0xResearch | Friday, June 13th

Transcript

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[Music] [Music] [Music] All right, guys. We are live. Welcome back to another episode or live stream of the ZeroX Research podcast. Today, we're joined by a friend of the pod,

friend of the Telegram group, David Hoffman from Banklist. Thanks for coming on, David. What's up, man? Thanks for yep, 100%. And we've got Mark Arjun from the research team. We're waiting on of course our trusty friend Bkacio uh you know he said hey Danny I need a couple minutes I'm I really wanted to mo you at the start of the stream so uh I'll show up a few minutes late with a couple of racks in hand and uh yeah that that was that. So um awesome. How are we feeling today guys? I guess something that uh I'm sure maybe we have maybe we don't have the deepest takes on. I don't know David you mentioned maybe you're a geopolitical expert but totally as I'm sure everyone on the timeline is now but uh obviously talk of the town that I

think we kind of need to mention before we go anywhere is this Israel Iran conflict um you know there was a little bit of a market reaction last night uh going into this morning so muted very muted reaction yeah I'm curious like do we have any broad thoughts there I mean for me personally I'm not I don't typically like make any investment decisions following missiles. Yeah. Yeah. Vibes for anyone. The nothing ever happens memes were going around as if uh like the something finally happened.

They're now the memes that something finally happened. So the nothing ever happened meme guy lost. But like if you look at the market prices, I think the nothing ever happened guy is winning. Uh like this we have dumped way harder for no reasons before like compared to this. So like I'm kind of in the camp of like the market is saying nothing happened. Yeah, I'm going to kind of agree with that. But even though it was still kind of a big move for Bitcoin in recent volatility, I'm I'm a little bit of ahead of you guys in the UK. So, the conflict happened at like 2:00 a.m. I woke up this morning and I saw Bitcoin at like 1:02 and I'm like, "What happened? It was pushing all-time highs." And I thought my first thought was, "Oh, who bombed who?" And then and then I was um disappointingly

unsurprised to see the conflict. But um I mean this always happens with Bitcoin. Like any major geopolitical event, Bitcoin pulls back unless it's a financial geopolitical event and then Bitcoin is like, "Yay." So, I mean like I'm kind of like unsurprised at this whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. And like well even I think all events cause Bitcoin to sell off. It just r it generally rallies pretty soon thereafter if it was like a financial related event like like you know people got to pay back debts, people getting liquidated so people are selling Bitcoin but then like the next day reality sets in and then whatever financial related event happens people like oh well this makes me more bullish Bitcoin. Yeah, I I

do feel like especially with the price action you in the short term you get a lot of the tweets from people who are like so it's not a hedge. It's not you know it's not a hedge against things like this and it's like sure maybe not in the absolute moment when uh perhaps people consider risk off and they just sell they just hit the button or the algos just hit the button when the newsfeed comes across the you know through the ticker or whatever. Um, but you know, the longer term question is always up in the air, but I do think it's funny that like that gets brought up immediately almost anytime like initial news of of something like this comes up.

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, the same thing happened with gold. If you look at gold, right, as the news went on, it had a pullback. It's recovered now, but I mean, like, are you going to use that same argument for it not being a hedge? I mean, it's circumstantial. Mhm. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. Um, I don't have any other strong takes here. I can't tell you whether Israel and Iran will resolve this conflict in any specific time frame or what that will look like. But, uh, another conflict that was on the timeline yesterday was around valuation of ETH. I guess it's been on the timeline for a while. It's been a hot topic of debate. Uh, how to value assets. I'm gonna pull up a relevant tweet. I think we got to talk

about it, especially we've got uh co-host of the show on, but uh RSA, I guess your your co-host uh David has been becoming something of like the evangelist for ETH within the community, it seems. Um well, he he always has been. Yeah. But maybe being uh very much more pointed about it recently, right? There's been a a strong push as of late. I think we can agree. Well, so he took three months off. So he took a sabbatical and then he came back kind of with like a fervor around like memeing ETH and like from the beginning of Bank list we've always understood like I think our fifth episode ever was about memes and the power of memes and

we created we created bank list like downstream of Anthony Pompiano and him like truly learning how to meme Bitcoin in a very compelling way and like Ryan I was watching Ryan learn from Anthony Pompiano and be like I'm going to do that same thing for ETH. Uh, and that's that's what we started doing is like we started like memeing ETH all the way back in 2019 2020. And so that's always carried with us. Uh, and so he went on a break, he went on a sbatical, he came back and be like, you know what, ETH needs even more of memes, bigger and better memes. And so like that's kind of like the background context that kind of like set Ryan up for this.

All right, I don't want to cut off, but before we get into the topic, let's pull in Kevin or maybe more people might know him as intern uh growth at Monad. How you doing today, Kevin? Doing great. Happy Friday. Uh wanted to pull you in before we get into this topic, but because I think it's relevant uh to you as well. we can all kind of share our thoughts here. But um getting into the topic of comps and the valuation of ETH as an asset. It's been uh pretty hot lately, pretty divisive, I think we'd say. Let's pull up the tweet from RSA. Um basically, he shared this tweet the other day. I'm going to crop out the visual and just show the text, but um saying let me show you the real comps for storev value reserve assets

like ETH mentions gold at 85 trillion or sorry oil at 85 trillion, gold at 22 trillion, bonds at 141 trillion, GDP at 106 trillion, M2 at 93 trillion. Take the average ETH 89 trillion. Simple math. Uh ETH is going to 740K. Uh that's the long-term potential. Uh, I do think like David, I think you set this up right in your framing here. Like certainly there's some intentional memeing here. Um, which I, you know, personally I found GDP hilarious in this context, but I'm just curious like what's what's everyone's raw takeaway here. What are our thoughts? Let me go last on this one.

Yeah, I'll give it a I I saw this on um Twitter. I saw first via like the merch screen cap like this is my quant which was an awesome take on it. Um I thought it was a great post like I it's obviously playing on kind of like the Tik Tok XRP thing which was like well Swift does four quadrillion and so if XRP is Swift then it's worth four quadrillion. It's just like I think it's general crypto Twitter attention capture. Um, all good jokes have like a kernel of truth in it, right? And I think the the kernel in this case is ETH has so much potential and like price has not been great this cycle and it's

underperforming what people think. Um, and just so just like kind of forcing people to think bigger, but also like playing into the meme of it. I thought it was a great tweet. I don't know. I I am a ship poster respector, so I thought I thought it was good. Um, it obviously captured a lot of attention. Um, yeah. I don't know. ETH people forget about the the vision of what Ethereum is supposed to be in its end state and I think it this kind of like forces it into the conversation. Yeah, I'm going to kind of I'm going to kind of agree there. I remember listening to one of the Bankless podcast a few weeks ago when Ryan came back from a sabbatical and he was just like we need more maxis in Ethereum and he's also going to be you know pushing out

his voice there a little bit more and I think I mean this tweet is like encapsulates that pretty well. Um, you know, I I do fall into the camp of ETH is money. I don't think it's good money, but I do think it is money. Um, it it it checks those boxes, you know. Um, I'm from the Caribbean. I have I have a local currency, the Trindad dollar. I I don't think it's good money, but it is money, right? So, you know, you know, these things can be debated, but you know, I think, you know, with that meme, the good news is after this um this Israel strike, oil is up. So, ET's average time has gone up with it as well. So, that's positive.

Yeah, I think you guys are I think you guys are like totally understanding where what Ryan's strategy here is. Like he's he's not just like naively tweeting out some $750,000 per ETH token. Like I can't really say to what degree of confidence Ryan actually thinks that that is the real number for ETH. $750,000 per ETH seems a little absurd, but like the point is to be absurdist about it. Uh, and uh, and it'll probably also say like, haha, checkmate. Everyone is talking about this. Uh, and so like win point for Ryan on this one. I don't really I'm not totally convinced that everyone talking about it is like unequivocally good because it does

um, like making something so absurdist like yeah, everyone's talking about it. We are like memeing ETH to be comped to like a whole entire nation state economy. we are memeing ETH to be comped to oil. Uh and it's like elevating ETH to be in that conversation and and in that side it's good but also on on the other side of things like you are branding yourself as like somebody who's doing absurd things at the same time. Uh and and so like it's also hard to take it seriously and I I don't know how to like weigh these things like for some people it's very negative but nonetheless they are forced to talk about ETH being comped to the United States economy which is like has always been the maximum potential for ETH like

it is a unlike Bitcoin which is just digital gold on the internet Ethereum is an economy it and it has exposure to its own economy just like all smart contract platforms and so that's been the narrative that we've always tried to like meme into reality at Bankless and like Ryan is just doing this. Yeah. But like I'm a little bit more moderate than he is these days where I'm like, "Yeah, I see the I see the costs of this memey as well." Uh because it like it turn it does turn a lot of people off. It does turn like the mo like the John Charbanos types that type of like thoroughly rigorous analysts. It does it does like make them look at this and be like that doesn't make any sense. This person is absurd. Uh, and so like I'm kind of I'm kind of mixed about it. Yeah. But let's

look at the conversion conversion it, right? Like people like John OB, they're going to use REV. They're going to use DCF models. Like this isn't swaying them. This is going to sway a whole people who weren't investing in ETH or didn't want to invest in ETH. This isn't changing their mind necessarily. It's about, you know, reaching the people who want, you know, you want to competitive money. It's reaching those kind of people. But I mean like I talk to my normie um my my normie crypto friends you know when I ask them where where's the rails going to be on I I get XRP everybody wants to invest in XRP where where's where the fundamentals there where's the reality there and I don't think it matters but but now XRP's price is so high they're they're acquiring you know they're acquiring market makers they're look they were in talks to

acquire a circle like they can they can fake it until they make it kind of of avenue. So, I think like things like this I think is more like the conversion rate rather than what the downsides are because I feel like ETH is probably one of the most hated assets this cycle. And like the people who weren't going to invest aren't going to invest anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I I think it is a it's a courageous post though. Like whenever I see a a tweet like that, I think about like it's sitting in the draft. You're like, do I hit send? Because like we've all been there. Um I don't know. I I think you know that you're going to get dunked on left, right, and center by like any person who has a pulse and pays attention to crypto

and crypto Twitter. Um, but I like the I liked it like the reason is kind of the first time that you actually learn about Ethereum like this is the thought that's kind of in your mind, right? You're like, what is the internet worth? dollar terms like maybe that's Ethereum if crypto takes over the world. Um, so I think that's probably why it like hits more of a vein too is because like everyone has kind of drank that Kool-Aid at some point and then you kind of back out of it, right? And then you take a more kind of rational John Char type of type of view. Um, yeah, it t it takes like every account has its own brand. um like some things, you know, RSA could

post that like Kobe couldn't post or like someone who just does memes couldn't post. So, I I thought it was like pretty on target. It definitely pushes it more towards the the [ __ ] poster side, but I don't think anyone um I don't think anyone would look at Ethereum this cycle and be like, there's way too much [ __ ] posting. Like, I that's just like not I don't know. I think there's I think there's there's always room for more of that. Yeah, I I think that makes sense. I I think maybe a question that the space would have is like how many assets can you just like egregiously bullpost to multi- trillion market caps on you know on just like the hype alone. Um you know maybe maybe BTC can do that forever. Maybe even like you

know your your Teslas and your GMEs can get their you know they can get their pump every once in a while if you get enough people excited about it. Um, but I I think it it does there's maybe some pessimism here from from the opposing side. And I see Tolks kind of brought this point up, but like to see this return to like absurdist price target posting when people are have like real questions about, you know, how are you scaling the chain? How what are we doing with L2s? And like continuing to see, you know, hey, we formed a new committee. Hey, we fired this person, we hired this person, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. um but not seeing the results there. I I think it just like it opens up a lot of questions of like so are we ignoring the the real

effort and just going to the absurdism? Um because I don't know if that would give confidence to the I think you could bring confidence to the John Charbs of the world if the other half of that equation looked a little stronger. This is something that Ryan and I and I have gone back and forth about a bunch and kind of where our strategies have diverged recently. like most of banklist we've been of the same mind about like what the right strategy is. Uh and lately like in 2025 again he went on his like three monthatical and came back and he's like all right I'm going to meme ETH even harder now. Uh and my strategy has been a little bit more of towards like we you can't meme ETH on top of a weak foundation. And if you're going to be maximalist about an asset, but it's

on top of a weak foundation, those maximalists end up looking like the XRP or Cardano or just like weird cult community types. And if you want if you want the best form factor for like a a maximalist of your asset, it needs to sit on top of a strong foundation. And so like you can like relate any sort of cultlike community like even the Bitcoiners. What a Bitcoin maximalist looks like depends on like the foundation that that maximalist rests upon. Uh and so the Bitcoin maximalist rests upon the Bitcoin fundamentals. So 21 million units, monetary policy, all this kind of stuff. And how Bitcoin is constructed uh is expressed by the flavor of maximalist that comes out on top of on top of the

platform. So, Bitcoin maximalists are just downstream of the Bitcoin construction and Ethereum maximalists are going to be downstream of the Ethereum construction, but the Ethereum construction we understand has like cracks in it that need to be addressed. And so, my order of operations is like I kind of think that just going straight for me ETH as like a $750,000 asset because it should be comped to the United States GDP is putting the cart before the horse because we need to work on layer 1 execution. We need to work on Basa native rollups. We need to integrate the roll-ups. We need to scale the layer one. We need to work on UX.

