so, and, then, we, kind, of see, this, you, know, that's, why, a, lot, of stuff, markets, have, moved, to, other, chains you, know, nfts, are, very, popular, on, you know, Solana, for, example, right, or, games have, moved, off, of, like, completely, move off, of, ethereum, main, chain, altogether um, so, yeah, the, third, the, third, source, of Revenue, is, the, Mev, capture, right, and, so osmosis, we, actually, started, with, uh, also before, we, were, building, a, DEX, we actually, were, just, like, building, like Mev, mitigation, strategies, and, so, we, were working, on, something, called, threshold decryption um, which, is, a, way, of, encrypting, the mempool, entirely, and, so, that, way, and only, decrypting, and, executing, after blocks, have, been, finalized, and, committed

and, so, you, know, the, model, that, we followed, at, osmosis, is, mitigate, bad, Mev internalize, good, Mev, so, how, where, do, we draw, this, distinction that, Mev, is, the, type, of, Mev, when, you, are doing, actions, based, off, of, other people's, transactions, right, because, the mempool, is, public, you, can, read, others transactions, and, you, could, you, know sandwich, them, you, could, you, know generalize, front, run, them, copy, their strategies, you, can, do, all, this, stuff which, is, like, not, cool, fundamentally that's, a, privacy, breach, and, like, it, is, a bug, that, the, mempools, are, not, encrypted right, now, so, that's, why, we, focus, on building, threshold, decryption, so, that the, mempools, are, encrypted, but, now

there's, still, some, types, of, Mev, that remain, right, and, I, call, these, like, I don't, know, if, good, Mev, is, the, right, word but, they're, not, that, it's, not, extractive me, you're, not, extracting, it, from, anyone else, so, examples, would, be, arbing, prices on, osmosis, relative, to, centralized exchanges, or, even, arbing, prices, within osmosis, pools, you, know, there, are circular, routes, through, pools, are, being those, together or, there's, um there's, you, know, the, Mars protocol, is, launching, a, lending, platform on, osmosis, quite, soon, so, you, know triggering, liquidations, is, another, sort of, you, know, good, Mev, and, all, of, these are, good, things, you, know, you, want, your pools, to, be, armed, you, want, liquidations to, be, happening, fast, but, there, is, value in, being, the, person, to, do, that, right, and so, how, do, we, internalize, good, Mev, and

bring, that, s, protocol, of, Revenue, uh we're, working, very, closely, with, a, team called, skip, who's, helping, us, you, know instead, of, letting, this, stuff, be, like you, know, I, call, them, like, I, call, you know, then, them, be, run, by, these, off-chain validator, cartels, right, you, know, I, would say, like, flashbots, not, being, part, of, the core, protocol, it, makes, it, so, like, you know, it's, sort, of, it, ends, up, having, to be, a, little, bit, profit, maximizing, when if, the, core, the, beauty, of, app, change, is because, your, chain, hat, understands, the semantics, of, the, application, built, on top, of, it, it, can, be, opinionated, about how, it, orders, transactions, or, and, it, can do, things, to, actually, promote, social good, right, it, could, be, like, you, know, we

are, going, to, make, sure, uh, you, know, you can't, just, rug, liquidity, we're, going, to make, sure, all, trades, happen, first, before liquidity, removals, happen, and, like, so that, way, you, know, liquidity, can't, get drugged, from, under, you, or, or, we, can, like detect, sandwiches, and, like, you, know, be like, oh, this, is, an, invalid, transaction order, we're, going, to, move, these transactions, around, so, it's, not, a sandwich, anymore um, and, like, you, can, do, things, like, that right, to, help, continue, to, mitigate, that bad, mov, and, then, on, the, good, Mev, you know, we, can, run, automatic, on-chain, art Bots, where, like, you, know, we, calculate our, ARB, cycles, and, we, run, an, on-chain arbor, that, happens, at, the, end, of, every block, and, captures, that, ARB, Revenue, it and, gives, it, to, osmo, stickers, or, we could, uh, what, we're, going, to, do, is, have

a, top, of, the, block, auction, but, in, the protocol, itself, so, instead, of, relying, an off-chain, system, the, in, protocol, you, can bid, to, say, hey, I, want, to, be, the, first transaction, in, the, block, and, that, way way, you, can, be, the, one, to, do, all, the arbs, and, you, know, uh, liquidations, and stuff, and, doing, it, in, protocol, is important, because, then, the, protocol, can decide, how, the, revenue, gets, shared, right in, if, you, do, it, off, chain, you, know, the revenue, goes, to, like, only, the, validators and, you, know, maybe, we, have, to, rely, on them, altruistically, like, you, know, maybe we'll, see, a, market, where, validators, have to, end, up, start, sharing, all, their revenue, with, with, their, delegators, right but, in, if, you, do, it, in, protocol, we, can