And then once these problems become like solved and feel good, that sets in a new foundation to be more maximalist about Ether the asset and the nature of Ether the asset that doesn't look like the Cardanos or the Ripples out there. and instead that looks like something much more healthy and much more um inviting to skeptics uh that would then like okay see this tweet of $750,000 per ETH and be like what's really going on there and then they poke pull open the hood they pop open the hood and they take take a le look at the internals and if the internals of Ethereum are like solid and it's a strong foundation then like oh okay I see how that gets there whereas if it's still like memeing a $750,000

asset and you take a look under the blockchain under the hood and then like we're still doing like OP stack rollups based on OP and grants incentives then you're like well this doesn't make any sense and I'm going to reject this and so like my order of operations is like first you have to build a strong product in order to be the best kind of maximalist out there. Uh and if you do it any other order of operations then it's like you're going to end up looking weird. It it reminds me a lot of kind of how Tesla was viewed in 2017. Um and I might get heat for for this comparison, but the reason it reminds me of Tesla in 2017 is because um at that I was fullport Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Tesla.

Those were the only assets that I held. Um I was also 19. So like whatever like you can take more risk. Um, but I remember all of my friends who were finance majors are like all of the analysts that would try to break down stocks like this is so overvalued. All the earnings and in my mind I'm like guys he's going to build the iPhone of cars and like solar like all of electricity will run on this, right? And so I think that and eventually Elon ended up doing that, right? So it was like a bet on the execution to get to the point of like the TAM that had been expressed. Um so at any given point like the price was not justified via um whatever the rev in in this case for

crypto. Um but I think like Ryan's tweet in this he's like explaining the TAM right which is a fair thing to do. Um the meme is that he's saying there's a 100% chance of right reaching that TAM and saturating it. Like that is the joke. Um, and I think probably where people where like it's polarizing is everyone kind of has a different like you take the TAM and then discount it by the percent chance that you think it will actually execute to get to that point. And the debate around it at its fundamental at the core is like will it achieve that? Like what is the percent chance it gets there? And so on the ETH maxi side, most people are like it's

almost a foregone conclusion, in which case the meme hits for them where it's like, oh well, this is the TAM, this is what it should be worth. Um, on the people who have held ETH and are maybe down 50% after holding it for like four or five years, um, they're like, "This is never going to happen, right? Ethereum is not going to get here." And now all the people that are supposed to be the spokespeople are like joking about it. So, I don't know. It's it's hard to justify like it does take you don't come in to crypto if you don't have some kind of visionary predisposition. Um and I don't I don't hate at all on on trying to kind of realign the initial vision for it. Like spitting out crazy TAMs I like that you can't say RSA is the first guy ever to

do that. It was kind of built around that. So yeah, he's just doing it on the most hated asset and so it gets the most blowback. But I mean, there's a chance that if RSA was here, he would look us all straight in the eyes, not blink, and be like, "No, I'm [ __ ] serious." Like, $750,000 in ETH. I didn't I'm not joking. Like, that's that's what it's going for. Ethereum is like a digital nation state in the cloud. The internet's going to be the world's largest economy. What do you think the money of that economy is going to be worth? It's going to be worth at least 700. There's a chance that he would just like not blink. Yeah, I I I think you make some good points, Kevin. like uh I was having some similar thoughts on my run this morning about you know like the Teslas of the

world where you know traditional analysts are going to look at fundamentals for things and say like this valuation doesn't make sense but we're also living in like a more retail participatory world today and so like you can just have ass obviously not every asset it's just not possible but you know there can be assets and there can be periods of time where like they just go to astronomical valuations and hold those for a a long time because you have enough people who are saying I actually don't care what the numbers tell me like I just I like Elon Musk or what have you or I like Palunteer and I just want to hold this stock at you know 500p or whatever the number is right um so you know you can certainly see that happening as the

valuation gets larger and larger I think that you know that naturally becomes more difficult I think if we start talking about trillions you might really need something there to convince you know enough money to actually like buy into the the vision there. But I I certainly think like I mean this is how we end up with meme coins as well, right? Doge can go to nearly 100 billion on just people believing that it will go higher and they'll just buy it now. Um so I see that as well. But yeah, I think um on the you know, maybe not the Salana side, but maybe just the the anti- this take people, it I do see there's like a split maybe here between like pragmatism and just like lofty idealism perhaps.

You know, I you've got like the, you know, let's talk about revenues, revenue meta, you know, type uh individuals versus like, you know, let's just bull post our bags to the moon. Um and within in within this space with how much retail kind of mind share and uh you know narratives and things running up on to crazy numbers in short time periods like I think it's natural that you're going to get like a little bit of both and maybe the answer is like always somewhere in the middle kind of. I think that's right.

Cool. Well, let's uh we can call it on the ETH topic there. I think uh we don't need to fully turn, you know, the bankless guys, we don't want to take their jobs. they have enough. They need to cover ETH fulltime. So, even the Ethereum community is like, well, I mean, they want us they want us to cover ETH more, but then also not how we do it. So, like we're not doing it the right way because we keep on inviting John Charbano on. And so, like with our ETH coverage, it's like in this weird spot of just like there are some parts of the Ethereum community that I'm just don't align with anymore. And but then they also get frustrated when we don't talk about ETH, but they only want to talk about ETH positively. Uh, and yeah, I feel like in this weird spot

about that. Yeah, it's upsetting if you're not blindly bulling. You got to study Sailor. you know when your target is always 10 or 100x higher than today's price it's you know the community is always very happy about that uh especially when he's always buying so uh I think for whatever you know for with with Bitcoin whatever the immaculate conception whatever you want to say about Bitcoin like it is not viewed as much as absurdism at least with that asset right when Sailor and Kathy Wood and whoever else say that their target for 2040 is like 10 or 20 or 50 million a coin you know, you might look at that and go like, "Wow, that's kind of crazy." But I don't know, they don't they don't get attacked as much as when XRP says the coin is going to 10,000. So, um, it is

interesting that there's a divide there. Yeah. Um, in other news though, I I maybe another good topic here, stable coins have been pretty big. I think there's a lot of ways we can go at this. Uh, I'm just going to just run through a few headlines and like let's just chat it up, but I think some of the big stuff that's been happening like Stripe has been making acquisitions. Um they previously acquired Bridge that was a billion dollar plus deal. Um they recently just acquired Privy um for you know the wallet sort of applications there. Um Plasma has been running its sale and recently increased their cap from 500 million to a billion and that filled up again nearly instantly like I want to say maybe 30 minutes or so. 30 minutes. um they raised that money up and now we're seeing headlines like

Walmart and Amazon are considering maybe issuing their own stable coins or getting into this game somehow. Like stable coins have been a hot topic. It was a hot topic. Circle is holding $120 right now. That's insane. That's a that's $30 billion valuation for Circle. Cheap. Cheap. Is that Is that a joke or are you a Circle buyer? Uh it is a joke to to kind of point out the absurdism, but like I if there's like one clear bet that like is kind of undisputable across crypto, it's that like stable coins are going to be massive. And so you don't you run into kind of the similar Tesla 2017 side

where it's like the revenue doesn't justify this at all. How could anyone be buying it at this price? But then if you take the vision of like all right well I don't know you get five trillion uh USDC in circulation like at that point what is circle worth I think people just see what the US is pushing um and it's like the only thing that is unanimously agreed upon is that stable coins are great and it is a massive use case for crypto and then everything else is kind of up for debate speculation but like this is it's kind of the only pure way to express the opinion that stable coins will be big. Um, and then even across like the the administration, the

only thing that they've been 100% clear and certain on is that stable coins they're going to push and get rid of any red tape. Like it helps the dollar a lot. Like I don't know, people can argue whether ETH is money or ETH isn't money, but like USD is certainly money and like that's going to to proliferate. So yeah, it's just it's just interesting to see everyone in crypto having a hard time buying Circle. And maybe not maybe that's not true. Maybe I'm not reading the room right. But at $120, I can't get myself to buy Circle. I can't do that.

But then also, I can just also imagine institutional FOMO driving this thing up to it doesn't it doesn't matter. Like we know Tesla's at $1 trillion, which is insane. Why not? Why is Circle not one of those? I couldn't couldn't tell you, but man, it's it's it's hard for me to like buy Circle at 120. I I think the the key point though is like the people buying Circle at 120 are not the same people that are like buying crypto punks or like speculating on Salana going 10x, right? It's kind of like the institutions, it's a clear thesis they can get behind. They have a lot of money. This is the play for crypto. Um, and that's just going to drive a massive

premium. But like no one saw this coming, right? Like they completely mispriced the IPO. Um, I think it was the largest two-day gain IPO of all time or in 10 years or something crazy like that. So, it's just such a pure angle to bet on the one thing everyone's sure about in crypto that I think you get it's like mostly institutional flow is just like, all right, this is one thing I can get behind. If crypto becomes this massive thing, Circle will be worth more money than it is today. So, it's a buy. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very sad it hasn't shown up in my coin bags.

Yeah. I think I I think I agree with that take broadly. Like, you know, the timeline was again, you know, there was a focus on the revenues, the the fundamentals there. Um, saying, you know, this valuation doesn't look that exciting to me. And then, you know, just the fact that it's like it's the only pure play equity kind of exposure vehicle um to stable coins like you mentioned. It's hard to say that maybe you could have seen that, you know, coming or predicted predicted how high it would go here like in the short term, but um yeah, if the idea was for a fund or anyone else was to just get exposure to this um that's really one of the only options at least within the equity markets. So that piece of it at least makes sense to me in the immediate term.

We'll have to see how this kind of evolves. I don't know if they can just hang out at at a really high valuation over the long term. Um it does seem like this tends to happen early days for some IPOs that are maybe highly anticipated if it's a a new category or like new business in a field where there's not a lot of options to choose from. Um, and so you might expect that to thin out, especially, you know, over the next coming years if we've got, who knows if if Amazon and Walmart and everybody else is trying to get into stable coins, there might be a lot more competition on that front. Yeah, I'm actually Well, I don't think there will be because we know Tether will not go public because they they they're just not going to change their business model. Tether's

always just going to be Tether. And then their Circle, it's like three times smaller than Tether. And then after USDC, there's no other stable coin that's ever going to go public. And so, sure, like Walmart, Amazon can make their stable coins, but we know that that well, again, currently the market is not pricing in the narrative of stable coins into Coinbase. We know that that's true most likely. And so, why would Amazon, Walmart be good stable coin exposure if they try and do stable coins? Because they have like the rest of their business that's going to dominate their valuation. And so there's going to be there's going to be no other pure stable coin play on the tread markets other than Circle. They're going

to be the only one. You don't think PayPal has a shot at it? What has it? PYUSD hasn't done anything, right? No. It's pretty small. Yeah. And I remember it being like pretty heavily like subsidized as well. And market cap decreased on Salana after those incentives kind of ran out, right? Yeah. Okay. So, so there's 1 billion PYUSD according to Coin Market Cap, which I don't know why I'm looking at Coin Market Cap. I guess the bigger question is like over the long term though, how much do you want just raw exposure to this thing versus, you know, how much are you waiting based on its valuation to its to its revenues? Because I feel like to me that that seems like in the

short term like sure like let me just get exposure. I think the next few years for stable coins maybe like that's amazing but I I just think in the all possible imaginable worlds of the future in 5 to 10 years like is it still you know circle is the only option and like there's there's not real competition over this industry. It seems like there's going to be a ton of competition. Um businesses like every headline seems to be indicating that you know all all these major travel institutions and large like corporations are very interested in stable coins. So, uh, I think it just it opens up the question of like if there's going to be more competition, are they going to be able to maintain even their current market share, which, you know, Tether is still the dominant player here? And, um, if other players come in, maybe this

kind of breaks down a little bit further. You know, does the revenue picture and their earnings still look great, you know, five, 10 years out? Yeah, maybe to to I think there's more of a two-part question there. It's like one, are you a buyer circle right now? um to how does circles market share play out? On the first one, I would say like I think the reason we all spend so much time in crypto is because we feel like we have some edge like we have knowledge that other people who say are doing banking at Goldman like don't know about crypto and that's where you can be early and like do very well. And so I I would say like if my uncle or mom asked me for like ways to get exposure to crypto, I I

would say like I don't know, Circle Stock maybe is a good way to do that. Uh like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Salana. Um like it falls into that bucket, but it's not one like I feel like I know more about the market and like that wouldn't be the best kind of opportunity zone for myself. Um it's a dangerous place to be where like I'm not going to buy it, but you should buy it. Uh, but I do think that that's like kind of actually where where this falls in. Um, the other side, I actually I haven't heard people talk about this yet, but I actually think that the the attention that you get from having the pure play stock will actually help them gain market share. Um, it's almost like your

your token is your best piece of marketing. Um, it's almost like, all right, well, Circle has a token now. And it's like, well, everyone's going to watch what it does. I'm like, that's that's like a I don't know, like say there's massive banks that want to use stable coins for remittances and and settlement. Like, they're going to know Circle because it's this $30 billion stable coin thing that like everyone says is the future of stable coins. It's like backed and endorsed in the US. It kind of checks all the boxes and they probably use USDC because of that. Um, so I think it actually helps them on that side. I don't know. I I it I think you would have a very hard time competing with USDC and Tether as like a pure stable coin. Like you have kind of

longtail like Athena for example has done a good job of this but like they cap out right there's kind of a max size that you can get to. Um there's different, you know, kind of yield bearing stable coins, but like I don't know if you're if you wanted if you want someone to mint like 10 billion dollars worth of your stable. Um are they going to go with like the obvious USDC side or are they going to try to get some yield bearing version? Like I I just I don't see anyone else becoming like a massive winner. Um I think it is like the network effects are actually pretty important in this case and USDC just clearly has that for for at least institutional um size payments.