say, oh, we, want, some, of, this, Mev, Revenue to, go, to, all, stakers, we, want, some, of, it to, go, to, the, community, pool, we, want, to give, some, of, it, as, a, kickback, to, users like, we, can, like, choose, what, to, do, with that, Mev, Revenue, which, is, I, think, a, very important, property yeah, I, think, that's, definitely, the strength, of, the, the, app, chain, model um, you, know, as, we, move, kind, of, this conversation, to, from, from, comparisons comparisons, to, ethereum, and, from, the cosmos, thesis, uh, to, the, world, of, uh, the new, atom, 2.0, economics, that, were released um, I, haven't, gone, through, that, paper there, are, a, few, things, that, that, stuck out, to, me, and, I'm, going, to, try, my attempt, at, summarizing, but, you, guys, uh go, in, there, and, and, let, me, know, what, the

what, the, main, thrust, of, these, changes are, it, seems, like, before, atoms, from, an economic, perspective, the, token, economics for, an, investor, anyways, weren't, really great, kind, of, sucked, at, least, did, not accrue, monetary, premium, and, Zaki, you're going, thumbs, down, can, you, talk, about like, why, did, why, did, it, thumbs, down, in agreement, right, yes, thumbs, down, thumbs down, in, agreement, yeah, I, know, right, so why, did, they, suck, before, I, mean, like this, was, a, big, part, of, our, presentation at, Cosmo, verse, my, presentation specifically, you, know, it, was, like, look um you, can, think, of, what, Adam, was, foremost in, the, first, iteration, was, a, prototype of, a, proof, of, State, chain, right, we, kind

of, you, know, we, would, say, that, from, our point, of, view, that, Pro, our, argument, is that, before, the, cosmos, have, launched there, was, no, live, proof, of, stake, chain that, had, really, taken, proof, of, stake economically, seriously, and, done, it, in like, a, rigorous, way, from, like, the computer, science, level, all, the, way, to the, economics, level, we, I, believe, that the, cosmosite, was, the, first, Gene, to, do this um so, but, it, was, a, prototype, of, what, does proof, of, stake, look, like, how, can, it, be done, in, a, rigorous, way, like, all, of, these things um, but, it, was, only, a, prototype, and, like the, best, way, I, would, describe, it, is, also is, we, have, an, app, chain, thesis, what, the hell, is, the, app, of, the, cosmos, Hub, uh, it doesn't, appear, to, have, an, app

so, we, were, kind, of, the, uh, uh, you, know and, so, you, know, the, uh, you, know, both Ethan, and, I, talked, about, this, so, this was, been, a, big, theme, of, you, know, the last, week, of, our, lives, and, like, the preceding, like, nine, months, of, pulling all, these, ideas, together um, has, been, about, you, know, okay, we, would like, to, go, out, and, we, would, like, to, say one, we, want, to, make, Adam, a, better ecosystem, asset, but, part, of, that, but, it inherent, to, that, idea, is, we, must, create an, app, for, the, cosmos, Hub, why, don't, I let, you, kind, of, take, your, other, do, other takeaways, for, the, paper, because, I'm curious, in, real, time, getting, like, what you, what, you, took, away, from, it um, and, then, uh, but, I, can, talk, a, little

bit, about, but, yes, so, like, issuance, is changing, we, are, moving, towards, you, know not, this, exponential, inflation, we, think that, helps, Define, the, ecosystem, we, think it, makes, Adam, closer, to, a, monetary, a monetary, asset, like, all, of, those, things and, we, think, those, things, are, good, okay first, leg, of, the, story, let's, camp, on that, because, as, a, as, a, monetary maximalist, you'll, note, that, the, first thing, I, noticed, in, this, paper, was, um, hey the, monetary, policy, has, changed, how, this is, interesting, and, I, you, know, I, I, almost wondered, in, the, back, of, my, mind, if, it's like, if, the, ethereum, community, kind, of capitulated, and, being, like, ah, Cosmos these, app, chain, guys, were, right, they were, right, all, along, right, we're, gonna do, more, app, chains, in, ethereum, I, almost

saw, maybe, some, of, recognition, from, the cosmos, community, that, huh, this, this ultrasound, money, thing, hmm, maybe, we, want our, atom, token, to, actually, exhibit, some characteristics, of, of, money, and, have, a, a better, issuance, policy, that's, kind, of what, I, saw, but, maybe, that's, my, bias reading, of, the, thing, and, so, what, I, saw is, previously, I, think um, issuance, for, atom, token, holders, was that, between, like, seven, and, twenty percent, per, year, that, was, the, rate, of issuance, issuance, in, the, market, it's adaptive, to, the, amount, that's, staked, so we, target, a, stake, rate, of, 67, percent um uh, because, of, you, know, we, want, to keep, the, make, it, very, expensive, to

attack, to, like, have, for, there, to, be enough, liquid, atom, to, accumulate, to actually, attack, the, network, right, um, uh and, you, know, so, you, know, we, and, and, so basically, you, know, what, pulls, atoms, away from, being, there, are, like, what's, on centralized, exchanges, that, centralized exchanges, themselves, are, not, staking um, and, then, all, the, atoms, that, are, out there, uh, in, LP, pools, all, of, that, stuff um, uh, you, know, that, pushes, the, staking rate, down, the, uh, uh, inflation, rate, goes up, to, compensate, so um, right, so, like, since, osmo, so, we, had dropped, to, about, seven, percent, inflation okay um, uh, uh, new, atom, issuance, and, then since, kind, of, Osmosis, launch, and, the, IBC

ecosystem, we've, been, averaging, about nine-ish, percent, in, this, PID, Loop um, but, and, that, has, translated, into, a staking, apy, for, atoms, of, about, you, know 19, 20, gotcha, and, now, what, are, the changes, there, seem, to, be, almost, two phases, of, these, changes, like, a transition, phase, and, then, almost, a steady, state, and, the, first, phase issuance, actually, increases, I, believe but, then, in, the, second, phase, it, kind, of like, tapers, off, and, it's, going, to decrease, to, like, one, percent yeah, there's, there's, a, bunch, of complicated, moving, pieces, in, the issuance, thing, a, big, part, of, the framework, around, issuance, though, is, that Cosmos, is, taking, a, very, different approach, to, liquid, staking, than, let's say, ethereum, has, where, I, would, say

ethereum, fought, tooth, and, nail, to, make it, as, hard, as, possible, for, like, liquid staking, to, emerge, and, it, emerged, anyways because, the, economics, are, so, compelling um, the, cosmos, ecosystem, has, been, taking a, approach, of, hey, we, want, to, make, sure that, there, are, just, a, large, variety, of liquid, staking, providers, and, so, that there's, competition, and, so, you, don't have, a, situation, where, a, Lido, like entity, becomes, like, super, dominant, but we, think, on, the, whole, like, the, good staking, staking, derivative, assets, are actually, really, important, to, the security, budget, of, the, system um, so, and, the, the, logic, there, is, it allows, people, to, stack, their, yield, so rather, than, saying, Adam, holders, like

we're, gonna, try, and, like, print, so, many atoms, that, we, compensate, you, for, the opportunity, cost, of, everything, else, you could, do, with, Adam, we're, saying, liquid stake, your, atom, take, your, liquid, state data, go, do, all, the, other, things, that, you could, do, in, D5, go, use, the, app, ecosystem with, your, liquid, state, data, and, have, it still, contribute, to, the, security, budget of, the, cosmos, so, that, that'll, so, the first, thesis, is, so, there's, like um, probably, about, like, six, liquid staking, protocols, launching, or, in, the midst, of, launching, on, top, of, in, the cosmos, ecosystem, right, now um so, there's, like, there's, a, lot, of activity, around, that, so, we're, sort, of projecting, in, the, future, saying, hey, we think, this, over, the, next, three, years, we expect, these, protocols, will, succeed, uh

my, team, at, occlusion um, has, been, working, has, been, uh, has, been working, really, like, one, of, our, big contributions, of, the, occlusion, team, uh to, the, uh, to, the, paper, has, been, that, we spent, the, last, like, 18, months, making changes, to, the, like, default, Cosmo staking, module, to, improve, the, ux, of liquid, staking, so, all, of, that, stuff, so that's, happening, so, staking, yield, starts to, fall uh, uh, starts, to, fall, on, like, a, yearly basis, in, this now, the, issuance, goes, up, but, that, is issuance, to, the, community, treasury, it, is it, is, because, you, know, a, lot, of, chains have, had, this, idea, of, having, like, the