I think outside of just the pure plays like this this can also benefit like we mentioned Amazon and you know Walmart earlier like this can just help them with their businesses. I remember in London asked earlier this year um there was this panel that talked about you know whether what were they looking at to get upside in crypto exposure and it wasn't tokens it was equities who use blockchains as the backend technology to improve their businesses. So like if if Amazon you know had their own stable coin you know they would they could you know theoretically speaking some years down the road they could bypass you know credit card networks like Visa and Mastercard who take 2 to 3% you know they're settling it on their own rails they can control their transaction cost and then you know Amazon is this whole ecosystem right so like there's prime

Alexa Amazon pay AWS and then all of these services can be integrated into it and like you know Amazon can offer incentives like discounts or you know if you look at their their counterpart in Brazil, Micardo Libre, who's basically like the Amazon/PayPal of Latin America, you know, they've they've entered into like microloans and credits and they also have some crypto services, you know, and we can imagine like, you know, Amazon makes a lot of it free cash flow from ads, you know, why not something like why not BNPL with stable coins like what, you know, Apple does with their card, right? Like these are ways that you you know you don't need to have as much of a massive market as USDC to get as much if not more of the effects from

it. But if Amazon did create their own stable coin, I think it could compete. Boach, do you have any thoughts? You've been silent there since you joined. Well, I've been trying to get a word in, but you guys are very passionate. I thought we're talking Israel, Iran. Why? Yeah. Yeah. Drop your opinion. Let's get into it. No, no, no. I'm not going to do that. Um, let's not take a risk. I don't want Yano to fire me. Um, I don't have any strong opinions on this. I agree with Kevin that I don't see any new contenders coming in for a while or ever. Um, I think that's what he said. It kind of all became an amalgamation after the fifth minute. But

yeah, that's generally what I think. I think Athena's kind of capped. They are working on USDTB. Um, it's kind of small right now. It's like 150 mil mark. Is that correct? He doesn't know. They have USTB. I imagine with Converge it's going to get bigger and bigger, but I mean I don't think you can really compete with Father. I think most people have realized this. So, we'll see how it goes. What else did you guys talk about? Is there anything more interesting than stable coins? I'm really sorry. Well, wait. Before we move away from stable coins, when Walmart says we're going to do stable coins, is that is there like an actual business opportunity there or are they trend following? Because I can't I can't imagine what a Walmart stable coin would do. I can imagine

Walmart banking services just because they'd have the consumer relationship and they have the physical front end. They have the retail relationship and so people that are already going to Walmart, you could imagine just like a Walmart bank being in there. extending that to like why they haven't done that and why stable coins unlocks that I don't know and then I don't know why like maybe maybe Brandon trust but again I don't see Walmart's clientele being like power stable coin users so I don't really get it I mean didn't they didn't Starbucks end up getting a lot um on their gift cards even though you don't so I feel like it would be the same playbook know like somehow implement it and then return only half the yield you're

the other half, right? So, they just say take the bank business model, right? Yeah. Yeah. Except with less regulation, more regulation. I'm not sure what it's going to look like. Yeah. I mean, if you have the chance to earn yield on however much money you can just by saying we're adopting cryptocurrencies, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would you not? I I don't I don't even think you say you adopt cryptocurrencies. You just put it in the back end. Yeah. You just make it look like a regular dollar in a nice UX app.

Yeah. I will say like Amazon, Walmart, I mean a lot of these larger retailer corporations like they have their own pay apps now. Like there's Amazon Pay, there's Walmart pay. So I have to imagine it's like part of more of a strategy there. Like I you know I know everyone looks to like China in the east for example where you know we chat and we pay and like we this and we that and we that you know XYZ thing where there's like this massive integrated kind of services offering for a lot of businesses there. Um and clearly they're I think you know some of these larger businesses in in the US and elsewhere they're trying to do the same thing. So I think I agree with you there Mark like just trying to kind of horizontalize a little bit further and like capture this

associated business to our thing if customers are using like our pay app but then we can you know reduce some costs and like drop stable coins in there or like you know integrate some things into the back end there that make that a little bit better. Um that makes sense to me. Cool. Um yeah go ahead. We do EH is money. Yeah, we tal we talked about ETH, but happy to go back. No, no, I'm happy with I'm If you guys already talked about I was a little nervous about that one. I was nervous we're gonna have on James Kristoff while we're doing EA's money.

Well, he can uh he can crash out later. I think he's going to come on later and uh you know, maybe he'll give his aftertake. But did we give any hate to Monad? Why do we hate? You want to you want to crash on? I was just curious. I was just curious. Hit me, brother. No, no, no hate for Mona. There's maybe a good there's a good topic in there. I guess what I would say is like I I think you see some criticism or back and forth between like, you know, Monet is good for Ethereum, Monet is bad or competing with Ethereum. I guess I'd be curious your guys' thoughts like you know David if you have thoughts there but then you know Kevin maybe from the Monad side

like how are we thinking about this? All chains are bad for all other chains which includes layer 2. Uh and so yeah uh Monad is better for Ethereum than it is for Salana I think. uh any any expansion of the EVM I think is better for other EVM related things. Um I don't really know if the analysis goes much deeper than that. Um like I think the the maximally bull case for Ethereum downstream of Monad would be um uh Ethereum the layer one just goes faster

because Monad becomes a client like the Monad tech becomes like an Ethereum client. Um, and but there's like licensing around that. Like Monad has like you can't you can't just rip that code and make your own Ethereum a client to my understanding. Maybe Kevin can correct me. Um, but also to some degree I kind of hope that some rogue client team just like steals the monad tech and makes an Ethereum client. I hope that happens actually. And I say that as a monad angel. So yeah, I think um I actually used to get this question a lot more maybe a year ago. I feel like the kind of ETH alignment meta conversation has taken a little bit of a backseat, but I don't know. My my take on it is

most people when they talk about is this good for Ethereum are basically saying like will this use the ETH token and if it does not then it is an enemy of the state and is hurting Ethereum. Um, I don't think that that's true. Um, I think that Monad is going to make Ethereum the blockchain much better and it's probably the only standalone project that will have done that in any meaningful way like in the history of crypto. Like there's been three years of research now done in engineering um for monad for the EVM.

Like there are a lot of things like Bonnet will go live and Ethereum is going to actually get more efficient and faster and better because of that. And so like in an objective standpoint, Ethereum will get better because Bonad exists. Then people want to talk about like oh market dynamics and trying to predict like what happens. I that's very hard to actually go through, right? You can take a million different stances and it's really hypothetical at that point. But I think like something clear like an example of what I'm talking about. Um there's a lot of research being done right now on different op code pricings.

Um we think that like the pricing for op codes is actually not optimized on Ethereum. Um Monad spends a bunch of time, effort, resources going through to like do that research and figure out what the accurate pricing should be. Figure that out, implement it, submit it as an EIP. And like I don't there's no reason that like Ethereum wouldn't accept more accurate pricings for different op codes, right? Like Ethereum gets better because of the work. Like it's an it's an orthogonal effort doing a lot of research which like does contribute back to actually making Ethereum better. So there's a lot of like I don't know there how many LTs are there, David? You might know there more.

No, there's so many. All right. So there's 100,000 L2s and they're all trying to make ETH better in the exact same way because they're going to use it as a gas token um and use DA like out of some of them don't even use that but so like they're all doing the exact same thing to try to strengthen the ecosystem. mine is the only one taking this other approach of like doing an extreme amount of deep research that will contribute back and like Ethereum will be strong. Like I think it really is kind of an iron sharpens iron um type of thing, right? There's going to be things you can do on Mona that you just can't do on Ethereum. Um, but I think the real of how it plays out in practice is like somewhere greater than 0% and probably

less than 50% of what Monet has spent a very long time building um will be adopted by Ethereum and it will be much stronger, much faster, much cheaper because of that. I think that's the amicable narrative. Uh but also EVM users and EVM based TVL and EVM wallets are going to be Monad's like primary targets for growth. Uh and so I mean there's the antagonistic side of this too which is like Ethereum cons the Ethereum base any good things of value that Ethereum has is Monad's most approximate target for um is that's

their target. Uh, and so it would monad would make sense to go after like Ethereum users and Ethereum assets primarily, right? Yeah. I don't I don't think that like listen, if we're going to justify a $89 trillion TAM for Ethereum, right? I don't think that like the pie at at the current place where we're at is like what actually matters though, right? Like if if we have this view that like we need a 100x across all of crypto via users appreciation like whatever pick some KPI that means crypto is doing well right if we think that that needs to go 100x for crypto to be meaningful um

20% market share going to some new L1 in a short term does not change anything right in terms of long-term vision Ethereum is going to be better at things than monad will be right there's just different use cases is um like if you if the main thing you care about is being able to like selfstake and extreme censorship resistance like Ethereum to run it on Ethereum is going to be cheaper than to do it on Monad. Um it's only like two acts right like the main point of monet is to actually have extremely modest hardware requirements.

Um but like there there are absolutely advantages of Ethereum over Monet. And so I think generally crypto at least monad does not exist right now. We are a test. Will monad be money? Monad. Uh I I'll let you kind of decide that via long form post and stuff post uh post launch. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's like it's the same way I looked at Salon and Ethereum back in the day. It's like Salon is going to be better at a lot of things than Ethereum is at least in the short term. Um, Ethereum is the best at what it is, right? A decentralized, censorship resistant network programmable um, allegedly money, potentially oil,

potentially the GDP of the US, but like they're it has strengths, right? It's they're all they're critical parts of of the entire crypto eco. So, I don't know. I don't think like there's no I can tell you from like the mindset of everyone working either at the Mona Foundation or like teams building on top like there's no like backroom conversation like how does this vamp like it's just not part of it right it's like what can we what can you build on monad that was impossible to build before and how do we get to that point as quickly as possible Kevin what are some um apps you recommend we check out on Monad. I feel like

we I'd like to hear out what like your top three or four. I know you probably have to be diplomatic, so I expect that you might not be able to answer, but I could I mean, I try out all the apps, right? I I test them out all the time. I don't think this is going to be like the make or break for who everyone uses to to check out, but I would check out Kuru. Um, I think that's an an awesome app there. Essential order book built on monad. You can also launch tokens. Uh, great great UI UX. Um, Ky as well is like on the social betting side of things. Ky's dope. I really like Ky.

Ky I think it has the best UX of like I don't know any any crypto app that I've used so far is um I tried it out. It's really dope. Yeah, it feels nice. If you use it, you're like this doesn't really feel like crypto. Um, Opinion Labs is really cool. Um, they're it's essentially like pump fund for prediction markets, right? So, it's like I you want to bet or have a prediction market on something, you can like spin it up within opinion labs. Um, I think that one actually doesn't get enough attention. I'm really excited for what that can be. Like I think we saw what happened with Pump Fun. Um, we've seen prediction markets like especially during the election, but in general, right? like Poly Market has been one of if not the breakout apps of of this

year. Um, couple perexes that that are definitely worth looking into as well. Um, yeah, I mean I guess it depends what the the weird thing about a test net is like it's very the apps that you would recommend are very like consumer uh based on consumer applications because like there's no money on the test net. So like DeFi that the interesting thing with DeFi is like money. Yeah. Right. The interesting thing with the with consumer apps is like the actual app itself. So test net is definitely uh more friendly to to consumer apps and and people texting those out. Yeah. It's kind of like playing poker without any money. It's it's not really worth it, right? Yeah.

It's a different You're like, "All right, this is, you know, I can throw some banter around with my buddies and and try to win a hand, but it's different." Yeah, it's a good way to put it. I like the the EVM is going to get better with Monatic. I actually I think it makes from what I understand and obviously you're incentivized to say this is true, but you guys are the only ones working on both software and hardware as opposed to just like limiting um consensus and just like letting one massive machine do everything. you guys are the actually ones that focusing on decentralization a bit more than Ltos obviously and then maybe some other EVM implementations.

Yeah, I think I mean the the entire point right the core of Monad is um if you write better software you can get way more out of the hardware than is um than you already get for Ethereum or Salana for example right Salana it's like well we can use a ton of RAM and that's going to speed things up a lot um like the really kind of the main innovation that is the backbone for the entire monad sack is um is optimizing the SSD. Yeah, it's something that hasn't really been done yet, but like rewriting a a database or writing a database from scratch to like custom fit

the needs of a blockchain, like that's that's been the biggest endeavor from the category labs team. Um, and I think that that's like that kind of underpins all of the other optimizations actually having uh having a big impact in in performance, speed, um, transaction fees, etc. But yeah, that decentralization point is the that's the entire key, right? It's like if you optimize the SSD, then like it costs like 1,500 bucks to get a full node and run it for monad. like it's very modest relative to like if you want to be a validator on on other networks.

Yeah. One thing I want to say is um David actually I think I've watched a few banklist pods. I don't watch a lot of pods but my favorite one was when um Kei and Lei were on it and it kind of this massive argument. Um I love Mega E. Like I really like them. I I like their approach. It's different, but I like their approach. I like what they're building. But I thought that was that was a really really good to the point that I'm trying to emulate it at permissionless by having both of them because I want to steal your exact flow and kind of get the exact same interaction. I hope it works out, but we're gonna see. By all means. Yeah.

D, you're gonna Yeah. Awesome. Well, uh, I think it was great having you guys on. David, Kevin intern, uh we got to chat. Both your guys maybe favorite topics hopefully. Uh ETH's valuation and a little bit about Monad and the ecosystem. Uh Mark, thanks for coming on as well. We're going to transition into the second half of the show. So appreciate you guys joining us and uh to the audience out there, go check them out. David with Bankless and uh Kevin intern as maybe more of you know him on Twitter uh from Mon and Mark Arjun of course from the research team. Uh, we're gonna see you guys in the Telegram.

Yeah. And come join the Telegram. Actually, uh, David's been in there chatting it up. So, you know, you can, uh, chat with, you know, at least this half of the Bankless Pod, maybe in a less eccentric environment, I guess, is maybe the way to say it. Yeah, that's about right. All right. Bye, guys. Awesome. Thanks for coming on, guys. Yo, are we keeping Bach on? Of course, man. This is my [ __ ] show. Yay.

All right, round two. Um, is there anything you guys wanted? James, I know you were dying to talk about some things you were messaging in the Telegram while we were live for the first half. So, if we want to go back to anything and and get your takes on it, I'm happy to do it. Yeah, B. I have one thing I want to talk about. Now, everybody who's listening to the bot, look at Westy and tell me he doesn't look like like a 1800's Irish farmer or fisherman, right? Like, the build is insane. Are you serious?

No, it looks great. It's an ancient build. You don't you don't see this type of face walking around cities anymore. It It's from the past. It's very powerful. an ancient book. This is the value that Bach brings to this podcast and platform as a whole. Yeah. I mean, I made some pretty good conversation. You have to admit, Danny, I wasn't listening. I'm sorry. That's fine. Danny, you have to admit. What do I have to do? You have to admit I brought some pretty good conversation. Yeah. What did you say? Um, Israel and Iran should Oh, come on.

I'm leaving. No, James, actually what I wanted to chat about with you specifically and maybe get the room going on was we had a little bit of conversation in the Telegram this morning about the stable coin piece. We talked a little bit just before with the other guys, but um you actually had some push back here on like why it even makes sense like why are all these why are all these businesses going to issue stable coins? It maybe doesn't make sense. Don't understand what problem it solves. I guess I want to get into that with you. Like what are we thinking here? Like is the stable coin narrative maybe less exciting than people think it is? Yeah, I think like the the Walmart stuff is super

interesting, but I think a lot of times people aren't thinking about it from like a consumer UI perspective. So I think like for anything to work for like really really non cryptonnative people like it has to be totally totally abstracted away. Like if someone who's a Walmart customer has Walmart coin and they have Amazon coin, like I don't know, you guys tell me if you disagree, but I think that they would just never work for like your normal person who has no idea what crypto is, right? Yes, I agree with He doesn't agree.

Who doesn't agree? What's the debate? The debate is over. Fantastic. you won. We can do the last panel to debate maybe. Yeah. Wow, that was a a quick take there. Not not super deep. All right, let's get into another topic. Something I guess I guess like to me I always wonder like are they starting backwards from seeing this opportunity to earn the risk-free rate for free and then they're working back to create a problem to solve, right? Like I'm sure there's a lot of people at McKenzie that have recommended all these companies create stable coins because it's a great business. Um like I don't know I use Amazon multiple times a

day. I've never complained about the payments flow as an issue. I don't mind having my Amazon credit card hooked up to it. Like that to me is already abstracted away. Um it definitely sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. I I don't think that Amazon needs a stable coin to increase penetration, right? Like I don't know. Yeah, it's to me it's not like an increase penetration play. It is like earning the the risk-free rate. And you can you can imagine a world in which Amazon has a similar product to that of Starbucks where people have their Starbucks app and they hold cash within the Starbucks app. I have many friends that have like like $50, $100 in this app just sitting there and you could

imagine that adding up and then them basically holding on to that cash and earning the risk-free rate with a with a high percentage of that cash. So to me, I think that's like the play here is to try and maybe make some sort of like Amazon rewards or like deposits on on the website and make that like a normal user flow and then you can earn uh like the risk-free rate on those deposits potentially. Yeah, I think that's probably right. It just it doesn't strike me as something that's like particularly exciting or groundbreaking. I don't know, especially if you also consider like the scale of Amazon's business. Um, like how much of

their net income is actually not driven from their standard Amazon consumer business. Like does this really move the needle for it on their bottom line? Maybe. I don't know. Um, but yeah, it doesn't seem seems like more of a headline than something that's like really groundbreaking and exciting to me at least. Yeah. And also like my my take is probably a bit bigger brain than what's probably actually happening where I think Nick Karp had a good comment uh on the the Twitter chat where he said Walmart like hasn't even figured out Apple Pay yet. Like how are they going to figure out the stable coin thing? So, it makes it more likely that it's like chasing headlines and seeing that stable coins are hot right now and that, you know, Stripe is acquiring stable coin

businesses, all these other players like Starlink is using stable coins, like they're just hearing it so much they feel like they have to say, "Oh, we're we're in the game now." Uh, despite having no actual concrete strategy. Yeah. I mean certainly part of this is you know the big big corpse they see the headlines they see what's happening with other businesses and you know you know that there's someone who's making a decision at a you know high enough level that says hey spin up a group and let's like let's brainstorm some ideas on this idea on this topic um and that I think that's kind of how you end up with a lot of announcements like this certainly back in 2021 when we had uh all the Twitter accounts tweeting about you know

hey friend what's your favorite NFT I'm you know part of that had to have been you know hey we need to get some motion going on uh this crypto stuff get involved let's get some mind share going so to an extent I can see a piece of that there but uh I think I agree generally like James Westy like you know maybe a piece of it is that interest margin maybe a piece of it is like you know some some cost optimization from the perspective of like processor fees or other things if you can you know swap out backend systems Um, but in the immediate term, you know, it it's probably not that exciting.

These are things that are going to take way more time. Yeah. And like I had this discussion, I think Christy, who joined the chat recently, like I'm I'm sometimes kind of confused as to what people are trying to sell for in the domestic space. Like I think we've known for a really long time like crossber payments to emerging markets and you know someone in India being able to buy USDC with like native rupees that are that are inflating every day like totally I got it I'm sold. Um I'm still a little skeptical when people are like yeah we need stable coins for me to go down the street in Manhattan and buy coffee. I'm like, I don't know. Like, my Apple Pay has worked for a really long time and it's my credit card or my debit card or my Starbucks rewards points.

Like, that flow is is great. It's fine. I'm not really sure what problem is being solved by throwing USDC in the mix of that and me paying with USDC to a merchant. Well, this is I think it's difficult for Americans to always understand this because you guys don't have this issue, but like you said there are countries that have this issue and cross I mean you would know more about this than I do James but I assume crossborder settlement is kind of an issue. Is this correct? I mean, I mean, it depends, right? I mean, most it like for for an average person, yeah, it's like next to impossible. Like, if I wanted to, you know, get pounds or get like Singaporean dollars, like it's very difficult for me

to do so versus like going to the airport and buying cash, right? Like there's there's actually no way for me to just like save my money in other currencies. So, that I get. Um I just don't know is that a big market for people? Maybe, maybe not. Um, I I'm just thinking of of this within the context of like people talking about stables as payment within the domestic United States, which is obviously the biggest market in the world. Um, I just don't I don't really get what the point of it is. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think to that point as well like you know Stripe they're they acquired bridge for one and some billion and that's you know the the target there is for facilitating crossber payments for probably mostly businesses but maybe consumers as well.

I have a question about bridge. Can I start my own bank or my own stable coin using bridge? When you say bank what do you mean? It's my own bank like via terms of law. I I don't know. We're not lawyers. Yes. Pacio's bank is now open for business, you know. Well, why not? Isn't that the whole point? You can set up your own infrastructure and your own stable coins. Why shouldn't I be able to? It's permissionless finance. I'm trying to take on risk and people should trust me with their money.

Isn't that the point, though? I'm being serious. Isn't that what they're allowing? It's for people to build out. Why are you laughing, dude? It's for people to build out infrastructure for lending and borrowing money. I think I I believe I have a finance degree. I believe that people should trust me with their money. Can I do it, Westy? Just that quote. I want to take on risk. People can trust me with their having to do with stable coins. Dude, I want to go bank mode. you know, 0.1% collateral.

Let's make a movie. I mean, you're kind of joking, but this is what every bank is thinking about. It's like, how can you make your own stable coin? It's like that's not going to work because then you have like fragmented liquidity in like your individual stable coin. Like what what's to say it's going to get adoption? like really people are going to flock to like the network effects that already exist because you know you have liquidity to get in and out. Yeah, I'm fairly like if I had to guess and without knowing anything myself like I would be very surprised if there wasn't like a consortium bank stable that gets launched in the next couple of years.

Like that's that seems like a fairly high probability event. Like there's not going to be JPM coin and Goldman Coin and Morgan Stanley coin. Um it's very very probable in my mind that there there's going to be a centralized um you know bank issued stable. Ian welcome. What's up guys? How's it going? Happy Friday. Thank God. Am I right? You can really feel the weekend. I didn't know you were involved in Wolf Swap. Nice. Yeah. Ape Deborra Al lead Wolf Swap.

That was one of my first um investments actually. I Yeah, you've been good to us. You've been a real value ad on the cap table. Thank you. Ian from Kyos Research has been uh keen on this bit for a while, but we're here for it. I'm curious how Teddy's doing with his uh his investments into Wolf Swap as well. I know he's been glued to the screen for the past few weeks. Yeah, I mean it's one of it's one of our highest conviction plays obviously. Um you know and Pacio is the one who facilitated the introduction. So thanks again for that Bacio. Um yeah on on the yeah to yeah you facilitated the intro

to Wolf himself. So, um, for there he is. For the stable coin stuff, I do I do agree with like James' take on that. You'll probably see like a a zel equivalent for some stable coin. Okay. Okay. I'll bring it back to seriousness. Danny, there there is one thing um that Mike was talking about in chat and we were actually going back and forth on it and I think I actually kind of changed my tune on it like did a 180 today if you want to if you want to talk through this the bank funding mechanic of stables which is very nerdy but I think interesting.

Yeah, you actually just run it. Keep going. Yeah. So like initially Mike had a post that I agreed with that um banks issuing stable coins would actually eat into their net interest margins. Um, so if you think of like, you know, just generically how a bank works, they take bank deposits. They lend them out at some risk rate and then they pocket the spread between that. Um, and then obviously they they don't pay much to depositors. So Mike's thought that I was initially on board with was like, you know, if they take take a deposit and then invest it into the risk-free rate, like that's going to be lower than their spread on all of their other loans that they're making at risk within the bank.