on-chain, Dao, being, able, to, have, funds and, fund, something, we, started, the, cosmos Hub, out, with, a, very, small, amount, uh where, there's, only, about, uh, half, a percent, of, of, new, issuance, goes, into, the and, so, like, we, have, about, you, know, 10 million, dollars, I, think, of, token, of value, in, our, in, our, uh, uh, community, pool whereas, you, know, some, other, l1s, have will, have, like, a, third, of, their, market cap um, in, in, the, community, pool um, to, like, fund, new, things, and, one, of the, things, that, we're, saying, is, in, this new, app, vision to, execute, on, that, app, Vision, you, need working, capital, like, we're, gonna, have, to go, and, do, business, development, we're

going, to, have, to, onboard, chains, onto, uh this, interchange, security, thing, like there's, going, to be, a, lot, of, stuff, that needs, to, be, done, that, wasn't, really conceived, of, in, the, original, Cosmos level, but, like, you, know, if, you, hold atoms, you're, going, to, be, a, voter, on, what those, funds, are, being, so, like, the, extent to, which, is, dilutive, I, think, is, a, little overplayed, because, and, then, we're, saying after, this, three-year, period there's, not, going, to, be, any, more, new funding, going, into, the, community, pool there's, not, into, the, on-chain, treasury um there's, uh, and, then, we're, gonna, drop the, staking, yield, basically, to, about, one percent that, makes, sense, okay, so, that's, the economic, change, for, atoms, and, lower staking, yield, is, kind, of, or, like, lower issuance, is, the, eventual, outcome, that'll

take, some, years, to, play, out, and, you, also mentioned, liquid, staking, which, I, noticed in, the, paper, making, that, kind, of, a First-Class, citizen, I, would, say, in, the cosmos, ecosystem, and, the, way, it's, liquid sticky, is, probably, it's, not, a first-class, citizen, in, ethereum, it's just, it's, kind, of, an, app, that, a, third party, creates um, and, then, I, also, noticed, like, you're you're, posing, the, questions, Aki, of, like what, is, the, app, of, the, cosmos, Hub, itself and, is, the, app, of, the, cosmos, Hub, not interchange, security, isn't, it, like, isn't that, the, thing, I, said, so, talk, talk, about this, and, this, I, think, uh, is, is, sort, of the, idea, that, um, you, can, call, on, atom validators, Cosmos, Hub, validators, to, also secure, your, app, chain, if, you, want, is

this, the, case, is, this, what, interchange security, means, yeah, so, all, contrast, I don't, we, talk, about, two, terms, one, is mesh, security, the, other, was, an interchange, security, okay technical, Primitives, are, very, similar are, basically, this, almost, identical between, them, they're, about, you, know translating, staking, information, from, and slashing, information, from, one, chain, to another, chain, so, like, if, you, fault, on one, chain, you, get, slashed, on, another chain um, what's, called, interchange, security but, like, your, uh, the, version, in, which you, replicate, The, Hub, validator, set um, okay, so, when, we, started, with, this interchange, security, thing, I, was, like the, biggest, skeptic, that, we, would, find anyone, who, cared, about, it, I, was, like

anyone, who's, really, serious, about building, an, app, will, like, want, to, be, in their, own, Sovereign, chain, why, would anybody, else, want, to, do, this, like, and then, we, found, we, found, like, an, enormous amount, of, uh, of, uh, customer, demand, for for, interchange, security, that, like, uh, or like, we, call, them, consumer, chains, um, so chains, that, consume, security, from, The Hub, we, found, so, much, demand, for, and, I'm like, like, it, was, like, a, shock, to, me, but I've, understood, now, in, in, in, the, in, in the, past, like, what, are, the, what, are, the things, that, interchange, security, is offering, that, people, get, uh, that, is, like appealing, to, people one, category, of, thing, is, there, are, very

high, value, users, like, usdc, for, instance um who, want, to, be, able, to, like, launch, be strongly, affiliated, with, the, developer Community, core, the, exchanges, the custodians, the, the, community, around, Adam um, and, like, do, not, want, to, think, about tokenomics, they, just, like, don't, want, to like, that's, like, just, not, something, that they, would, like, really, at, all, want, to, do um, and, so, that's, like, one, really, strong use, case, which, is, like, really, powerful use, cases, that, accrue, value, to, the, whole ecosystem, and, crew, value, to, the, cosmos Hub um, but, like, don't, want, to, think, about their, own, tokenomics, at, all, other, things are, hey, we, are, building, something, that's