So it's actually going to be net negative for them. Um, and then I kind of rethought it a little bit. I'm like, wait, no, I actually don't think that's how it it's going to work. Um, and it's going to be more like they're offering this as a product similar to, you know, a custody asset on a bank's balance sheet. Like, so for example, you look at like Bank of New York Melon, right, which is one of the biggest custodians in the world. They have 53 trillion dollars of custody. Like those assets from an accounting and capital perspective don't actually sit on their balance sheet as an asset, right? So, the way I assume this flow is probably going to work is JPM or whoever will offer this as a product um where basically you just give them your money and you get a stable coin in return and

then they don't have that asset on their balance sheet um and then they basically just get to invest it in a money market fund and clip the interest on that. So, I think it's actually going to be very very accreative to them. What were you talking about? You're not going to acknowledge what James just said? You're not going to any feedback? I mean, it's a good little spiel there. I My brain is so rotted. I can't I thought you have a finance degree. I was probably going to be impressed. Yeah, but like the shitty kind of finance degree, if that makes sense.

That makes sense. I do think um we can kind of go back and forth on like maybe what it would look like or how it would be would be valuable, but it does seem like a maybe a piece of this is relatively up in the air in terms of the legislation though, right? I don't I know your thoughts there, Jim, as well. like it seems like things could be completely different depending on what is allowed or not allowed in terms of maybe what the backing has to look like or you know how yield can can or cannot be or um needs to be handled. Um because maybe they end up looking more like actual dollars or maybe they end up looking more like you

know sort of like money market funds or even something else. I don't know. And it seems like seems like Athena kind of throw a wrench in that as well, right? Like there might even be some more differentiation here. You shouldn't have brought James. Can I honest thoughts on Athena? What do you mean? Well, what do you think about it? Do you want him to crash out? We did this one before. There's no reason to crash out. You know my thoughts on Athena. I think it's a cool idea. I think the product is great. I think looping it and borrowing it is silly. I don't think we need to like go into super more detail about it, right?

All right, let's uh let's get away from the stable coins. We talked about stable coins for I want to say 40 minutes at this point. I've got another topic I think is really relevant. Um I know Dan Smith is wiggling in his chair like he's so excited about these comments from uh SEC chairman Paul Atkins. But uh some big takeaways from Paul at the SEC. Let me pull it up. Uh just a quick screen here, but he he dropped some information in a quick little note on some different things in relation to the SEC's view on different parts of DeFi and crypto. Um the big one here saying the right to have self-custody of one's private property is a foundational American value that should not disappear when one logs onto the internet. I'm a favor of

affording greater flexibility to market participants to self-custody assets, especially where intermediation imposes unnecessary transaction costs or restricts the ability to engage in staking or other onchain activities. I'm going to run through a couple more quotes because he said a few things uh that I think people might find interesting. Um, one of the other ones being I'm grateful to the division of corporate finance corporation finance staff for clarifying its view that voluntary participation in proof of work or proof ofstake network as a minor validator or staking as a service provider is not within the scope of federal securities law. Um, as happy as I am over that step, it's not a rule with a force of law. So, um, the SEC should adopt some reg some regulation

based on their authority is his view. And then um another big one he mentioned was and let me just scroll down a little bit. Uh specifically mentioning how they might interact with DeFi and cryptoreated platforms going forward. um essentially saying that you know potentially urging the SEC to have a bit more of like a an innovation exclusion uh framework in mind to allow teams and developers to kind of bring products to market such that they're not you know unduly burdened by you know red tape basically. Uh but all in all like several comments here that are very uh positive and you know seemingly

productive for for crypto and DeFi. Um kind of continuing this like 180 away from the like you know regulate legislate and like kind of sue and and knock down um from the the prior administration prior SEC and their approach to DeFi apps. Um, I guess one of the big ones and maybe Ian, I'd love your thoughts here with your, you know, research and interest like within the validator scene and, you know, staking platforms and restaking and things of that nature like having this view around validators and staking as a service providers um, not being kind of like within the scope of law. Um I don't know

has has that been a problem for you or for others in the industry like in the way of conducting business? Yeah, I mean first of all totally agree with your take on like this being a full 180 uh especially from you know like the regime who you know without a doubt was trying to squander the industry. Um yeah I mean this is great. I mean this is this is just like fantastic to see. You want American businesses to be operating in America. You don't want them to have to set up all these like offshore entities, all these other things. Like you want the same transparency that comes with, you know, operating any American business. Um, and so I mean for for us from the staking

side, like that's that's great. Um, we're really happy to see that and I'm sure a lot of the other like institutional players are too. Like I think now this is a pretty big thing right before the Salana ETFs actually go through their approval process as well where now this looks like there's going to be some staking uh introduced with a lot of these products from the get-go which is pretty cool. Uh so because like if you're going to be buying and holding an ETF, you might as well have that asset be staked. Uh so hopefully you'll see you know uh institutional grade products and uh institutional liquidity grade products like Judith like integrated with a lot of these ETFs uh from the start. I mean that would be fantastic. Um but yeah this is this is

awesome news and just a you know imagine imagine reading that a year and a half ago or anything like that just saying like this is what the SEC chairman will be will be saying. Uh, unreal. Fantastic. There's no no other big takes there. One thing that I found really interesting from this was um another specific comment here about most current he said most current securities rules and regulations are premised upon the regulation of issuers, intermediaries such as broker dealers, advisers, exchanges, clearing agencies, etc.

um but said you know the drafters of these rules probably did not contemplate that self-executing software code could displace them. Um so he said I've asked the commission to explore whether further further guidance or rulemaking may be helpful for enabling registrants to transact with these software systems in compliance with law. Um, this to me sounds really interesting, right? Like I think in the past there were, you know, some attempts to call like self-custody wallets and other things like, you know, describe them as like brokerages or that they were like offering services basically for their clients that might kind of put them into one of these classifications. But um I think as we know like a lot of deep applications it's you kind of throw it up you throw it up there online and it's available to

be used and you know there's maybe like greater levels of involvement in some cases more so than others like depending on you know if there's nodes and other pieces of software that are being operated by individuals or groups or what have you. But um it does seem like we're maybe stepping in the right direction here. Uh, I guess I'd be curious anyone's thoughts and maybe James yours as well from kind of the more Trady side. Um, how do we think this like things might shape out from here?

I think it just I think it's like every like like echo what Ian said, everything is a is a good sign. I think like I don't think anyone would look at this and say it's anything but amazing compared to we were a year and a half ago. Um, I mean, everyone that I talked to is pretty geeked up and and trying to do more um within crypto. I think with the ultimate goal of eventually being able to trade the asset natively um on a bank's balance sheet. Um, I I think like I'm optimistic that it'll happen probably within the next 3 or 4 years, but I think it's I think it'll still be kind of a slo to build out the tech and get the regulation in place. U, but everything like this, like without being super

specific, it's just an incremental um good sign that it's going in the right direction. Um, I guess my my only fear is that like this stuff is only as workable as the administration is friendly to it. And I really just have that kind of like nervousness in the back of my mind that if in the next administration it be someone that is less friendly to crypto. Um if this stuff goes backwards, I would really hate to see that. Um and that's kind of why I wish the Trump family would be a little less directly embezzling funds with crypto. Um it just kind of I think sets the precedent for Democrats should they win the next election to reverse things. But you know, I think that's super far down the road.

Yeah, I don't have any other takes really other than this is good. These are good. Like I feel like already knew when Paul Atkins was sworn in as the SEC chair that he would be very favorable. It is nice to see it actually like in paper and the language he used was great. Um, but for the most part, this is kind of information we already knew. And so I'm thinking about this from a market perspective. It's like these comments shouldn't change too much about what's priced in. But it is cool to see from someone who works in the industry and has had years of like some like the SEC

just bashing down constantly that like seeing these things written down is like, oh, like incredible. This is what we've been fighting for for years. And I strongly agree with James's point. It's like it's you feel good about it now, but then you you you think ahead and and you're like, "Okay, yeah, if if Trump continues to like continue to be this close to the metal with crypto and doing quote unquote like nefarious things, uh I guess there's like certain degrees of that. But if if there's like a a change in the administration in three, four years, like and he's so close to crypto, is

there like a 180 switch if you see like democratic control? Um like do they start just going back to the Gendler regime of bashing crypto again? Because that's the easy anti-Trump thing to do immediately. So, like there's definitely that that I'm thinking about as well that I think not enough people are talking about. Is every incremental Trump crypto project uh like a a negative to the space kind of I mean the first one or two it's like you're just trying to get involved

but it's like the more that these teams try and layer on like um like the the FIF fight team doing the meme coin and then doing like a second Melania coin and then now trying the wallet. It's like they're doing too much. Like you have to know what what the line that's like ambiguously true that it's you can you like Yeah, they had to silence him. They had to [ __ ] silence and that's crazy. Um yeah, I agree with you. I think it's I think it's too much. Um, I wonder if the market will just self-correct itself eventually where it

like stops giving it attention or as much attention. Um, such that it stops affecting it. Like if liquidity stops flowing towards every time towards it every time it launches, then eventually it stops being a problem, right? Well, sure. But it's like they're going to do that until the liquidity stops, right? they're just going to keep hammering it, taking as much money as they possibly can that the market gives them. And I'm saying that that approach is a short-term good strategy, but a bad long-term strategy because like as soon as you get to the point where the market is no longer rewarding that that is you are at a point where the sentiment is

negative around that thing, right? It's like you should quit while you're ahead and and try and play long-term games. uh and like when yeah when in the long term versus the short term. H something I've related it to in my head is like when you see celebrities launch product lines and obviously this is different because they're finance apps. like it's a little different than, you know, Kylie Jenner having a clothing line or a makeup line, but um I I do think you see similar opinions get expressed in those cases as well where it's like, you know, yeah, let's take an average thing, stick my name on it, and then get a massive premium from retail people who follow me for selling it to

them. Um but I also think that like that's just kind of the state of the world we live in. like, you know, influencers can flex their brands and like get a premium for basically selling products and content to to their audiences. And so it doesn't surprise me that, you know, Trump and the Trump family are doing the same. I may, you know, I might get a little upset that how much and how, you know, open like out there they are with it. But uh yeah, I think it's Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's definitely his brand, you know, like he has a massive building right in the Chicago River. Like he has a couple buildings uh in New York, buildings all like hotels all over the world. He had

ties like everything he's done essentially in his business world had his name branded on it. So, it's like to me it's no surprise he's a token. Um, obviously like he's not like the personal one launching it or anything like this, but I mean I Yeah, it's like a hard line to tow obviously. Um, but it's like you know if if this is the if we get this and then actual like favorable favorable regulation of any sort and the regulation seems to be really sensible um I'll take that as a byproduct. I don't really mind. Like literally Gary Guesser was trying to kill the industry and like a handful of Democrats like Elizabeth Warren trying to kill the industry. Uh they were suing

every single exchange and every single team that was trying to build on shore. They're lying to them. They were gaslighting them. Uh it was the worst possible setup we could have had. Uh so I am happy with the 180 on that. I will take all of the other, you know, ridiculous stuff that might pop up in the background as a byproduct because like that's that's the nature of crypto. Like you're going to have ridiculous things pop up no matter what. Um, you know, if it's like truly permissionless. So, I don't really care personally.

Cool. All right. I got one other big one that I think maybe Bacio will have a strong take on. Uh, Pers, Clobs, Hyperliquid, all over the timeline. Coinbase the other day mentioned US Perpetuals coming soon. Yes, you already have your hands up. Bet against Coinbase anytime you can bet against Coinbase, bet against Coinbase. Chips, you know that Chud meme where he's like, I'm all in on nothing ever happens. I'm going Chud, I'm all in on Coinbase not doing it. It's either Hood, Hyperlquid, Binance, Kraken. These four fine, Coinbase, I'm all in. Nothing.

They're not going to figure it out. That's my take. We can continue. Yeah, clip that. Do not clip that. I mean, definitely clip that. Clip it. Didn't we do this last week where you're like, Steve, I told you Coinbase is a bad company. And you're like, yeah, you said that when Coinbase is training like $30, you missed out on a 10x. Like, congrats. Right. Well, I knew it was going to go up 10x, but it was going to drop after that, which is why it was just too much of a risk for me at that point. Totally. I didn't buy Coinbase because I instead bought Hyperlid, which is up 30x. So, it's not I mean, did you buy Hyperlid or were you gifted?

I'm an indentured servant undeserved airrop. Does it matter? Like anytime, would you bet on David or would you bet on me, Westy? Tell me this with honesty. I think that's actually a tough question. Daddy, your question. Maybe we should have David on right now and hear from him. I don't I don't think he's available at the moment, but Hey. Hey, David. I know you just had he's in the chat. Do you want to come on the Oh, he he is available right now. David, if you're at your if you're at your screen right now, I'm dropping you a link.