like, actually, very, security, sensitive like, liquid, staking, where, if, like, you have, a, major, liquid, staking, provider, and it, gets, taken, over, it, like, cat, there's like, a, cascading, effect, on, the, security of, every, other, chain, that, is, per, is, is like, running, on, top, of, their, liquid staking, protocol, so, those, chains, have also, wanted, to, affiliate, uh, more, closely with, the, cosmos, Hub um, and, then, there's, the, sense, of, hey, I want, to, be, able, to, build, like, and, really Target, just, like, the, network, effects around, Adam, the, wide, holder, base, all, of that, stuff, these, are, three, team, uh themes, that, we, see, popping, up, over, and over, again, and, frankly, this, has, give, it this, like, again, has, finally, given, us, a sense, of, what, is, the, purpose, of, the

cosmos, Hub, which, is, to, enable, these things, to, succeed, that, is, cool um I, I, guess, another, thing, I, I, noticed was, um some, something, that, you, guys, are doing, with, Mev, on, uh, can, I, add, one, more thing, about, the, Hub, yeah, yeah, go, ahead relates, in, the, mesh, security, Vision, so um I, taught, a, class, on, Switzerland, in, uh, at UC, Berkeley, it's, my, favorite, country, a lot, of, class, on, Switzerland, on, the subject, of, Switzerland, yeah, yeah, eight lecturers, talked, about, history, politics economics, like, everything, it's, all, on, my website, very, neutral, country, yes, so, you know, how, did, Switzerland, become, it's, one of, the, richest, countries, in, the, world right, uh, and, there's, many, things, that

that, went, into, that, right, I, think, the role, of, its, credible, neutrality, that, is played, throughout, history, was, very important, one, thing, that, people, maybe don't, realize, is, that, uh, Switzerland you, know, it's, CR, it's, neutral, but, it actually, had, one, of, the best, militaries in, the, world, and, even, till, today, it actually, is, one, of, the best, militaries in, the, world, but, from, like, you, know, the period, of, like, 1200, until, like, Napoleon basically, they, were, like Europe's, mercenaries, they, were, the, best most, like, respected, military, in, all, of Europe, but, because, they, were, neutral they, acted, as, mercenaries, and, went, and like, defended, whoever, would, pay, for, them and, I, see, the, role, of, the, cosmos, Hub, to be, this, credit, incredibly, neutral, system

that, is, a, we, will, you, pay, it, for security, and, you, get, this, like, amazing Economic, Security, from, it, so, that's where, the, military, for, hire military, For, Hire, it's, like, you, know, you don't, want, to, have, to, come, up, with, your own, military, well, you, know, uh, you, can have, you, you, can, you, can, pay, the, cost, of top, and, you'll, and, that, that's, the, role I, feel, that, it, plays, in, this, mesh security, vision so, the, idea, here, is, that, app, chains maybe, at, Genesis, don't, do, this, because they're, at, Genesis, but, then, their product, Market, fit, happens, their, utility is, proven, out, their, value, increases, and then, they, can, start, to, be, like, hey, you know, what, we, can, afford, security, uh, and so, then, they, start, to, tap, into, this, like

credibly, neutral, Army, uh, which, thing, can secure, them other, direction well, I, will, I'll, just, say, to, one, one, of the, things, that, uh, is, like, really, cool and, I, think, unique, about, our, vision, of shared, security, is, we, have, specced, out the, whole, system, to, the, extent, where, you can, seamlessly, like, just, through, like the, standard, kind, of, upgrading application, upgrading, process, that, we use, in, Cosmos, both, join, uh, uh, uh interchange, security um, without, disrupting, your, IBC connections, or, anything, or, leave interchange, security, so, you, know communities, are, still, giving, the, uh given, the, uh, it's, not, like, they, have like, if, they, if, they, like, find, the, Hub

excessively, value, extractive, for, the security, that, it, provides um, it's, very, it'll, be, very, possible, to leave, it'll, be, possible, to, go, join someone, else's, shared, security environment, too um, or, like, be, your, own, software, app chain um, and, so, like, again, this, is, like, a long-term, commitment, we're, creating Market, forces, and, Cosmos, that, ensure that, this, is, a, pluralist, environment, and that, like, we, are, not, creating, any, sort of, artificial, rent, seeking, like, the, Hub has, to, really, provide, its, value otherwise um, we'll, provide, value, otherwise, no, one will, do, this um, because, the, Mev, has, been, like, Mev censorship, all, of, these, things

hugely, relevant, to, the, ethereum community, so, so, we've, we've, heard, a little, bit, about, what, does, Mev, look, like in, the, pure, app, chain, thesis um but, one, of, the, things, that, we, you know, I've, talked, a, lot, about, with, the Mev, you, know, flashbots, teams, we, also have, some, very, good, Meb, teams, inside, of of, Cosmos, uh, Skip, and, Mecca, Tech, uh, who are, you, know, doing, also, like, building you, know, businesses, around, Mev, in, the cosmos um, and, one, of, the, things, that, we've, been talking, about um, uh, most um one, of, the, things, that, like, is, built into, it, is, again, we, don't, think transaction, fees, will, ever, be, high, like