You're gonna get in here and debate Boach the Coinbase. Like, I don't know. The most interesting thing to me there was like people think it's going to take away market share from Hyperlquid. It's like, do you think people are trading on Hyperlid because they can't trade on Coinbase? I think a lot of a lot of people look at these new product launches as very like zero sum. It's like I imagine the pie just gets bigger. like you're probably going to see this also productized by Robin Hood. Um like perpetuals are obviously just going to get like bigger and bigger. Crypto is going to continue to grow. It's not like zero sum, you know, you can only have so much of the pie. Uh but like obviously the one to dethrone is Binance. Like Binance is still the king of of per

really hard to dethrone them. Um, and so yeah, I like the Coinbase edition is great, but I don't think it's like I don't think you need to look at that and like, oh wow, like this is the bare case for Hyperloop. That's definitely not like that that logic does not track at all. And if it does track in your head, reconsider. I do think that it could like it could be kind of a I don't think Coinbase is a bare case for Hyperlquid because against Coinbase, but I do think that Robin Hood launching purpose in the US could be not like a bare case because it's I think Hyperlid would probably still do

okay. Um, I don't really believe in all of that. Oh, it's just regulatory arbitrage thing. I don't think it makes a lot of sense because all of DeFi is regulatory arbitrage. So, I think it's kind of a cop take. Um, yeah, but I don't think it's a cop take, but I I'll follow up. Continue. I I think manufacturer like regulatory ARB is very much a manufactured term. Yeah, it's what Ryan Connor says and bet against Ryan Connor right now. I don't know if it's the perfect term, but it's definitely this like us people want to trade per where can they do that? Where can they actually do that?

Even if it is using a VPN. So like if you call that regulatory arbitrage, I think it makes sense. What are you doing with all the screens here? Dude, we had to kick Danny off. So I fixed it up to the original format. My bad. But the thing is it's like yes it's a place where people can actually trade. they don't have the KYC. But then if you introduce other trading venues, it's not like people will change their behavior. Like now Hyperliquid is just because of their nature. They're now directly competing with your Coinbases and Robin Hoods and they're probably going to have more liquidity, lower fees. Definitely Coinbase, lower fees. Uh and and like I think the

question is like Hyperlid has dominated the share of people trading PERPS in crypto today. Yeah. And who are the net new people that are going to be trading pers? Where are they going to trade is kind of the question. It's like do they go to Coinbase to trade maybe? Um Hyperlquid does seem like it's still in a pretty good position. Yeah, I think Robin Hood scares me more because they they're really good at UX. Um I I wouldn't be too worried about Coinbase, but like Robin Hood's UX is good. I'm a bit worried because Hyperlid has mobile technically. Um but it's through the progressive web app thing and not through a good application. I mean,

perps on mobile. Are you trading pers on mobile? I'm not, but people will. I mean, people trade options on their phone, you know? It's like I know that's not the majority of the of the world, but it's it's like it's what market makers want. They want dumb flow and that's it. It's like very much Robin Hood type users, right? Yeah. Like I definitely think they'll be able to, you know, productize that nicely and all these other things. Like if you look at the amount of like zero day to low expir options traded on uh on Rob, it's it's ridiculous. Um and so it's like people Yeah, there's already an appetype for

this type of thing. I think like they could literally just do like an up down and then like duration of time and then you know x amount of leverage or something like that. But like yeah, people are going to be trading them. But again, it's a different audience. Yeah, I um it's a different audience. We'll we'll see. I think I I'm sure there's teams on Hyperlquid working on this is another this is unironically I think like a good bit a good thing of um decentralized cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology is that there's people can build on top of things and then capture fees off of that versus I feel like no one's building an alternative Coinbase front end or an alternative Robin Hood front end but some guy could build a

mobile front end for Hyperlid and make it really really um and just tap into the order book. I don't know if they are um and I don't know if they will, but it is a possibility. So my book Axium, right? Like that's right. A good example. Yeah, I actually think Axiom probably did or will continue to do really really good for hyperlquid just because it's converting that class of Salana people into I mean if it can convert 1% of it that's like the ideal flow that you want into an exchange. It's people just putting on 50x logs. Um, no.

I feel like the moment I became host, we just started talking about Hyper Liquid, which is probably not That's just so It's so so strange, isn't it, Westy? Yeah, it's so weird that it just happens to flow that way. Did we have David on or we do, but we don't share the data on the live stream. Okay, dude. There's free effort capital trying to join in. This is how I know. Um, so what are your thoughts on the Coinbase announcements?

Mine? Yeah, I think it's good. I'm I'm happy with it. I won't ever use it because they like block you from using the exchange for no reason. I won't use it, but I'm sure it's good for the people who might not get blocked. Um, I have seen some pretty stupid comments like people quote tweeting it and saying like, "Oh, but like why would you create a physical card when everyone's using Apple Wallet?" Well, if they're creating the physical card, they're also going to integrate it into the Apple W. Are you [ __ ] like stupid? Um, and it's always like these these it's always the protocols that are like super academic but don't like don't like have anything out yet. So, like just spewing hatred towards everybody. Um,

yeah, that would I've not seen any of those takes. I don't know what kind of timeline you have, dude. My timeline is Is he going to be able to speak? I'm here. He's there. Sorry. Apologies for no camera. Uh, can't do that right now. But box said short Coinbase and that's pretty much my bat signal. So, I had to jump on defend my bags. We're glad you're here. Thanks for having me on. Um, yeah, you guys started talking about the Coinbase product announcements.

Yeah. What do you think? I am I think there's really nothing that was like unexpected. Um, US Per I saw that was kind of like hinted at probably a week or so ago at some I think it was like a Morgan Stanley summit. Um, I think them trying to become like this thin layer portal uh or front end for decentralized finance, you know, tapping into base dexes, tapping into other chain dexes. Like that's kind of the writing has been on the wall that for a while. I think they realize that they need to disintermedate disintermediate themselves um and tax tap into Dex liquidity. actually could be like long-term bullish for Hyperlquid. Like if it actually does become the purpose exchange for Global Finance. Um all

Coinbase has to do is really own the front end. Um and drive order flow to Hyperlid. So there's a chance that like this is actually net bullish both Coinbase and Hyperlid long term. Um what I thought was a big miss was the Coinbase credit card. I've been begging for a Coinbase credit card for years. Uh, and I know Wesy and maybe some others on this call probably disagree with me, but I think you need something that's like familiar to non crypto people, normies. I'll use my wife as a canonical example. I don't think this credit card like usually credit cards are not revenue drivers for companies.

They're customer acquisition tools. Coinbase already has the cryptonnative audience. Robin Hood is trying to capture cryptonnative audience from Coinbase. Coinbase needs to do something to capture normies from Robin Hood and capture normies from other traditional financial institutions. And I don't think a Coinbase credit card that gives 4% up to 4% back on BTC is going to be familiar enough to get the next net new user or marginal user onto their platform. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I that that kind of didn't move the needle for me. I was I'm a little disappointed in that. Um, what I thought was a big miss was that they didn't talk about anything related to tokenized stocks. I think that like again the writing is on the wall for that. Like

they should be pushing towards that. Um, they need to probably acquire a Weeble or E Toro or something to try to get the equity normief person into their ecosystem. But I think not announcing anything like that big miss from my perspective. and they need to move fast because it's obvious like Robin Hood's could be launching a crypto native product whether that's an at 2 or tapping into Salana who knows we'll find out in the next few weeks at ETCC but um those are my like immediate thoughts but want to hear what you guys think because someone that or some people that don't I guess have heavy coin bags I I like actually like your takeaways there about them being kind of out of step with the rest of the category right

now like Kraken and Robin Hood are some similar moves, right? Like offering US equities on chain to like the UK and other places outside the US. Obviously, Robin Hood already offers equities within the US, but it it it's interesting to me to see both of them going after that angle and not see like similar immediate or like recent announcements or, you know, kind of potential announcements of US per like Coinbase has. Um they're kind of like on opposite sides of this one right now, which feels interesting to me. Yeah.

Like I I think the hood versus coin debate is if you think Coinbase is just a an exchange, if that's all you think Coinbase is, then like Robin Hood will at le for at least in the short to midterm, I think like the writings on the wall that Hood will win that game just because they have better distribution and it's much easier to venture into crypto than it is venturing into equities or Trify uh from a Coinbase side. But if you think Coinbase is much more than that, it's like a pure play on the entire crypto stack, all the different infrastructure that they have, the developer platform, their partnership with stablecoin with with Circle and you want to be like bullish the growth of stable coins. Obviously, you can do that through Circle, but the

reality is Coinbase makes 50 to 66% of all Coinbase or all Circle revenue right now. So, I still think uh Coinbase is the better pure play bet on the crypto ecosystem, 10xing, 100xing from here. But if you just want to look at Coinbase as just a centralized exchange, it's like then Robin Hood's definitely the better exchange bet. What would you say is the other thing for Coinbase? Again, I mean over what is it like 30 40 50% of the revenue is stable coin revenue right now. So I mean obviously like they're a better stable coin bet than Robin Hood will ever be. At least I don't see I don't you know they're trying to make inroads on that. there's part of this whole consortium uh called I think

Global USD with Paxos and a couple other Fit Tank companies. So, Robin Hood definitely is like making that play into that venture. But I think you guys already talked about it earlier today like nobody's going to be Tether or Circle I think anytime soon. So there there's other and like there's be a world where eventually Coinbase monetizes develop their Coinbase developer platform. um they're monetizing Coinbased business now. Like they're making inroads to be an infrastructure uh crypto as a service uh layer for the entire global financial system. Like that is the bet. Like I don't see Robin Hood ever getting there.

So, if you think like that TAM is larger than the exchange TAM, which is like currently Coinbase's largest revenue driver and largely what Robin Hood is today, then I think like you could still be I'm still long-term bullish Coinbase because it's a bet on other layers of the stack outside of just like the exchange layer, which is largely what Robin Hood is today. So my my comments on the credit card, which I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you. If anything, I was just confused by your tweet or you were like, you know, I thought about it. Uh, this is a bad idea

because they're not onboarding people. The thing they need to do is have boosted morpho yields. That's the thing they need. That's how I read your tweet and so I was confused by your stance, but it sounds like we agree actually that it was like really a tiny step in the right direction but not really a like a a large one because they're not they're not obtaining a net new audience with this kind of credit card that what they're going after is like your crypto casuals because the dgens aren't going to use this because it requires them to keep a bunch of money on Coinbase. and they don't want to do that. They want to own their own keys, have their own infrastructure.

They're not getting the your Trafi person that doesn't care about crypto to be onboarded. You're getting like your crypto casual and the the type of user that already uses Coinbase. So, you're not actually getting any net users really from a credit card like this if you require Bitcoin to be what is purchased with the the cash back. Instead, it should should have more optionality like you should be able to get USDC back. And if you do that, then you do onboard potentially new audience because that cash back can be way higher than other cards. And then you have them in the Coinbase ecosystem. You try and onboard them to onchain stuff on base or to use your exchange, etc.

To me, yeah, it feels like they for the most part failed at using this kind of credit card mechanism to actually onboard new people into Coinbase. Um, so yeah, that's my comment on credit card stuff. Yeah, I think there's two different plays here. It's like is historically speaking, financial services has been like an aggregate business. like you want more capital on your platform, you want more customers and you can drive. It's a low margin business, but it's like high volume. That's kind of like the way Robin Hood's kind of I think approaching their strategy, not just for crypto, but financial services as a whole. And I I could be wrong here, but what I'm thinking Coinbase strategy is is they

think there's going to be a predto distribution of revenue and they're they'd rather increase the lifetime value of their power user customers, which is going to largely be cryptonatives. and they think like I guess crypto native capital is just going to I don't know be a large portion of global wealth one day like they'd rather just get more squeeze more value out of their power users the 20% power users of their platform instead of like trying to grow the overall customer base of Coinbase. Now I could be completely wrong here. Maybe they truly think have they surveyed a bunch of non-crypto natives and normies and think like yes, this is actually going to move the needle to get people that are sort of interested in crypto but have never actually allocated to move to Coinbase's platform if they

know they can get passive Bitcoin by spending on their credit card. Like I could be wrong here. I was talking to my wife about this earlier last night. I was like, "Would you ever use this credit card?" And explained to her the difference between like Robin Hood's gold card and like our Chase Sapphire Reserve we currently have and like the Bitcoin card through Coinbase. And she was like sort of interested. She's like, "Yeah, you know, this could be a nice way of like passively buying Bitcoin without thinking about it." She's like, "It's interesting, but I I don't think she'd actually want to move forward with going getting this credit card. It's part of our repertoire of other credit cards we have." I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Maybe this will actually move the needle for a lot of folks. I just don't see it. I think it

was just like such lowhanging fruit. just do something that's super familiar and you can get people on board. And my my thought on trying to tap into some crypton native yield like through morphob boost or arow boost like yes those are probably bad examples but I think my thought was get a baseline yield that is familiar with normies and if you want to get them interested in crypto start sprinkling in some cryptonative yield that is not maybe it's 0.1% in bitcoin uh so just something but making it just forcing users to get 4% of cash back in bitcoin I think was is just like not the Great move.