we, don't, think, transaction, fees, will, be a, meaningful, amount, of, Revenue but, you, know, in, a, world, where, there's like, atom, usdc, other, assets, that, are major, Fiat, uh, or, on-ramps, between, Cosmos uh, into, the, cosmos, ecosystem, at, least one, hop, of, every, economic, sort, of, loop or, economic, activity, will, frequently start, within, what, they, call, it, the, atom economic, zone, The, Interchange, secured area, of, Adam, will, probably, be, a, place where, a, lot, of, economic, activity originates and, the, ability, to, sort, of, Arbitrage that, so, statistical, Arbitrage, without not, sandwiching, or, anything, but, just

knowing, hey, someone, is, minted, a, whole bunch, of, usdc, and, we, see, them, issuing, an IBC, packet, that, kind, of, information, is likely, to, be, valuable, that, block, space is, likely, to, be, valuable, so, one, of, the things, that, we're, proposing, in, the, in the, in, the, hub, 2.0, white, paper, is, that like, one, of, the, again, applications, on the, Hub, is, this, box-based, Market, that any, chain, in, the, ecosystem, whether, it's interchange, secured, or, not, can, opt, into participating, with, and, say, we're actually, going, to, package, a, product, that is, like, a, better, product, than, like, what Skip, and, mechatech, could, build, right, now which, is guaranteed uh, the, guaranteed, ability, to, like, have, a transaction, at, the, top, of, the, block

across, many, blocks, over, some, contiguous period, of, time, and, that, the, Hub, is, a natural, place, to, like, hold, this, auction and, execute, box so, right, now, Cosmos, the, atom, token, is coming, in, at, 23, on, coin, gecko, the, total coin, market, cap, and, it's, kind, of, behind some, tokens, that, I, never, really, would expect, it, to, be, behind, I'm, still, behind Litecoin, uh, a, lot, of, tokens, are, sadly behind, Ripple, uh, light, Litecoin, is, the one, that, comes, to, mind, uh, it's, that's right, before, it, at, 22., uh, it, doesn't make, any, sense, to, me, because, it's Litecoin, uh, all, it's, got, is, Lindy, uh, do you, guys, Envision, that, uh, Adam, actually enters, the, top, 10, crypto, Assets, in, the future, as, some, given, amount, of, time

um if, that, doesn't, happen, Adam, I, will, not be, hip, satisfied, like, I, woke, up considered, that, like, the, work, that, I've been, doing, will, not, have, been, a, success like, there, is, a, like, I, like, I, believe that, this, that, this, this work, that, went into, atom, 2.0, has, created, a, top, 10 aspect, like, when, executed, creates, a, top 10, asset um, and, if, the, market, doesn't, agree, with me, uh, you, know, but, and, like, there's, as, a as, a, entrepreneur, it's, like, you, go, out you, bring, your, best, ideas, to, the, market the, market, punches, you, in, the, face um, and, so, we'll, see um, but, uh, yeah, that's, what, we're, trying that, that, is, I, I, would, say, that, is, up explicitly, my, goal, this, atom, 2.0, Sunny

any, thoughts um, yeah, I, mean, I'll, I'll, admit, I'm, not as, focused, on, the, atom, side, of, things, I believe, you, know, I, focus, on, Cosmos, level at, the, vision, and, then, you, know, I'm, very focused, I'm, very, focused, on, the, cosmos vision, and, then, very, focused, on, the osmosis, chain um we're, trying, to, build, osmosis, we're trying, to, build, the, decentralized version, of, binance, Finance, is, a, top, 10 asset, and, gospel, will, be, one, day, too uh, Zaki, the, ethereum, ecosystem, and Community, like, largely, on, on, the, page, of like, yeah, we're, gonna, flip, Bitcoin, one day, uh, do, you, think, Cosmos, is, is, there, a part, of, Cosmos, that's, like, Adam, is, going to, flip, eath, one, day um

like, okay, so, I'll, I'll, I'll, just, give you, where, I, feel, like, I, can, always, tell you, my, feelings, I, can't, I, have, become really, probably, more, despondent, about bitcoin's, long-term, future, than, I, ever have, been um, I, own, more, East, today, than, I've, ever owned, in, the, past, I, own, much, more, Adam but, I, own, more, Ethan, I've, ever, owned before, I, moan, more, eats, than, Bitcoin um, uh, I, think, ethereum, is, doing, a, great job, uh, and, like, deserves, is, like, the better, representative, of, the cryptocurrency, community, the, values, that I, believe, in, and, I, feel, more, aligned with, ethereum, than, in, the, past um, and, so, I'm, not, I, I, don't, I'm, not

building, with, this, with, like, oh, I, have to, flip, Eve, I, wanna, I, need, to, flip, all of, the, that, is, between, me there's, a, lot, of, it, guys, this, has, been, a lot, of, fun, I, really, feel, like, listeners at, the, end, of, this, episode, will understand, the, cosmos, ecosystem, so, much more, including, how, it's, going, to, evolve in, the, future, and, what's, so, interesting to, me, is, these, two, communities, ethereum and, Cosmos, is, like, you, see, ethereum veering, towards, Cosmos, right, getting more, into, app, change, and, this, sort, of thing, you, also, see, in, places, Cosmos veering, more, towards, uh, ethereum, at least, with, atoms, and, kind, of, monetary policy, improvements, and, you, know, it's, uh

interesting, to, see, these, two, communities one, thing, I've, respected, out, of, both, is uh, they, are, both, the, community, of Builders, like, you, guys, are, just, Cosmos is, building, a, lot, and, it's, hard, to, be bearish, on, Builder, activity, when, you, get 1500, people, at, a, conference, in, a, bear market, and, you, know, they're, there because, they, think, they're, building something, cool, uh, that, is, special, and that, is, certainly, something, to, watch, so uh, we're, definitely, watching, it, at bankless, I, guess, last, question, for, you both, so, let's, fast, forward, you, know, five years, into, the, future, ten, years, into, the future where, do, you, think, Cosmos, ends, up, what does, crypto, look, like, and, what, does, the cosmos, ecosystem, look, like, maybe, five years, into, the, future, or, ten, years, from

the, future, or, just, any, point, in, time where, you, feel, like, the, vision, is fulfilled, Zaki, over, to, you um in, so okay, so, I, mean, my, my, expectation, is, is that, by, the, time, the, vision, is, fulfilled most, people, who, use, cryptocurrency, based technologies, will, kind, of, not, really know, whether, or, not, they're, using, a cosmos, thing, an, ethereum, thing, and, a Solana, thing and, hopefully, what, I, want, is, them, just to, abuse, we, use, a, thing, where, they're where, they, are, not, being, exploited, where there's, not, being, front-rated, where they're, par, where, where, digital, Market okay, so, like, this, this, comes, down, to, the question, I, think, which, you, know, uh, I

have, a, good, way, of, articulating, now digital, markets, in, the, future, will, be all, markets, and, I'm, building, for, a future, in, which, digital, markets, are, open source, public, goods, that's, like, flat, out what, I've, tried, to, accomplish, I, don't really, care, about, anything, else, I, just view, the, tools, we've, built, as, cosmos, as an, essential, part, of, getting, there, I also, think, ethereum, largely, shares, this Vision um, and, so, feel, very, aligned, with ethereum, but, like, so, if, we're, successful we, will, have, open, source, digital, markets that, provide, economic, coordination, for the, entire, human, race um, and, it, like, works, it's, you, know, and no, one, is, exploiting, or, extracting, Red Sea, because, you, can't um, and, that, is, the, world, that, like, is

that, is, the, Utopia, open, source, digital markets, that, sakis, Utopia, what's, yours Sonny, mine, is for, a, long, time, you, know, like, I mentioned, I've, always, I, Really, Love Organic, hayekian, systems, and, uh, part, of that, I, I, think, that, like, build rebuilding, uh, the, infrastructures, of society, away, from, these, like, very top-down, organized, systems, to, like bottom-up, localized, look, yeah, localized systems, where, you, know, people, make bilateral, treaties, multilateral, treaties build, communities, and, organize, you, know it's, it, you, know, it's, meshes, all, the, way up, right, and, I, I, really, believe, in, ideas like, uh, web, of, trust, based, systems um, you, know, I, started, working, on, one, of

the, reasons, I, started, working, on, Cosmos was, I, just, thought, that, you, know, I really, wanted, to, work, on, proof, of, stake and, I, you, know, I, was, working, on, that, you know, I, saw, that, I, thought, the, classes team, was, the, most, like, uh, you, know, most farthest, Along, on, proof, of, State actually, and, so, and, I, yeah, they, were, uh and, so, now, that, like, you, know, as, of, last month, or, two, weeks, ago, over, 50, of, market cap, is, running, on, proof, of, stake, I'm like, that's, awesome, but, now, what's, like the, next, thing, I, think, there's, like, I think, there's, things, we, can, do, even better, than, proof, of, stake, I, I, really believe, there's, like, a, world, where, we can, build, like, a, web, of, trust, based consensus, protocol, that, will, actually, be even, more, decentralized, than, proof, of stake