Yeah. Yeah. It just to me it doesn't seem like even the card itself like you mentioned earlier or in that in that statement like you know get your power users like eek a little bit more out of them. But I don't think you eek more out of your power users by giving them a credit card with 4% back. Like the people who have whatever the balance requirement is to get the max reward, they're probably paying their CC balance off in full every month and you're not earning any any interest or any revenues from offering the card. you're probably spending money for them to even have it in the first place. Um, and so like looking at Robin Hood for example and their gold card, like to me it's not surprising that maybe it's taking a long time to roll that out because they need to Yeah, I think if they gave that to

all, you know, 30 million customers or whatever, they'd run into the same trouble on that immediate go of I'm sure you have a ton of people on the platform who want to get, you know, 3% back on everything um and roll that into the other kind of benefits that they get on Hood, but the economics there probably don't make sense to just offer that up like all at once. Um, but I do like your point about wanting to get customers to do more inside of their ecosystem. I think maybe the tricky part is like they need more products to be honest like you know they're getting they've been adding things right and US pers is probably another addition there and obviously there's base chain and the Coinbase wallet and you know they've been they've

been rolling things out. Go ahead. the 4hour candles. They added that. They added they added 4hour candles. But uh like I just think when I look at the hood kind of setup, it's like you know if you transfer over your 401k or if you transfer assets from another platform like they'll give you a boost and then if you trade like or deposit a certain number of assets like you know you get interest on that from the you know the risk-free rate or their you know their cash sweep program and then you know they offer different benefits for you know maybe you get reduced fees for trading. It's like they kind of have that you know we love the word flywheel.

they kind of have a little bit of a flywheel going there and like the credit card I think is like a very small like exciting like let's maybe maybe we'll onboard some extra people but I don't think they're going to get a ton of additional revenue out of it. I think I see it more so from Wesyy's side of like this is like a little bit of a carry. Can I can I change can I ask something you mentioned Danny would you guys say that bass has been more successful than arbitrum 100%. Okay. Yeah. Are they trying to achieve the same things? I mean, one thing Arbitra is going for, it's a hyper liquid bridge. No, I'm kidding. Um, but I'm just joking. But, uh, yeah. No, I mean, bass has been like meaning. Yeah,

like I I think every single metric onchain trading volume, TVL, like bass it has quickly rose to prominence as the number one L2 in that category. So, I think like objectively speaking, you say yes. But I think where Arbitum has done well, I think Arbitum has beat optimism in terms of like growing like there's a couple like Athena is a huge win for Arbitum. If it's true, if some of the rumors are true that Robin Hood is going to be announcing a Arbitum based CH L2 like Arbitum is potentially winning on the crypto native front and potentially winning on BD if they get Robin Hood because I think that's like a big that's a huge win for them. Um, but yeah, I think Bass has been a better L2 in terms of like overall onchain activity lately.

At No, not Yes. But at their peaks, if you think about it, do you think that Arbitum No. Do you think that Bass has been more successful than Arbitum? Like considering they both launched, they both had attention for X amount of months, they both had peak activity amongst the L2 spaces for X amount of months, which one do you think has been more successful? Because to me it's not as clear-cut as saying base is more successful. I I think at some point you could even probably argue that to me arbitum defi was a lot more successful than base was. It depends what you're measuring this like what are you using to measure success and you can answer it. Uh active users.

That's a good one. I mean, we'll have to let's look at the Block Works data dashboards for that one. If only we had quality active addresses though, right? Let's do Wouldn't that be nice? I I don't have the data. I can pull up the data. And this is actually something I want to look into. I'm just like curious what you guys think because to me, not going off of data, just going off of like how I can like innovation maybe or like DeFi activity or like what was launching on arbitum versus on base. I can't really like there were a few months where maybe like six months where everything was happening on arbitr um versus I I don't really remember like to me bass was always kind of like a

sidecart and I feel like it's still kind of is like there's nothing like super innovative on bass. I'm just like because I was this I did a pod right before this and we're talking about it and Ali who works at Volantis anyway he he his argument was that like like we've kind of scoped ourselves into saying base is great but it's just like a decent L2 but it's it it never really did that well right I I think given the fact that coin b that base has coinbase the largest US-based exchange uh behind it and the fact that Arbitum just has like a

startup called offchain labs it's labs entity and arbitum you know the foundation of offshore entity behind it and the fact that arbitum has done as well it's gone toe-to-toe with bass even during like its peak days uh even today like they're pretty damn close in terms of economic activity in terms of bunch of onchain metrics like I mean kudos to the arbitum ecosystem like I also agree a lot of DeFi innovation came out of arbitum which is like a much more organic um ecosystem than I guess what Bass has been just by nature of the fact that like Bass is not as organic just because it it is a centralized exchange as L2 at the end of the day. So I think given the the lack of the difference in distribution arbitum has like killed it for sure. Yeah. I I'm not arguing by the

way uh David it's not for you but like I'm not arguing that base and arbitrum are on the same level now. I think Bass is clearly beating Arbitum, but I think we are. I think it might be a little overrated if if that makes sense. I feel like Arbitum at its peak was probably doing just as well as Bass was. Like I said, I need to look at the numbers. Currently, Bass is winning. Um, I need to look at the data from back in the day for Arbitrum, but as at least market share-wise, maybe not like raw numbers wise because the entire ecosystem has grown a lot over the past year. Um, and I know this seems kind of like a

wishy-washy argument, but I was just like I was kind of thinking about it and base, like you said, David, they have the backing of the centralized exchanges, but it seems like they don't really have a token that has gone up for longer than a month. The like two biggest memes they had were uh one just straight up rugged. Um, and then Miggles was like a whole weird thing where like they never listed it. Um, everything else just feels fetty and then and then they just like completely failed at the content creation thing.

Um, at least so far. So, I'm just like I don't know. I don't think there's been a lot of good memes out of Arbitum either. So, I don't know if that's like a great point to No, but back then it wasn't about memes. Back then it was about DeFi and Arbitum had all of like Arbitum was very very relevant in terms of primarily because of one product which was GMX and everybody building on top of GMX. So I'm not saying like it was the most unique ecosystem in the world and that it was fantastic. I'm just saying like comparatively if you think about what was happening back then and think about what's happening right what's been happening here is has bass been able to capture as much of the current narrative as

arbitral was able to capture back then of that narrative back then and I I think the state of the market is is an important factor here though right like if bass had launched at the same time as arbitum we might be having a very different conversation I think because you know we were going through the what maybe the community thought was the needful of like yeah let's push all the stuff over to the L2s now and so like there was arbitrum there was optimism some others were maybe starting to pop up but like they were live you know back during the beginning of that time where you know we thought that we or ETH you know ETH as a community or whatever ever

thought that activity needed to move to these L2s and and so it went to them the ones that were available and that were you know notable at the time. Um and so today like yeah there's 100 plus L2s now so it like it's not surprising that maybe the market share isn't playing out the same way but I don't know I I just don't know if it makes sense to compare them it doesn't make sense to compare them at all. I just I was thinking about it this morning. There's no data to back it up. I'm just like in my mind I'm wondering if we're overindexing basis success and saying, "Wow, it was the most successful L2 ever when I don't know if I would say that." Yeah, I think it's I think you totally should

look to compare them. Like I just have like the two I have like one page with like base uh block works dashboard and one with like the arbitum one and just kind of like looking at them back and forth like bass is objectively more successful from like application revenue and also rev. So if I judge it from like that point and then I think like David's point as well of like just having you know Coinbase's blessing for it is huge because like they already have massive reach and distribution. It's like kind of easy to maybe explain what it is. It's like, oh, it's like a it's a blockchain for Coinbase. It's like, how do you explain what arbitrum is? Like just kind of starting from there to anyone who like a lot of people know who Coinbase is. Not a lot, not a lot of

people know like Arbitum unless you're already like in crypto. So yeah, it's like of course it's not going to be apples to apples, but you should compare the two. I think also like we can also say like, oh, you know, Coinbase, largest centralized exchange in America, is backed it like of course they're going to succeed. But then look at Kraken, look at OKX, look at all these other L2s that are launched by very large and and buy bit with Mantle. Like no shade to any of these companies at all. But clearly it's not just simply oh run a centralized exchange and run an L2 like you'll be successful because I don't know about you guys like I haven't bridged any of those L2s or any of those chains any other any of the major centralized exchange like L2s or chains outside of BMBB finance smart chain like

have you guys bridged any of the other centralized exchange L2s? I wouldn't say so. But you've used bass, right? I use ink all the time. To be honest with you, I I can't remember the last time I transacted on base. I Which was kind of what this sparked. Like what would I even do on base? Swap between Migles and Eve. Like one of the exchange uh chains I use is actually Kronos. I use Wolf Swap. Shout out Ian. I've used Kronos before. Yep. Those were the days, man. Deep liquidity on Wolf Swap over on Kronos. Stop saying Wolf Swap. Please stop saying Wolf

keeps saying Wolf Swap is because I once swapped on Wolf Swap and I told him about it and then he's like, "Wolf Swap? I'm not surprised." Is it just the vibe though? But like I'm I'm trying to tease this out like is it a vibe thing? Like it's just like I don't want to go to bass because Jesse Pollock comes on the timeline and says like, "Hey, coin it brothers. Let's get out there and coin it." It feels like it feels like cringe. And so it's like I don't want to I don't like I'd rather go to ARB and anywhere else because it's not, you know, they're not being Okay, I'm not going on ARB. Let's not let's not go that far. I'm not [ __ ] going on Arbage. But feels like if that makes sense to you,

like using bass feels like this. I don't know there maybe comparatively but I also want to mog box take real quick of that like bass has somehow been like overhyped. It's like it's entirely relative to other L2s and it's easily if you look at history and the numbers been the most successful by REV even given that like you compare it to Arbitum where Arbitum's peak was like maybe a little less than Bass's peak of any like quarter but like Arbitrum was rocking like a dollar transaction fees at the time and Bass is rocking like less than a fraction of a penny. So like they're

getting much higher volume of transactions. So much higher usage. So you look at the numbers in the past clearly base has been the most successful L2. But then you look you really need to be forward looking though like really what these chains should be optimizing is future rev as I like to say like what are you doing so that down the line people are paying more fees. So you want like more sustainable sources but you also want more shots on goal as we like to say on zero research. Um, and right now it's pretty obvious base like the new experiments that are happening within the EVM right now are happening on base. You could argue hypervm might become the place for that, but right now it's certainly base of like all the new

stuff that people are trying in EVM land is happening on base and so they have the highest likelihood of future RED2. So to me it's like they're doing fantastic. Bob doesn't like a doesn't like a chain or a token unless they air drop him a [ __ ] No, I I don't care if another thing is Yeah, they don't have a token. One idea. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me speak with David and then Westy, you can jump in and mo me as well. David, this is one difference that I need to make very clear. If tomorrow there's a DEX that is much better than Hyperlquid that lists more markets, has more liquidity, I will start using them and I

will bull bull posting them. Just like FYI, it's not about the airdrop. Yes, I'm happy about the airdrop, but I fundamentally think that it's the best claw product out there right now. So that's before before Hyperlid, what was your favorite chain to interact on? Salana. Good take. And before that it was I do think like maybe a piece of this and I kind of I agree with Boach to an extent about the corporate angle but I think part of this is like who is their customer that they're targeting and like I I don't know that it is like the proumer that's here today that's like deep in the weeds and is like hyperlquid is the best clob

that's avail or or I'm going on this chain or that chain because of XY Y Z, you know what I mean? I think they have a lot of customers and assets on their on their existing platform and on their exchange today. And like building a base and then integrating products that they can then like earn, you know, marginal additional revenues from is probably more of the goal there. And just like enticing people on their platform who might just be normies like, you know, maybe some of the the branding and the marketing would kind of suggest and that they understand. Um getting them to use products. It's not getting like the hyperlquid bulls on the timeline, I think. Yeah. Why would you want the people who spend money and make up most of the fees on your chain? You want a thousandx, bro. Let's get the normies on

chain. I'm sorry, Danny. I'm being a dick, but I agree with that opinion. That's why I shouldn't have phrased it that way. Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean the people spending the money today, but like if if they're forward-looking and they're looking at potential future customers, then like I mean the plan like I'm going to the plan is simple. I mean I feel like this is what Robin Hood is doing these going to do the exact same things and this is like a big heap of conversation a few months ago. Gwart tweet you know like are these guys really going to come in copy all the apps in infra and then just like make more money on their customers and like say f you to DeFi basically. I mean, not necessarily FU, but you know, I think stuff like the Morpho

partnership and and things like that, like David mentioned earlier, those to me like speak to the strategy and it's like they may not necessarily always be marketing to Picacio. Yeah. Well, they should. I'm very important. Yeah. Yeah, I mean they know Picagio is married to Wolf Swap, but like I think like one kind of interesting thing that I think Robin Hood could have if they do end up launching their own chain or like they uh start sending order like customer order flow to Arbitum or Salana like or just any like EVM landscape for that example. Uh like when you look at how many people are trading memecoins on like token meme coins or whatever on

Robin Hood versus Coinbase uh like Robin Hood doesn't they don't report their volumes but if you want to look at like the amount of raw tokens on exchanges by entity on Arkham for like the last two tokens that were listed on Robin Hood there's over 21 times as many on Robin Hood versus Coinbase despite Coinbase listing those first. And granted, these tokens are Peanut the squirrel and what's the other one? Um, so like that's kind of an interesting metric and like Robin Hood might have liquidity requirements as well that we're not privy to. Um, so like they have to keep X amount of tokens on there before they can even list. And so like

they're making sure whatever market maker they're using for that whether it's like uh Cumberland or uh you know Wintermute I think are the two primary ones over there. That's pretty interesting. And so like you know if we could get the volume numbers I'd be really interested to see interested to see how many people um you know are actually trading these things versus Coinbase volumes because I've looked at this metric before like when they listed Pepe and other like kind of large call them blue chip [ __ ] and they have way more I think that's a technical term now they have like the inventory is just so much higher on Robin Hood. It's really crazy. Ian, what are your thoughts on Chill House?

Um, I mean, I had a pretty strong thesis, but last night's events might have derailed that. So, I'm going to take the weekend to chew it over and I'll get back to you, but I think it's really important that we're keeping Chill House top of mind. I would love to see a Chill House pool launched on Wolf Swap. I think that could be a major catalyst, and I'd love to see Wol Swap on base. That'd be fantastic. I think that'd be really big and that could bring Bacio over as a power user. So, actually in my paid Discord last night, I I called the chill house would be store of value uh during crisis. So, um just wanted to point that out that I saw this coming this out performance. Um let me pull up the

chart. Wait, I like legitimately have no idea what's going on house right now. Did it is it like up like 10x from the Iran or Israel attacks? Well, it's not a good amount. The Kmeni called for a fatwa against chill guy. Chill house is up 10x. I wanted I wanted to follow on to Ian's comment about volumes and uh I do think it's interesting that like you mentioned peanut. I don't know if you mentioned this stat. I don't I don't think you did. But if the numbers here are real to some extent, like I mean Peanut for example, Hood Hood's doing like 2x the

volume that that Binance is doing on Peanut spot. Like to your point, it is interesting the amount of like some blue chip [ __ ] volume relative to what other might other people might consider like tier one decks. Uh obviously probably have to compare that to onchain volumes as well, but uh the line on chill house is clear. I do think it's interesting though like their I don't know maybe relative dominance of some of these coins like retail trading of them versus other centralized exchanges.

Okay. Yeah, that's fair. Where did you see um or can you guys see Robin Hood volumes anywhere? They show it in app. In app. Okay. But it's not on like any of the I don't think there's like a I mean terminal out there but I don't think they have like an official API for it right now that you can pull but you manually checking an app just to see but yeah they did 100 million on peanut last 24 hours sounds like a block dashboard Robin Hood crypto dashboard Robin Hood if you're listening this up we'll build one for you one thing that's been pretty sad to see the number of like beta plays that have popped up on Chillhouse of like people trying to like take the idea and spin it. Um, really it's like you

can't replicate the originality of Chill House. It's just too beautiful. Chill House Patel. Dude, ZK go won't stop talking about Chill House, unironically. Um, that's not relevant. What is relevant is that I was wrong about bass, but I did get us to start talking about Chill House eventually, so it worked out. Danny, are we Yeah, we're getting a little goofy. So, uh, unless anybody has some last thoughts on Chill House or Chill House Patel or Chill House, we got Robert Chang on here.

Robert Chang would be a good guest. I' I'd tune in. Uh, yeah, we can we can close it out. Before we start closing it out though, permissionless for coming up Brooklyn like two weeks now. I don't know if you guys haven't bought tickets yet, like you should buy your tickets, but the the prices are going up, man. So, it's a good entry here. Can we pull up the If you're not going to come to permissionless, um like if you don't want to buy the ticket, you can come to the Xerox Research event. Uh there's a Luma in the Telegram chat. I might put it in. We don't do show notes on live streams.

So, if you can figure it out and sign up for it and you can message me on Twitter if you want to come um and I can approve you and it'll be fun. Don't don't come if you're like a weird dude, but if you're a regular guy or girl guy, you can come. Chill guy. That's a good pitch. Yeah, if you're a chill guy. Yeah, if you're just like a good dude. Chill house bulls. Chill house bulls are welcome. Bears obviously like do not do not show up. Do not show up. Yeah, there's a there's a link in the YouTube description. So, I don't know. You can go over there and find it, but it's not on the Twitter. So, good luck. Yeah.

Before we end it, actually, can I can we do a whip round of Yes. what everybody's do. No, not money. Of what everybody's doing on chain? Yeah. What are you doing on chain? Start it off, Boach. full swap. No, I've um what have I been doing? I've been doing Hyper EVM stuff. I'm going to check out Volantis today because I talked to Ali who um works there. They have a stake type hype AMM. Very interesting. Um but they like they build stuff on on um the Hyper EVM. So, I want to check that out.

And apart from that, I'm kind of done with [ __ ] after I bought Aura and then I sold it and then it did a 200x in 7 minutes. So, I don't think I'll I'll um I might kill myself to be honest with you. Um never kill yourself. I'm considering it. So, that's really it. There isn't that much to do. I want to try out Zex. Is that what it's called? No, Bullet. Um, I think it's only on test net and they have like 12 markets. So, I don't know what I'm going to do with that. Um, and also Kevin today mentioned to check out intern. He mentioned check out if you appro.

I'm going to check them out. Um, Kuru I've already played around with. It's also on test net so there's not much to do. But Ky Ky is pretty cool. So maybe I'll I'll see what they've kept building on there. But that's really it. There's nothing like money that I want to put money in because there's nothing really happening. If you've noticed, we've talked about this, but so that's why I'm kind of trying to source ideas. I like it. I think I do think Gizzy's cool. I like the shout out there. I think it's interesting. I want to see that on mainet. I want to put actual dollars in. I mean, we kind of talked about that, too, with with him saying like, you know, it's kind of for funsies right now. So, I would like to see it for realies, uh, if you feel me. I want

to put some money into that and gamble on influencers. But uh I would say like one of the few things I've been doing is I' actually been playing with the pump on mobile app mostly because I'm surprised that like they're not more vocal about what they're shipping given like the other kind of you know rumors circulating around the token sale and stuff like that. I figured they'd be maybe more out and about with it. But you know I guess it's in some of the updates are in beta. But they have like a news tab. They've got I don't know they've got different like better token curation than they've ever had in the past like on on the website. Um they've got the live streams like incorporated into the mobile app and you can have like group chats and stuff in there. So I don't know. I I was surprised I

tweeted about this but like they've been kind of like building out this like broader like social and like news and token and discovery kind of platform. So I've been messing around with it. I think it's cool. the the little news clippets are interesting. Like when Aura went up 200x in one candle and I missed it because I also sold uh at the at the bottom uh they dropped a little news piece on it like you know people are speculating like why is it up etc etc. It's interesting. I don't know. Check it out.

Very good. Westy Ian David. What am I doing on Shane? um trading silly tokens, particularly Chill House on Wolf Swap as a store of value during crisis in the Middle East. This is my favorite tweet. I'm going to pull it up. That's brave. That's bold. Wait, it's actually not PC. I can't pull it up. That's a good one. Wesy, I assume you're not doing much on chain, which is why like you're probably just doing meme coins on Soul, right? Yeah, I've just been trading like Launchcoin and maybe a couple believe coins here and there, but to be honest, yeah, not that much. Are you using any fun apps to trade or is it just like Phantom Wallet

Homie? I've been using Axiom just in the off chance that there's a an airdrop good UX. It's good. It's good. You approve? Just trying to make the conversation flow. It's my job. I approve. Ian, what are you doing? You're next. Yeah, more or less the same. Um, but I just had a video, so anyone out there like a fire dancer fork for chill house.

Chill house chain. Chill chill house chain. It could be a good one. So, if you're a serious builder, that's what you should do. But yeah, I'm definitely excited for like a Monad Testnet 2. I think that'll be that'll be cool. So, I'm happy to get Kevin on today. Gonna check out some of those apps as well. Um, but yeah, there's not too many other like primitives. I'm still waiting for just like kind of basic crypto games, like some fun stuff that like isn't as PvP. Um, but yeah, something new would be great.

You got some good naming opportunities like Chill Dancer, Firehouse. Those kind of slap. I can't lie. I would use Firehouse. All right, Danny, head of marketing. We'll ship it. All right, David, what have you been doing on chain? I know you've been doing things offchain. Yeah. So, one thing, yeah, it's not directly onchain, but Shakra Labs, um, they're kind of like a grass competitor. It's founded by Zerx Nermal, who's like a one of the exfounding engineers of Artemis. he launched like a data scraping or like a data AI company. They launched um this Google Chrome extension called Scout I believe. Um highly recommend everyone

download that and it's pretty much starting to scrape different web pages you join. There's like a points system going on. So that's one thing that again it's not directly onchain but I sure that there's going to be something some kind of onchain product eventually. So, just been messing around with that. And then, uh, really the only thing I'm doing on chain right now outside buying some buying commamino right now. I'm pretty long Camino. Uh, and I wrote like I guess my like high level thesis the other day on Twitter. Um, I'm in the world coin world chain trenches. So, yeah. What's up, P? Well, no. Shill your 300k market cap [ __ ] It's it's actually it went down to $6,000 market

cap. So, um, but you don't stop stop. There's 3,000 people on here, but do not chill at I'm not showing it. I'm not showing it. I'm not even going to bring up the ticker, but uh, Puff is like this is a it's like probably the largest launchpad on WorldChain, which isn't saying much because there really isn't a lot of launchpads yet, and WorldChain is still a pretty like nent ecosystem. But, um, I am just buying some shredders on there. I do think World Chain is probably the most underlooked or underrated future ecosystem that everyone's kind of like short on. And um I'm not going to bet against Sam Alman.

I'm not going to bet against WorldChain. Um so I've been kind of messing around with Puff Launchpad and I'm actually been like having some conversations with the team on that. They seem like relatively crack team. Um and outside that I'm really not doing anything. Um just buying some tokens I think are undervalued. That's good. I Buck, you were gonna ask me something and then I was Was it Ted Camino or was it something else? No, I don't want to ask you anything. Okay, he's tapped out. I think I think we're all tapped out for today. It was good, gentlemen. Thank you all for coming on. Yes, Boach. Let's have a great weekend, everybody. Have a great weekend. Let's have a great weekend, everyone. Have a chill house vibe

weekend. Get out there. Maybe touch some grass. I don't know. That would be cool. Maybe the Middle East can touch some grass as well. That might be a nice idea over there. Um other than touching buttons, we should keep them away from the buttons this weekend. Um but yeah, we'll call it there. Great topics. Great to have everyone on today. Yeah, I need the Middle East. Never kill yourself. Chill out every chill house. Yep. Are we doing the Yeah. You want to do the fun part? Let's do the fun part. Yeah. But can you put the Sydney Sweeney one on where she's crying because I'm speaking in the background? Do you know? Do you have the Sydney Sweeney one?

Yeah, but I don't have it uploaded. Oh, I'm Hold. Here we are. There we go. Guys, next stream we're going to put a picture in that hole. So, if you want your picture in the hole, like and subscribe and comment and say chill house and we'll put you in the little hole and you can you can say whatever you want, man. You can chill. This is some chill house music as well. So movie. We're going to put I mean, somebody's going in the hole for sure, but it might be it might be Boach. I don't know.

[Music] You know, the buttons aren't clickable. Yeah, it works on YouTube, though. I think. I don't know. That's a producer thing, man. You're talking to the wrong guy. We We can yell at the producer. Yeah, yell at the producer. We'll figure it out. Thanks for watching today, guys. We'll be back next week. Hopefully, it's a little more chill and maybe some more fun things to do on chain pop up for us. You know, ping us with your favorite app that we need to try out if we didn't talk about it.

We will see you next time. [Music]