um, and, I, think, there's, like, a, lot, of like, I, don't, know, I, just, want, to, keep tearing, down, like, centralized, or, even you, know high, levels, of, communication, required systems, and, build, more, organic, mesh systems so, at, bankless, we, use, the, metaphor, of exploring, the, frontier, quite, frequently and, the, cosmos, name, actually, is, very conducive, to, this, so, say, a, listener, is listened, to, this, and, they're, they're, on board, and, they, want, to, go, explore, the cosmos, uh, in, ethereum, we, have, like metamask, you, gotta, have, metamask, uh what's, the, toolkit, for, people, that, need that, what's, the, toolkit, that, they, need to, be, equipped, with, to, go, explore, the Cosmos, first, what's, like, the, metamask, of Cosmos, or, just, like, what, are, the, tools

that, listeners, should, probably, start with, in, order, to, go, explore, Cosmos um, you, should, go, get, a, Kepler, wallet which, is, actually, built, by, our, team, uh but, you, you, know, go, on, a, centralized exchange, buy, Adam, which, is, the, you, know entry, point, into, Cosmos, today, you, IBC, it to, osmosis do, a, swap, for, a, token, called, Stars, you IVC, it, to, stargaze, and, go, buy, your, first bad, kids, nft, that's, your, that's, you, know that's, your, onboarding, path, that's, your to-do, list, cool, yeah, and, like I, think, if, you, just, look, at, that, okay you've, got, like, an, nft, app, an, onboarding place

a, decks, and, just, use, that, experience, and say, hey, is, this, how, different, does, this feel, from, ethereum, but, then, go, look, at how, much, you, spent, on, gas and, we're, getting, that, we're, getting, it better, right, now, each, of, those, steps requires, a, click, and, you, know at, least, on, osmosis, our, view, is, that every, click, loses, half, of, our, users, and so, we're, working, on, a, lot, of, the, tooling to, like, make, that, entire, process, feel like, one, click, guys, what, what, we'll, do is, uh, after, the, show, before, this, is actually, published, so, by, the, time, you're listening, to, this, bankless, listener, we will, have, a, little, tutorial, for everything, Sunny, just, said, that, we, can link, to, on, the, bank, list, uh, website, so uh, you, could, see, sunny, and, zaki's, ideas and, how, to, get, started, with, Cosmos, and

start, exploring, the, cosmos, guys, this, has been, a, lot, of, fun, thank, you, so, much, for joining, us thank, you action, items, for, you, bankless, listeners the, first, is, we'll, include, a, link, to, the cosmos, 2.0, atom, 2.0, white, paper, check that, out, also, referenced, was, the inevitability, of, unichain, an, article, by Dan, ellitzer, and, of, course, we'll, include a, link, that, I, just, mentioned, to, that tactic, on, how, to, get, started, with, Cosmos and, this, is, for, Zaki, and, and, sunny, if you, guys, are, willing, a, thing, that, we've been, doing, is, having, our, guests, actually read, out, our, outro, of, risks, and disclaimers, crypto, is, risky, you, can, lose what, you, put, in, but, we're, heading, west to, the, frontier, it, isn't, for, everyone but, you're, we're, glad, you're, with, us, on

the, Vanquis, Journey, thanks, a, lot, hey, we hope, you, enjoyed, the, video, if, you, did head, over, to, bankless, HQ, right, now, to develop, your, crypto, investing, skills, and learn, how, to, free, yourself, from, Banks and, gain, your, financial, Independence, we recommend, joining, our, daily, newsletter podcast, and, Community, as, a, bankless premium, subscriber, to, get, the, most, out of, your, bank, list, experience, you'll, get access, to, our, market, analysis, our, Alpha colleagues, and, exclusive, content, and even, the, bankless, token, for, airdrops Raffles, and, unlocks, if, you're, interested in, crypto, the, bankless, community, is where, you, want, to, be, click, the, link, in the, description, to, become, a, bankless premium, subscriber, today, also, don't forget, to, subscribe, to, the, channel, for in-depth, interviews, with, industry

leaders, ask, me, any, things, and, weekly Roll-Ups, where, we, summarize, the, week, in crypto, and, other, fantastic, content thanks, everyone, for, watching, and, being on, the, journey, as, we, build, out, the bankless, nation